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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Nix the cayenne ... ("-S")
  No worries about Brett infections any longer ! ("-S")
  Re : Optimator Clone (FRASERJ)
  new beer (Marc Sedam)
  Oak Barrel Aged Beer (Joe Yoder)
  Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer ("Ryan Roecker")
  Good Beer in Bucks County, Pensylvania (Matt Gavin-Wear)
  small sugar nit (Alan Meeker)
  RE: oak-aged beers (Brew Wisconsin)
  Victory Whirlwind Wit ("Bill Lucas")
  Oaky wine, Oz Rules ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Oak Barrel Aged Beer (asemok)
  veggies & assorted stuffage ("Jay Spies")
  Re: Oak Barrel Aged Beer (Nathan J. Williams)
  Oak Barrel Aged Beer ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Oak Barrel Aged Beer (Robert Marshall)
  Lagering Questions ("Dave Larsen")
  Fat Tire...really? (US - Seattle)" <ntempleton at deloitte.com>
  RE: McDonald's and chile beer (Brian Lundeen)
  Brew a Classic American Pilsner for American Beer Month! (Jeff Renner)
  Re: sugars and honey info (David Edge)
  Honey Info and enzymes ("Dennis Lewis")
  $15.00 Turkey Fryer Sale! (Ryan Neily)
  more on peppers and cascades (Jeff & Ellen)
  Drip Tray for Sale/Trade? (Ryan Neily)


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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:05:03 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Nix the cayenne ...

Michael Hartsoc writes ...

>I will take
>up the mission of justifying the pepper beer without
>succumbing to an off-topic discussion

Sincere thanks Michael !

> My jalapeno beer is well balanced.  I soaked the
>peppers (three total) in water just off the boil in a
>covered pot for 15 minutes.  I discarded the water and
>added the few peppers to the secondary.  The result is
>a beer without even a hint of heat, but I nice pepper
>flavor that is balanced against a muted amber ale with
>low hopping rates and a nice, dry backbone.

There seems to be a trend here that the balance level
occurs well below the point were 'heat' is perceived.
This is unlike nearly all the pepper beers I've sampled.

===

I tried an experiment of my own, after some encouraging words from others
who suggested very small doses of peppers - below 'heat' levels:

I took 1/4 tsp of dried cayenne and mixed this w/ 50ml of Spaten lager.   Of
course I didn't drink this potent chili mix, I used it to dose other beer
samples.   Specifically, Spaten Lager, Guinness stout and a 12.5P HB IPA
with a good bit of hop aroma.

Spaten's lager is a fine malt vs bitter balanced pils with a good touch of
sweetness, very little hop aroma and bit of diacetyl - not altogether
uncommon for a S.German  light lager.When I added about 0.6% v/v of the
cayenne mix to Spaten the beer took on a slight pungent sensation on the
tongue but no heat.   The malty tone changed considerably and IMO not for
the better.  The malt flavor seemed more flat and tinny to me.    This
impact became stronger as the level was bumped to 1.5% v/v.   At 2% or maybe
2.5% the heat of the cayenne became noticeable as a harsh tickling in the
throat, which was decidedly uncomplimentary to the beers other flavors.
Also at the 2% level the 'paprika' aroma became apparent and that wasn't a
good thing at all.

I assume we are all aware of Guinness Stout, dark roasted flavor dominating,
dry  with a little acetic bite in the background and no hop flavor apparent,
light body, big head, shockingly smooth mouthfeel.   Dosed  at 0.5% v/v the
beer changed considerable.   The roast flavor appeared more harsh and burnt
than usual and the little acetic sharpness in the beer become a longer sour
aftertaste.    The smooth mouthfeel sensation was quite disrupted by the
slight pungent sensation on the tongue.   I must say I liked the extra
sourness, but not the harsh roast effect or the lesser mouthfeel.   The
impact increased until again around 2% the tickle in the throat make the
drink repulsive.  Even at 3%v/v the 'paprika' aroma was not detected over
the typical Guinness aroma.

The HB IPA started life at 12.P, and around 78% fermentability with a good
dose of EKG and Fuggles, and a modest level of dry hopping.   This beer was
about 2.5 months old at the time of testing but aside from fading hops
tasted great.   The cayenne mix had a different impact on this beer.   At
even 0.3% to 0.6% v/v I'd have to say the impact on malt flavor wasn't bad.
Not tinny, and no extra harshness, maybe a little drier/toastier.   Yet at
these levels there was a minor added flavor that was hard to identify - sort
of chemical or maybe a phosphate taste.   At larger doses  ~1+% the odd
flavor became a little more apparent as a soapy flavor which was interfering
with hops aroma and malt flavor perception.   Note this flavor didn't appear
in the untainted sample.   Again at just under 2% the harsh tickle and the
paprika aroma appears sending the sample to the sink.

At very low doses for each of these beer (<0.3%v/v) I must say there was a
pleasant tingle on the tongue which didn't disrupt malt flavors too badly
and no off or overly odd flavors were introduced at this low level.   Still
I compared these to the untainted samples and it was clear that something
was lost, usually some maltiness, in each case.

I still feel justified in opining aloud - just why are you guys ruining good
beer with pepper additions ?

- --------

The flavor of jalapenos isn't very similar to cayenne or other ripe chilis
leaving the heat aside for the moment.   Maybe I'll try this again with a
jalapeno mix as per Michaels instructions (tho' I think jalapenos are more
bitter than many other peppers).

 -S




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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:13:20 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: No worries about Brett infections any longer !

Chad S says,

> It is my understanding that in 1996 the genus Brettanomyces was replaced
by
>Dekkera:

It seems very likely from what I see.  Many journals have used Brett/Dekkera
as synonymous for years and some of the free databases no longer list
Brettanomyces.   You need access to international classification database to
be certain - but that's a pay-service.  Here is a primary reference article
I've found, fwiw.

Hoeben, P., and G.D. Clark-Walker. An approach to yeast classification by
mapping mitochondrial DNA from Dekkera/ Brettanomyces and Eeniella
genera. Curr. Genet. 10:371-379 (1986).

 -S




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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 06:53:35 -0400
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Re : Optimator Clone

Does anyone have the all grain version of the recipe below....what about
lagering conditions & times?

   Glenn M Gardener wrote....
   Heat 1/2 gallon of water to 160.  Add:
   18 oz. Belgian Cara-Munich Malt
   1 oz. British Chocolate Malt
   In another pot, heat 1 gallon of water to 160.  Add:
   24 oz. German Munich Malt
   4 oz. Belgian Aromatic Malt
   Remove pots from heat source and steep for 30 minutes.  Sparge the
   grains
   with 1 gallon
   of 150 degree water.  Bring the water to a boil, remove from heat source
   and add:
   5.5 lbs. M&F Extra Light Dry Malt Extract
   3.5 lbs Bierkeller Light Malt extract Syrup
   8 oz. Malto Dextrin
   2 oz. Tettnanger  at 3.9%AA bittering
   Add water to make up 3.5 gallons.  Boil for 45 minutes then add:
   1 tsp. Irish Moss
   Boil for 15 minutes.  Remove the pot from the heat source and chill the
   wort for
   20 minutes.  Transfer to the primary fermenter and add cool water to
   bring up to
   5 1/8 gallons.  When wort temp is below 80 degress pitch the yeast.
   1st choice:  Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager.  Ferment at 47-52 degrees for 4
   weeks then
   at 57-62 degrees for the remainder of fermentation.
   2nd choice:  Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager.  Ferment at 47-52 degrees.
   Transfer to secondary fermenter after 7 days or fermentation slows.
   Pitch a second
   batch of the same yeast used above 3 days before bottling.  Bottle when
   fermentation
   is complete, approximately 5 weeks.
   Prime with 1 1/4 cups M&F Wheat Dry Malt Extract that has been boiled
   for
   10
   minutes in 2 cups of water.
   Let prime at 70 degrees for approximately 3 weeks, then store at cellar
   temperature.
   OG: 1.077 - 1.079
   FG: 1.021 - 1.022
   ABV: 7.2%

John M. Fraser





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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:26:10 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: new beer

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm thinking about making an 
all-Cascade hopped beer with about six hot peppers in it.  I bet that 
will taste GREAT!  Any thoughts?

- -- 

Marc "Tongue Planted So Firmly in Cheek it Hurts!" Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:48:00 -0500
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: Oak Barrel Aged Beer

Garry Wallace asked about aging beer in oak barrels.  He was talking 
about using wine barrels, my experience (limited) has been with a 
bourbon barrel.  The Lawrence (KS) Brewers Guild brewed several batches 
of stout during Big Brew to be aged in a bourbon barrel.  I tested the 
gravity and had a taste this weekend.  It has been in the barrel a 
couple of weeks.  When I purchased the barrel it hadn't been cleaned and 
had a strong smell of Bourbon.  Figuring that no contaminants could live 
in bourbon, I did nothing to sanitize the barrel, just siphoned the week 
old beer into it.  At this point, the beer has a s.g. of 1.010 and 
tastes smooth and clean with a slight bourbon flavor.  I am thinking 
that after a month in the barrel, it should have quite a bit more 
flavor.  Brew Your Own magazine had an article last month about using 
oak barrels in brewing, this might be helpful as well.  We had the idea 
before seeing the article but it was helpful to see what others have done.
cheers,
Joe Yoder
Lawrence Brewers Guild
Lawrence, KS



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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:46:26 -0500
From: "Ryan Roecker" <rroecker at swri.edu>
Subject: Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer

Ant Hayes considers the post by "-S" a "well thought out approach to the
subject." Just because someone is WORDY and PRETENTIOUS does not make his
post well thought out. The reason some of the criticisms of his posts are
not well thought out is because he has basically offending anyone who has
tried making chili by saying it was "...just another sidetrack toward
childish one-dimensional awkward flavor in beer." He also implied anyone
liking chili beer has a simple palate.

Have some frickin' imagination -S. Yes, I've brewed a chili beer. I added a
handful of dried Szechuan chili peppers to the secondary of a very lightly
hopped pale ale. It had a slight pepper taste and a bit of a warming of the
throat. It's not a beer I would drink a lot of, but it was an interesting
experiment to me and to my friends who tried it.

He also asked in a previous post why anyone would want to brew a high
alcohol beer. Why not? Again, have some imagination and don't be so narrow
minded. To begin with, it's just interesting to see how far you can push
things.

The only thing I can think of to explain these comments by -S is Trolling.
Why else would -S use the verbiage he does. You can argue against something
without resorting to putting people down.

Maybe, for my next batch I'll brew a high-alcohol chili beer; maybe -S can
call me a name now.


Ryan Roecker



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Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:10:26 +1000
From: Matt Gavin-Wear <brewboy at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Good Beer in Bucks County, Pensylvania

G'Day All,

My Brother-in-Law is currently on business in Dublin, Bucks County, 
Pensylvania (about 100km north west of Philadelphia?). I would like 
to be able to give him some information on any good brewpubs or 
microbreweries that he may be able to visit.

Does anybody know of a place nearby where he may be able to get a good beer.

He says that he has tried some good beers there, but so far they have 
all been English. Although I don't think this is a major problem (I'm 
originally from England) I have been telling him that the USA is a 
world leader in microbreweries and there must be some excellent beer 
nearby.

If somebody could give me some details of where he should go I'd be 
most grateful.

Many thanks,

Matt Gavin-Wear





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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:07:39 -0400
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: small sugar nit

Just a short note regarding sugar terminology. Dextrose refers to a
particular /conformation/ of glucose, namely the optical isomer that rotates
plane polarized light to the right ("d", or dextro-rotary). Incidentally,
"invert sugar" gets its peculiar name from the fact that after hydrolysis of
a sucrose (disaccharide) solution to its monosaccharide components the
solution changes the direction in which it rotates polarized light. Thus the
name "invertase" for the yeast enzyme that hydrolyzes sucrose.

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD

"Like leaves we touch..."




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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:48:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brew Wisconsin <brewwisconsin at yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: oak-aged beers

On Sat, 17 May 2003 15:53:12 +1000 "Garry Wallace"
<garrywallace at netc.net.au> wrote:

> Subject: Oak Barrel Aged Beer
>
> At the recent Australian International Beer Awards a
> highly credentialed New
> Zealand brewer mentioned that a future pathway for
> brewing experimentation
> would be to age beer in old oak wine casks.  He
> advocated a quick clean out
> with water and a sterilization with a bottle of
> brandy.  Then in goes your
> beer.  The potential results could be delicious but
> the process sounds iffy.
> Given that the brewing revolution seems to be years
> ahead in North America
> and Europe, could anyone from there give me (in the
> Land Down Under) some
> advice or anecdotes on this idea?

Here in the States, a number of brewers in the Midwest
(but also other parts of the country) have aged a
variety of beers in Bourbon and other kinds of whiskey
barrels with good results.  These have ranged from
Imperial Stouts and Barleywines down to light bodied
session ales.  Several of these are inevitably
featured at our local craft brewers' festival, the
Great Taste of the Midwest (sorry folks, tickets sold
out this year in ten days), to great fanfare.  Last
year at the Great American Beer Festival, the
wood-aged category was taken out of the "experimental"
category and given its own category it has become so
popular (and they were a great pleasure to evaluate!)

The key here is proper aging/maturation.  Although
some will disagree, I find that the ones that have
been served early are close to undrinkable--you get
mostly the whiskey flavour on top of the beer and it's
simply overdone.  The beer needs time for the flavours
to mellow out, blend, and gain complexity.  Oaky,
vanilla, and some smoky notes are common.  Big beers
are the most common ones to benefit from this kind of
aging, but one of our Wisconsin breweries (Pioneer)
did both their stout and their "cream" ale in whiskey
barrels and the session beer was the one I found the
more intriguing.  One would think that the oak would
overpower the beer, but it was a very well-balanced
and complex product.

One of the Chicagoland brewers, Todd Ashman of
Flossmoor Station, is a "serial barrel brewer" who has
had some great results.  Pete Crowley of Rock Bottom
Chicago has also brewed/aged an award-winning
barrel-aged beer.  Either of them could enlighten the
group on this topic much more than I can.  I can't
think of any at the moment who have used wine casks,
although I think Dan Carey of New Glarus is
contemplating something.

=====
Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino
Columnist, Great Lakes Brewing News
Member, North American Guild of Beer Writers
 Winner: 2001--Culture Feature (Gold),
         2000--Travel Feature (Silver)
***Sometimes alcohol and driving do go together--
 my car consumes more alcohol than I do.*** 
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/afv/ethanol.html ***



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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:17:19 -0400
From: "Bill Lucas" <Homebrew42 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Victory Whirlwind Wit

Hello All,

I have heard that the yeast in Victory's Whirlwind Wit is the same that is
used to brew Golden Monkey.  Does anyone know if these yeasts are the
same?  If so has anyone cultured and made a beer using this yeast; did it
come out like expected?

Any information would be appreciated.  I wouldn't mind trying my hand at
bottle culturing and this seemed like a perfect candidate for me.

Thanks for any information.

Have fun,

Bill Lucas
State College PA


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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:57:13 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Oaky wine, Oz Rules

Brewsters:

Garry Wallace in Oz asks for advice in using old wine casks for beer storage.

Historically, a beer barrel and a wine barrel are diferent in construction,
wall thicknesswise, need to contain pressure and the oak used.  Most
importantly, however, is the effort the beer makers went to to make sure the
beer <never> touched the wood.  Thus, the idea that beer somehow absorbed
delicious flavors from the barrel is a mythical idea.

Most often the barrel was coated inside with molten pitch and on return to the
brewery, stripped and recoated with hot molten pitch to ensure this source of
contamination was expunged from the beer delivery process.

Perhaps more importantly a commercial barrel of beer was designed to be
consumed in about 5 days from broaching or else spoilage set in.

Forget the idea that a bottle of brandy in the barrel will sanitize it. Won't
happen as there are many crevices into which many different bacteria can hide.
Instead, drink a shot of the brandy followed by a beer.  Called a "French
boilermaker" in the US.

OK, so how do you get what you imagine will be a delicious woody flavor to
your beer without spoiling it?  Use oak chips ( often contaminated with
lactobacilli) commonly used in winemaking, place them in a small bowl and this
bowl into a pressure cooker.  Sterilize at 15 psi steam for 15 minutes.  Put
these chips and any condensate in the bowl into your beer. About 4 ounces per
5 gallons is a good starting place. I suggest you wrap your chips in
cheesecloth tied into a bag before you sterilize them, so you can easily
remove them.  A few marbles in the bag will sink the chips.

Good Luck and let us know.

- ----------------------
Mark, I always thought Outback's Motto of "No Rules..."  was how a Sheila
would pick out her husband's telly programs .... if she could.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:12:55 -0400
From: asemok at mac.com
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Aged Beer

On Sat, 17 May 2003 15:53:12 +1000, "Garry Wallace" <garrywallace at netc.net.au>:
>...a future pathway for brewing experimentation
>would be to age beer in old oak... the brewing revolution seems to 
>be years ahead in North America...
=========

The late, great Ballantine Brewery in Newark NJ did this for many 
years going back to the 1930's (and probably pre-prohibition).  Its 
glorious and much missed classic Ballantine IPA  (0.G. 1.075, 
70+IBU's) was aged in wood for one year prior to bottling (they also 
similarly brewed and aged a "Brown Stout" which I'm too young to have 
ever had..., but I  was introduced to the IPA in the late 1960's and 
remained a fan into the 80's).  Another of thier brews, Ballantine 
Burton Ale (actually a barleywine) spent between 10 to 20 years in 
wood before bottling.  The last bottling was around 1964, of a brew 
made in 1946.

The time spent "in the wood" definitely imparted an oak character to 
the beer (despite the claims of some that the vessels were waxed or 
pitched;  that could be true, but quite a bit of oak manifested 
itself in the flavor in any case)   ...some argue that such a 
character is inappropriate to the style, and yet no brewery big or 
small has yet been able  to produce  anything that matches the 
flavor, aroma, bitterness, and complexity of the classic Ballantine 
IPA (even though the Newark brewery closed in the early 70's, it was 
good and true to its reputation until around 1980, then continually 
watered down and shortcutted after that and by the mid 1980's was a 
lame imposter.  A few years later, it was gone altogether).  After 
experiencing this one, everything else calling itself IPA has been a 
disappointment.

Anyway, seems to me like the brewing revolution started a LOT sooner 
than anyone wants to admit.  Ballantine IPA was probably the top of 
the heap,  but I can recall a good number of beers pre-1975 that 
would stand up to (or even surpass) much of what is being made today. 
The craft and pub-brewing industries have produced some great beers, 
but let's admit it...they have produced just as much drek as well.

In July, I'll celebrate my 32nd year of homebrewing.  The last 15 (at 
least) I've spent trying to capture the intensity of the original 
Ballantine IPA...making enough of it to age for the full year has 
been one of the keys...that year of aging is definitely crucial and 
probably one of the reasons that no commercial brewery since then has 
been successful at producing anything similar)...but  it's that 
"oaky" part of it that is hardest to nail.  If overdone, it can 
admittedly be pretty cloying. But caught just right, it mitigates and 
compliments the intense bitterness.  I'll keep trying.

I hope my admittedly overly opinionated rant wasn't too annoying to 
y'all...back to lurk mode for me!!!
I enjoy being here and am still learning!
cheers,
AL


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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:14:40 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: veggies & assorted stuffage

All -

Been reading with curiosity the recent thread on what to add/not add to a
beer...

IMHO, homebrewing is a hobby based largely on experimentation, adaptation,
and seat-of-the-pants intuition.  Bear in mind that I fall squarely on the
art side of the art-science continuum, but hell, if someone makes a beer
they like, I say drink up, regardless of what it has in it.

If someone makes a beer with ingredients I consider improper or
objectionable, I have one solution.  I don't drink it.  If they live
somewhere else, like 99.9% of the people on the HBD, I have even less of an
objection.  Actually, I have none.  If people want to expand their brewing
horizons by tossing in garden leftovers or steak and eggs or live chickens,
I say experiment away!  Chile peppers, pumpkins, watermelons, marshmallows,
whatever......

Hell, I'm still trying to find a way to make an Old Bay Beer (those in the
Maryland area will know what I'm talkin bout...)  Nuttin like beer and
steamed crabs, hon!

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: 19 May 2003 12:27:12 -0400
From: nathanw at MIT.EDU (Nathan J. Williams)
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Aged Beer


Garry Wallace inquires about aging beer in oak casks.

For some time (I believe about two years), the Old Dominion Brewing
Co. in Ashburn, Virginia has been making a stout that is aged in
barrels previously used for aging bourbon. It is a fine beer, and
picks up many interesting flavors from the barrel. Unfortunately, it
is only avaliable at their brewpub, so I make sure to pick up a
growler whenever I visit the area.

Googling for "old dominion oak barrel" will find many positive
reviews, although it is not listed on the brewery's own web page.

Nathan Williams
Cambridge, MA


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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:09:45 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Oak Barrel Aged Beer

Garry Wallace asks about Oak Barrel Aged Beer

"...a highly credentialed New Zealand brewer...advocated a quick clean out
with water and a sterilization with a bottle of brandy.  Then in goes your
beer"

I don't know why you would change the process of cleaning and sterilizing
from that used by winemakers.  The clean out is anything but a quick one
with water--they use 180F water under good pressure to scour the interior.
Then the barrel is often sterilized by burning a sulfur strip.  The H2S odor
dissipates eventually, but I suppose a good soak with idophor or similar
liquid sanitizing agent would work ok with oak.  

An alternative used by some wineries, that would work with beer, is to make
a sodium metabisulfite and Citric Acid solution.  This can be used to both
clean and sanitize the barrel (the barrel is stored with the solution in it,
refreshing periodically until the barrel is needed, and I think at least 2
days is required for use) In a 50 gallon barrel, you make a solution of 1
1/2 cups Sodium Metabisulite in 1 gallon water (460g/3.8l), adding it to the
barrel.  Then you add a citric acid solution, 1 cup in 1 gallon of water
(230g/3.8l).  Mix the two by rolling the barrel, then fill completely with
cold water and pop in the bung.  BTW, sodium metabisulfite can be used for
cleaning/sterilizing the barrel (cheaper), but they usually use potassium
metabisulfite for must (juice) additions. Obviously, you need to rinse
several times with water before using.

If you've been watching the Bachelor on TV, you might be interested to know
that Firestone Brewing uses oak barrels as fermenters in a process that's
roughly based on the Burton-Union system.  ;^)

The key would be to use a barrel that never saw red wine, I would think, and
probably one with a light to medium toast.  A chardonnay barrel, perhaps.
Once a winery discards the barrel, there's not so much oak character
anymore, so I don't think you'd get a huge oak effect, especially for the
relatively short beer fermentation and maturation.

Barrels aren't the easiest things to live with, though.  They need to be
kept in an area of relatively high humidity.

Regards,
Mike Sharp







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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:11:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com>
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Aged Beer

Hi Garry,

What goes around, comes around again!!

Barrel aging has actually been going on for some time.
Here in the United States you have to simply look at
Budweiser as an example. (I said LOOK at it. You don't
have to drink it!!!). They used Beechwood to age their
beer. Nowadays, rather than use barrels, they chuck
beechwood strips into the stainless steel storage
tanks and let the beer sit on those for a while. 

Locally, Pacific Coast Brewing Co. (Oakland, Calif.)
has been using Oakmore in their GABF award-winning
Blue Whale Ale and Code Blue Barley Wine brews for
years. For those that don't know, Oakmore is shreaded
oak wood like you'd use in an oak barrel. It adds a
toasty flavor that's hard to describe to the beer.

And as for Europe? Well, considering they have been
brewing for hundreds of years, chances are they've
aged a few pints here or there in wood <grin>.

Rather than experiment with barrels, I'd suggest using
Oakmore, or some other product like it. Its far easier
to control the level of oak in your secondary, plus
you don't have to worry about evaporation through the
barrel walls that breweries/wineries do on a constant
basis.

Good luck!!

Robert
- ---------------

> Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:53:12 +1000
> From: "Garry Wallace" <garrywallace at netc.net.au>
> Subject: Oak Barrel Aged Beer
> 
> Dear Janitor,
> At the recent Australian International Beer Awards a
> highly credentialed New
> Zealand brewer mentioned that a future pathway for
> brewing experimentation
> would be to age beer in old oak wine casks.  He
> advocated a quick clean out
> with water and a sterilization with a bottle of
> brandy.  Then in goes your
> beer.  The potential results could be delicious but
> the process sounds iffy.
> Given that the brewing revolution seems to be years
> ahead in North America
> and Europe, could anyone from there give me (in the
> Land Down Under) some
> advice or anecdotes on this idea?



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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:15:18 +0000
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Lagering Questions

I'm trying to plan out the batches I'm going to do for the rest of the year. 
  I know it is some months away yet since we are barely at the beginning of 
the summer, but one of the things I want to try when the weather cools off 
(say in October) is my first Lager.   I've been doing some reading on the 
subject, and I've got a couple of questions.

First, what should I do for my first lager?  Anybody have a good all-grain 
recipe?  I would like something pretty simple -- something that is not 
problematic.

Second, I'm not sure how and when to do a Diacetyl rest.  I know it is at 
the end of the primary ferment, but is there something I should look for to 
trigger when I should warm up the fermentor?  How warm should I bring it to? 
  How long should I do it for?  Then I go directly to lagering?

Third, even though my new son of fermentation chiller can supposedly get 
cold enough to do the primary ferment, the only thing that I have that is 
cold enough to lager close to freezing temps is my serving fridge.  It is 
not temperature controlled to a fine degree (in other words I do not have 
one of those funky eternal thermostats).  Also, it is only big enough to 
hold two corny kegs.  Can I lager in a corny keg?  What about sediment?  
Will I have to rack it off of one corny into another or can I lager and 
serve out of the same keg?

That is all I have for now.  I'm sure I will have more questions as I get 
closer to doing it.

Dave
Tucson, AZ



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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:59:08 -0400
From: "Templeton, Nic (US - Seattle)" <ntempleton at deloitte.com>
Subject: Fat Tire...really?

Friday the 16th, everyone's favorite Zymurgy Editor sent a teaser about a
soon coming clone recipe of Fat Tire.  In it he described, "Fat Tire also
rated high in the Zymurgy survey of the Best Beers in America".

Really?  

I mean, it's not bad, but I wouldn't call it good either.  I'd take one
before a bud, but I'd take a diet coke before a bud as well.  Don't get me
wrong, buy/brew what you like, and if that's it, more power too you.  I'd
even try a fellow homebrew's clone - and probably like it too.  

But a best beer in a Zymurgy poll?  Maybe if it was Entertainment Weekly or
Playboy.  In Zymurgy I'd expect to see Hackor Pischor, Rochfort, Goose
Island, Fuller's ESB.  Fat Tire as a honorable mention at best.

Oh well, shows what I know, I suppose.  I'll go hide under my rock.


sorry about the crap at the end of this email, 
work adds it, I can't do anything about it.
- --------------------------------------------
Nic Templeton - Seattle WA
Hotel - Tango - Hotel
 

This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information
intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law.  If
you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message.  Any
disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any
action based on it, is strictly prohibited.


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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:32:34 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: McDonald's and chile beer

Chad Stevens writes:

Tisk tisk Steven.  You mean to tell me you've never sat down and enjoyed 
MickyD's salty catsup juxtaposed by the exquisite sourness of their pickle 
in a fresh, plain Quarter Pounder?  Granted, it's absurd, but I just love 
that particular flavor combination.  My mouth is watering just thinking of 
this beautifully crafted, well balanced work of art. 

Chad, in keeping with the spirit of the HBD of late, I shall have to
disagree with you. The Quarter Pounder is far from balanced, for the
following reasons.

McDonald's ingredients can be broken up into 3 major groups:

Flavour positive: Indeed ketchup and pickle slices fall into this category,
as do those wonderful little reconstituted bits of onion-like material,
special sauce, tartar sauce, etc

Flavour neutral: Any of their bread products, the cheese shingles, chicken
or fish pucks, and of course, their own specially grown albino lettuce

Flavour negative: There is only one of course, and that is that mysterious
ingredient found only at McDonald's and Wendy's that we know as Befe(tm).
Befe(tm) is a black hole of flavour. It's lack of flavour is so powerful
that it will actually suck flavour out of other ingredients, thus preventing
them from fully registering on your taste buds. 

Now, the ideal McDonald's creation is overall flavour neutral, or at most,
slightly flavour positive. Anything remotely tasteful just will not fly. Rib
O'Pork bears sad testament to this fact. 

So, while the Quarter Pounder does have all those wonderful flavour positive
contributions, it quite simply has too much Befe(tm) and the result is an
overall flavour negative experience that will have you reaching in
desperation for a glass of water or Coors Light to bring some gustatory
stimulation back to your poor abused palate.

The ideal McDonald's creation is the simple, humble cheeseburger. Just
enough Befe(tm) (I guess no more than 1/16th of a pound) to keep the flavour
positive ingredients from causing sensory overload.

ObBeer: A couple of recent threads have inspired my next "beer that I shall
make but probably never drink" to keep company with my spiced Belgian strong
dark ale that I call "Death by Allspice".

It will be a Chipotle Doppelbock dry-hopped with Cascade. You should all
know the moment when I first sample this creaton. You will feel a
disturbance in the Force, as if billions of taste buds were suddenly wiped
out of existence.

Happy Victoria Day!!!

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg, somewhere north and west of that Renner chap
 



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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:59:42 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Brew a Classic American Pilsner for American Beer Month!

Brewers

I just posted this to the AoB's Brewers' Forum for professional 
brewers, but it seemed worthwhile cross-posting here.  You might want 
to lobby your local brewpub or micro to brew a CAP or CACA for July.

Jeff

===============

There is just about time to brew that most American of beers for 
July's American Beer Month.  I mean, of course, a pre-prohibition 
American lager, more specifically, a Classic American Pilsner. If you 
aren't set up for lagers, you can brew the ale analog, a Classic 
American Cream Ale.

While this style was the ancestor of all mainstream lagers of today 
and used corn or rice, you shouldn't hold that against it.  Properly 
made in the style of the golden age of American lagers (George Fix's 
term for the late 19th Century), this beer can hold its own against 
any classic style.

Fred Scheer of Bosco's in Nashville made one two years ago for 
American Beer Month and I understand it sold out more quickly than 
any other beer has.  (This year he's brewing a version or PBR). 
George Fix told me that test batches brewed for an Arlington brewpub 
were very popular, even with "beer snobs" (until they found out they 
had corn!).  Stephen Hale of Schlafly's in St. Louis brewed 14 bbls 
this spring.  They tapped it at the first of the opening parties for 
their new Bottleworks on April 7th and were out of it within a week.

It is essentially what German born and/or trained US brewers brewed 
100 years ago in the style they learned in the old country, but using 
available US ingredients.  Most notably this means six-row barley 
malt, corn or rice to dilute the high soluble protein levels of the 
six-row malt, and domestic hops, which were of the Cluster type. 
Imported hops were often used in premium beers, especially for late 
additions.

A Classic American Cream Ale, or, as it was also called historically, 
a "present-use ale," is brewed the same but fermented and cellared as 
any other ale.  This is what ale brewers of 100+ years ago brewed to 
compete with the growing overwhelming popularity of lagers.

If you are already brewing an all-malt pilsner, you can easily 
substitute 25-30% flaked maize (by extract) for malt.  Six-row is 
nice for authenticity (it seems to go especially well with the cereal 
adjunct), but two-row works perfectly well.  Cluster for bittering is 
both authentic and gives that old fashioned taste, but noble hops or 
US equivalents are nice for flavor and aroma.  First wort hopping 
wort very well for this style.

You know the gravity and bitterness your customers like, but I like 
about 12-12.5 P and mid 30s IBUs.  If this seems too much, you can go 
for a post-prohibition pilsner of 11P and 25 IBU (more or less what 
Schlafly's brewed).

This beer is a natural for marketing with a patriotic, Fourth of 
July, Gay Nineties theme.

I hope some of you will brew this great beer.  Please report back if 
you do.  If I can be of any assistance,  don't hesitate to ask.

Jeff Renner
American Homebrewers Association
Board of Advisors

References:

1) "Reviving the Classic American Pilsner - A Shamefully Neglected 
Style" By Jeff Renner, BrewingTechniques' September/October 1995, 
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html 
(my early thoughts, I have progressed beyond this, see below)

2) "The Revival of the Classic American Pilsner" by Jeff Renner, 
Zymurgy September/October, 2000.  Not available on-line.  Pretty 
comprehensive, this represents my more recent thoughts, although I no 
longer espouse mash-in at lower temperatures than conversion 
temperatures.

3) "Explorations in Pre-Prohibition American Lagers" By George J. Fix 
, BrewingTechniques' May/June 1994 
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.3/fix.html (my 
original inspiration)

4) "The Bushwick Pilsners: A Look at Hoppier Days" by Ben 
Jankowski,BrewingTechniques' January/February 1994. 
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html 
(A good look at the last of the flavorful post-pro pilsners)

5) "The Great Beers of Brooklyn" by Bill Moeller, The New Brewer, 
July/August, 1994.  A retired brewmaster and consultant trained at 
the old U.S. Brewers Academy looks at those same great post-pro 
Brooklyn pilsners.  Includes a seven bbl recipe.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:40:52 +0100
From: David Edge <david.j.edge at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: sugars and honey info

John Palmer provides some useful info to which I'd just add that the term
"Glucose" is not always used with great rigour by the food industry (at
least not here in the UK). When confronted by a container of "glucose
syrup" you could have almost anything.

David Edge
Signalbox Brewery
Derby, UK




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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:11:08 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at ldc.cc>
Subject: Honey Info and enzymes

John Palmer's great abstract on sugars reminded me of an incident I had many
years ago when brewing with honey.

Way, way back, when I bottled the early brews, I used some local honey for
priming. Not wanting to lose much of the character of the honey, I boiled
the water, then tossed the honey in to warm and dissolve. Well, this batch
carbonated kind of slow, but then didn't seem to want to stop carbonating.
At the end of a few months, I had gushers.

Much later I read on a honey website that honey contains diastatic enzymes,
and instantly I thought of my neverending carbonation. I guessed that the
enzymes in the honey were breaking down the dextrins and making them
fermentable.

After doing a bit of web research, I found that diastatic activity is a
freshness indicator for honey and that their diastatic number (DN) should be
above 8 but can be as high as 40 or 50.

BTW, the DN is defined as:

1 DN unit = 1 mL of 1% starch hydrolysed by the diastase in
                 1 g of honey in 1 hour at 40C.
http://www.fst.uq.edu.au/staff/bdarcy/food2001/food2001pracw.pdf

Had a hard time finding the definition of Diastatic Power (degrees Lintner)
for malted barley, but I did come across this page that shows alpha and beta
amylase molecule structures. Kinda cool. Look about 2/3 of the way down.
It's a very long page.
http://www.fst.rdg.ac.uk/courses/fs916/lect12/lect12.htm

I have no way to relate DN to DP, but the idea is this: If you're making a
honey beer or priming with honey, make sure that you sufficiently heat the
honey to deactivate *all* of the enzymes.

Been there and shoulda done that,

Dennis Lewis, Warren, OH
[175.3, 113.3] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:13:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ryan Neily <ryan at neily.net>
Subject: $15.00 Turkey Fryer Sale!  


Over a month ago, I posted a message about Wall-Mart Turkey Fryers for
$15.00.  I got a lot of response, and wanted to post a follow-up message.

Just went to another Wall-Mart in my area (different from where the first
$15.00 Turkey Fryer I saw) and they also have the $15.00 Turkey
Fryers.....only it gets better.  They are now $10.00!

I've brewed in mine, and it works great.  For the $10.00, you get a
burner, 30qt Aluminum pot, lid, the turkey hanger and holder as well as a
Thermometer.

I've bought all the ones they had at my local Wal-mart, but it might pay
for your guys to shop around!  I found them in my Wal-Mart in the
gardening section, outside the store.

- -- 
Ryan Neily
ryan at neily.net

Random Quote:
"Aerodynamics are for people that cant build good engines... - Enzo Ferrari"


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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:51:50 -0400
From: Jeff & Ellen <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: more on peppers and cascades

It's been interesting reading peoples opinions on what ingredients go well 
in beer, but I find it odd that a homebrewing forum would have any 
arguments at all that would not encourage experimentation.  Just about any 
flavor has another flavor that could balance it.  Woodruff syrup, for 
example, has a minty flavor that seems to go very well in a traditionally 
sour Berliner Weisse.
I brew a pepper beer, but I don't like to be burned by it, so I use a very 
mild pablano pepper, which is added to the keg for a day or two until the 
right levels of aroma, flavor and heat are reached, then removed.  This is 
a summer time ale based on a Belgian Wit, which has a very subtle blend of 
pepper, orange peel and coriander in the nose, and when done properly, a 
similar blend in the flavor.  The slight amount of heat in the finish just 
makes you want to drink more.  I really like it and it has become a 
favorite of friends who say they don't like beer or peppers, strangely 
enough.  As Mark Tumarkin mentioned, it has done well in competitions, too.
A true pioneer may be able to find a flavor to balance about anything.  I 
say keep trying.

As for Cascades, I try to avoid using them just because I want my beer to 
be different.  I appreciate Cascades, but I appreciate a beer hopped with 
American hops that are not citrusy even more, just because it stands out 
from the crowd.  Oddly enough the one style I like to use Cascades in is my 
Belgian Wit, because I think it enhances the orange peel flavor.

It's only beer.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa



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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:31:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ryan Neily <ryan at neily.net>
Subject: Drip Tray for Sale/Trade?


I have a rather large drip tray that will not fit on my smaller fridge
draft system. I cant use it, and was thinking maybe someone out there
would like to upgrade to a larger drip tray and trade me their small one
for my larger one. I'd also be willing to sell for the right price...

I am looking for a 6" or a 12" wide drip tray with the splash shield. I am
looking for ones with or without the tap hole at the top. It can also
either have a drain or not, I really dont care.

The specs on my drip tray are as follows:

19" Wide
14.5" High
9" Deep
A drain is installed, but it will defintiely have to be replaced.
No plastic tray is included, but I am sure you could find some of that
plastic mesh stuff
It has keyholes to hang, but no hole for the tap.
It's in OK condition, here is a picture:

http://www.neily.net/dript001.jpg

E-mail me privately if interested...

- -- 
Ryan Neily
ryan at neily.net

Random Quote:
"Horsepower sells cars, raw torque wins races...  - Carrol Shelby"


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---