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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Oak Barrel Aged Beer ("Garry Wallace")
  Sugars and Honey info (John Palmer)
  Harsh Beer - hard and soft water (Karen S Dohm)
  Re: Briess Malt (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Conditioning in corny without priming (Jeff Renner)
  Kings of BigBrew ("Steve Jones")
  Belgian Saison Yeast 565 ("morgan")
  Briess Malt and Extraction ("Dan Listermann")
  Fat Tire adjustment (Chris Colby)
  Cascade, Mead ("Dave Burley")
  Balanced taste, beer joke ("Dave Burley")
  carbonating in cornies (David Passaretti)
  Brettanomyces, Dekkera, and peppers! ;-) (Bob Devine)
  Fw: On chili, beer, and aesthetics ("Chad Stevens")
  Enzymic extraction of bound phenolics in barley (Katherine Faleka)
  Cascades & Pepper beers ("Mark Tumarkin")


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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:53:12 +1000
From: "Garry Wallace" <garrywallace at netc.net.au>
Subject: Oak Barrel Aged Beer

Dear Janitor,
At the recent Australian International Beer Awards a highly credentialed New
Zealand brewer mentioned that a future pathway for brewing experimentation
would be to age beer in old oak wine casks.  He advocated a quick clean out
with water and a sterilization with a bottle of brandy.  Then in goes your
beer.  The potential results could be delicious but the process sounds iffy.
Given that the brewing revolution seems to be years ahead in North America
and Europe, could anyone from there give me (in the Land Down Under) some
advice or anecdotes on this idea?
Yours, Garry Wallace
garrywallace at netc.net.au




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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:23:41 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Sugars and Honey info

Hi Group,
Well, I have been surfing the web looking for information on the 
differences between different sugars and what sugars are in honey, and 
I struck the jackpot.

http://www.nhb.org/foodtech/
This is part of the National Honey Board's website, and there is a nice 
pdf article on the use of honey in homebrewing there.
http://www.nhb.org/download/factsht/home_brew.pdf

Meanwhile, here is what I was tracking down about sugars:
1. Glucose and Dextrose are the same monosaccharide, they are just 
mirror twins of each other structurally.
2. Fructose is a monosaccharide very similar to glucose except that it 
has a ketone rather than an aldehyde carbonyl group. (I plan to mention 
this at dinner tomorrow night to impress the wife and kids) ;-)
3. Fructose is sweeter tasting than sucrose, which is sweeter than 
glucose, which is sweeter than maltose.
4. Invert (Candy) sugar is a 50:50 mixture of fructose and glucose. 
This differs from sucrose (glucose attached to a fructose) (a 
disaccharide) by not being chemcially bonded, and therefore the free 
fructose makes the mixture taste sweeter than sucrose.
5. Honey is a mixture of sugars (like wort) that is approximately 83% 
sugar by weight and 17% water. Or to put that another way, about 38 
PPG. BUT! that water content can vary by brand, region, etc., and the 
proportion of sugars (and therefore fermentability) will vary with the 
flowers that it came from. Bee that as it may, Honey tends to have a 
fructose to glucose ratio of 1.23 (range .76-1.86), which is why it 
generally tastes sweeter than sugar.

Good Brewing,
John

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing

PS. Apple's new music service via iTunes ROCKS!



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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 08:53:48 -0700
From: Karen S Dohm <dohmfamily at juno.com>
Subject: Harsh Beer - hard and soft water

Marc Sedam brought up a point that got me thinking about Michael's
problem.  I'm a plumber and typically when we pipe a house the correct
way is to pipe the outside hose bibs off of the hard water, before the
water softener.  You do not want your soft water being used to water the
lawn or other outside uses, which would cause your water softener to
recharge more often.   Also in some instances, hard water is piped to the
cold water faucet on the kitchen sink for drinking and cooking purposes. 
This does not necessary mean you have hard water at your outside hose
bibs or kitchen sink.  Some plumbers and people remodeling their plumbing
might find it easier to pipe a softener in and not re-pipe the hose bibs
to the hard water supply.  So my advise would be, to follow the cold
water pipe back to its supply point to see if it is before the water
softener which would be hard water, or if it connects after the water
softener, which means it would be soft water.  If you are not able to
follow the pipes back , an easy test for soft water is it should lather
quickly with the use of a bar of hand soap.  Just because you have a
water softener doesn't mean all supply points are softened.  

Steven Dohm 



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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:15:55 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Briess Malt

"Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com> reports from Knoxville, TN

>I've noticed on my last two bags (50 lb) of Briess 2-row malt that my
>extraction was way down, like 8 - 10%.

I have read similar reports (though perhaps not quite as much 
decrease) on the AoB's Brewers' Forum for micro- and brewpub brewers 
(which I read as part of being on the AHA board).  It seems to be a 
result of the poor North American barley harvest this year, and it 
isn't just Briess.  I think you have to just brew with extra malt 
until next year.

Why don't you check with Briess http://www.briessmalting.com/ to see 
what they have to say and report back?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:53:35 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Conditioning in corny without priming

Neil Spake <neils at texas.net> writes from Austin, Texas (where there 
are now 51 more democrats than there were all this past week)

>Anyone have any experience with a method suggested by Dave Miller in his
>classic homebrewing book in which conditioning and carbonation is conducted in
>a corny keg without priming?

I don't know just what Miller recommends, but if you mean sealing the 
keg while there is just a bit of remaining fermentable extract, 
that's my SOP, as I have posted here occasionally before.

My last two Classic American Pilsners (CAP) worked perfectly this 
way.  When the fermentation had just about stopped and the beer was 
no longer murky with yeast but just hazy, I racked to the keg and 
sealed.  I dropped the temperature from 50F fermentation temperature 
to 32F lagering temp over a week or so, then lagered four more weeks. 
By happy chance (or just pure skill), when I tapped each, the 
carbonation was perfect.

I do this with ales as well (with different temperatures, of course), 
and it usually requires only a bit of adjustment, either by adding 
some additional gas or, less often, releasing excess gas.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:26:26 -0400
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: Kings of BigBrew

Big Brew site results are posted on the AHA site. I've
replicated them on our site, ranked by quantity brewed,
along with many pictures from our Big Brew gathering. See
http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/bb.html.

Congrats to the Great Northern Brewers in Alaska for the
largest amount brewed during Big Brew, with 282.5 gallons.
But I want you all to notice that 3 of the top 5 sites were
from Tennessee. Memphis and Nashville beat us out, but our
gathering back in the hills of Unicoi County (population
17,740) ranked 5th in the world with 138 gallons!!

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
"Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished
by being governed by those who are dumber." - Plato





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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:36:35 -0400
From: "morgan" <morgan at clis.com>
Subject: Belgian Saison Yeast 565

Hi Everyone,
Long time reader...first time poster....
My question is about White Lab Yeast 565- Belgian Saison...

This is the first time I've used this yeast so I'm not familiar with it...

I pitched the yeast into the primary and it started in about 8-10 hours, it
fermented for two weeks (temp range 69-72F),
and then looked like it had stopped so I racked it into the secondary to get
it off the yeast cake and dry hopped with 1/2 oz of hops...
that was two weeks ago and it is still fermenting in the secondary..(temp
69-72)...not violently but if you look at the carboy you can see
the action inside...
Is this normal for this yeast to ferment this long and how long can I expect
it to ferment?
I've never had one go this long....


TIA
Dick Weiss


- ---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Cape Lookout Mail Server]



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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:49:42 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Briess Malt and Extraction


 "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com> notices that his recent
experiences with Briess malt have caused reductions in extraction.  We need
to remember that barley is a product of nature and is subject to all sorts
of variations in size and composition resulting from geography and weather
among other things.  Very likely his recent bags are from a different, more
recent, crop.  The number one determinate of extraction in brewing is crush.
All the other things maybe fun to talk about, but if you have an
insufficient crush, you are going to get poor extraction.  The gap on his
mill may be just fine for the English malts and the earlier Briess malts,
but it may be too wide for the current crop.  It should be a simple matter
of closing the gap a bit, or if unadjustable or a pain to adjust, a second
pass should do the trick.

I like to adjust the gap to the point that it is difficult to easily find
what appears to be  intact corns and those that I do find look
underdeveloped.  Someone on the RCB said,"Crush it until you get scared."  I
like that.

"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice".

I like this too.


Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 13:28:05 -0500
From: Chris Colby <colbybrewery at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Fat Tire adjustment

Jason Woolvine posted:

> The BYO recipe archives have a recipe for Fat Tire.  I
> haven't tried it so I can't comment on the recipe but
> here's the link:

> http://www.byo.com/recipe/685.html

> Jason

If you try this recipe, cut back on the chocolate malt. Use 3-4 oz. rather
than the 0.5 pound listed.

Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX



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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:33:01 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Cascade, Mead

Brewsters:

I stayed away from Cascades for many decades but on making an historical rice
adjunct based lager beer for friends and including Cascades for bittering and
such with an added Saaz nose I grew to like them in this style. I have since
tried them alone and l also like them this way.

- ----------------
Mark has a mead which he started at 1.116 and finished at 1.088 after several
repitchings and wants some advice on how to boost the alcohol content.

Try the Pearson Square method using the calculated alcohol content for your
mead, its volume, the alcohol content of the vodka.. This ratio will give you
the calculated volume to be added almost correctly.  Alcohol and water mix so
completely that the mixture is less than the sum of the two components.  It's
not much in this case so go ahead.

In the future or even on this one, try adjusting the pH higher with calcium
carbonate and repitching yeast with a nutrient.

Problem with meads is that they have no inherent nutritional content to amount
to much and more importantly no buffering system  As the fermentation proceeds
the pH drops outside the range where any yeast enzyme can support the
fermentation. Meads without fruit to buffer them for this reason are slow to
ferment and really never finish.

Next time add a yeast nutrient and monitor the pH and keep it in the 4s with
calcium carbonate.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:20:24 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Balanced taste, beer joke

Brewsters:

To think all this discussion started with chili beer.

My opinion: good Indian food ( which varies widely from top to bottom of
India) is often spicy but balanced, as is Thai food.  You won't get either in
the US very often or even on the street in the home country but in the finest
reastaurants it does exist. The absolute best Indian food I ever had was not
in India, but in Manchester England.  Hot, but spicily delicious with many
flavor layers.

Some years ago I took some Thai visitors to a new Thai restaurant in NYC.
Advising them, that the food would likely be less spicy than they were used
to, I encouraged them to tell the cook how they liked their food. He came out
and they did so.  I ate alongside them.  After a lip numbing meal, I inquired
how they liked it.  The comment "Too hot!"

Likewise, good chili beer isn't a light lager with some chili added.  Try a
beer along the lines of a Negro Modelo ( to stay in the Austro-Mexican theme)
or even darker mashed at 158 F and the chili balances the sweetness and vice
versa.  Very Nice!
- ------------------------
A small boy was lost in a shopping mall and approached a policemen and said

"I lost my Dad"

The policeman smiled,  bent over and said

"And what's your daddy like?"

And the boy said:

"Beer and women with big T*ts"


Keep on Brewin',

Dave Burley





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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Passaretti <dpassaretti at yahoo.com>
Subject: carbonating in cornies

Neil,
I do it all the time and it is very easy. Simply watch
your fermentation and when it is near its limit rack
it to cornie kegs. For a batch I expect to hit 1.012 I
will rack at about 1.014.  Let the beer sit at the
same temp for a few days and it will carbonate
naturally as the yeast ferment the last bit of sugar. 
The downside is that you will end up with more yeast
sediemnt in your cornie but with the appropriate yeast
strain this is usually not a problem.  The other word
of caution is that it is very dangerous to allow
fermentation to occurr in a sealed vessel, eg a corny
keg.  I would either use a pressure gauge attached to
a gas QD to monitor the inside pressure and relieve as
needed via the safety valve or, even better, use an
adjustable pressure relief valve (available at
BBMB)and set to the desired pressure. This is safe and
does not require any monitoring, just set and forget. 
I have actually switched to fermenting in a sanke with
a corny top welded on.  Near the end of fermentation I
simply put on the relief valve and set to about
15-20psi and the beer will carbonate to the desired
level.  This allows me to transfer the beer with less
sediment.

Good Luck
David Passaretti



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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:31:40 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brettanomyces, Dekkera, and peppers! ;-)

Chad Stevens asks:
>  It is my understanding that in 1996 the genus Brettanomyces was replaced by
> Dekkera:
> 
>  Brettanomyces abstinens is now Dekkera bruxellensis
>  ""                    anomalus            ""      anomala
>  ""                    bruxellensis         ""      bruxellensis
>  ""                    claussenii            ""      anomala
>  ""                    custerianus         ""      custeriana
>  ""                    custersii              ?
>  ""                    intermedius         ?
>  ""                    lambicus             ""      bruxellensis
>  ""                    naardenensis       ""      naardenensis
> 
>  Can anyone confirm the genus Brettanomyces no longer exists?  Any
> additional info?

Most of the literature I've seen (not extensive by any stretch)
uses Dekkera as the name with Brettanomyces as a synonym.

For example, what was "Brettanomyces bruxellensis" is
now most commonly called "Dekkera bruxellensis".  But some
papers try to avoid confusion by referring to this as
"Dekkera/Brettanomyces" or vice versa.

One source says that Dekkera is a version of Brett that
can make spores.  Anybody with more info?

Some references of current naming:
   http://www.ncl-india.org/ncim/NCIM05-Yeast.PDF
   http://wdcm.nig.ac.jp/catalogue/ncim/document/Ncim_yeast1.pdf.

Most wine makers regard D/B as a spoiler that can be very
difficult to control in the winery.  It may even use some
of the medium chain sugars from new oak barrels themselves
and can destroy the subtle varietal notes.

Wine makers have collected 50-80 variations of D/B in
an effort to study and control unwanted infections.

Yet it can provide an interesting characteristic.  Some red
wines when aged in barrels get an interesting dimension
with a small amount.  Of course, too much is, well, too much.

So, I understand the point that Steve Alexander is making
about unbalanced or infantile foods.  But I can appreciate
a chile beer when expertly made.

Bob Devine
(still not illegally brewing in Utah, nope, not me)



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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:59:01 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Fw: On chili, beer, and aesthetics

Tisk tisk Steven.  You mean to tell me you've never sat down and enjoyed
MickyD's salty catsup juxtaposed by the exquisite sourness of their pickle
in a fresh, plain Quarter Pounder?  Granted, it's absurd, but I just love
that particular flavor combination.  My mouth is watering just thinking of
this beautifully crafted, well balanced work of art.

 As for chili in beer, it sucks.  And how do I know it sucks, because I say
so.  It is an entirely subjective assertion just as valid as "I like chili
beer because it's jazzy."  There is nothing more to be said.  He likes it
because he likes it.  To apply empiricism or reason or logic muddies the
waters.  If someone likes the stuff, more power to 'em.  To argue otherwise
is futile.  And that is the beauty of aesthetics.  Some people like circles,
some like squares, and some dig squiggly lines.  You and I can stack up our
reasons/observations/experience/data... on one side and the chili lovers can
do the same on their side.  But in the end, none of it matters because
beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 May the force be with you!

 Chad Stevens

 ---------------------------------

"Now it is beyond my power to call them back.  They were nothing but the
outcome of youthful bravado.  At that age the mind refuses to admit that its
greatest cause for pride is in its power to understand, to accept, to
respect; and that modesty is the best means of enlarging its domain.  To
admire and praise becomes a sign of weakness or surrender, and the desire to
cry down and hurt and demolish with argument gives rise to a kind of
intellectual fireworks.  These attempts of mine to establish my superiority
by revilement might have amused me today, had not their want of
straightforwardness and common courtesy been too painful."

Rabindranath Tagore



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Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:27:55 +0100
From: Katherine Faleka <a.faleka at reading.ac.uk>
Subject: Enzymic extraction of bound phenolics in barley

Dear All, 

I am a student doing a research in bound phenolics of barley and if
anyone has any information on  enzyme preparations that could be used
in order to extract the bound phenolics, I would be eternally grateful
if he/she would post them or e-mail me in private. Whatever you come
up with, even links to sites you consider woulp help me out, will be
highly appreciated!

Thank you in advance
Katherine



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Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:43:25 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Cascades & Pepper beers

The recent discussions on Cascades & chilis seem to have a unifying theme -
taste is a personal matter. If you like it; put it in your beer. If you
don't...well, then don't. We're no longer constrained by Reinheitsgebot. Many
homebrewers don't even adhere to Swineheitsgebot - basically, don't put
anything in your beer that a pig wouldn't eat. I'm not sure about the
Cascades, but a pig would certainly chow down on a hot chili.

With regard to Cascades, the perception of at least some Aussie homebrewers
that American homebrewers don't like Cascades has been shown to be untrue.
Cascades is a signature hop in APA and other American styles. It drove
the microbrew explosion (or at least it was along for the ride) on the pro
side and homebrewers have and do use it extensively. Many of us go through a
phase of pushing the envelope to see how hoppy we can get our brews. I
certainly did ... though I left Miami years ago; homebrewing friends down
there still ask me about a particular hoppy porter that  I called Scorned
Lover, a Dark and Bitter Brew. Cascades by the handful can be wonderful......
or it can result in the dreaded grapefruit beer.

As has been noted repeatedly, balance is key. And most of us pass through the
phase of hopping the bejesus out of everything. Though for some it's a
permanent affliction, and for others it's the Holy Grail (can you say Hop
God?).
Personally, I love big aggressive hoppage,  but balance & complexity have be
come to be more important than huge IBU's. Still, a big, aggressively hopped
beer with the
malt to support it is a treat. And though I still like & use Cascades, I much
prefer Centennial (Larry Bell's Two Hearted Ale is a favorite). I had a truly
wonderful Am pale this weekend, Tan Line by Orlando Brewing Partners (a new FL
microbrewer) that used all five American 'C' hops with great success....
complexity & balance rule.

On hot peppers, I'm certainly a chili-head, but I've never personally cared
for pepper beers (as a general rule). I like hot, spicy food but I want to
accompany it with a cool refreshing beer. Not one that's as spicy as the food
itself. Generally, hot pepper beer is not a combination I like.... though
there are some excellent pepper beers that come to mind. One commercial
example is Rogue's Mexacali Rogue. Not a majorly hot chili beer, it has great
pepper flavor & moderate warmth ...... and achieves a nice balance. A
homebrewed example that comes to mind is Jeff Gladish's Poblano Wit. Obviously
most of you haven't had the opportunity to try Jeff's beer, but it's done
extremely well in competition and I find it to be a very interesting
combination of flavors and also to have excellent balance. This one also has
only moderate heat. But that's my taste.... you may love really hot, spicy
chili beers.

Since the hops discussion began with Am Cascades and Australian POR, perhaps
we could be guided by the marketing slogan of that American 'Aussie'
restaurant chain, the Outback..... No Rules, Just Right. There's no rules
here. If it's right to you, then do it. It may suit your taste, it certainly
won't suit everyone's. Putting flavors together creatively in unusual
combinations doesn't always work, in beer or in cooking. But then again you
may come up with something that you love (even if no one else does).

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL










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