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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  What does "yeasty" taste like? (the Badger of Norman)
  reply to "stuck" ferments, blowoff (Alan Duester)
  low end hydrometer source (Alan Duester)
  review of Sieben's in Chicago (Alan Duester)
  Re: Stuck Fermentation (Robert Del Favero Jr.)
  how to get yeast slurry (Rick Noah Zucker)
  SIGNOFF (AUIDCC)
  Re: blow-off, dry hop (John Polstra)
  Wyeast's Bursting Bags (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Blow Off Problems (Norm Hardy)
  Rubicon Tour (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Re: plastic kegs (617)253-0885" <CASEY at ALCVAX.PFC.MIT.EDU>


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Date: Fri, 25 May 90 10:05 CDT
From: the Badger of Norman <PTGARVIN at aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu>
Subject: What does "yeasty" taste like?

Greetings, homebrew fans!

I've opened some "not-quite-ready" beer (it's only been in the bottles for
a week to two weeks) and it tasted "metallic".  Is this what "yeasty"
tastes like?  "Yeasty" had always tasted kind of sharp, but usually, that
was in more mature bottles.  (This is the batch that a few bottle caps
landed in, by accident, when I was bottling.  The bottle caps were sterile.
I didn't discover them until after bottling.)


 - Ted, aka Badger on TinyHell
- --
"I never say everything I am thinking, and not just because I think
much faster than I can think."  -- Dan Mocsny
ptgarvin at aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu / ptgarvin at uokmax.UUCP | Eris loves you!
in the Society: Padraig Cosfhota o hUlad / Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
Disclaimer:  Fragile.  Contents inflammable.  Do not use near open flame.

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Date: Fri, 25 May 90 11:23:50 EDT
From: capnal at aqua.whoi.edu (Alan Duester)
Subject: reply to "stuck" ferments, blowoff

> cckweiss at castor.ucdavis.edu
>I recently had an inadvertent experiment in blow-off brewing. I racked into
>the secondary a bit too soon and got about 2 cups of blow off through the
>fermentation lock and onto the basement floor. My question is, for anyone
>who converted from conventional to blow-off fermentation, did it make a really
>*BIG* difference in the quality of your brew? Cause this stuff I made is in
>the fridge now, and it's really good, and I'm wondering if a revision in my
>brewing techniques is called for.

I got a large improvement in flavor when I switched to blow-off
techniques. This subject is probably going to lead to flaming, as it's a
subject of great controversy. Your answer depends on your individual
tastes. I tried a batch a few months back the old way in a 7 gallon
plastic bucket letting the foam collapse back in - I didn't like the
result. However, the amount of improvement in my brew's flavor was more
noticeable with all the following switches I made over the past years.

1) Boiling all water, including water to chill in fridge to bring batch
to 5 gal. in carbuoy.

2) Switching to Leigh-williams stout yeast - mostly, I think, because of
enough of a volume of yeast into the starter so I usually get blowoff
within 2-4 hours of placing into primary, and completed primary ferment (no
secondary) within 5-6 days.

3) Switching from boiled water to filtered water - no chlorine in water
I start my grains in? I do grains and extract mixed.

4) Changing from canned malt extract to dried malt extract.

*******************

>From: gak at Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
>Subject: Stuck Fermentation?
>
>"Gak & Gerry's Batch #3" is in the fermenter now.  We brewed it on
>Sunday and pitched two packets of Red Star Ale Yeast.  It bubbled
>Like Mad on Monday, but it was almost stopped by Tuesday night!
>Is this your basic "Stuck Fermentation"?  What can be done about it?

See my #2 above. I pitched at Midnight Wed, and at 10 am Fri I had my
fermentation lock on & it was bubbling at 1 per 5 sec..

A) Do you have an inch or two of yeast on the bottom?
B) Does your hydrometer read a reasonable number (~25% of OG for regular
batches, ~33% for batches with lots of unfermentable dextrins like my brews
have)?.

If so, you're golden. Don't be like the novice brewer we had here. After
tasting a sample bottle that he wanted us to analyze to figure out why his brew
was bad, we had to sadly inform him that he had poured 5 gallons of
perfectly fine brew down the drain due to excessive worry.....

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Date: Fri, 25 May 90 11:24:15 EDT
From: capnal at aqua.whoi.edu (Alan Duester)
Subject: low end hydrometer source

Anyone on the west side of Chicago should note
that American Science Center (a.k.a. Jerryco) 5696
Northwest Highway (312) 763-0313, had urine
testing hydrometers, range 1.000 to 1.060 for
$3.50. Small size, reducing whatcha need to use up
in a sample.

There's also a Milwaukee store (414) 281-2322, and
an affiliate: Grande Junquetion Ltd, 100 South Lyn
Shores, Virginia Beach, VA. Mail order as well
from Evanston, IL (708) 475-8440. Neat surplus
catalog with all kindza nifty stuff.

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Date: Fri, 25 May 90 11:25:45 EDT
From: capnal at aqua.whoi.edu (Alan Duester)
Subject: review of Sieben's in Chicago

I was in Chicago last weekend, and got to the Sieben brewpub for dinner.
436 W. Ontario. Parking on the street very crowded due to dance club
across the street. $3.00 parking at lot a block west of the brewery.
Large water tower with Sieben label on top of building. Either a dance
club or a function room that was having a wedding attached (shares
bathrooms via a corridor). This led to the building resounding with the
thumpy, overcranked bass, but didn't really interfere with conversation.

Atmosphere: The non-smoking section involved the Maitre-de-ess seating
us at a table and removing the ashtray. Not legal under area laws as I
understand them, but then the ventilation was goo enough so that I
wasn't bothered by the party of 6 smoking at the table next to us.

The large copper-domed brew kettles are displayed behind glass as you
walk in.

Food:  Very good rating by both of us. Generous portions at reasonable
pricing.

Beer Cheese soup very good, but also VERY salty. What they served as a
cup would pass for a bowl in any other place I've been.

Onion rings $5 for a loaf. I had just these for dinner, and couldn't
finish the portion. Suitable to serve 4 hungries as an appetizer! Also
very good. Barbecue sauce served with them was potent. I'd love to try
it on ribs, but don't remember if ribs were on the menu (but they gotta
be, right? I mean this *was* Chicago.....).

My partners Reuben sandwich good but a little shy on amount of
sauerkraut. German Potato Salad served with was also very nice. Flavors
blended nicely and richly, without the harsh overtones most have.

Brews: All served cold, but not excessively so, carbonation shy of
traditional american brews (just right for me). All less hopped (both
bittering and finishing) than other brewpubs I've visited. A sampler of
four 8 oz. glasses cost $3.50. Alcohol content did not seem very high. I
expected to notice more effects after 30-35 oz. of brew, but would not
have driven right afterwards.

Weiss - served with lemon. Blah. The lemon totally overpowered any wheat
flavor that might have been there. Not an unpleasant drink on its own
(lemon beer), but not what I would expect from a weiss.

Lager - equivalent to a good, premium, domestic with more than average
flavor. Nice, but not great on any count. Non-distinctive, in other
words. Suitable more for the average bar-hopper crowd as an intro to
what real brewers can make.

Amber - sorta wimpy, smooth, and non-distinct like the lager, but a bit
different and richer. Another good brew to use to start introducing
Budalobe drinkers to what brewing can produce. They liken this to Bass,
but I haven't had Bass served as this was (it's always in a bottle, too
cold and too carbonated). Better, creamier head than I've ever seen Bass
have.

Irish - A rich, warm brew with an undescribable flavor (at least by me -
might have been the diacetyl butterscotch folks have been talking of, of
late). VERY nice - I could easily drink this all evening.

Bock - Very nice, smooth, rich, & malty. Another brew I could drink all
night. This wasn't really available this evening, as they were having
problems with that line (overcarbonation and gushing, I believe), but I
mentioned that I was going to review their brews for the net, and the
waiter managed to dribble some brew out for me to sample. I wasn't
billed for this and don't know if it's normally included in the sampler.
Mentioning that I was doing the review may also be why the soup portion
was so large, but it was the only way I could get some Bock.

My recommendations would be to skip the Weiss, Amber, and Lager, or
split a sampler among four folks without diseases. I think regular
glasses are $2, and double glasses are $4, but I was paying more
attention to my friend and driver than the menu.

For those of you doing the World Fantasy Con brew-hop trip that R. Allen
Jervis is trying to organize over Halloween, I'd rate this as slightly
better quality food, beer different but about equal (dark brew available
here but not Goose, but Goose had hoppy pilsner), but a good deal
cheaper than Goose Island (which I reviewed a few months back) in both
food & beer. The Berghoff downtown is listed in brew guides, but only
seemed to be a better than average German restaurant with its own
bottled brew, which is not exceptional. Don't worry if you miss it, but
be sure to hit both Sieben and Goose Island.

BTW, Baderbrau (a Chicago microbrew) is available in bottles in stores
in the area, now. I didn't pick any up or try it, as we were planning on
Von Stuke's Hofbrau but failed to make it.

=========================================================================
                     "The farther it gets from the bench it was built on, 
                      the more real the real world gets."  - Todd Johnson
Al Duester, Ocean Engineer, MS S201   #  SPAN: 6308::capnal
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution  #  INTERNET:  capnal at aqua.whoi.edu
Woods Hole, MA  02543                 #  GEnie:  A.DUESTER
(508) 548-1400 x2474 (ans. Machine, voice messages)
(508) 457-2000 auto-receptionist for touch tone phones
=========================================================================

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Date: Fri, 25 May 90 09:07:28 EDT
From: hplabs!gatech!b.atc.olivetti.com!bunker!clunker!rvd (Robert Del Favero Jr.)
Subject: Re: Stuck Fermentation


Before I went around badmouthing Red Star yeast, I'd take a hydrometer
reading.  It's not unheard of for a primary fermentation to be essentially
finished in a day or two -- in fact, the someone asked about the same
thing on the Net a few months ago.  Turned out that when they tried 
a hydrometer reading they found that their fermentation had stopped for
lack of fermentables in the wort ;-)

If your hydrometer reading isn't close to the final gravity in your
recipe, then your fermentation is probably stuck, and you should follow
the standard unsticking procedures.  If the gravity reading is close to
the FG in your recipe, it's time to rack into the secondary.

I need to say something in response to the fellow who suggested that
using Red Star yeast was the cause of your problem.  In my experience,
Red Star isn't great yeast, but it does do the job, and I have one
recipe where I prefer the taste with Red Star over the taste with
Whitbread's.  There are lots of things you can do to affect the quality
of the finished product, and some (like sanitation) are (in my
experience) much more important than others.  If you start Red Star in
a starter wort a day or two before you brew, you should get acceptable
results.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Robert V. Del Favero, Jr.            ISC-Bunker Ramo, an Olivetti Company 
rvd at clunker.uucp                     Shelton, Connecticut, USA
OR clunker!rvd at oliveb.atc.olivetti.com

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Date: Fri, 25 May 90 10:22:27 -0700
From: noah at cs.washington.edu (Rick Noah Zucker)
Subject: how to get yeast slurry


	A friend of mine who was doing a two stage fermentation saved his
yeast slurry for me and for another batch of his.  Papazian says that the
best yeast to use is yeast slurry, and we must agree that it worked great.
We just pitched it without creating a starter and things got going in no
time.  The question is, how do you collect the slurry if you are doing a
single stage fermentation?  Will it simply pour out of the carboy well?
Also, how long will it stay good for?  Can you even freeze it or will the
yeast take offense to that?

						Rick Zucker,
						U Dub, CSE

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Date:     Fri, 25 May 90 15:41 CDT
From: <AUIDCC%AUDUCVAX.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:  SIGNOFF

SIGNOFF HOMEBREW STEVE ENSMINGER

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Date: Thu, 24 May 90 08:48:49 PDT
From: hplabs!polstra!jdp (John Polstra)
Subject: Re: blow-off, dry hop

> How does a dry hopped beer differ from a conventionally produced brew?

Much more hop aroma and noticeably increased hop flavor.

 -  John Polstra               jdp at polstra.uucp
   Polstra & Co., Inc.        practic!polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Seattle, Washington USA    ...{uunet,sun,pyramid}!practic!polstra!jdp
   (206) 932-6482


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Date: Thu, 24 May 90 10:33:21 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hplabs!pbmoss!mal>
Subject: Wyeast's Bursting Bags

To continue the exploding Wyeast packet thread:  Last night I had
one burst when I tried to start it!  Not only did the inner capsule
rupture, but the outer packet as well ... yeast and culture medium,
all over the kitchen.  Bummer.  The homebrew shop where I got it
(R&R Home Fermentations in Sacramento) told me to bring it back, and
they'll presumably send it back to Wyeast so they can study the
obvious design flaw in their package.  I hope I have a viable
culture to pitch on Sunday ...

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= pacbell!pbmoss!mal  -or-  mal at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM      916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =



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Date: Thu, 24 May 90 17:21:31 PDT
From: hplabs!polstra!norm (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Blow Off Problems

The question was raised about having a secondary ferment blow excess wort
through the air lock.  Did it ruin the beer?....

I doubt it.  Actually, the times that has happened to me, the beers all came
out quite fine;  sooooo, don't worry, just be more patient before racking and
wait until the activity is slowed way down.

I put all the secondary ferments into a refrigerator to condition and clear.
Usually a week or two is sufficient.

Norm Hardy



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Date: Fri, 25 May 90 15:42:22 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <hplabs!pbmoss!mal>
Subject: Rubicon Tour

In HOMEBREW Digest #421, Ken Weiss asked:

>I had dinner last night at Rubicon Brewing Company, on Capitol Ave. in
>Sacramento ...
>	... the waitress told me that the brewmaster there started out as
>a homebrewer, and went on to some advanced study at UC Davis, scaled up,
>and voila! His name is Phil Moeller. He wasn't around, but the waitress
>said he's happy to arrange tours for brewers.
>
>If anyone's interested in checking this place out and having a bit of a
>tour, E-mail me and I'll try to set things up.
>
>Ken Weiss
>krweiss at ucdavis.edu
>cckweiss at castor.ucdavis.edu

Ken called a few minutes ago, and the tour looks like it's coming
together!  Mornings are best for the Brewmaster, and he's suggested
two possible dates:

		Saturday, 9 June
		Saturday, 23 June

If you'll be in the Sacramento area on either of those dates and
would like to take a tour of this successful brewpub, please drop
Ken some email and let him know which date you'd prefer.  If you
can't reach him, mail to me, and I'll forward.  But (as the ads
say), act now!  The Rubicon folks would like to know soon which day
we prefer.  Y'all come; should be a Good Thing.

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= pacbell!pbmoss!mal  -or-  mal at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM      916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =



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Date: Wed, 23 May 90 09:51 EST
From: "JEFF CASEY / (617)253-0885" <CASEY at ALCVAX.PFC.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: plastic kegs

Bill Pemberton asks:

>I recently saw a kegging system in one of the mail order catalogs
>and I would like to know if anyone out there has any experience with it.
>It is the brewcraft plastic 'pressure keg.'  I would really appreciate
>any information/recommendations/etc that anyone might have with this
>system.

I bought one of these (I think it was Edme and/or Brewcraft, in any case
it had fake wood grain texturing on the sides) in the 3 gallon size.  I
kegged about 5 or 6 batches with it, and had problems on at least 3 of them.
The spigot has a real problem with sticking, and needs to be disassembled
and cleaned EVERY time you use it - it is a funny two part valve.  If you
don't, the upper part sticks and separates from the lower part, and then
strips when you crank down hard enough to stop the drips.  I didn't discover
this until I blew out one valve (and half a keg of beer - I was kept busy
drinking...).  It also helps to lubricate the upper valve pieces and threads
with vegetable oil every time too.   After I figured that out, I had a problem
with the pressure valve -- it is a plastic plunger with an o-ring seal, and the
shaft broke off of the sealing disc.  I discovered this after filling the keg,
and had to quickly wash a case and a half of bottles and bottle instead.
If I had kept using the keg, I would have also wanted to replace the pressure
valve with a weaker spring, to drop the 10 psi down to 5psi for a more
reasonable head (at the cost of more CO2 cylinder use).  10 psi is a little
ridiculous - all you get is foam.  The keg is now in my basement collecting
dust -- if anybody in the Boston area wants it, you can have it for free, but
you'll have to replace the o-ring seal plunger.

I have since spent the relatively big bucks to buy a Cornelius keg.  No 
comparison -- all metal, simple apparatus, serving is easier with a tap
on a hose, and pressure control means that I keep under 10 psi for a good
head, and drop to 5psi for serving at parties.  If it isn't clear by now,
my advice is to avoid the half measures, and do it right.  You won't be
sorry.            Jeff Casey
(617)924-0523 home   (617)253-0885 work    CASEY at ALCVAX.PFC.MIT.EDU

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #426, 05/28/90
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