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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Alcoholism ("Edward D")
  Want to buy a pump for HERMS ("Parker Dutro")
  was Re: Shipping Homebrew ("-S")
  Re: Hopping and Specific Gravity ("Chip Bulla")
  Ranco Temperature Controller Wiring (Fred Johnson)
  Re: Homebrew Consumption (Bev Blackwood II)
  plant/alcoholism ("A.J. deLange")
  RE: Beer Consumption Poll ("Jodie Davis")
  Double boiling, alcoholism ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Bourbon Barrels (Jeff Renner)
  Re: consumption (Jeff Renner)
  Mailing Homebrew, Civil Disobedience and Arguments Against. (cboyer)
  Alcoholism ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Over oxygenation? (Ted Teuscher)
  Re: hops and caps (Calvin Perilloux)
  RE: Alcoholism (mas4786)
  RE: Mailing Homebrew  [research, development or testing] ("Waltman, Dennis")
  Crawling on my Knees ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: hops and caps (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  Vanilla (darrell.leavitt)
  RE: alcoholism (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: AHA Conference Attendance & Pub Crawl (Roger Deschner)
  Dave's question about hops... ("Steve Dale-Johnson")


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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:30:24 +0800
From: "Edward D" <edwardd at dodo.com.au>
Subject: Re: Alcoholism

NO Spam wrote a long post, almost a rant on this isu saying that he dosenot
by the genetic argument.

i will say that most of his post was acuret but some people are "genetically
predisposed" to alcoholism.

geneticly controled trates that afect alchoholism would probably include
sise (also influenced by diet), liver efishancy, brain chemistry and no dout
a lot of other things.

ofcaus all these things are only contributing factors. if you dont dring a
signifigant amont of alchohole sumwhat regulaly for a signifigant amount of
time you will not becom an alchoholic.

your genetics diet and state of phisical health will afect how much
alchohole how often for how long you have to drink befor phisiological
changes in brain chemistry make stoping a highly unplesnt and difcult task.

it is interesting to note that you complaned that blaming genetics was a cop
out and then proseded to blame the american culture of no alchohole untill a
cirtan age when you are then (somtimes befor) exposed to binges as a socialy
acseptable activity.

i am not saying this is a good thing it is quite bad and i lost respect for
a lot of my friends during that time of my life (we have simaler problems in
australia) but it is as much an excse for your own falings as genetics.

Edward



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 00:48:16 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Want to buy a pump for HERMS

I am searching and price shopping for a pump to use in the HERMS system
I am fabricating.  Any good sources with specific pumps that you or a
buddy has used would be cool.  Looking for food grade material, heat at
or above 200 f and magnetically driven.  Thanks all.

Parker 




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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 04:19:44 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: was Re: Shipping Homebrew

Well I've tried to keep my political opinions to myself (this time) but Todd
Goodmans post hits so on-target that I feel compelled to expand on one point
 ...

>Finally, they'll tax the industry to death and use civil penalties to
>bankrupt any manufacturers/providers/suppliers.

The late Sen.P.D.Moynihan circa 1990, proposed "taxing bullets out of
existence".   Some activities which society at large deems inappropriate are
Constitutionally protected, *BUT* heavy taxes can be levied and the vendors
involved can, by legislative action, be exposed to lawsuits based on an
entirely frivolous calculations of "the cost to society" and misplacement of
responsibility.  Justice John Marshall wrote 180 odd years ago that "the
power to tax is the power to destroy".  Using this Moynihan designed an
effective 'end-run' around the Constitutional protections in order to
destroy personal freedoms(tobacco not bullets were the first successful
target).  By utilizing this flaw Moynihan may yet complete the process of
rendering the US Constitution entirely irrelevant.

"Tyranny of a majority" (see James Madison , Alexis deToqueville's, John
Stuart Mill and F.A. Hayek ) by onerous taxation & lawsuit rather than
legislation isn't simply a new tactic, but implies an entirely different
form of government with no protections from the whims of a majority.

Of tobacco - the real cost to society is quite tiny when added medical costs
are balanced against  lesser pension & social benefits received.   There is
little to justify the huge tax and lawsuit burden except this:  a majority
wished to see the freedom to smoke eliminated.

Why would "they" stop with the one success of eliminating tobacco  ?

 -S





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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:36:57 -0400
From: "Chip Bulla" <chip_bulla at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hopping and Specific Gravity

John in Duluth writes:

"While brewing a Porter the other day using a kettle mash/batch sparge
procedure it occured to me that the 6.5 gallons of wort produced weighed
more than my lifetime lifting restrictings allowed. Later while waiting the
hour and a half it takes for my stove to bring 6.5 gallons to a boil I had a
thought: Since a batch sparge produces two roughly equal volumes of wort,
one of a higher specific gravity than the target and one of a lower gravity,
why not run off in to two boiling kettles? I could easily lift each one,
each would come to a boil faster and would chill in my divided sink water
bath more quickly. The question (besides is the stupid for reasons beyond
my knowledge) is What about hopping? Should I split the hops or hop one of
the worts? If the latter: which one the higher or the lower gravity? The
Porter, by the way, promises to be excellent: tastes both before and after
hopping and boiling show it to have a nice balance of flavours with out
having too heavy a body."

John,
I have done a few split batches like that and have had good results.  As for 
the hopping, I split the hops between the two brew pots.  I remember reading 
that the hops will be utilized better if more of the final wort volume 
containing the hops is boiled.  Maybe some of the experts out there can 
further explain as to why.  I'm sorry, but I don't remember where I read 
this info.  In my experience, personal however, I have noticed greater hop 
flavor and aroma using the same amounts of hops as I did when my boil 
volumes were less.  Hope this helps.

Chip Bulla
Apex NC
[525.8,147.7] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:41:48 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Ranco Temperature Controller Wiring

I am about to purchase a Ranco Electronic Temperature Controller to 
control the temperature of a freezer for lagering and storing beer. 
These controllers are available unwired in lots of places. They also 
are available in some homebrew outlets already wired for hooking up to 
a freezer (or whatever other device you're interested in).  Are there 
any tricks to wiring this controller to control the on/off of a 
freezer?   If anyone could provide instructions for wiring this, I 
would be grateful.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:51:44 -0500
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Consumption

> Spencer, I've NEVER bought that "Genetic Predisposition"
> stuff. I refuse to believe that alcoholism is in anyone's
> genes, or that it is a medical condition.

Suit yourself, but...

1) some Oriental people cannot metabolize alcohol in the same way as 
other races and that is considered to be a genetic predisposition 
against alcoholism, I.E. if drinking isn't pleasant, you're not going 
to do it.   2) Addictive personality disorders have been very well 
documented and don't limit themselves to drugs or alcohol.  3) While 
you can make the argument that upbringing has a lot to do with how 
alcohol is treated within a family, the argument is built around 
genetically related persons whose upbringing was not the same, but 
alcoholism still resulted.

An interesting web page on the topic:

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/iss19-3.htm

I found Keller's book on the subject very enlightening.

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:00:11 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: plant/alcoholism

The mystery vine is doubtless Humulus japonicus - a decorative variety 
to some and a weed to others. There are several good pictures at 
http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/pictures/p07/pages/humulus-japonicus.htm
which also has pictures of lupulus for comparison.

While it may not be fully understood  it is pretty clear that there are 
genetic components to alcoholism related to the way in which alcoholics 
metabolise EtOH relative to how the rest of us do. How else could you 
explain the fact that certain races (the aboriginals of Australia, for 
example) universally suffer from it? It's been pretty extensively 
studied and there's lots of stuff to read - just do a search on the 
internet. This is not to say that I don't agree that the Europaean 
attitude towads alcohol is much healthier than ours.

A.J.



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:27:18 -0400
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: Beer Consumption Poll

Normal for me is 1-2 bottles a day. I sure look forward to that first
one at 5 and then have one with dinner, so it's over a three hour
period. Sometimes I replace that second one with a glass of wine. And
I've just discovered a relish single malt scotch. Haven't bought any
yet... As others have written, I workout and eat right (although I don't
believe in all that low fat thinking--I eat small portions) so I can
enjoy the many wonders of this world such as beer and chocolate.

As another HBDer observed, more than one Bud Lite drinker has told me he
can't handle anything else because he drinks 6 or 8 or more beers a day.

Jodie Davis Barthlow
Georgia



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:53:08 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Double boiling, alcoholism

Brewsters:

John asked about boiling in two kettles instead of one and how about hopping
the different SG worts?

I started doing this decades ago when I found out two boiled faster than one
( basically twice as much heat due to two burners vs one) and the two smaller
4 gallon SS kettles at K-Mart were MUCH cheaper than a big one from a
specialty cooking store.

I take care of the hop extraction/s.g. problem by carefully blending the
different s.g.s to approximately the same s.g. in each boiler, without a lots
of air getting mixed  in, by using a small "dipper" - a small pan.  Back and
forth mixing of a few pansful will do the trick of evening out the difference
and save you a lot of useless calculations, since it is somewhat of an unknown
factor with lots of variables.
- -----------------
I suspect more damage has been done to alcoholics by the Prohibition era this
country suffered than anything else.  As a result, it pushed drinking alcohol
into those sorts of dark and dank hidden rooms most of us hate, instead of out
into well lighted family entertainment areas as in most other countries.  This
affects the clientele, who are often self-selected as those of low self esteem
and provide an ideal opportunity to influence others who attend these bars
along a similar line.  Good news is that it is changing for the better, as
Americans are no longer afraid to drink in a lighted room.

I can't entirely agree, however, that alcoholism is free from any genetic
influence after seeing the impact of drinking one beer has on many friends of
Asian heritage ( including the American "Indian").  As many have observed, a
high percentage of Asians have an enzyme missing from the liver which prevents
the rapid metabolism of alcohol.  The "Asian flush" or a red face develops and
indicates poisioning is underway.

One of my Singaporean buddies was often not allowed to go to lunch with the
group of guys when they wanted to have a few beers for lunch.  He was the
"alcohol indicator" and if he came back with a red face, the boss knew the
boys had had a few cool ones.

Excess alcohol consumption can be really  painful and result in more than just
a red face.  It is not unusual to see Japanese men in downtown Ginza or
Roppongi  late at night passed out on the street in business suits as a result
of excessive alcohol consumption.  This may or may not be genetically
influenced, but could be as the alcohol quickly builds up in the body of those
genetically inflicted.

 This demonstrates that there is a differing response to alcohol based on
genetics.  Many, many other genetic differences could easily exist and
participate in alcoholism.

There seems to be a high incidence of alcoholism within family lines.  Is this
due to genetics or environment or both?  Probably both.

Is the American Indian a victim of his genetics and this explains the
extremely high incidence of alcoholism? Possibly, but I suspect the failure to
integrate into this society and the loss of his own, historically, is probably
the major influence - enabled by the US goverment welfare plan for Indians.

What seems to be the answer?  The same answer as always.  We may be
genetically disposed for certain positive and negative behaviors, as I suspect
everyone is.  But we do have a free will and we can control ourselves. It is
time we re-learned a lesson this country has known historically.  There is
only true happiness when there are no excuses. Be responsible for your
actions.

Keep on Brewin',

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:08:17 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Bourbon Barrels

[I sent this and the next post Sunday afternoon but never got a 
confirmation reply, nor did it appear in Monday's HBD.  Sorry if they 

Mike Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> writes:

>A) Jack Daniels is not Bourbon.

True, they don't call it bourbon, but rather Tennessee whiskey.  But 
it could be sold as bourbon.  Tennessee whiskey must meet all the 
requirements for bourbon, but additionally, the new spirit must be 
filtered through a minimum of 10 feet of sugar maple charcoal before 
it is put into barrels to be aged.

Jim Murray writes in his book "Classic Bourbon, Tennessee and Rye Whiskey":

"This filtration process, the Lincoln County Process, is better known 
as charcoal mellowing, because some of the larger flavour-carrying 
cogeners in the spirit are trapped" in the four days it takes to 
filter down.

This also adds a kind of sweet, slightly smoky, caramel flavor that 
is different from the flavors that it picks up from aging in charred 
oak barrels.

Before an act of Congress in 1941 recognized Tennessee whiskey as 
distinct, JD was sold as bourbon.  They could still sell it as 
bourbon if they cared to, but there is obviously a marketing 
advantage to having it stand out as different.

I don't especially care for JD but George Dickel No. 12 is a 
incredibly fine Tennessee whisky (their spelling).

Regarding Ancient Age bourbon, a particularly fine bourbon (IMO) is 
the ten-year-old Ancient Ancient Age, available only in Kentucky. 
(Beware, there is also the more widely available, misleadingly 
similarly named Ancient Ancient Age 10 Star, which is only six years 
old, as well other AA's).

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:08:27 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: consumption

Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> wrote from Chapel Hill, NC:

>A unit is defined as a 12oz glass of beer, 1.5oz of hard liquor, or 4oz (I
>think) of wine.

5 oz. of wine is equivalent.  Using typical strengths of each:

12 oz. beer  at  5% abv = 0.6 oz. alcohol
5 oz. wine  at  12 abv = 0.6 oz. alcohol
1.5 oz. spirits  at  40% abv (80 proof) = 0.6 oz. alcohol

For the rationalizers (and I'm sure I've been guilty of this), two 
imperial pints ( at 19.6 oz) (brimful, as specified by CAMRA) of IPA at 
a typical 6.1% abv. is not two drinks!

39.2 oz  at  6.1% abv = 2.4 oz. alcohol, or four units.

I think the Australian government says that one standard drink is 15 
ml. alcohol, or about 0.51 oz.  Not sure about others.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:36:48 -0400
From: cboyer at ausoleil.org
Subject: Mailing Homebrew, Civil Disobedience and Arguments Against.

>In a communal act of civil disobedience, 
>I suggest the HBD support a national "mail your homebrew" day. 
>What say ye?

While on one hand this might seem like a wonderful idea and a good statement of 
the silliness of the law, on the other hand one must give very careful 
consideration to the political climate that envelopes us all currently.  The 
stakes of doing so are high and the collateral damage could well be far more 
than you first imagine.

Alcohol, rightly or wrongly, is being blamed for a number of society's ills and 
is under attack from every corner.  There are neo-prohibition forces that 
resist any liberalization of laws concerning alcohol.  Law enforcement 
officials point out the carnage created by too many drunken drivers.  Health 
officials point out the misery and human tragedy that is alcoholism.  Religious 
forces oppose alcohol according to their doctrines.  These are powerful forces, 
and to ignore them is a recipe for failure.  To willfully flout them is a 
recipe for disaster, IMHO.

Their first argument would be simple, and after a fashion, they have a 
point: "We cannot allow homebrew, or any brew, to be mailed because it could 
easily fall into the hands of minors."  While we all realize there could be 
controls to prevent this, raising the spectre of it would probably be enough to 
scuttle any attempt to change the law.  In politics, it is the sizzle, not the 
steak, that sells.

That said, should a group advocate acts that violate our alcohol laws, they 
will undoubtedly loosen a Sword of Damocoles upon their heads.  One should not 
forget that mailing banned materials through the US Postal Service is a federal 
offense.  As so many nations have found out in recent history, if there is one 
group you do NOT want seeking your heads, it is the federal government of the 
United States.  Further, should an *organization* choose to advocate this, they 
may well be in violation of RICO, the anti-racketeering laws.  It could, quite 
frankly, mean the end of HBD.

Only slightly less formidable are the individual states that would enforce 
their own laws.  Like the federal government, it is most unwise to actively 
seek their wrath.  Should you violate a given state's laws, if the offense is 
serious enough, you may be asked (through extradition) to answer for your 
crimes.  While prison may not be the end result, serious personal economic 
damage through lawyer fees, fines and lost time is certain.

The old adage applies:  be careful of what you ask for -- you may just get it.

Fortunately, the US is a representative republic, and it is possible to change 
laws if it is pursued in a rational and reasoned way.  Yes, in the case of 
alcohol control laws, it would be quite difficult.  It may not happen, given 
the wide array of opponents with ready-made arguments that would be faced.  But 
it can be done.  In this country, getting a loud voice in any legislature means 
one thing:  a lot of money and dedication.  Perhaps the best solution would be 
to make a substantial contribution to HBD and then have the oprganization 
pursue this in the usual ways in the halls of Congress.

If you choose to violate the law, let your conscience and prudence be your 
guide.

- -------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/


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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:08:56 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Alcoholism

Bill,

The evidence is against your opinion.  I don't suppose I'm going to 
change your mind, but I can't let you pollute others' with your virulent 
antipathy.  I have to say that I used to think as you do, but after 
watching a number of close friends struggle through recovery from their 
alcoholic behavior, and after learning more about alcoholism, I no 
longer believe that alcholism is "learned behavior" any more than 
schizophrenia is "learned behavior."

Many studies, most of them performed in European countries (the ones 
that I'm aware of were performed in Germany and Denmark) show that 
children of alcoholics, *whether they ever lived with their genetic 
parents or not*, are at increased risk of becoming alcoholic.  If one 
parent is alcoholic, the risk is approximately 2x, with both parents 
alcoholic, the risk is 4x that of the population at large.  (I'm sorry, 
I don't have the citations with me at work, I can get them and post them 
if there is interest.) 

There is one "form" of alcoholism that is inherited only in the male 
line with 100% "penetrance" (to use a genetics term).  That is, for 
these men, their sons, if they drink, will become alcoholics, usually in 
their mid-teens. This is true whether they live with their father or 
not. This is very strong evidence of a gene on the Y chromosome that 
predisposes these individuals to alcoholism.

Certain genetic pools show increased rates of alcoholism over the 
general population, and certain genetic pools have greatly decreased 
rates.  The general "white" population has a rate of about 10%, while 
those of Mediterranean descent, including Italian, Jewish and Arab 
peoples have rates of 1%-2%.  The Irish, on the other hand have a rate 
of over 20%.

Is it a diabetic's "fault" that they developed diabetes?  Well, given 
that sugar consumption can accellerate the onset of "type 2" diabetes, 
there is clearly some "fault" there.  The same is true of alcoholism.  
But since our society chooses to blame alcoholism on "moral weakness" 
rather than recognizing that there is a genetic *component*, we put much 
more blame and shame on the alcoholic than we do on the diabetic.  This 
actually inhibits alcoholics from seeking treatment, doing more damage 
to the individual, their family and to society as a whole in the long term.

Once alcoholism is recognized, it is certainly the individual's 
responsibility to seek treatment and to keep to that treatment.  Here, 
if anywhere, is where we can put "blame."  And it is definitely anyone's 
responsibility to own up to and to accept the consequences of their 
actions.  I am not, by any means, advocating leniency for drunken 
driving, for abusers, or for any other harm to others caused by a 
person's alcoholism.  I have never felt that "I was drunk" is a good 
reason to excuse penalties for any bad behavior.

An alcoholic is a "victim" only in as much as we are all "vicitims" of 
our genetic makeup.  Some people have inherited risk of heart disease, 
some have inherited risk of schizophrenia, some have inherited risk of 
high blood pressure, some have inherited risk of diabetes, some have 
inherited risk of cancer, and some have inherited risk of alcoholism.  I 
don't know why this is hard to accept.  We have to live with our genes, 
and we have to learn to live in spite of our genes.

'nuff said.

=Spencer




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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:05:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ted Teuscher <t_teuscher at yahoo.com>
Subject: Over oxygenation?

I just purchased an inline oxygenation system from
Beer, Beer, and More Beer. No instructions came with
it. I was wondering if it was possible to OVER
oxyegenate chilled wort? If so, does anyone have
suggestions on oxygenation techniques using an inline
system?

Cheers,
Ted Teuscher
Lenexa, KS (aka Kansas City)




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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:24:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: hops and caps

Dave Clark asks:

> I was at a garden center yesterday and I spotted a vine with a
> familiar leaf growing up and over a trellis they were using as an
> ornament.  It was a hop plant with leaves as big as my hand but 
> they were a golden yellow  color.  It was a very healthy looking
> plant and didn't show any sign yet of producing flowers. 

It is possibly Sunbeam.  I've grown those, Mt.Hood, and Santiam,
as well as (occasionally) tending various other varieties at the
local historical museum garden.  Sunbeam are definitely yellow,
at least mine are.  I thought it was lack of nitrogen in that one
spot until I knew better, but doses of fertilizer just give me bigger,
healthier still-yellow leaves!  However, I can't tell you for 100% 
that these are yours, nor provide a source for definite identification.

If they are Sunbeam, then that's a hop that you'll probably never
see on the (hop pellet) market because it's a very low yielder, 
which is why I thought I'd plant them, actually.  I'll see this year
how they are, maybe.  (Last year with Japanese beetle attacks and no
hope of a big harvest anyway, I sprayed with Malathion to make sure 
the leaves were not eaten and would give the plant a good start for
this year, so obviously no point in picking LAST year's hops!  Blech!)

>From the Oregon Hop Commission regarding Sunbeam:
___________________________________________________________________

Ornamental

Pedigree: 1994 cross of Saazer with a tetraploid European-type 
          aroma male, however there was open pollination from Comet.

Maturity: Early to medium early (about August 22-26 in Western Oregon) 

Yield:    Medium to low yield, not intended for commercial production 
          but both could be suitable for home brewing. 

Growth Habit: Good 

Disease Reaction: Slightly susceptible to downy mildew. 

Cone-Structure: Sunbeam - medium size and yellowish green. 

General Trade Perception: Sunbeam and Bianca have identical leaf color;
they differ in the coloration of the main stem. Sunbeam has bright
colored red stems throughout the growing season, which makes it
particularly attractive in contrast to its yellow lemon colored
foliage. Bianca has a reddish brown stripe on older stems, which may
turn a reddish brown color. Due to their sensitivity to sunlight in
midsummer, it is recommended that both cultivars are grown in
semi-shaded locations where they maintain their attractive foliage
throughout the growing season. Their aroma and flavor potential is
similar to that of European aroma hops. 

Alpha Acids 4-5% Beta Acids 2.5% 
_______________________________________________________________________

Whoops!  Mine are in full sun for half the day.  And no sign of the
bright coloured red stems on mine, though I'm reasonably sure of the
pedigree, having bought them from a reputable vendor,  They are,
hoever, indeed yellow.

More info on this and lots of other varieties at:
http://hop.oda.state.or.us/ohc.html

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:37:15 -0500
From: mas4786 <mas4786 at nebrwesleyan.edu>
Subject: RE: Alcoholism

In response to the recent writing about addiction being a learned behavior:
I am not quite sure what Bill's background is but I certainly hope it is not 
healthcare related.
First of all drug addiction (alcohol is considered to be a drug) is classified 
as mental illness.  Like wise most addictions have a significant amount of 
physical pathologies associated with the mental illness aspect. It is quite 
absurd to talk about learning to have a mental illness. That is the equivalent 
to saying someone learned to be depressed or someone learned to have cancer.  
Addiction is a mental/medical disorder that certainly has some social/cultural
influence but it is by no means the absolute cause.  People do not merely 
learn addiction; it is a multitude of things that lead to and cause it, 
including advertisements and binge drinking.

One of those things that has a great influence on addictive behavior is in 
fact a genetic disposition.  Again this is not the sole cause of addiction but 
it does play a critical role just as the family unit and society do.  
Furthermore this genetic link has been well validated statistically so it is 
really not a matter of whether you believe it or not bill, it is the truth!

Lastly, implying that addiction can be learned means that it can logically be 
unlearned.  Anyone who has dealt with addiction knows that the first thing you 
are counseled on is that addiction is a life long disease.  You are an addict 
for life and you can't unlearn that. It is always there and people who are 
"dry" just have found ways to cope and "ignore" this impulse, so to speak.

I certainly agree that our culture in the America is very lacking when it 
comes to dealing with alcohol.  My step father is from Holland and so I am 
well acquainted with the European attitude towards alcohol and quite frankly I 
think we could stand to gain quite a bit if we took a page out of their book.  
I also don't feel addicts are victims and that it is certainly not ok to be an 
addict, but they are  not criminals!  Addiction is a very complex and not very 
well understood disease but it is in fact a disease and curing this disease is 
certainly not expedited by attitudes like Bill.

If we are going to make comments in this forum I think it would be wise choose 
some that are not offensive and not ignorant.  Bill, sorry and respectfully, 
you don't know sh$it about what you are talking about, so stick to brewing.

Marc Sintek



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:36:09 -0400
From: "Waltman, Dennis" <PDWALTMAN at sablaw.com>
Subject: RE: Mailing Homebrew  [research, development or testing]


I think the line about "removal for research, development or 
testing" is often used for sending to Competitions.  I actually 
thought the statue at one time said for evaluation, but it may 
have changed.   As we all know, competitions are really events 
where people get their beer evaluated and comments provided as 
to whether the beer meets a standard, and then what changes should 
be made to better meet that standard.   Such evaluation is a form 
of testing and could reasonably fall under the testing portion 
(but I am not an attorney, so what do I know).  

Also be aware that States have their own statues, and in many 
cases further restrict the federal ones.

Dennis Waltman


Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:23:35 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Mailing beer

26 USC 5053(e) Beer for personal or family use (the law that legalized the
hobby we so dearly love)...goes on to describe: not subject to tax...no more
than 200 gallons...and must be 18.

I have seen a couple of articles floating around which state something to
the effect of "may not be removed from the home except for competition or
organized tasting events."

I can't find this in statute.  5053(c) provides for removal free from
taxation for laboratory analysis and 5053(d) allows for removal for
research, development, or testing; but I can't find anything that talks
about "removal for competition or organized tasting" as the various homebrew
club articles spell out.

If anyone knows what title and section this is, please email me direct.

Thanks,

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego

firm footer
=============================



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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:42:17 -0400
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: Crawling on my Knees

Thanks to Jeff Sparrow for spelling out why there is a cap on the size of the
pub crawl at the AHA convention.  This is completely logical. 

There is something that the organizers could assist us late comers
with...that is to have a schedule of when the official crawl will be at the
venues.  Armed with that information and possible alternative locations to
visit, I'm sure we can keep everyone happy and be out of the way.  I do want
to mingle with as many homebrewers as possible on the crawl.  It would be
nice to be able to be in the same establishment at the same time, when we can
be accommodated. 

I see that Chris Knight must have some insight into potential alternatives.
I hope that other options will come to light here in HBD or at the
conference.  

I'll do my part and be there.  I hope the hosts can help the people who
missed the opportunity to join in 'properly' have a good time.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL


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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:59:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject:  Re: hops and caps

   I know there is a (mostly) ornamental variety of hops named something
like "Golden".  My mother planted it a couple years ago and she says it
grows like crazy (in Western Washington).  I do remember looking it up on
one of the lists of hop varieties and it was descended from a fairly
common brewing hop (can't remember which one right now...Brewer's Gold,
maybe?), so the description said it would probably be acceptable for
brewing even though that wasn't the intended purpose.
   On a similar note, can someone post some links for the variety
decsription pages that used to be available from the Oregon agricultural
extension?  I can't seem to find them online.  (Hence the fairly sketchy
nature of my comments above.)

 -Travis
[1.8, 98.3] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:42:07 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Vanilla

I bottled a Scottish Light Ale last week, and when I noticed that it was 
really on the mild side (as planned) in flavor, I decided to 'tump it up' 
a bit with some vanilla extract, so I put about 1 oz in the last 1/2 batch 
(2.25 gal) and bottled.  It smelled and tasted quite strong then, but I 
just sampled one, and the flavor is quite nice...unexpectedly so..

If anyone would like the recipe I will share it..

Happy Brewing!
 ..Darrell
    Plattsburgh,NY 44 41 58 N Latitude
                   73 27 12 W Longitude

 [544.9 miles, 68.9]Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:45:56 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: alcoholism

Bill Wible writes:

> Spencer, I've NEVER bought that "Genetic Predisposition"
> stuff. I refuse to believe that alcoholism is in anyone's 
> genes, or that it is a medical condition.  That sounds like 
> the typical American "I'm a victim" cry.
> 

I won't try to refute this, as this is not one of my areas of expertise. The
more perceptive among you will be thinking, when has that stopped me before.
;-)

However, my wife is a Nursing instructor who is currently doing her Master's
thesis on beliefs related to addictions. I asked her to write a rebuttal to
your musings, which I have attached below.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg

      First of all, "alcoholic," alcoholism" and "drug addict" (and other
terms of a similar nature) are outdated terms as they "label" the affected
individual.  The affected person is said to be an individual with an alcohol
dependency or a drug dependency. It is recognized that drug and alcohol use
are ineffective methods of coping with emotional, family, social, financial,
vocational or physical problems.  The use of drugs and alcohol is a
"Band-aid" solution that temporarily masks unresolved life issues but does
not contribute to their resolution.

Graham, Schultz & Wilford of the American Society of Addiction Medicine
(1998) define alcohol dependency as being a "primary, chronic disease with
genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development
and manifestations."  A rapidly expanding research base has identified that
drug dependence, including that of alcohol, involves changes in brain
function by altering neurotransmitter functioning (Nutt, 1996).  We now know
in great detail the brain mechanisms through which drugs acutely modify
mood, memory, perception, and emotional states. Using drugs repeatedly over
time changes brain structure and function in fundamental and long-lasting
ways that can persist long after the individual stops using them. Addiction
comes about through an array of neuro-adaptive changes and the laying down
and strengthening of new memory connections in various circuits in the
brain. We do not yet know all the relevant mechanisms, but the evidence
suggests that those long-lasting brain changes are responsible for the
distortions of cognitive and emotional functioning that characterize
addicts, particularly including the compulsion to use drugs that is the
essence of addiction (Leshner, 2001). 

Hoeschen (2000) stresses that it is crucial that substance dependence be
viewed as a chronic illness and that an awareness of this needs to exist in
order for health care providers to avoid generating a negative emotional
reaction to affected individuals.   For individuals with severe alcohol
problems, moderation of drinking behaviours serves no purpose and because of
alterations to physical health, poor interpersonal relations, poor
vocational history and problems with self-esteem, the individual is advised
to be abstinent.  

A review of the Harvard Twins Study (Tsuang, Bar, Harley & Lyons, 2001)
noted that genetic factors contributed significantly to the risk for
lifetime drug abuse or dependence and that the probability of developing an
illicit drug disorder is affected by genes and unique environmental factors.
Kendler, Karkowski, Neale and Prescott (2000) found that, among Caucasian
men who are twins, genetic factors factor largely in the development of
heavy drug use, abuse and dependence.   Kendler and Prescott (1998), in a
study of female twins, found that the vulnerability for cocaine abuse and
dependence was substantially influenced by genetic factors.  Tsuang, Lyons,
Meyer, Doyle, Eisen, Goldberg et al (1998) observed that genetic factors
also increase the probability of an individual who has abused one category
of drug was associated with a marked increase in the probability of abusing
other categories of drugs.

However, care must be taken to ensure that a belief in a genetic basis for
addiction is tempered with the recognition that numerous other complex
social and psychological factors lead to the development of substance abuse.
The Addictions Foundation of Manitoba endorses the biopsychosocial model,
one of the predominant models in contemporary addictions treatment, which
recognizes that addiction encompasses a complex array of biological,
psychological and social determinants with no one factor creating substance
abuse independently and no one treatment approach being applicable to every
individual.  
      
Evelyn Lundeen, RN, BN


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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:02:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Roger Deschner <rogerd at uic.edu>
Subject: Re: AHA Conference Attendance & Pub Crawl

Martin, you are essentially on target. We will be trying to accomodate
those of you on the "unofficial pub crawl" by providing maps and
directions, at the conference registration table at 5:00.

The problem, more than bus capacities, is the capaity of the pubs
themselves. The Map Room, in particular, is not that large, so we had to
limit the official pub crawl to 60. Goose Island also has limited
capacity. You may recall that there was a tragic nightclub stampede in
February here, where a bunch of people died. Ever since then, the
Chicago Fire Department has been cracking down on overcrowded bars and
nightclubs, with surprise late-night inspections. We don't want any of
our friends in the beer business to get into trouble due to our pub
crawl, so we are going to be doing some active managing of the
situation.

We're going to be "crowd balancing", with a network of people stationed
at each place with cell phones, trying to forward people to the emptiest
place. Basically, the earlier you can make the Map Room stop, the
better. Then move on to Goose Island, which will get progressively
emptier as the evening wears on. Rock Bottom will also be full early and
gradually empty out.

Also, on the alternate direction sheet we will be handing out, we are
including several great places not on the official pub crawl, such as
Govnor's Pub (city outlet of suburban brewpub), the historic Berghoff
(famous for German food, and brews its own beer in Monroe WI) and the
wonderful Clark Street Ale House (great selection of US micros), all of
which are reachable by the "L" trains. And for the baseball fans, the
Boston Red Sox are in town to play the Chicago White Sox at US Cellular
Field. (plenty of tickets available) Unless the game goes extra innings,
you will still have time for at least one pub crawl stop afterwards. (I
often go to the Rock Bottom rooftop beer garden after ball games.)

So, plan on it; just bring along some patience to put up with bouncers
who might make you stand in line to get into a place, and be willing to
visit the pubs in a different order than you might have originally
planned. We want to get everybody into everyplace they want to go.

In addition to your Rock Bottom discount card, be sure to bring along
your AHA Membership Card which is good for a discount at Goose Island.

And, it really is great to live in a place where the "L" trains run
24/7! No matter how late you stay out, you will be able to get back to
the hotel on the train, which runs every 10 minutes until 2:00AM, and
then every 30 minutes the rest of the night.

Those of us organizing this thing here in Chicago have worked for two
years to make it work, and now that it is actually happening, we're down
to just looking forward to having all of you come and we'll all have a
great time.

P.S. Us organizers will be out of email contact starting Wednesday
morning, so we will not be able to answer any last-minute questions
after Tuesday afternoon.

Roger Deschner                                            rogerd at uic.edu
==== Member, Chicago Beer Society -- 1996 Homebrew Club Of The Year ====


>You bet I'll be at the conference.  It was obvious almost a year ago that
>this was going to be a stellar event.
>
>One disappointing distraction is that the pub crawl is sold out.  I see that
>the Chicago Beer Society (CBS) has put together a nice night that includes
>some food and transportation arrangements.  I assume that the food and
>return-trip bus capacity is what is limiting the number of people they can
>include in the event.
>
>The good thing is that their capacity limitation will not deter us.  Those
>interested in tagging along with the pub crawl should also meet near the
>conference registration desk at the hotel at 5 pm on Wednesday.  That's also
>when the 'real' pub crawl meets.  Tag-alongs will have to make their own
>transportation arrangements (i.e. buy their own CTA pass), buy their own
>food, and buy their own beer.  It might be a little more expensive this way,
>but what the heck, this is a vacation!
>
>I see that the one-day CTA passes are $5 and you can buy one at the Rosemont,
>O'Hare, or Midway CTA stations (or others).  I assume that the CBS has
>garnered some special food and beer deals with the various breweries and
>taverns.  We'll probably lose out on those, oh well!  I suppose you should
>remember to bring your shiny new Rock Bottom VIP card on this trip so that
>you can get a nice deal at that place.
>
>So, don't despair if you missed signing up for the pub crawl.  You can still
>enjoy the night with your beer 'buds' (oops, I mean beer 'celebrators') on
>your own pub crawl.
>
>Less than a week to go!
>
>Martin Brungard
>Tallahassee, FL
>
>
>


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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:58:42 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dave's question about hops...

Dave Clark asks about hops...
>hop plant with leaves as big as my hand but they were a golden yellow
color.
>Anyone have an idea what variety this might be?

Sounds like it may be a Japanese hop (humulus japonicus), which is not the 
same as hummulus lupulus, the beermaking hop.  They are commonly used for 
ornamental and medicinal purposes.  I'm not even sure that they produce a 
hop cone, although the ones I saw may have been male plants.  The other 
variety it may be is SUNBEAM.  It is listed by freshops as a "Saaz hybrid 
with golden yellow leaves, prefers not full sun"   You can check out a 
description of most of them at http://www.freshops.com/rhizinfo.html




Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at (1918, 298) Miles Apparent Rennerian
Vancouver, BC, Canada.



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---