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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Smoked malt strength (David Edge)
  RE: Kids and Beer ("Dennis Lewis")
  Child raising and alcohol access ("Joseph Gerteis")
  Re: Ma(x)imum Strength? ("Pete Calinski")
  re: Maximum Strength? ("-S")
  What is "hopfenbitter"? (David Harsh)
  Re: Alcohol Evaporation ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Beer Culture ... ("-S")
  "Anheuser lager"? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Maximum strength (AJ)
  Re;  "In memory yet green" ("Bill Frazier")
  Norse beer ("Edward D")


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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:56:01 +0100
From: David Edge <david.j.edge at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Smoked malt strength

There was a discussion of the strength of smoke in peated and rauch malts a 
week or two agoand I'm not sure we quite got to the bottom of it.

According to Ray Daniels and Geoff Larson in "Smoked Beers", Bairds supply 
peated malts in the US at "strengths" of low (c5ppm), medium (c10ppm) and 
high (c16ppm) phenols. My memory is that Islay whiskies are made with 
somewhat peatier malts - Ardbeg 100ppm phenols and Laphroaig 80ppm. Phenol 
levels for rauch aren't quoted, but are believed to be lower than even the 
low phenol. I'll ask when I'm in Bamberg this week.

It certainly pays to know exactly what you have in the grainstore and what 
the recipe assumes!


David Edge
Signalbox Brewery
Derby, UK




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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:56:33 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at ldc.cc>
Subject: RE: Kids and Beer

c.d. pritchard espouses (correctly, IMO):

> I think kids raised observing their parents drink responsibly and drinking
> themselves with parental guidance *TEND* to be have far fewer drinking
> problems later in life.  Why?  1) Some friends raised their 3
> kids with completely free access to beer and wine-  was kinda shocking
> at the time to see a 4 year old pull a beer from the fridge, drink a bit and
> give the rest to their mom or dad.  They've turned out to be fine adults.
> 2) Several aquaintances who practiced exactly the opposite approach
> (total prohibition for the kids and not drinking themselves- well, at least
> in front of the kids ;-) had kids which had problems with alcohol when they
> got free from their parents.

I've been meaning to chime in on the kids and beer subject... First I
have to say that I have three kids (7.5, 6, 1.5) and all girls. My goal
is this: by the time they are 13-14 (not too far away  :-( )and their friends
are saying "look, I swiped some Bud Light! Let's pound!" my kids are going
to think "I'm not drinking that crap. I get better stuff at home."

I don't want them figuring out what alcohol is and how to drink by hanging
out with a bunch of rookies and miscreants.

Very frequently while I'm pouring one from the tap, my kids will ask for
one. I have several small glasses from beer tastings that are full with
only 3 or 4 ounces in them. I let them pick the style (more often than
not it's the dark ones...) and give them the glass.

I've rarely seen them finish it. They take a sip or three and then set
it down. I don't miss the opportunity to tell them about it, where the
style comes from, what it's made from, etc. ("There goes Dad again,
jabbering on about beer...") I want them to think about it in more than
the one dimension of alcohol.

They "help" me brew, ask questions about it, and so on thru every process.
The oldest is now big enough to run the capper, which is excellent for the
10 gal batches of Bavarian weissbier. These times are fantastic for exposing
the kids to the entire process (chemistry, botany, physics, thermodynamics,
fluid dynamics, microbiology, mathematics, process control, personal safety,
history, food science, physiology, etc.)

I wonder if they'll want to do a batch for the 4th grade science fair? ;-)

Dennis Lewis
Warren, OH -- Home of the Little Brewer Training Facility
Veni, Vidi, Bibi. I came, I saw, I drank.





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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:57:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540 at elvis.com>
Subject: Child raising and alcohol access

CD Pritchard brought up the thread about childraising
and alcohol access.  I'm basically of the same opinion
- -- if you want your kids to act responsibly with
alcohol, model responsible behavior with alcohol.  But
CD's post jogged my memory about a really interesting
case: college campuses, where binge drinking can of
course be a problem.

Several years ago, in the DARE heyday, most big
campuses were trying a "scare 'em straight" approach,
sponsoring posters and ads in the college papers about
binge drinking statistics, accompanied by pictures of
people puking in toilets, etc.  The problem was that it
didn't work!  Studies showed that by seeing the
statistics on binge drinking only -- e.g., "30% of
students have 8 or more drinks per weekend night!!",
students actually had a skewed picture in their heads. 
They thought that the "average" student drank much
more, and much more irresponsibly, than they actually
did.  When some of the ivies switched to advertising
the *average* numbers -- e.g., most students have fewer
than 5 drinks per week, or 60% of students never drink
more than 3 drinks in a single day," they saw the binge
drinking levels drop.  Most of the big schools now go
with this approach.

Joe Gerteis
Minneapolis MN

- -------------------------------------------------
Get your free  at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com!
http://www.elvis.com



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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:42:13 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Ma(x)imum Strength?

A.J. deLange says, "Thesis confirmed - alcohol leaves concentrated water
solutions very
quickly."

All the more reason to down that shot of Wild Turkey 101 as soon as it is
poured.



Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:22:00 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Maximum Strength?

AJ,

Could you describe how you assayed ethanol levels so accurately ?   I have
performed some test fermentations which should (by Balling and similar
formulae) come to 15-18%abv, but I've never attempted a particularly
accurate assay of the alc level.

There are numerous destinations for sugar carbons  ....  after creation of
pyruvate these carbons can wind up as acetaldehyde, acetolactate,
lactate,oxaloacetate, acetylCoA and numerous organic acids.   Most of the
acetaldehyde forms ethanol yet some forms ketones like diacetyl,
a-ketobutyate and pentanedione.  Some acetyl-CoA forms sterol, citrate and
fatty acids.  Ethanol can also disappear as ethyl acetate and alkyl esters
of fatty acids.   Some of the above is subsumed in the description "gets
converted  into yeast biomass", but I often wonder just how accurately the
simple linear estimates of yeast assimilation of carbon from sugar are when
brewing yeast are stressed in very high gravity ferments.

One clearcut case of the above is glycerol.   Glycerol appears in beer in
relation to yeast growth.  As yeast use pyruvate for biomass rather than
energy they build up NADH and have to balance this excess by reducing
dihydroxyacetone phosphate to glycerol phosphate and then glycerol.
Conventional beers may have up to 2gm/L of glycerol.  I have reports of high
gravity beers (13.1-14.3%abv) containing 8-11gm /L of glycerol.   In this
case a lot of sugar ends up as glycerol.

Another consideration is that not all of the sugar may have been
anaerobically fermented, some (usually a tiny amount) is consumed by aerobic
glycolysis which produces no ethanol.  The amount lost this way might
increase with additional  aeration and aerobic pitching

The ethanol itself can be aerobically catabolized by most common brewing
yeasts.   Yes - the yeast have every intention of consuming the ethanol in
beer and only the elimination of air can prevent it.    This may not be a
small factor if air is permitted to access finished beer.    I have several
references that in commercial whisk[e]y distilling  a wort is made with a
reasonable  gravity highly fermentable wort (SG=1.050-1.055, FG=0.998-1.000)
and the entire fermentation period is 30 to 72 hours.   The claim is made
that longer fermentation times result in considerable losses of ethanol due
to aerobic catabolism by yeast - resulting in around a 5% loss of ethanol in
some unspecified time period.

More questions than answers this time.

 -S(teve)








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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:23:06 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: What is "hopfenbitter"?

Greetings-
	While traveling in Germany last month, I purchased a bottle of 
"Hopfenbitter" at a roadside stand outside of Tettnang.  The lady 
running the stand told me it was used to produce a local beverage (I 
asked - not beer).  The label says it is made from the authentic old 
family recipe and that it is 32% alcohol.
	Obviously, its a hop extract - but does anyone know how to make the 
"local beverage" that she was referring to?  She didn't know.

	On a side note, the drought conditions around Tettnang are pretty bad 
right now.  As of the solstice, the hop bines weren't even to the top 
of their supports in the fields.  Whether that will affect the harvest 
or not at this point is anyones guess, but it was well into the 90s 
when we were there and it "never" gets that hot until maybe August 
according to the locals.

Dave Harsh
Bloatarian Brewing League				Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:22:52 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Evaporation

A.J. deLange wondered if:

1) Has anyone else here had experiences which tend to confirm or deny my
suspicion?


I posted recently an anecdotal story about this, but I'll briefly repeat it 
here.  A winery client made a Pinot Noir vin gris, and the grapes had very 
high sugars that year.  It finished over 14% (the tax boundary), and so they 
left it in oak for a while until the alchohol dropped to 13.9%.  I think 
alcohol evaporation is fairly well known in the wine industry.  They keep 
the barrels topped up, and so the alcohol must escape through the pores in 
the oak...the process is much slower than what you described in your beaker 
test.  I wish I could remember the exact time that the wine spent in the 
barrel to drop a given percent, but alas, I was more concerned with bottling 
lines at the time!

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:52:48 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Culture ...

Alexandre Enkerli posts some very interesting trans-cultural musings on
alcohol consumption patterns.

>...  alcohol problems in the MidWest was that young people there
>don't know  how to drink.

Yes, it's extremely clear to me that here in the US the prohibitionist
attitudes toward alcohol coupled with legal access at an age were peer
influence rather than family influence dominates is a source of much of the
late-adolescent excesses.  As others have said it would be far better to
teach children to drink moderately and sensible at home.  Of course the same
could be said of sex education and a myriad other set of taboo topics.

I would like to point out Alexandre, that binge drinking is not a new
American phenomena, but is ascribed to far northern Europeans some 18
centuries ago - modern Scandinavia, Denmark, UK, Ireland where drinking to
excess was part of certain annual festivals.

>In my mind, it goes with the fairly restrictive culture
>that is prevalent in the region.

That's a bit unfair to the MidWest as the same youth binge drinking issue
appears across the US.   This youth binge drinking appear to be a serious
problem in other cultures such as Iceland.

One of the Scandanvian countries (which ?) has a rather severe tax on
alcohol and so there are regular binge drinking episodes by adults on
cruises and out-of-country trips.   Apparently treating adults or
adolescents like children causes them to act accordingly.

 -S







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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:19:27 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: "Anheuser lager"?

Brewers

I'm back from California and catching up on email, and

able to
post email
that doesn't
look like
this now.

Not sure what was wrong with the comcast web browser email.

Anyway, while strolling the Venice beach, I spotted a large sign on a 
building that said:

Anheuser Lager
Ten Brewmasters
Four Continents
One Beer

With a large picture of a green bottle labeled "Anheuser Lager."

It appeared to be a new sign.  I've never heard of this beer, and a 
google search turned up only one broken link which was something 
about marketing "Anheuser lager and ale."

Any idea what this beer might be?  I assume it's an A/B product, but 
it's hard to imagine what they mean by "one beer."  Is it a test 
market?  The green bottle made me think they were looking for the 
import market.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:28:34 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Maximum strength

In response to -S's comments

I measure alcohol using the ASBC MOA (Beer 4a?) in which 100 mL of beer  
with 50 mL of rinse water (for the volumetric flask) is distilled and 
almost 100 mL distillate is collected (in the same flast). The 
distillate is made up to 100 mL and the  specific gravity of the 
distillate is then measured in a U-tube density meter which incorporates 
the OIML tables which seem to agree with the ASBC tables in the range 
below 10% which is the upper limit of the ASBC tables but we're out of 
that range in this case anyway. Because the same volumetric flask is 
used bias in filling uncertainty is eliminated - IOW one only has to 
deal with the random error in setting the meniscus on the mark and it 
doesn't really matter whether the mark is at 100.1 or 100.0 mL. 
Nonetheless this random error is the largest contributor to the error 
budget (if I recall correctly).

With respect to "yeast biomass" DeClerk points out that the 0.11 grams 
of yeast per 2.0665 (? memory again) grams sugar is an over estimate for 
lagers and an underestimate for ales and that the actual number may 
differ by as much as 50% from this. Lumping in the fact that ketones, 
acetic acid, vicinal diketones etc are all present at mg/L levels with 
this uncertainty there still isn't enough variation to explain the large 
discrepancy (9 P out of 43).

And I guess I'm skeptical that it's the diauxic feature of yeast 
metabolism. Why would they start to munch alcohol when there was all 
that sugar around? I have a vague recollection that the brewing strains 
don't exhibit this behaviour but I may be thinking of something else. 
The 5% loss in whisky making is interesting though.

Now what really catches my eye is the glycerol. That might be the answer 
(or part of the answer - I'm still convinced that evaporation has 
something to do with it). I always thought it interesting that the 
Germans converted their beer production facilities to the production of 
glycerine during WWI. They dosed the ferment with metabite rendering 
acetaldehyde unable to oxidize NADH. The modern way to assay for 
glycerine involves one of those little Boehringer-Manheim enzyme kits 
which are expensive, have to be shipped over night, be kept in the 
fridge, are only good for a few tests, have a short shelf life and  (did 
I mention it?) are expensive. Maybe DeClerk has something on how it was 
done in his day. I wonder if I could con another bottle for a glycerine 
test?

Good comments - thanks!

A.J.



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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:08:46 -0500
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re;  "In memory yet green"

John discusses his Vienna beer that is changing in taste;
"9-5-02, an uncomplex blonde beer slightly reminiscent of henikin."
"9-10-02, strong hint of peaches.  tastes sweet at"
" 9/30/02, very faint taste of peaches in a smooth mild beer"
"10/13/02  now a light ale with a nice creamy white head.  has lost all of
the fruty aftertaste"

Back to me...I've seen quite a few HBD posts like this over the years.
Indeed, I used to make fine tasting beers only to be disappointed with
them shortly after priming and bottling.  It was pointed out at the time
the tastes that I did not like were most probably associated with yeast
fermentation of the priming sugar.  I believe this is valid.  Now days I
don't open a bottle conditioned beer until it's been in the bottle for
one month.  Then the flavor is relatively stable, especially if stored
cold.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:50:46 +0800
From: "Edward D" <edwardd at dodo.com.au>
Subject: Norse beer

Norse beer.



I am looking for information on the types of beer that the ancient Norse
drank. There is a themed party being planed for a few months from now. What
should I be looking at in terms of alcohol color flavor hoping levels other
spices used yeast character I need information both on ingredients to use
and the desired final result. Information on the types of mead they made
would also be appreciated.



Edward



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