---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

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        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

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Contents:
  B3's Most Excellent Catalog ("Jennifer/Nathan Hall")
  Catamount (Jay Hellhound)
  betadine (Roy Roberts)
  Taxes and beer styles (Bob Devine)
  Re: Moose Drool (Robert Marshall)
  Artists vs. scientists ("Jerry Zeidler")
  Top Twelve in US Homebrewing ("Louis Bonham")
  How to Hop an Oktoberfest... (Grant Family)
  Re: my wife is pregnant (MATTHEW HAHN)
  Carbonating root beer w/dry ice (MATTHEW HAHN)
  RE: my wife is pregnant!!!!! ("Travis Miller")
  RE: Fermenting large volumes (relatively speaking) (Bill Tobler)
  Wife in primary fermention! ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Re: Rennerian calculator (Jeff Renner)
  First All Grain Replies (croll01)
  Checklists (Lee Ellman)
  Re: Amarit Lager (Jeff Renner)
  Jim's 18 Year Beer (rickdude02)
  peach-y flavor (Wade Hutchison)
  Re: Moose Drool (Phil Sides Jr)
  stupid kegger tricks #2 ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Re: Moose Drool (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  Aluminum Bottles (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  starters and moose drool (beerbuddy)
  Mead Problems and Questions (Denis Bekaert)
  Large batches ("redbeard47.ny")
  Re: Nucleation site pilsner glass (Michael Hetzel)
  Re: Nucleation site pilsner glass (stencil)


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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:16:43 -0400
From: "Jennifer/Nathan Hall" <hallzoo at comcast.net>
Subject: B3's Most Excellent Catalog

If you're a gadgethead, you must see Beer, Beer, and More Beer's new catalog!
Holy S*#t! It rocks. By far the coolest beer equipment catalog I have ever
seen. Almost makes me want to move to California so I could go to their store
(I wish I could). Check it out if you haven't. By the way, no affiliation,
other than the supplies I buy from them.

Nate Hall
BBV Brewery



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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:17:36 -0400
From: Jay Hellhound <whiplash at juno.com>
Subject: Catamount

I don't know if any one else cares, but it turns out that Harpoon Brewing
here 
in New England has discontinued their line of Catamount beers. I was
truly 
saddened to hear a rumor to this effect because Catamount Pale Ale is one
of my 
favorite beers. So I emailed Harpoon and here is the reply I got:

///
Hi Jason,

Thanks for the email.  I'm afraid those rumors you have heard are true. I

understand your concern about losing Catamount beers.  Believe me, we're
not 
excited about it either.  It's a great beer line with a strong New
England 
history that we were happy to continue in 2000 when we bought the
Catamount 
Brewery. While we would like nothing more than to continue brewing
Catamount it 
had become too cost ineffective for us to do so. I can only hope that you
will 
continue to enjoy Harpoon beers.  And I assure you that we will continue
to brew 
some of the best beer around and introduce new and various styles. 
Thanks again 
for your email.

Cheers,

Jeff LaFleur
Harpoon Brewery
///
 
I guess I am gonna HAVE to get started on that Catamount Clone!
 
 
Jay - 
Brewin' Rehab Homebrews at the Boilover Brauhaus in Walpole MA 02081



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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roy Roberts <psilosome at yahoo.com>
Subject: betadine

> Does anyone know if diluted betadine solution can be
> safely used as a sanitizer?

When I worked in a lab I routinely took betadine to use as a
sanitizer for homebrewing.  As far as I know, the contents are
effectively the same as iodophor.  I never had an obvious infection
or any taste issues from the stuff.

 -Roy Roberts
Washington, DC
Taxation Without Representation



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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:34:39 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Taxes and beer styles

This is a topic of long interest to me.  What compels a brewer
to change their recipe?  One would easily understand that at times
it is a new technique (eg, the use of refrigeration), an attempt to
attract a market that isaccustomed to some non-beer (eg, Coors' Zima),
or just basic economics (eg, use of darkly colored malt with low-kilned
malt instead of using all medium-toasted malt).

But surprisingly, tax laws are highly influential.  As Steve
Alexander noted with Guinness's dodge of tax laws by using
some unmalted adjunct, many styles were created due to the tax man.

Taxation has caused not just the smaller beers we have today
but has affected or created numerous styles.  Consider Belgian
lambics that start with a highly dextrinous wort because of how
the beer is taxed.  Or in a weird example, in Japan there is a
"beer" called "happoshu" that skirts the tax laws by having a
level of adjuncts that is too high for the legal definition of
beer.  Or the historical example is that Britain taxed a beer
based on its OG so what did the brewers do?  They lowered the
OG, added more ingrediants that are more fermentable than malt,
and found yeasts that attenuated more.


How the European Union handles all the myriad tax laws will be
entertaining when viewed from a distance!  Many UK citizens used
to cross the Channel for France's lower-taxed beverages.
Unfortunately the result seems to be the death of small brewers,
replaced by a few mega-breweries.

Anheuser-Busch has an advocacy page on US beer taxes:
  http://www.rollbackthebeertax.org/

Bob Devine
in hot and smoky Utah


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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com>
Subject: Re: Moose Drool

Hi William!

Ahh, Moose Drool! God how I wish these guys were
around when I went to the University of Montana. 

Couple things to clarify for you. First off, no, they
didn't lose their legal fight with Moosehead. At least
according to their website, they are still fighting
it. It was Grand Teton Brewing Co. that lost out on
Moose Juice Stout. 

Here's a link to a Missoula newspaper that talks about
the whole mess:
http://www.everyweek.com/News/News.asp?no=2938

As to the brew? Until they were up to full production
in Missoula, they were contract brewing, but I don't
think it was by A/B. It might have been Portland
Brewing, but don't hold me to that. Unfortunately, I
lost the email someone at Bigsky Brewing sent me when
I asked him about it. (Alas, they're STILL not
distributing to California :-(  ).

BTW: A year ago someone asked for a recipe for Moose
Drool. While I didn't have the exact proportion of
ingredients here's what I posted:

> From the Big Sky Brewing website:
> 
> Moose Drool is our Brown Ale.
>  Far and away the best selling draft beer brewed in
> Montana, Moose Drool is chocolate brown
>  in color with a creamy texture.
>  Our brown ale is a malty beer
>  with just enough hop presence 
> to keep it from being too sweet.
>  The aroma also mostly comes from the malt
>  with a hint of spiciness being added
>  by the hops. Moose Drool is brewed with pale,
> caramel, chocolate, and whole black malts;
>  and Kent Goldings, Liberty, and Willamette hops.
>  It has an original gravity of 13 degrees Plato,
>  and is 4.2% alcohol by weight, 5.3% by volume. 
> 
> While its not a recipe, it atleast gives you a
> heads up on what they've got in it! BTW:
> I went to UM, sadly prior to Big Sky opening up, 
> but have had a chance to try this. Great beer
> and great logos!!

Later,

Robert


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:38:26 -0400
From: "Jerry Zeidler" <gjzeidler at suscom.net>
Subject: Artists vs. scientists

Brenden Portolese says "scientific" brewers are no fun...

Hogwash! You've no right to make such proclamations until we've had a few
pints together. I'm sure you'd find me much more fun than 95% of the
population at large, despite my tendency for enjoying the repeatability of
brewing certain recipes I've developed and found very enjoyable.

Resenting the closed-mindedness while having enormous amounts of fun,

Jerry Zeidler
Williamsport, PA






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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:43:54 -0500
From: "Louis Bonham" <lkbonham at houston.rr.com>
Subject: Top Twelve in US Homebrewing 

Greetings all:

As we're in the usual summer slump of discussions here, I thought I'd
posit the following question:  Who are the twelve people who have had
the greatest impact on the US homebrewing scene?

With an allowance for a few pairs of individuals, here's my cut.  In
alphabetical order . . . .

(1)	Pat Babcock / Karl Lutzen.  The HBD supercharged the exchange of
information among homebrewers across the globe.  Had Pat and Karl not
stepped into the breach when the HBD was in serious danger of folding,
and then expanded and maintained it with the growth of the web, this
superb resource would not be what is is today. 

(2)	Pat Baker.  Author of one of the better early homebrew books,
and the driving force in the creation of the BJCP.  I sometimes wonder
what the AHA would be like today if Pat's critiques of it had been
heeded in the early 1990's. 

(3)	Byron Burch.  Long-time homebrewer, homebrew supply retailer,
and author.  Former Homebrewer of the year, and multiple-time meadmaker
of the year. You name it, he's done it. 

(4)	Ray Daniels.  Founder of the Real Ale Festival, author, editor,
brewer. 

(5)	Fred Eckhardt.  Fred has writing about homebrewing and beer
appreciation for over thirty years.  If the American homebrewing
community has a godfather, it's Fred.

(6)	Dr. George Fix.  No comments necessary.  We miss you, George.

(7)	Dave Houseman.  BJCP Grandmaster Level II, AHA BoA Chair, etc.,
etc., etc.  Those of you who know him know how much he has quietly
accomplished behind the scenes.

(8)	Rodney Morris / Conrad Keys.  Rodney Morris invented RIMS
(Recirculating Infusion Mash System), a truly revolutionary concept
which made precise temperature small scale step mashing possible.
However, it was the late Conrad Keys (who developed the SABCO BrewMagic
sytem) who took Rodney's ideas and implemented in one of the original
all-stainless "Big Rig" formats.  Once Conrad showed what was possible
(and George Fix publicly "ate crow" and gave it a rave review after
brewing on the original prototype), there was an explosion of
homebrewing creativity, as this design was reinterpreted to produce
HERMS and myriad other picobrewery systems.

(9)	Charlie Papazian.  While Charlie is neither the demon nor the
deity that some folks suggest him to be, his unique contributions to the
U.S. homebrewing scene cannot be questioned.

(10)	Jackie and Alberta Rager.  Homebrewers extraordinare, authors,
retailers, and supporters of the community.

(11-12) [I'll leave these two blank, so that friends who wonder why
they're not on my list can assume that I meant to put them here. ;-)]

OK, who'd I miss?  Whaddya think?

Louis K. Bonham
 




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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:56:24 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: How to Hop an Oktoberfest...

I'm brewing an Oktoberfest. ProMash says OG=1.061, SRM=15, IBU=(20-30).

How should I distribute my hops? I mean, ~25 IBUs can manifest itself in many
ways and the style guide says nothing about aroma/flavour stats.

Can anyone give me the hopping schedule for their O'fest recipe(s)?



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:04:06 -0400
From: MATTHEW HAHN <mchahn at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: my wife is pregnant


On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 12:08 AM, Request Address Only - No 
Articles wrote:

> my plan, for years now, was to make something that I can brew
> now, bottle after the baby is born and celebrate his/her 18th birthday 
> with
> said bottles! Of course, this means high alcohol, and lots of
> unfermentables.

OLD BRITISH BEERS AND HOW TO MAKE THEM has a recipe for Younger's 
Majority Ale, brewed for just this purpose.

For 1 gal.:

7 lb. pale malt
5 lb. carapils
2 oz. Goldings hops

Use a stiff mash, sparge very slowly, and collect 1.25 gal. of the 
strongest wort possible. If gravity is below 1.120, preboil wort up to 
this value before adding hops and boiling 1.5 hrs.



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:06:04 -0400
From: MATTHEW HAHN <mchahn at earthlink.net>
Subject: Carbonating root beer w/dry ice

I have seen several references to this on the web, but no real 
directions, and my two attempts have not turned out well. Anyone ever 
done this successfully? How did you do it?



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:56:39 -0600
From: "Travis Miller" <travismiller at comcast.net>
Subject: RE: my wife is pregnant!!!!!

First of all congratulations on your impending doom....er....fatherhood.
But as thought why not make a batch of mead?  You could make it pretty
strong if you use a champagne yeast and it ought to be quite good 18 years
from now.  Heck you could even save a bottle for other events like the
child's marriage or the birth of your grandchild.  Mead has the great
advantage of getting better with that kind of age though I have heard of
some commercial barley wine producers suggesting that their product be aged
for lengthy periods.

Travis Miller
Fort Wayne, IN





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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:45:51 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Fermenting large volumes (relatively speaking)

Christian Layke is looking for a bigger and better way to ferment 20 gallons
of hooch in his fridge using plastic containers that are readily available.

I haven't tried this myself, but I know people do this and have had good
success. You could buy a 25 or 30 gallon plastic garbage can from
WallyWorld, line it with a plastic liner like the one in the link below, and
just cover the fermenter with the lid.  You won't be able to monitor the
ferment with an airlock, but that's no big deal.  I ferment in a SS 15
gallon pot all the time.  The lid does not seal, and I have not had a
problem yet.  Cleanup is very easy, if you don't save the yeast.  Just
siphon out the beer and throw the bag away, or pitch another batch on top of
the yeast cake.  The bags come in a roll, and are sanitized already because
of the process by which they are made.  I'm not sure about the food grade
issue, but that should be easy to research.  Low Density polyethylene bags
are probably food grade.  You get 1250 bags for about $35 plus shipping.
That would be just a little over 3 cents per 4mil bag.

http://www.ourshippingsupplies.com/productDetails.asp?id=LN6805

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:16:23 -0400
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: Wife in primary fermention!

Hi Jim,

<and part of my plan, for years now, was to make something that I can brew
now, bottle after the baby is born and celebrate his/her 18th birthday with
said bottles! Of course, this means high alcohol, >

Congrats on the fermenting one!  How about if the entire HBD mails you a
small gift of base malt or plain extract and you put it all together to make
a huge beer by choosing your own yeast and hops?

Todd
Buffalo, NY





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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:23:53 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rennerian calculator

Steve Jones <stjones at eastman.com> wrote from Johnson City, TN

>And it's probably nearing that time of year when Jeff explains this bit of
>silliness called Rennerian Coordinates, but remember that they are just a
>bit of fun. What is more important is to say where you live.

Well, you've saved me the trouble.  I did post it just last May:

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4235.html#4235-4

Now it's time for you and Brian to race to meet Lex's challenge of a 
reverse RC lookup calculator.

Jeff [0,0]AR
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:09:51 +0000
From: croll01 at comcast.net
Subject: First All Grain Replies

Hi All,

For those interested, I do have activity in my fermenter now (it was there 
yesterday when I got home without any meddling from me), and I have to agree 
with the group consensus that not enough yeast was the problem.  Starters are 
definitely the way to go.  I would like to thank everyone who sent me an email 
or posted to the Digest re my lag time.  I feel priveleged to be part of a 
group with members of such caliber.  I'll be sure to post how the beer turns 
out.

Prost!

Mel Croll
[477.4, 133.3] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:14:04 -0400
From: Lee Ellman <lee.ellman at cityofyonkers.com>
Subject: Checklists

I am looking for a few good checklists to help me 
overcome the dammit-factor in my brew day.  The
dammit factor is when you realize that you have
not sterilized something that you need RIGHT NOW
or some other such flub during the day!

I am sure that there a lots of good ones in the 
collective to be shared that would help a busy (lazy)
guy like me get better organized.

All help gratefully acknowledged in advance!




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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:06:54 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Amarit Lager

William Menzl writes from up the road in Midland, Michigan

>A friend of mine recently handed me a photocopy of a beer bottle label.  The
>label was for Amarit Lager Beer which was also called "The World's Prize
>Beer".  It is made by the Thai Amarit Brewery Limited Bangkok.  He drank it
>while in Thailand and Vietnam in the 70's and claims that it was the best he
>ever had.

By teaching junior high (1969 was the last year that teaching was 
classified as "critical to the national defence," and I was 
grandfathered in after that), I was able to avoid that "late 
unpleasantness," as they say.  But friends of mine who were in 'Nam 
tell me that ANY beer there was the best they ever had.  Standards 
were no doubt higher in Thailand.  I imagine that it was very fresh 
if drunk in Bangkok or Saigon, which would have helped.  Of course, 
there were always the rumors that Asian beer was preserved with 
formaldehyde!

>I have done some searches but all I can find out is that it is a
>Pale Lager at 5.5% ABV.  Anyone have any other specifics about this brew?

I was able to find this additional unsubstantiated information:

http://www.mbibeer.com/beer/html/amarit.html :

"Its popularity is due to the smooth, subtle rice presence. This 
pleasant, refreshingly hopped lager has a malt sweetness and a mildly 
bitter finish which complements any Thai dinner."

http://www.whatrain.com/beer/b118.htm :

"Amarit NB- Brewed by The Amarit Brewery Limited, Pathumthani, 
Thailand. Type of Beer- They say Ale, I say Pilsner. Pretty decent 
beer. Strong Czech bouqet. Very good balance, smooth flavor. I only 
wish it tasted as good as it smells. Still, it's good. We give Amarit 
NB a 3.5 on the 1-5 scale."

Not sure how/if Amarit NB is different from Amarit Lager.  But I 
would guess that since there was a strong German influence on the 
Thai (and other Asian) brewing industry, that a this beer would be of 
a definite European style, but apparently with rice (if we can 
believe the first quote), and moderately hopped with some sweetness.

Sounds like a slightly sweeter version of a rice CAP with all European hops.

How about 1.055 OG, 20-25% rice or rice flakes, depending on whether 
or not you want to do a cereal mash, 10% carapils for sweetness, 
balance pilsner malt, hopped to 25-30 IBU with noble hops, perhaps 
Saaz, consider FWH.  Mash single step 155-158F/69-70C for sweeter 
beer, or 140F/60C then add cereal mash to 158F/70C.

I'd suggest Ayinger/German Bock yeast since I love this yeast, but 
other lager yeasts would work well, especially those that emphasize 
the malt over the hops.

>We have scheduled a "Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day" for September 20th

Nice of you to celebrate my birthday this way. ;-)

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:25:06 -0400 (GMT)
From: rickdude02 at earthlink.net
Subject: Jim's 18 Year Beer

Jim wants to brew an 18 year beer.  Wow, that's a tough one!

I'd stay away from Belgians (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm
wrong) because there's no telling what will suddenly turn up and 
start fermenting the unfermentables.  Results, of course, being 
bottle bombs and lost beer.  I'd look to Old Ale recipes as well
as your standard Barley Wines.  BIG barley wines, at that.

And a bit of my $0.02 would be that you might want to consider an
alternative plan of action, something like brewing the same one 
every year and having a vertical event or something.  Why?
Because sometimes infections take some time to get going.  And
I mean years.

Here's an interesting case study out of my own cellar.  I used to 
brew barley wines every year and store them in the crawlspace
under the house (I don't do this anymore because Eastern NC is
basically one, big drained swamp-- I wouldn't put beer under my
house here).  I had a barley wine go wrong after 2 years of being
quite nice.  On the other hand, I put something down that I would
swear was infected 6 months later, but based on my inability to 
dump 2 cases of barley wine, checked again a year later or so and
found that it was good.  (Maybe I just got a bad bottle?)

My point is that 18 years is an awfully long time in the lifespan
of a beer.  Maybe backup plans should be made.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.

P.S.  Congratulations, Jim!!!  Children are one of the greatest
treasures of life... except when they're screaming at 3 am.




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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:50:08 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: peach-y flavor

Regarding the peach/apricot flavor in a beer - could I get some hints at to
what causes it?  I made a Bitter about 2 months ago - a very simple recipe
with 7 lbs of 2-row and 1/2 lbs of Amber malt.  Mashed at 150 for 90 minutes,
Mashed out at 165, then boiled for 90 minutes.  Hops were Fuggles and
EK Goldings.  Fermented with WLP005, British Ale yeast at about 70F.
It was in the Primary for 14 days, and in a
glass secondary fermenter for about 14 more (waiting for a free keg).
I made this same recipe about a year before, and it came out very clean
with no off flavors.  This time, however, when it was going into the keg,
it tasted like I had made a peach ale.  Not unpleasant, but not what I was
looking for either.  After chilling and carbonation, the intensity of the peach
has faded, but is still there as a distinct flavor.  Any ideas?
The only two differences in the batches was that with this second batch, I
did a partially covered boil - the humidity was very low the day I
brewed, and I wanted to hit my target volume.  The second difference was the
transfer to the secondary fermenter.  If I'm kegging, I usually just 
transfer out of
the primary into the key, then put the CO2 to it.  I have secondary-ed lots 
of beers
in the past, and have never had this flavor pop up.  Any advise or similar
experiences will be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
         -----wade


>John discusses his Vienna beer that is changing in taste aobut a week ago;
>"9-5-02, an uncomplex blonde beer slightly reminiscent of henikin."
>"9-10-02, strong hint of peaches.  tastes sweet at"
>" 9/30/02, very faint taste of peaches in a smooth mild beer"
>"10/13/02  now a light ale with a nice creamy white head.  has lost all of
>the fruty aftertaste"

         whutchis at bucknell.edu
         Brewing at 41deg 00' N by 76deg 50' W
         597.6 Klicks, 101.5 deg. Rennerian
         Milton, PA 17847

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'" ~ Dave Barry 



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:07:10 -0400
From: Phil Sides Jr <altoidman at altoidman.com>
Subject: Re: Moose Drool

"National Midnight Star Brewery" 
<NationalMidnightStarBrewery.at.hotmail.dot.com at hbd.org> writes:
>I can't remember where I read it but I think Big Sky Brewing can no longer
>call their Brown ale "Moose Drool"  because of some sort of copyright
>infringement brought on by Moosehead.  I think they decided to not make it
>at all rather than change the name.


That was reported in Zymurgy a while back.


>My father was in WY a couple of weeks
>ago and had a hard time finding some Moose Drool but eventually was
>successful.


They are still making the beer... I guess they are still trying to fight 
Moosehead.  See http://www.bigskybrew.com/index.php/fuseaction/home.news.


>A party store owner told him that Moose Drool was made by AB
>and they were no longer making it.

Apparently a bunch of bunk.


Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD

Need a good laugh today?
Join Altoidman's Humor List - http://www.altoidman.com



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:34:19 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: stupid kegger tricks #2

Paul Kensler or Gaithersburg, MD gave me a chuckle with the frozen keg 
trick.

A similar but less obvious experience, and what was worse for me was to 
think that I had an infection in my tropical stout, sitting in the keg at 
the back of the fridge.  Couldn't figure out why the one on tap could be 
"infected" because it had changed and developed a strongly alcoholic flavour 
and a somewhat over-the-top roastiness when the bottled ones (off the tap) 
stayed good for well over 2 months after.
When the keg blew, I opened it up to clean it and found, to my surprise, 
over 1/3 of the keg filled with slushy, almost clear ice.  Eis-stout, 
anyone??  To think I wondered what was wrong with me when I could only drink 
one english pint of what I thought was a 7% ABV tropical stout.

Maybe that Ranco controller upgrade _is_ worth it ;)


Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at (1918 miles, 298 degrees) Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:28:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Moose Drool

Now, when I first heard this story, I had thought it was bout Moose Drool
as well, but I remember finding it wasn't.  A quick check of the web turns
up two things:
1)http://www.bigskybrew.com/, which displays Moose Drool quite prominently
     They also provide a link to
http://canada.moosehead.com/index.asp?section=7 where you can tell
Moosehead to work on marketing their own product instead of suing because
illiterate morons might buy "Moose Drool" when they meant to buy
"Moosehead" (my interpretation/wording, not theirs)
2) http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-001756.php describing the
actual story, which involved a beer called Moose Juice Stout made by Grand
Teton Brewing Co. in Idaho

 -Travis
A2, MI

>I can't remember where I read it but I think Big Sky Brewing can no longer
>call their Brown ale "Moose Drool"  because of some sort of copyright
>infringement brought on by Moosehead.  I think they decided to not make it
>at all rather than change the name.  My father was in WY a couple of
>weeks ago and had a hard time finding some Moose Drool but eventually was
>successful.  A party store owner told him that Moose Drool was made by AB
>and they were no longer making it.
>
>Now I assume that AB was not contract manufacturing it for Big Sky but can
>this be confirmed by anyone?  Did Big Sky stop production because of the
>Moosehead copyright?  Any help at setting my mind/story straight would be
>appreciated.






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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:31:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: Aluminum Bottles

In researching my vaguely coherent response to another post, I found out
that Big Sky Brewing has developed an aluminum bottle
(www.bigskybrew.com/index.php/fuseaction/home.alumaBottle).  Anybody seen
these yet?  Comments?  More importantly, are the twist off or could
someone actually reseal them, for something different?

Just curious.

 -Travis
A2, MI




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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:59:21 +0000
From: beerbuddy at comcast.net
Subject: starters and moose drool

Quick question about starters, since (as will become painfully obvious) I have 
never used one before. I'll be starting my all grain life this summer (since 
moving into my house two and a half months ago, taking an international 
vacation, starting a new job, and taking two one week long out of town classes 
I haven't had much time to test out my new homegrown mash tun yet). So, 
anyway, back to starters. 

I'd like a step by step guide, if anyone is willing to take the time. I've got 
some 1 gallon jugs I could half fill with a low gravity starter fluid (from 
what I've read here I'm guessing around 1.032 to make a starter for a 5 gallon 
batch of 1.080 porter). Then, if I read into some answers correctly, at high 
krausen I should pour off almost all of the liquid and pitch the trub from the 
starter into the porter wort. Is this the right method for a starter? Any help 
is appreciated. 

as for Moose Drool, it is still readily available in supermarkets here in 
Washington State (as it was on my last trip to Montana in March). I believe 
there was another company that used the word "Moose" that was required to stop 
its use, I'm sure someone on this list will remember which that was. Moose 
Drool is still alive and kicking, and still produced by independent Big Sky. 
www.bigskybrew.com 

Timothy
North Bend, WA


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Denis Bekaert <Denis-B at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Mead Problems and Questions

About a week ago (July 20) I finally got around to
starting a batch of mead and I'm having some possible
problems that I thought I'd throw out to the experts.

I used 13 pounds of mixed honey (clover, mesquite
etc), 1 ounce of yeast nutrient, 1 Tablespoon acid
blend, 1 Teaspoon gypsum and added a starter made with
honey and boiled water to which I pitched 2 packets of
Red Star champagne yeast. Volume is 5 gallons. Initial
specific gravity was 1.076.

Fermentation was always slow and stopped about 4 days
ago. When I checked the specific gravity, it was
1.042, so I pitched another two packets of yeast,
along with another tablespoon of yeast nutrient. 
Still no activity that I can see.

I realize that mead takes much longer (maybe 6
months?) to clear and finish, but this seems too high
a final specific gravity to me.  

Suggestions?  Should I oxygenate it to rouse the yeast
or just rack to a secondary carboy and forget it for a
few months?  Is that enough yeast nutrient?

Denis in Beechgrove, Tennessee where moonshine is the
native product, but I'm only brewing, honestly, officer!



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:34:35 -0400
From: "redbeard47.ny" <redbeard47.ny at netzero.net>
Subject: Large batches

We purchased a large fermenter from Grape and Grain last year 20 gal , 
handles 15 gals very nicely, no air lock needed, very heavy plastic from 
rubber maid, we do triple batches for the two of us ,actually saves work 
doing three in the time of two, Bob.

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:00:49 -0400
From: "Christian Layke" <clayke at wri.org>
Subject: Fermenting large volumes (relatively speaking)
I'm keen on trying to increase the volume of beer I can produce at once
from 10 to 20 gallons or so. The biggest barrier I see is being able to
ferment all that wort at once and still being able to fit it in my
fridge to control the temperature. Four carboys isn't going to work.
Has anyone had good success with plastic containers that are readily
available? Any other solutions?
Thanks,
Christian Layke


Beer, it's not just for breakfast anymore!



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hetzel <hetzelnc at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Nucleation site pilsner glass

Just catching up.. on the subject of nucleation sites, there was an
article in Scientific American (Jan 2003) that presented a study in
carbonation in champagne and beer (The Science of Bubbly). This is an
executive summary on the topic at hand, and its nearly verbatim from
the article:

Bubble formation within weakly supersaturated liquids (beer, champagne,
soda) require pre-existing gas cavities with curvature radii large
enough to overcome the nucleation energy barrier. They studied the
bases of hundreds of bubble trains and found that contrary to popular
belief, the nucleation sites are not located in irregularities on the
glass surface but rather on impurities attached to the glass wall. Most
were hollow cylindrical cellulose fibers that fell out of air or
remained from the process of wiping the glass dry. The reasons are that
impurities on the glass surface feature length scales that are far
below the critical radii required, while the cellulose fibers do not
get completely wet by the beverage due to their geometries and are able
to trap air when the glass is filled. CO2 molecules then migrate into
the pocket and form a bubble until the buoyancy overcomes the capillary
force holding it down.

This article was an excellent read, and covers in good detail the whole
life of the bubble (creation, growth, ascent, and collapse). For
example, in beer the high level of surfactants (proteins and whatnot)
cause the bubble to become rigid, increasing its resistance on ascent
thus slowing it to a minimum velocity, and delaying its collapse. This
in contrast to champagne which has two orders of magnitude less of
surfactant, leading the bubble to grow faster, expand on ascent, travel
and collapse faster.

Very interesting stuff, though I don't recommend using this as an
icebreaker at a bar. Just thought I'd throw this out there for the
collective to ponder over their next carbonated beverage.

Cheers,

Mike Hetzel
Waltham, MA



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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:06:04 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Nucleation site pilsner glass

"tOM Trottier" <Tom at Abacurial.com> responds to
Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>:

>Anybody know of any nucleated narrow pilsner glasses?
>Or narrow long diamond-tipped chisels?
>> > Apparently you can just make your own nucleation sites in any glass,
>> > e.g. by scratching with a glass cutter.
>> >
>> > Then the bubbles come from the bottom for maximum foam.
>tOM

Why not apply a dab of glass-etching paste to the bottom of the glass?

Never used the stuff myself, but a Google for "glass-etch-paste" turned up
<http://www.egressetch.com> among others.
stencil sends


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