HOMEBREW Digest #4310 Wed 30 July 2003

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  Re: Nucleation site pilsner glass ("tOM Trottier")
  my wife is pregnant!!!!! ("jim")
  free mash tun act (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?=)
  unfermenting wort ("Dave Burley")
  1st steps in batch sparging (Michael Fross)
  Re: First All-Grain Batch ("Jerry Zeidler")
  Stupid Kegger Trick (Paul Kensler)
  Re: First All Grain Batch (Christopher Swingley)
  Re: Home Grain Roasting with Popper (Jeff Renner)
  Re: First All Grain Batch (Jeff Renner)
  Storing Star San ("Harlan Nilsen")
  RE: First All Grain Batch (Brenden Portolese)
  Re: Home Grain Roasting with Popper (FLJohnson)
  Fermenting large volumes (relatively speaking) ("Christian Layke")
  Rennerian, Popcorn, Herbs (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Rennerian calculator (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
  Heavy drinking at Varsity ("Lee and Ant Hayes")
  Home Grain Roasting with Popper (Road Frog)
  Amarit Lager ("National Midnight Star Brewery")
  Moose Drool ("National Midnight Star Brewery")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 02:18:39 -0400 From: "tOM Trottier" <Tom at Abacurial.com> Subject: Re: Nucleation site pilsner glass Of course, what I want is the inverted cone type pilsner glasses with the flared base - the ones so deep and narrow that wielding a glass cutter at the very bottom would be very difficult. Anybody know of any nucleated narrow pilsner glasses? Or narrow long diamond-tipped chisels? tOM On Monday, July 28, 2003 at 17:51 Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> wrote: > Of course! Why didn't I think of that. :-) > > Thanks. Tom. > > Fred > > On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 09:58 AM, tOM Trottier wrote: > > > Apparently you can just make your own nucleation sites in any glass, > > e.g. by scratching with a glass cutter. > > > > Then the bubbles come from the bottom for maximum foam. > > > > tOM > > > > On Monday, July 28, 2003 at 7:20 > > Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> wrote: > > > >> Dear Tom: > >> > >> I didn't know such glasses were made, but I, too, would be interested > >> in purchasing some. I would be grateful if you would post or email > >> suppliers if you get any responses. - ---- Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur ---- ,__ at tOM Trottier +1 613 860-6633 fax:+1-270-596-1042 _-\_<, 758 Albert St.,Ottawa ON Canada K1R 7V8 (*)/'(*) ICQ:57647974 N45.412 W75.714 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. -Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 03:18:44 -0400 From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net> Subject: my wife is pregnant!!!!! and part of my plan, for years now, was to make something that I can brew now, bottle after the baby is born and celebrate his/her 18th birthday with said bottles! Of course, this means high alcohol, and lots of unfermentables. I'm partial to lots of hops and belgian yeasts, but, am open to anything. Got any ideas? I can probably mash 35# comfortably with my system... probably 8 gal. batch or so. any help would be appreciated, Jim Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:47:11 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?= <a_w_lawton at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: free mash tun act -S asked >At some point (when?) the English taxed potential >alcohol of the wort by a rather obtuse formula. In 1880 Gladstone introduced the Free Mash Tun Act which taxed beer proportionally to OG. Beers above 1.060 (I think) had a higher proportional tax rate. This replaced the Malt tax and taxes on ingredients. In general this led to Lower OG beers with higher attenuation. At present in the UK beer duty is based on % abv. This policy seems to be aimed at revenue raising rather than control of binge drinking. Alex Winchester, UK Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:53:35 -0400 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: unfermenting wort Brewsters: Mel Croll describes his first all grain batch. and asks why he doesn't see any activity in the air lock. Mel, perhaps you omitted it in your text but you didn't mention that you put any yeast in the wort and you ask if you should add dry yeast. What kind of yeast did you use originally? Was it active? Sounds to me like you did a good job with your first all grain mash and you have a fermentable wort, just maybe not active yeast or, more likely, you are too impatient. Use more yeast the next time. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:43:55 -0500 From: Michael Fross <michael at fross.org> Subject: 1st steps in batch sparging Hello Mel, et al. I read your message and thought I would post for other folks starting out with all grain brewing. I've only been doing it for about a year and have had very good results. However, I've been using the batch sparge technique. I had never heard of batch sparging until I read a note from John Palmer (http://howtobrew.com/) and became interested. After my first successful batch I could not believe how easy it was. I wrote up a step by step worksheet to help me through it. I thought I would share this with everyone. You can find that worksheet at: http://fross.org/brewing/BatchSpargeWorksheet.txt Note: You will probably need to copy it to an editor that supports work wrapping. I develop the recipe in promash using a 75% efficiency rating (the default I believe). I then take these grain numbers and put them in a spreadsheet to give me the batch sparge amounts. I then take the spreadsheet results and work put the key numbers in the worksheet. The worksheet is what I bring with me on brewing day. The spreadsheet is here: http://fross.org/brewing/BatchSparge.xls Note: Just put in your values in the light green areas. The spreadsheet is a modification of Bob Regent's work which is based on the work of Ken Schwartz. Here are links to Bob and Ken's pages on Batch Sparging. http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html http://www.bayareamashers.org/BatchSparging.htm If I can answer any questions publicly or privately just let me know. All grain brewing does produce a much better beer, although I was a happy extract brewer for some time. Best regards, Michael - --- Original Message --- >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:04:36 +0000 >From: croll01 at comcast.net >Subject: First All Grain Batch > >Hi, > >I have been lurking here for some time but this is my first post, so please >bear with me. I made my first attempt at an all grain batch this past weekend, >and I think I may have rather botched the job. As of this morning there is >absolutely no activity in the fermenter. At the risk of making this an overly >long post I will describe my recipe and process, and perhaps someone here may >offer some suggestions regarding what I might do to salvage this batch, or next >time to achieve better results. <snip> Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:42:33 -0400 From: "Jerry Zeidler" <gjzeidler at suscom.net> Subject: Re: First All-Grain Batch Mel Croll wonders why his wort hasn't begun to visibly ferment. Mel, you need to think about two areas of possible problems: yeast and starch/sugar conversion during the mash. Yeast -- I didn't see mention in your post of what kind of yeast you pitched into your wort. Liquid or dry? How much? Did you use a starter? If you underpitched, it may take quite some time for the yeast to produce any discernable activity. Also, what temperature was the wort when you pitched the yeast? I know you used a wort chiller, but some are more efficient than others, and if the temperature wasn't optimal, that may cause problems. Mash Conversion -- Your procedure sounds like it should have produced at least some fermentables, but we can't know for sure that you had complete converstion of the starches. I'd highly recommend that you do an iodine test during your next batch to make sure that your wort has converted from starches to sugars. For 99 cents, you can buy a bottle of iodine that will last you for years, so cost shouldn't be an issue. It can't hurt to draw a couple drops off of the wort now to test with iodine. At least you'd know if you're dealing with fermentable wort or just a carboy full of starchy liquid. Faced with your situation, I'd test the wort and if it is converted to sugars, I'd get myself some more yeast in a hurry -- even if it's just a couple packets of dry ale yeast, you'll end up with drinkable beer as opposed to it being a total loss. Jerry Zeidler Williamsport, PA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:45:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com> Subject: Stupid Kegger Trick I kegged a batch of bitter last week, but didn't put it on tap right away because I was cleaning out the chest freezer that I use for dispensing my kegs. I put the keg in on Friday night, turned the freezer back on and figured I'd get back to it in a day or so for force-carbonation. I ended up having a really busy weekend, so I didn't get around to the keg until Sunday night. I hooked up the CO2 to the plug and turned up the psi, but nothing happened. Oh, there was a slight sound of increased pressure on the keg, but not the bubbling I was expecting. I picked up the keg to shake it, and instead of the expected sloshing, I heard... nothing. It was then that I noticed that I had neglected to put the temperature controller probe back inside the freezer (I had taken it out when I mopped out the insides). Yep, the probe was sitting out in 70F air, and the controller was set to 40F, so the freezer had been, well, freezing for two days and the keg was frozen SOLID. I took it out to thaw and kicked myself (and promptly put the probe back inside the freezer). As of Tuesday morning, when I shake the keg it sounds like a slurpee in there - still not fully thawed! I'm hoping the expanding freezing beer didn't ruin my keg, my dip tubes or my carbonation stone - and I hope the freezing didn't hurt the beer. Most of all, I hope I never do that again. Paul Kensler Gaithersburg, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:45:26 -0800 From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu> Subject: Re: First All Grain Batch Mel, * croll01 at comcast.net <croll01 at comcast.net> [2003-Jul-28 11:04 AKDT]: > The wort was properly cooled when it exited the chiller, so I pitched > the liquid yeast, covered, and put the fermenter in the old fridge I > use for temperature control. The controller is set to 60 degrees and > the thermometer I have inside the fridge reads between 56 and 60, > appropriate for the swing. The stick-on thermometer on the fermenter > reads about the same. Don't give up on it yet. My garage temperatures are normally in this range and if I don't make a yeast starter in advance, a smack pack will sometimes take a day or two to get going. If it doesn't, try warming the fermenter slightly and perhaps agitating it somewhat. In the future I'd recommend making a starter culture so you've got more yeast going into the wort, and pitch the yeast at a slighly warmer temperature (like 70 - 75 F). Once the yeast get going you can reduce the temperature down to 55 - 60 F. I had a similar experience with my first cream ale -- the primary fermentation went great (at 60 F), and six days after pitching I transferred to the secondary (at 55 F). No fermentation was evident for five days. Then suddenly the yeast started working again, and they're bubbling away now two weeks after the transfer. I think their sudden activity was coincident with a rise in temperature in the garage. They're strange creatures, but don't give up on 'em. Chris - -- Christopher S. Swingley email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu IARC -- Frontier Program Please use encryption. GPG key at: University of Alaska Fairbanks www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:08:46 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Home Grain Roasting with Popper Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu> takes time out from his anthropology research to ask: >Did anyone try roasting grain with a popcorn popper? It works with >green coffee beans (Maillard reaction and all) so it might work with >grain, if the temperatures are appropriate. I started doing this many, many years ago, using a heavy steel stovetop popcorn popper. This is different from the newer, thinner stainless steel stovetop poppers. This heavy construction is probably better for roasting grain and coffee. It is about 10-11 inches in diameter and ~5 inches high, painted black with a red knob on the handle. The bottom is concave as you look into it, or convex as you look at it from the bottom, and the stirrer is a curved blade that fits the bottom. I bought it originally to roast coffee, but it worked great for roasting malt. At first the black paint burned off, but that stopped being a problem after a while. I've stopped doing this the last few years (both coffee and grain) and gave it to a friend who roasts his own coffee. One problem is that it smokes, and you will use many beer bullets if you don't have a good stove vent fan. Strangely, it doesn't smell very nice. I always opened the roaster outside when it was done and dumped the grains onto a baking sheet to cool them. This is when the smoke and smell are the worst. I roasted on a medium heat, as I recall, and stirred the whole time. If you overdo it, the grains start to stick together. You need to stop before that. With a little practice you can get pretty good control and roast anything between amber and black malt. But I've had just as good luck, and a bit more control, with using the oven. It's slower, but that's what gives more control. I had the best luck making pale chocolate for porter. I used more of it than I would a commercial chocolate, and liked the results better. Since then I've used commercial brown malt, but I've been thinking of roasting my own again. >(so, where's the Rennerian calculator now?) Still at http://hbd.org/rennerian_table.shtml Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:22:53 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: First All Grain Batch Mel Croll <croll01 at comcast.net> writes from Richmond, VA: >I made my first attempt at an all grain batch this past weekend, and >I think I may have rather botched the job. As of this morning there >is absolutely no activity in the fermenter. ... I pitched the liquid >yeast, covered, and put the fermenter in the old fridge I use for >temperature control. The controller is set to 60 degrees and the >thermometer I have inside the fridge reads between 56 and 60, >appropriate for the swing. The stick-on thermometer on the >fermenter reads about the same. Almost certainly you got sufficient conversion to get a fermentable wort, even if things didn't go as efficiently as they could have. There is a bit of acidity in Vienna malt, so if you water is not too alkaline, the pH may well have been OK. And if not, it wouldn't have resulted in no conversion. Did you take a specific gravity reading of your wort? You should always do this to get an idea of your efficiency and also of how strong your beer will be. I think your problem is either that you don't have fermentation, or you have missed it. I suspect the former, and I suspect that it is due to the relatively low temperature you are fermenting at. You say that you pitched a tube of yeast, so I gather that you mean you used a WhiteLabs yeast. The recommended fermentation temperature of the ones they recommend for alt (and nearly all ale yeasts, for that matter) is upper 60's F to low 70's. If you want to ferment that cool, you should make a big starter and pitch it when it's active. As a matter of fact, starters never hurt. I suspect that you should warm the temperature of your wort up to 68F/20C and see if you get activity. I think you will. If your sanitation and luck were good, nothing bad will have grown in the wort during the interim. You should also monitor the specific gravity of the wort when it seems to stop fermenting. Good luck. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:46:11 -0500 From: "Harlan Nilsen" <ramnrah at nebi.com> Subject: Storing Star San Timothy Burkhart writes and wants to know about storing Star San in his CF Chiller. I do this all the time and have had no problems whatsoever. My feeling is that it keeps out the nasty bugs and makes it easy to use on brew day. I am sure to mix the SS properly ( 1 oz./5 gal.) so it is really quite dilute. As an aside to this, I keep some properly mixed SS in a spray bottle and use this for sanitizing many things. Works great---I've been brewing for many years and have not ever had an infected brew (knock on wood). Good Luck and have fun brewing. Harlan Nilsen 32nd St. Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:08:33 -0700 From: Brenden Portolese <brenden at votehere.net> Subject: RE: First All Grain Batch Mel, Sounds like you did pretty good off the bat. Let me get to the bottom line before I start to spew philosophical... Take your fermenter out of the fridge and check on it every 4-6 hours or so. Once you get a good fermentation going, then stick it back in the fridge. You may have just cooled the wort too quickly to get the yeasties going. Taking it out of the fridge should warm it up enough to get it going. If you dont see any activity in 12 hours or so, you may need to repitch the yeast. One thing you probably noticed while lurking. There are two types of homebrewers: 1. Artists 2. Scientists You have begun the road of the Artist homebrewer. Phrases like "Looks good", and "Thats probably enough" will be used in this approach. You may wander to the Scientist approach where you will actually make a yeast decision based on attenuation rates. Nothing wrong with this either, Ive been there and enjoyed my time thoroughly. Both approaches have good and bad The Artist brewer will revel in the process and the slight changes and be curious to see what the beer will turn out to be. This brewer usually changes the recipe on brew day, based on personal intuition and general mood. The scientist is more of a planner. They check diligently the temperature of everything, and monitor starch conversion religiously. This person will almost always use a starter, and offer advice that will usually solve your problem, but isnt much fun.... As you may have surmised, I am an artist homebrewer. We are a quiet bunch because, yes, its true our beers arent consistent. I read in homebrewing books and magazines that a consistent beer is the ultimate achievement in homebrewing. I say the ultimate achievement is to create beer from ingredients. Beer that is tasty and in most cases a surprise. When I want consistent beer, Ill buy it. Brenden Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:32:33 -0400 From: FLJohnson at portbridge.com Subject: Re: Home Grain Roasting with Popper Alexandre asks about home roasting malt in a hot-air popcorn popper. I once was in a pinch for some additional chocolate malt for a porter. I can't remember off-hand whether I started with pale male or some 60L crystal and it will probably make a difference in the outcome. I put some into the hot-air popper I've used for roasting coffee. The malt definitely became more roasted but began to get sticky, clump up, and then started to scorch as I approached the darkness of a chocolate malt. I ended up using it but I tediously picked through what appeared to be burned pieces. (Sounds like I started with the crystal malt, doesn't it.) Of course, the hot-air popper has a pretty limited capacity, so you'll have to do a number of batches. The beer came out OK and with a definite roasted taste, but not the same as a good quality chocolate malt. Fred L. Johnson Apex, North Carolina USA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:00:49 -0400 From: "Christian Layke" <clayke at wri.org> Subject: Fermenting large volumes (relatively speaking) I'm keen on trying to increase the volume of beer I can produce at once from 10 to 20 gallons or so. The biggest barrier I see is being able to ferment all that wort at once and still being able to fit it in my fridge to control the temperature. Four carboys isn't going to work. Has anyone had good success with plastic containers that are readily available? Any other solutions? Thanks, Christian Layke Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:09:38 -0400 From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu> Subject: Rennerian, Popcorn, Herbs Thanks to Jeff Renner for the link to the Rennerian calculation site. BTW, Yahoo! Maps and Mapquest don't seem to give Lat/Long data for Canadian addresses but MSN's Mappoint seems to work. Is there an equivalent of the calculator for reverse lookups (coordinates from Rennerian data)? My query about popcorn poppers was more about hot air models which are likely too hot/quick for our purposes. Might as well try it out and report back... As for herbs, the vodka potion trick seems to work quite well. Did anyone try zapping herbs and seeds in the microwave? They kind of lack moisture but maybe it could sanitize them without taking too much of the aroma out? Lex, in Montreal [555.1km, 62.8] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:54:45 -0400 From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com> Subject: Rennerian calculator Alex adds to his sig line "(so, where's the Rennerian calculator now?)". I'm not sure where the one is on the hbd site. I did a site site search, and the first link was to my copy, with other links to HBD posts with rennerian coordinates in their sigs. My copy is at http://hbd.org/franklin. On the right of the home page is a link to the calculator Some of you may remember that I won by a nose over Brian Levetzow in the race to develop an online RC calculator a few years back. I posted mine just a few hours before Brian posted his. However, mine had a few errors in it, and rather than fix it I yielded to Brian, so his copy was posted on the HBD. I saved a copy of it and added it to my web site to be sure to preserve it. My site is now over 5 years old, and I expect it to continue to exist as long as the HBD exists. And it's probably nearing that time of year when Jeff explains this bit of silliness called Rennerian Coordinates, but remember that they are just a bit of fun. What is more important is to say where you live. Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin [421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian (Janitor's Note: The Rennerian Calculator is, in fact, alive and well on the HBD server - it is squirrelled away in that bastion of infinitely inquired-after information know as the HBD's Fabulously Famous Forgotten FAQ. Click HBD FAQ on the menu on the HBD homepage, use your browser's search button to find "rennerian", and then follow the links...) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:26:10 +0200 From: "Lee and Ant Hayes" <anleo at worldonline.co.za> Subject: Heavy drinking at Varsity I have followed the thread of binge drinking at college with interest (cultural aside: here at the tip of Africa, college is where people unable to get into university go). I saw university as a time to test boundaries in a tolerant environment. I could argue in favour of anarchy, hang-glide on weekends, walk down the main road at 2 am nursing a gallon of Tassies (red wine) and generally behave in an anti-social manner - without anyone getting overly concerned. I graduated, cut my hair, cut back on my drinking, and got a job. People now trust me to look after their pensions (we do a better job over here than is done in a 401k environment - but that's another story). I don't regret drinking too much at varsity. I cannot blame my folks who taught me to respect alcohol from an early age. Even as I was hugging the porcelain towards the end of another rugby club party, I knew that what I was doing was not sustainable or sensible. But it was fun! Playing Coinage (Quarters), taking part in boat races, all of that stupid stuff was great fun at the time. It was a time of great freedom, which is becoming rarer as I get older. If I drink too much now, it is seen as a lapse of judgement - which it probably is. These days I worry more about my staff who didn't revel to excess when they were eighteen since they don't know where the boundaries are, and do damage when they lose control, or wake up one day realising that their life has passed them by. I think that the solution to binge drinking at university is to localise it on campus. Let students drink to excess in a place where they don't have to drive and where they will not bother the rest of society. And if their brew of choice is a home brew, so much the better. Ant Hayes Gauteng Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com> Subject: Home Grain Roasting with Popper Yes, I have used a hot air popper to roast grains. It has been awhile but it seems like 20 minutes for around 4 oz. It will not give you black or chocolate, but still very nice touch. I used it on 2 row and unmalted barley. I did have to tilt the popper slightly backwards to keep the grain from flying out. Glyn Road Frog Brewery Southern Middle TN Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:12:10 -0400 From: "National Midnight Star Brewery" <NationalMidnightStarBrewery.at.hotmail.dot.com at hbd.org> Subject: Amarit Lager A friend of mine recently handed me a photocopy of a beer bottle label. The label was for Amarit Lager Beer which was also called "The World's Prize Beer". It is made by the Thai Amarit Brewery Limited Bangkok. He drank it while in Thailand and Vietnam in the 70's and claims that it was the best he ever had. I have done some searches but all I can find out is that it is a Pale Lager at 5.5% ABV. Anyone have any other specifics about this brew? We have scheduled a "Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day" for September 20th (November is not the best in Michigan for enticing newbies to learn to brew outside) and my friend will be there and we would like to recreate this beer. Thanks in advance for any help! William Menzl Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian National Midnight Star Brewery NationalMidnightStarBrewery at hotmail dot com (e-mail address altered above to avoid spam crawlers) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:23:31 -0400 From: "National Midnight Star Brewery" <NationalMidnightStarBrewery.at.hotmail.dot.com at hbd.org> Subject: Moose Drool Since the queue is low, I will send this one out as it has had me thinking... I can't remember where I read it but I think Big Sky Brewing can no longer call their Brown ale "Moose Drool" because of some sort of copyright infringement brought on by Moosehead. I think they decided to not make it at all rather than change the name. My father was in WY a couple of weeks ago and had a hard time finding some Moose Drool but eventually was successful. A party store owner told him that Moose Drool was made by AB and they were no longer making it. Now I assume that AB was not contract manufacturing it for Big Sky but can this be confirmed by anyone? Did Big Sky stop production because of the Moosehead copyright? Any help at setting my mind/story straight would be appreciated. Thanks! William Menzl Midland, Michigan [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian National Midnight Star Brewery NationalMidnightStarBrewery at hotmail dot com (e-mail address altered above to avoid spam crawlers) Return to table of contents
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