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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: All RIMS'ers and those who use pumps (David Towson)
  Stale Brew in Mini-Kegs (Bob Hall)
  Re: Pink residue ("Steven S.")
  RE:  Pink residue ("Houseman, David L")
  re madison brew pubs ("Hofmann, Chris")
  Re: All RIMS'ers and those who use pumps (Jeff Renner)
  Mixed gas == flat beer! (Jim Busch)
  full flavored mild ("Hofmann, Chris")
  raise-lower pH/Alt grainbill/21-yr brew/2-gauge/head killers (BrewInfo)
  Please help with first all-grain brew (Stephen T. Kajdasz)
  Lallemandian Origins ("Rob Moline")


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 07:56:39 -0400
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: All RIMS'ers and those who use pumps

In HBD 4316, Parker Dutro asks about pump noises.

In my experience, pump rattle is a sign of cavitation, which is a turbulent 
and inefficient flow through the pump.  If the liquid being pumped is at a 
temperature near the normal atmospheric pressure boiling point (say 190 - 
200 degrees F), the pump suction can lower the pressure on the hot liquid 
enough to permit boiling inside the pump.  This usually takes a few minutes 
to build up, and is less likely with high-gravity worts, as their boiling 
point is higher.  It can be stopped temporarily by stopping the pump and 
letting the pump-head refill with liquid (if it will - depends on 
layout).    In my experience, doing this almost always results in a burst 
of bubbles being released on either the suction side or the discharge side, 
again depending on the layout.  I think of it as "burping the pump".  You 
can also throttle the output of the pump by partially closing the discharge 
valve (assuming we're talking about a centrifugal pump), and that will 
raise the pressure on the suction side to stop the liquid from boiling 
inside the pump.  But there is a tradeoff here, as throttling the pump 
reduces the flow.

Letting the rattle continue without attention is rather hard on the pump, 
particularly if it has cheap plastic parts, as mine do.  And the flow is 
substantially reduced during cavitation.

Dave Towson
Bel Air, MD



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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 07:44:30 -0400
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at toast.net>
Subject: Stale Brew in Mini-Kegs

I've worked away from home much of the summer, and began using mini-kegs as 
a more convenient way of transporting homebrew. I've kept kegs on tap both 
at home and at my apartment. I've noticed that the brew tastes very good 
when the initially tapped, but over time the beer tastes stale and perhaps 
oxidized even when under pressure. This is especially noticable with the 
kegs at home, which I only taste on a weekly basis. Has anyone experienced 
this .... is the life of mini-kegged beer actually that short even with CO2 
applied?

Also, my wife says that she can pick up a metallic taste and wants me to 
return to bottles. I haven't picked that up, having destroyed too many 
taste buds with jalapenos over the years. Has anyone with a more 
discriminating palate noticed any off flavors associated with metal mini-kegs?

Bob Hall,
Napoleon, OH 



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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Steven S." <steven at 403forbidden.net>
Subject: Re: Pink residue


Here in Atlanta we get a pink residue also, around shower heads and any
place water will run down and sit. Our water supply comes from a large
lake just to the northeast of town. I spent sometime trying to figure out
what this is when I finally talked to the local water management folk.
In my case it is basically a mostly harmless bacterium that feeds on the
flora in the lake itself. In the summer water levels drop and they get
increased algae blooms and the bacteria gets well fed. This gets into the
water and I assume it is not killed by cholorine levels in the water.

If your water supply is lake fed then you will probably notice the pink
stuff dissipears towards winter.

An odd side note, since I moved I no longer get the pink bacteria but i'm
still on the same basic water supply.


Steven St.Laurent       :: www.403forbidden.net
[580.2,181.4] Rennerian :: steven at 403forbidden.net




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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:26:54 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  Pink residue

Dave Burley suggests that the pink residue from evaporated water is a yeast
similar to that which occurs in showers.  Yes, my shower occasionally gets a
pinkish wild yeast/mold (never had it analyzed) that tends to grow on soap
residue.  But what RRodda may be seeing is the results of dissolved iron in
the water which is no longer dissolved.  I also had a severe iron problem
which will turn a lot of things, include laundry, pinkish/reddish.  A water
softener fixed this problem for the most part.  But some evaporated water
may still leave a trace of iron.  And I've found an iron residue in carboy's
of iodophor solution; apparently the iodophor solution causes any residual
iron to precipitate out.  So besides wild yeast, unlikely to be in the
water, but  may grow in damp areas, such as evaporation pools, check the
iron content of your water.  Too much will give you a metallic taste to beer
and in large quantities be toxic to yeast.

Dave Houseman



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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:03:13 -0500 
From: "Hofmann, Chris" <Chris.Hofmann at camtronics.com>
Subject: re madison brew pubs

Rob Beck asks about Madison brew pubs.....

I think the Great Dane has to be one of the best brewpubs in the country. 

Great atmosphere in Historic Fess hotel, great location near our beautiful
State Capitol building.
Broad selection of beers to meet any beer snobs discerning palate. Several
have won awards.  There's a bar, and a Rathskeller in the basement.  The
dining area is pleasant and the food is good and consistent, portions ample.

Also you can walk two blocks down W. Wilson and go to the Essen Haus, a
great German restaurant and bar.  Connected to the Essen Haus is the Come
Back Inn.  Excellent selection of beers on tap, including one of my
favorites - Alpha King.

No affiliation, etc.

Have fun!!

 -Chris Hofmann
Mukwonago, WI


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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:55:30 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: All RIMS'ers and those who use pumps

"Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com> is worried about the 
noise his pump makes.

Is this a new pump?  I find that when mine gets dirty, it makes a 
squealing and chattering noise intermittently, and doesn't pump well. 
The impeller and the inside of the pump chamber get buildups of hard 
brown gunk (protein?).  I take it apart and soak the parts, then 
scrape off the deposits after they are softened.

If it's a new pump, then I don't know.  Mine runs quietly unless I 
get air bubbles in it.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, Aug 6 2003 11:01:34 GMT-0400
From: Jim Busch <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Mixed gas == flat beer!

Someone asked about using mixed gas, 60/40 and 
wondered why his already low carbonated beer ended
up flat.  Thats easy, its all due to partial pressures
of gases in solution and their propensity to equalize.
Bottom line is with mixed gas, you need to have fully
carbonated beer and even then the 60-70% nitrogen fraction
will reduce the CO2 saturation over time as the gas
partial pressures will equalize.  The same phenomenon
will occur with 100% CO2 dispense too, but in this case
over time you can get overcarbonated beer.  This is
the reason that multitaps (with slow turnover) tend to 
use mixed gas, it reduces losses due to fobbing with
overcarbonated beer but the end result is most beers
are undercarbonated overtime when pushed by mixed gas.
What is happening inside the keg is the N2 is pushing
the beer out of the keg but the CO2 fraction is decreasing.
Overtime you end with lots of N2 but almost no CO2.

If you must use mixed gas (and in general I despise the
practice with all but slow pour Guinness), be sure to have
your kegs fully carbonated to your desired levels and 
then try to empty the kegs ASAP.

Cheers!

Jim Busch



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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:41:48 -0500 
From: "Hofmann, Chris" <Chris.Hofmann at camtronics.com>
Subject: full flavored mild

Colleagues,

Never have brewed a mild (intentionally). But as someone once posted here,
brewing a full flavored mild is one of the great challenges in brewing.

My house brew is a malty (1.050-1.055, with lots of Munich, Crystal), hoppy
( ~ 60 IBU) APAish concoction.

I would like to brew a smaller (less ABV) version.

If I want to scale it down to say 1.038, should I just cut everything
proportionally?

I know it may not technically be a mild, but is this the right approach?

With appreciation,

Chris Hofmann
Mukwonago, WI




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Date: Wed,  6 Aug 2003 14:12:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo)
Subject: raise-lower pH/Alt grainbill/21-yr brew/2-gauge/head killers

Jeff's right... I did mean to add calcium carbonate to RAISE the
pH.  I frequently make that mistake... more frequently at 1 or 2am...

***
Jim writes:
>Now, not that I want to be argumentative with Al,
>but I used to agree with him about all munich malts
>for Altbier, then I brewed up a series of 12 pilots
>with vastly different malt profiles : 100% Munich,
>touch of Carfa, down to 80% pils, some Munich, some
>caramel, some carafa.  Somewhat to my surprise, the
>beers that employed over 50% pils malt as a base
>seemed closest to me in flavor profile with the
>holy grail, Zum Uerige.  In fact read the label,
>roast malz, pale malz, caramel malz, hopfen.

I wish that I had some fresh Zum Uerige to perform that experiment,
but I don't, nor do I have the time to do all those test batches
in the near future.  I'll have to take Jim's word for it, since
I trust his palate and his brewing skills.  Regarding the recipe
on the bottle.  I did bring back 8 or 12 bottles (it was one of those
white carry-home cases from the brewery) of Zum Uerige when I was
there in 1995 or 1996 and I'm pretty sure that there was no 
ingredient list on the bottles at the time.  They were swing-top
bottles and had a tiny little paper label that went over the bale
release.  I met with one of the brewmasters while I was there and
although he spoke no English and I have but a cursory knowledge of
German, I did understand that he *claimed* the malt bill was
"dunkel malz" with a little (fingers about 2cm apart) "roast malz."
I doubt that they would change the recipe, but maybe they did, or
maybe I was a victim of the Belgian Waffle... we weren't that
far from the Belgian border, don'cha know ;^).  For those of
you that aren't familiar, someone in homebrewing coined the phrase
"Belgian Waffle" for the ever-changing story that one gets when
one asks a Belgian brewmaster about their recipe.  I've heard
three *different* stories about the "secret ingredient" and two
different stories about lactic acid vs. lactobacillus in Celis
White... FROM PIERRE!

***
Ironically, Jim also writes:
>Regarding brewing for storage for about 18-21 yrs.
>Ive been cellar aging strong Victory beers since
>opened in 96 and have found that the best aging beer
>we make is Storm King Imperial Stout.  It holds up
>better than our barleywine, and better than the Belgians.

I have yet to taste Storm King, but as luck would have it,
YESTERDAY, I finally ran across it at a local liquor store
and bought some.  I intend on tasting it tonight and since
I'll be back by there next week I'll bet I pick up the rest!

***
Calvin writes, quoting me:
>> ...don't get a 2-gauge regulator.  I, personally,
>> think they are a waste of money.  The second gauge goes 
>> on the high-pressure side of the regulator and tells you 
>> the pressure in the tank.  For gasses like nitrogen or oxygen, 
>> where the tank is all gas, it might be useful, but for CO2, 
>> which is a liquid in our tanks, it really only begins to
>> drop when all the liquid CO2 has become gas and that's 
>> just a few pints from empty.
>
>I hate to disagree with one of the Hall of Foam candidates (Al K),
>but 2-gauge regulators ARE useful, or perhaps let's say that these
>are useful if you have a large CO2 tank.  Case in point:

I too have a 20-lb tank and perhaps I was pretty sure that I got
less than one keg worth of beer out of the tank after I noticed
that the high-pressure gauge was dropping.  At the time, I was
running four kegs off one regulator and maybe there was a small
leak in the lines, so that may have made it even worse for me.
On my 5-lb tank, I'm certain you would agree with me, right? ;^)

I still would contend that if someone was trying to get into kegging
for the least amount of cost, I would forgo the second gauge.

>The tank-pressure gauge on my 20-lb tank usually runs around
>50-something atm.  It stays in that range (depending on ambient
>temp) so long as there is liquid inside.  A week ago, I noticed 
>it was down to 38 atm.  Yikes!  Time for refill.  But time 

Actually, if your gauge reads in atm, couldn't we actually figure
out how much gas is in the tank?  1atm in a tank that holds,
say, 10 liters of gas would be 10 liters.  2atm, would be 20
liters, right?  38atm would be 38 liters.  Once there's some
liquid CO2 in there, all bets are off.  Both my gauges read
in psi, so I hadn't thought of it that way.  Furthermore, if
we knew exactly the volume of the tank, we could probably
calculate how many pints could be pushed out until the tank
pressure dropped below the serving pressure... presuming you
don't assemble your system with those cheap plastic hose
clamps (duh!)... right?

***
Rich asks what he can do about head-killing glassware.

I can only suggest to try what I do.  In a pinch, I use dishwashing
detergent for washing glassware, but ideally, I like to use a percarbonate
 -based cleaner from 5Star.  I think it's called PBW (powdered brewery wash
or something like that).  Any percarbonate-based cleaner without perfumes
should be better than liquid dish soap.  A good rule of thumb is: if it
lathers, don't use it to wash brewing equipment or glassware.

Al.

Al Korzonas
Homer Glen, IL
www.brewinfo.com


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Date: 06 Aug 2003 20:27:17 EDT
From: Stephen.T.Kajdasz at Dartmouth.EDU (Stephen T. Kajdasz)
Subject: Please help with first all-grain brew

So, I attempted my first all-grain brew last week, and the results were not
pretty.  My extraction efficiency was 47%.  I am writing in the hopes that some
of you can pin point my problem. The grain bill:


8.5lbs pale malt

1.0lbs crystal 40

0.5lbs dextrin

0.25lbs wheat


My main problem is that I'm not sure exactly how much calcium and magnesium are
in my water because the town does not give these values.  My water is very
soft.  Part of the report is as follows:


Alkalinity 21.8ppm

Hardness (CaCo3) 19.4ppm

Chlorine 4ppm

Sulfate 6ppm

Sodium 15.76

Chloride 18ppm

pH 7.8


The engineer at the treatment facility said that magnesium is virtually absent,
so I figured that from the hardness calcium had to be very low.  I treated the
water with sodium metabisulfite for the chlorine at about 700mg/20gallons, and
with enough gypsum to add 60ppm calcium (I checked the calculations multiple
times and am confident they are right).  My set up is a 5gl round, Igloo cooler
with a square, slotted manifold.  I started the mash at 155F, and mashed for
one hour stirring every 20 minutes or so with a ratio of 1.5quarts/1pound
grain.  I checked the pH with pH paper at room temperature and it seemed to be
at about 5.2, but I find that the paper is hard to use.  If 5.2 is accurate
then the pH at mash temperature could have been too low.      At the end of the
hour it was about 152F.  I recirculated the wort, and sparged with 170F water
treated with gypsum (do people acidify their sparge water or is OK as is as
long as the temperature is not too high?).  I sparged until I had about 5.5gl
over the course of about 45-1hr.  I stopped because the runoff gravity was
1.010, and the wort gravity (which I checked twice) was showing an efficiency
of only 47% (I made sure the wort was well mixed).  I carefully removed the
grain from the cooler to see if the manifold was intact, and it was.  Not
giving up, the next day I did another mash with the same grain ratio, but half
the amount.  This time I didn't add gypsum, but added calcium carbonate to the
mash at about 60ppm carbonate.  The pH at room temperature seemed to be about
5.5.  My extraction efficiency was again 47%.  All of you have helped me get
this far, and I hope you can get me over this hurdle.  I would appreciate any
advice.  Thanks.


Steve Kajdasz

Lebanon, New Hampshire


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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:24:43 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Lallemandian Origins

			Lallemandian Origins

>From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
>Subject: lallemandian origins
>While we often debate the misty origins of the yeast strains available to
>us, It surprised me to read Lallemand described by Rob Moline as 'the
>American yeast company', given that Lallemand's corporate origin
>and home is Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

     Robin,
     Sorry for my poor language....I meant that Dr. Cone was not only a
consultant to Lallemand, but also to another organization...the American
Yeast Company.
     Lallemand was founded in Montreal at the end of the nineteenth century
by a young immigrant from Alsace, Fred "Lallemand". He built a plant in
Montreal in 1915, and production of bakers yeast started there in 1923. The
plant is still in use today and site of the Lallemand's administrative
offices. Roland Chagnon acquired the Lallemand business in 1952 and his
family is still the current owner.
     For more information on Lallemandian Origins, go to
http://www.lallemand.com/Home/eng/History.shtm

Cheers!
Gump

"The More I Know About Yeast, The More I Realize I Need To Ask Dr. Cone A
Question!"
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