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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really? ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re: Beer and Massive brain anurism. ("Dan McFeeley")
  The reason for the seemingly excessive oxygen requirements? ("Fredrik")
  St. Pat's no longer selling brewing ingredients (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Room enough for 10 gallons? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really? (Michael Hartsock)
  FW: St Pat's Discontinuing Brewing Ingredients ("Hedglin, Nils A")
  used commercial brewing equipment (Marc Sedam)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements (BrewInfo)
  Potato thread/Aneurysm ("Chad Stevens")
  Judges' Comments on Yukon Gold (val.dan.morey)
  1st Annual Hogtown Brew-Off (David Perez)
  Dr. Cone's Responses ("Rob Moline")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *       IN  PROGRESS!       * * * * * * * *
*          Dr. Clayton Cone Fortnight of Yeast          *
*      8/11/03 - 8/22/03 Yeast Questions Answered       *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:42:11 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really?

>From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
>Subject: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really?
>
>     I can add a further caveat...be sure your tanks are
tested/inpected >as
>required....damage to valves is not the only area of concern.
>     Doubters can be referred to Free State in Lawrence, KS., who
>suffered
>through the negligence of their gas/tank supplier to maintain
>standards. A
>steel tank had corroded through the bottom, and indeed became a
>hazard
>through it's subsequent propulsion through several layers of
>ceiling/flooring above the tank storage area.

OK, time for a little horror story, a true story.

Until I recently retired I had been working at a Medical Center and
had the occasional opportunity to see how the "professionals" handled
the cylinders.

Medical centers have O2, Nitrogen, CO2, and whatever else may be in
the gumbo, so this will be a general observation.

The sided flatbed truck arrives, the cylinders of all sizes,
especially the tall ones, about 4-5 foot ones, were handled in this
manner:

The cylinder was tilted about 10 degrees from vertical by the human
operator who held the cylinder with one hand at the top part. The top
had some sort of bullet shaped cover screwed on.  The operator then
caused the cylinder to rotate about his hand as the cylinder spun from
the back of the truck and slammed into the other cylinders loaded into
the front of the truck.  Bang, clang, bang, ring, but thankfully no
HISS.

P.S. I viewed this from some distance away!!!!

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:49:12 -0500
From: "Dan McFeeley" <mcfeeley at keynet.net>
Subject: Re: Beer and Massive brain anurism.

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 Chad Stevens wrote:

>Alcohol in moderation is a vaso-dilator reducing blood pressure.  It is my
>understanding that in heavy doses alcohol can become a vaso-constrictor.
>His family is blaming the aneurysm on his binge three days before rather
>than accepting the fact that diet/lifestyle is the chief culprit (and my
>concern is that they will fall to much the same demise if they don't change
>their eating habits).
>
>So my question is, could the alcohol have played some role in his having
>an aneurysm when chronic high fat/cholesterol/salt intake is the obvious
>culprit?

Hello Chad -- sorry, late response.

Let me insert the standard disclaimer here -- none of this is intended,
or qualifies as medical advice.  I'm not a medical doctor, at best an
emergency room psychiatric intake worker.

It's hard to say what role, if any, the use of alcohol might have played
on the aneurysm giving way.  I'm assuming that an individual with a
poor diet, high blood pressure, was also fairly heavy.  Five beers
would put a person of average weight at about the legal limit for most
states, but a heavier person would have a blood alcohol level less than
that.  That would suggest that any vasoconstrictive effects of the
alcohol would have been minimal.  As another poster already pointed
out, the aneurysm ruptured three days afterwards, so that would also
suggest that the binge could likely be ruled out as the cause.

An aneurysm is a weakened area of a blood vessel that dilates or
balloons outward.  It's easily visible, that is, if its presence is
suspected and the proper tests have been conducted.  A ruptured
aneurysm that massive, virtually displacing one hemisphere of the
brain with blood as you described, was already there, long before
the "binge".  It was certainly a product of lifestyle & diet, and
family history of cardiac disease also has to be taken into account.

With a constant blood pressure of 240/200 and above, as you
also described, it's amazing the aneurysm hadn't ruptured sooner.
With or without the alcohol, it was going to rupture at some point,
especially with a high blood pressure constantly beating on it.  I've
seen instances where an aneurysm will rupture, resulting in death,
where there had been no immediate precipitant.  It was simply old,
tired, overly weakened through time, and finally decided to let itself
go.  Yes, alcohol at high blood concentration levels can exert a
hypertensive effect, but that's really very difficult to assess without
knowing your father-in-law's weight, or blood alcohol level at the
time.

At a time of sudden shock and loss, family member reactions are
going to be emotional, not rational.  Reasoned or logically oriented
responses don't work well here.  It's best to limit personal responses
to the use of alcohol to a simple "I don't think I agree with that," at
the very best, and no more.  What will help the family most is to
get to the point where they can celebrate a long life, and what
your father-in-law meant to everyone.

Hope this is helpful!

<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley




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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:28:59 +0200
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: The reason for the seemingly excessive oxygen requirements?

Hello everyone!

I'm new to posting to this list even though I've subscribed for some time.
I've been at Brews & views and the guys at there said there were alot of
fermentation experts on this list. And also at the same time I found out
that Dr.Cone was going to be here, so I thought I'd try submit some posts.

After all the excellent posts lately on this list I started thining again
about the oxygen requirement for sterol synthesis. I have always thought,
with other peoples experience supporting it that the more oxygen you supply
the better biomass yield will you get (I still think so). But I've also
though that the reason is that the wort gets depleted of oxygen pretty
quick. But this morning I tried to roughly estimate the need for oxygen and
found that it doesn't take alot.

Can someone help me to understand what is really happening?

Here's what I assumed

Biomass(dry) is about 1% sterols (according to George Fix)
For simplicity I assume sterols = 100% ergosterol
squalene contains 0% oxygen
ergosterol contains 4% oxygen

Without checking the mechanism for the sq -> erg, assuming no oxygen is
waste for other stuff it seems the O2 requirements for new healthy biomass
is 0.04%

Assuming 100% utilzation this indicated that a biomass yield of 10% on a 10
plato wort would take no more than an initial oxygen level of about 3-4 ppm.

As this seems contradictory I am now confused?

I am thinking that either

1) maybe there are other processes competing for the oxygen? If so which
onces? I've assumed that nonenzymatic reactions are not relevant in the
timeframe considered here, like in a starter, what do you think?

2) The rate of oxygen uptake is the limiting factor rather than the absolute
depletion of oxygen. Due to the diffusion kinetics and the rate of
requirements of oxygen due to budding, there may be a treshold of DO where
there sterol levels are constant.

3) there is a waste of oxygen in the synthesis of ergosterol?

What is the proper way to resolve this confusion?

If the wort gets really really depleted of oxygen (=0 ppm), whayt the heck
is the oxygen used for? :). It seems from my crude estimations that it can't
all go into sterol synthesis? Are my estimates flawed?

What did I miss? help!

 /Fredrik


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:35:16 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: St. Pat's no longer selling brewing ingredients

I received an e-newsletter that St. Pat's will no longer be selling
brewing ingredients after they use up their inventory, although they
will still be selling brewing equipment.

Although St. Pat's was too far away for me to order from (shipping
charges would have killed me) I'm concerned that another business is ( I
assume ) finding it unprofitable to deal in malt, hops, etc., especially
a seemingly well-run one like St. Pat's.  I wonder if their "H" strains
will continue to be available through Wyeast?

Lynn, are you out there? What happened?



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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:34:57 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Room enough for 10 gallons?

Nate Hall <hallzoo at comcast.net> asks:

>Is it possible to ferment 10 gallons in a 12.2 gal TMS conical without
>blowoff? I want to brew a 10 gal ale using WL California Ale yeast (in a 1
>gallon starter). I haven't yet sealed the lid and made arrangements for a
>blowoff setup. What would you think is the maximum volume you can ferment
>without worrying about blowoff? Thanks for the help!

I don't have a conical fermenter, but I think your answer might be 
anti-foam (can't remember its actual name).  This should allow you to 
use nearly all of your fermenter's nominal capacity.

>I hope that those of you
>on in the Northeast U.S. get your power back soon!

Only lost power here west of Ann Arbor for a little less than 24 
hours.  I did lose 1-1/2 day's bread production.  Just a glimpse of 
the overall economic loss.  I had 20 baguettes I couldn't deliver 
(and 20 more in the oven that were lost), so I just went up and down 
our short street and gave them away to neighbors.  Glad I wasn't 
brewing!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:57:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Exploding CO2 Tanks, Really?

For the record, I meant "explode" in the flames and
fire manner.  In the sense that something might
explode as opposed to implode, yes, CO2 tanks can
explode.

Michael
- --- -S <-s at adelphia.net> wrote:
> Michael Hartsock wriets ...
> 
> > The CO2 tanks are not capable of exploding.
> 
> I doubt that.   As someone (Dave Burley?) noted
> aluminum
> is briittle, less maleable and certainly can
> fracture and
> throw shrapnel.   Unlikely but possible.
> 
> Still the most likely failure is just a crack that
> would create a rocket or more likely a dangerous
> 'spinner'.
> 
> >[...]  you
> >risk having a 1000+ psi steel or aluminum rocket
> fired
> >[...]
> 
> I love/hate to quibble, but CO2 liquifies at 880psig
> at
> room temp. No way you'll see 1000+psi in the CO2
> cylinder head space.   Tho' that's still plenty
> dangerous it's
> well below the pressures available w/ H, He, N & O .
> 
> -S
> 
> 
> 


=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:21:58 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin at intel.com>
Subject: FW: St Pat's Discontinuing Brewing Ingredients

[in case this isn't common knowledge already, from St Pat's website 
www.stpats.com]


Discontinuing Brewing Ingredients
We will discontinue all brewing ingredients including malt, extract, 
hops and yeast. I expect the current inventory to last until November 
(2 container of malt have not even arrived yet and a container of malt 
extract just arrived.) We will continue to stock reorder yeast until the

malt and grain run out. This decision was most difficult because our 
roots are in brewing and many of the ingredients we sell are unique in 
North America, not to mention homebrewing ingredients are still a very 
significant portion of our sales and are still growing. However, I need 
space, time and energy to continue to expand the business in other 
directions. We will continue to sell brewing equipment to both 
homebrewers and commercial breweries and in fact will be adding products

to this line. We will continue to offer the CellarCraft Wine kits and
yeast
and chemicals for winemaking. 

St. Pats grew dramatically during the boom of homebrewing in the early 
90's, followed by modest annual double digit growth through the late
90's 
when the industry declined dramatically. Our most significant period of
growth 
began in early 2000 and by early 2001 we moved to make changes to 
accomodate the growth and also to control it. These include the new 
warehouse including mezzanine level, UPS/St. Pats software integration 
(special thanks to Paul and UPS), 80' of packaging conveyor, 2 more work

stations, two more internet terminals, commercial palletizing and
handling 
equipment, and online freight calculator. In addition we curtailed
walk-in 
hours, instituted minimum orders, and eliminated US Postal shipping due 
to the inefficiency of postal (international, AFO, and FPO postal orders

require considerable paperwork and delivery to the post office). We 
systematically eliminated all but one brewing ad a couple of years ago 
in an attempt to control growth. More recently, we eliminated many 
profitable products (honey, agave, soda and liqueur extracts, many 
chemicals, some grains, amber and dark extract, many home bar supplies) 
in order to focus on our core business. We increased minimum quantities 
of some products to enhance efficiency. And now we will drop all brewing

ingredients. We are deeply appreciative for the support of our customers

and regret any inconvenience these changes may cause. 

Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
[1978.7, 275.3] Apparent Rennerian
In Heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here,
And when we're gone from here, our friends will be drinking all the
beer.


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:04:16 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: used commercial brewing equipment

Hey all,

I know there are a few good sources for used commercial brewing 
equipment, but I've lost the websites.  Anyone know of good sites? 
 Looking for >30bbl systems.

 -Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/





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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:22:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo)
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements

Dr. Cone,
Thank you for taking the time to answer all our questions.

I'm following up not on my own questions, but on one from another
HBD member.  In a response about oxygen requirements, you said

>I do not know how you will be able to control the rate of sterol production
>or the total amount.  Yeast can produce the precursor squalene with no
>oxygen, then with very little oxygen, 10 - 15 ppm, it can move squalene up
>to sterol.

In Homebrew Digest #1446, the immortal Dr. Fix reported results from
some tests he performed using oxygen and verified that the dissolved
oxygen levels (unless held artificially high with constant oxygenation)
are strongly dependent on the specific gravity of the wort and the
levels are quite a bit lower than the ones you have said various yeasts
require for a healthy ferment:

SG            54.4F (12.5C)       59F (15C)       68F (20C)
1.030 (7.5P)       8.1ppm           7.5ppm          6.5ppm
1.040 (10P)        7.7ppm           7.1ppm          6.2ppm
1.060 (15P)        6.9ppm           6.3ppm          5.6ppm
1.080 (20P)        5.7ppm           5.5ppm          5.0ppm


Are you suggesting that we need to artificially keep our oxygen levels
above the normal solubility for proper yeast growth, or is there such
a big gap between theory and practice?

In another answer you said that some wineries will add oxygen near
the end of fermentation to restart a stuck ferment when there was
insufficient oxygen at the beginning of the ferment.  Shouldn't
that include a caveat that adding oxygen in the middle or end of
a ferment is at the expense of shelf life and will result in an
increased amount of aldehydes in the finished beer/wine.  Also,
although not unwelcome in an ale, increased oxygen means increased
oxidation of alpha-acetolactic acid to diacetyl.  I have had some
bottles of Samuel Smith's beers that had excessive diacetyl, even
for an ale.  Samuel Smith's uses pumps to get their highly flocculent
yeast back into suspension and although their fermentation room
relatively quickly fills up with CO2, anytime there are humans
in there, they run fans to evacuate the CO2 and replace it with air,
so some oxidation is inevitable (excessive, I suggest, on some
batches).

Thank you again.

Al.

Al Korzonas
Homer Glen, IL
www.brewinfo.com


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:38:19 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Potato thread/Aneurysm

Subject: Potato thread/Aneurysm


With regard to waxy potatoes and silky beer, just a little expansion on the
subject for the uninitiated....  There are two types of starch: amylose and
amylopectin.  Amylose is a linear structure and readily fermentable.
Amylopectin is a globular/branched structure and takes a little more work to
gelatinize and hydrolyze.  For a better description read:

http://www.msstate.edu/org/fsfa/Vol1/4-1-waniska.htm

There are two major types of potato: baking and boiling.  Russets or Idahos
are for baking and are relatively high in amylose.  Reds and whites are for
boiling and are relatively high in amylopectin.  It is amylopectin which is
desired for silkiness.  Read this link for additional info:

 http://www.ochef.com/167.htm

 Tapioca is also high in amylopectin and should provide a similar result.
Just remember, to properly gelatinize amylopectin, boil long-boil hard.

 Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego

 P.S. I'm not sure how, or I didn't intend to give the impression that, my
Father-in-law died.  In fact, he is making a remarkable recovery.  It's been
nine days now and he is regaining some sensation on his left side and has
fed himself.  Thanks for all the input, support, and the reminder that we
are not merely beer drinkers, homebrewers are family.  Thanks.



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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:34:05 -0500
From: val.dan.morey at juno.com
Subject: Judges' Comments on Yukon Gold

Nathan is correct, red potatoes are waxy and Yukon golds are more of a
starchy variety similar to Russet.  In my previous email I ignored the
oil/wax content since the Yukon gold beer was also silky.  Since I used
67% more potatoes in Yukon gold, it is likely that a similar amount of
wax was extracted.  Good point Nathan.

As for the judges comments there were not anything negative that I can
attribute to potatoes.  It was entered as a CAPs.  Below is the feedback
I received:

Aroma:
judge 1:  9 points - Grainy, good and clean.  Good hop nose.  Kind of
light.
judge 2:  8 points - Clean, a little grainy, good for style.  Good hop
aroma but could be stronger.

Appearance:
judge 1:  1 point - Good color, a little hazy (from foaming at opening),
head dissipated quickly.
judge 2:  1 point - Bottle was bright clear but when opened the bottom of
the bottle stirred up leaving the appearance of cloudiness in the glass. 
Head was a little flat.

Flavor:
judge 1:  8 points - Where did the hops go?  Not enough bitterness (there
but not strong enough).  Hops lacking other flavors good.  Unbalanced.
judge 2:  12 points - Nice grainy flavor and sweetness.  Balance malt and
corn flavor nicely.  Some hop bitterness is there but a little more would
be ok.  Hop flavor should be raised.

Mouthfeel:
judge 1:  3 points - Good carbonation
judge 2:  3 points - Medium body.  ok carbonation on the tongue.

Overall Impression:
judge 1:  7 points - Right stuff, wrong quantities.  Need more hops.  Not
bad beer needs more balance.  malts are good.  Needs hop balance.
judge 2:  5 points - An ok beer.  The grain profile was nice for this
beer.  The aroma started ok but the hop character is a little low for the
style.  Raise the hops and a little more cold conditioning would bump
this beer up to the next level.

I only bottled two bottles for the competition and rest was kegged. 
Obviously they were over carbonated.  I suspect that the high carbonation
masked hop flavor and bitterness.  The keg version, was right on in my
opinion using Jeff's CAP as my reference.  Also the yeast was disturbed
causing a hazy appearance.  If the carbonation was correct, I suspect the
score would have been 33 to 34 instead of 29.  Perhaps the only negative
that could be contributed to potatoes would be "flat head" due to the
waxes/oils they contribute.

The score sheet also points to one of the most common judging errors,
assuming something about the beer.  There was no corn, but one judge
commented on the good malt corn balance.

Cheers,
Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble/


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:08:30 -0400
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: 1st Annual Hogtown Brew-Off

The competition you have been waiting for is finally here! The Hogtown 
Brewers, in Gainesville Florida, are proud to announce the 1st Annual 
Hogtown Brew-Off, on October 11, 2003. We will be holding this 
incredible judging event at the luxurious Market Street Pub (ok, its 
just a nice Pub, but go with flow here, alright). Along with the judging 
activities we will also feature an amazing One Pub, Pub Crawl as well as 
a spectacular Hog Roast to cap off the festivities.
 
All hyperbole aside (well maybe not quite all), please help the new 
competition on the block by sending ten or so entries (3 bottles each of 
course) to what we hope will become one of the premier competitions on 
the Florida circuit. We will be accepting entries for all 26 BJCP 
categories beginning September 15 and ending October 3. Get your entries 
in early and get em in often. For more information please go to 
http://www.hbd.org/hogtown/  
 
Dave Perez, Hogtown Brew-Off Organizer
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, Fl




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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:40:43 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone's Responses

			Dr. Cone's Responses
     Having crafted concise commentary regarding conversation with Dr. Cone
last week, where he let it be known that some questions would take longer,
as opinions vary, and the latest research deserves consideration...
     And having pulled that post.....as the sheer depth of quality of the
incoming responses from Dr. Cone could only negate any complaint regarding
quantity....
     I must state that many questions may take longer still, as Dr. Cone is
currently dealing with an unexpected family event.
     I know I speak for the entire HBD when I offer our condolences.

Rob Moline

- ---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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---