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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Compiling and publishing Dr. Cone's Responses (Pat Babcock)
  Hop Back / Percolator ("Rudolf Krondorfer")
  Rubbermaid Mash Tun questions ("Davison, Patrick")
  Re: Electrical Element Wattage Density (Dion Hollenbeck)
  1st all grain brew & resultant questions (Chet Nunan)
  Re;  K metabisulfite ("William Frazier")
  Thanks to all for Denver inputs! (Alex Hazlett)
  Split Rock 2003 HB Competition ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Packing Dried Hops (Demonick)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements - Al Korzonas ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Freezing dried yeast-Brian Lundeen ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Cell density of Brett? Lambic beer? - Eric Dahlberg ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - Lager Pitching Temperature - David Lamotte ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Cell Counts ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Killer Strains ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Autolysis ("Rob Moline")
  Dr Cone Responds - freezing yeast ("Rob Moline")
  Pierre Rajotte's yeast book (Tony Barnsley)
  Plastic lids for bottles ("")
  breweries using just one yeast (Rama Roberts)
  re: you've got mail ("Chad Gould")
  Organizing All This Stuff ("Dave Larsen")
  low carb beer ("Don Howard")
  Spam... (Michael)
  Sprue (AJ)
  Batch Sparge Calculator? (Jay Hellhound)
  Dr. Cone Responds-Training Yeast-Alexandre Enkerli ("Rob Moline")
  avoiding spam (Alan McKay)
  Deschutes Black Butte Porter Recipe ("Richard Schmittdiel")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *       IN  PROGRESS!       * * * * * * * *
*          Dr. Clayton Cone Fortnight of Yeast          *
*      8/11/03 - 8/22/03 Yeast Questions Answered       *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:11:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Compiling and publishing Dr. Cone's Responses

Greeting, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Folks: restraint, please. 

You must follow the general rules for material on the HBD before
doing such as has been proposed here, even if said compilation
is for free distribution: ask permission of the HBD and of the
individuals involved in this exchange.

I caution those who are planning to compile the Dr. Cone
exchange to garner the necessary permission explicitly, 
especially the latter permission - that of the posters.

Thanks.

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:04:01 +0200
From: "Rudolf Krondorfer" <rudolf.krondorfer at sensonor.no>
Subject: Hop Back / Percolator

Hello.

After struggling with little aroma in the beer following
a change from immersion chiller to counterflow-chiller,
I have decided to add a Hop Back to my brewing equipment.
With this addition comes to questions:

1. Is a percolator and a Hop-back the same thing?
2. Where can one buy this? Does anybody have experience with
 any commercially available Hop Backs?

I mostly brew about 13gal for each batch (max 26gal), so
the Hop Back has to be dimensioned thereafter.

Take care all of you.

Kind regards,
Rudolf Krondorfer


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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:36:49 -0400
From: "Davison, Patrick" <Davison at nsf.org>
Subject: Rubbermaid Mash Tun questions

As part of a raffle associated with a golf outing, I received a Rubbermaid
five gallon beverage cooler.  Lacking five gallons of non-carbonated
beverages to keep cool, I thought I would convert it to a mash tun and
further my all-grain capabilities (I have a Zap-ap ala Papazian, but figure
it's a good time to step up the equipment).  I'm currently an occasional
homebrewer (~6 batches/year, mostly extracts with specialty grains, no
kegging system).

I've lurked around in the HBD archives and noticed a ton of options out
there.  Can anybody offer first-hand experience on the Phils Phalse Bottom,
Kewler, or other configurations, as well as places to purchase such items?

Off-line responses are welcome.

Thanks everybody,

Pat Davison
Fashionable Ferndale, MI
[36.5, 72.1] AR







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Date: 26 Aug 2003 05:49:54 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical Element Wattage Density

>> Dan Listermann writes:

DL>  For years I have used common hot water elements to boil my brews.
DL> I run them at 240V.  I have used a 5500W element and, if memory
DL> serves, it produced over 100 watts per square inch.  I never
DL> noticed scorching

While there may not be any scorching, one of the purposes of a boil is
to denature the enzymes, which in a mash, I warned against.

It would be *really* good to be proven wrong about heat density, but I
surely do not want to be the one to go over beyond the envelope.

dion




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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: 1st all grain brew & resultant questions

Hello all;

I recently started brewing again after a long layoff. 
Previously I just did extract brews, but I jumped into
all grain for my return.  My system is a 5 gal round
rubbermaid cooler for a mash tun, and a 5 gal igloo ss
liner round cooler with a bru-heat unit for the boil. 

During mash in, my mash temp dropped to 145 (strike
water was 185)approx 3/4 of the way in, so I heated
some of the mash on a hot plate and added back several
times until the temp hit 155.  I was doing an overnite
mash, and the next morning the temp was at
142...despite having wrapped the cooler in an
insulated pad & a "space blanket", and having used an
expanding foam to fill the cooler lid.  

Thanks to this forum, I have found several helpful
ideas such as preheating the mash tun (duh, why didn't
I think of that?) and not stirring as much.  While
these tricks should help my mash temp at mash in, the
double digit temp drop overnite seemed excessive.  Any
thoughts?  

Am I right in assuming that despite where my mash temp
starts, by dropping into the 140 - 150 range overnite,
I'll get the higher fermentables and drier beer?  My
OG on this batch was approx. 1.079, FG approx. 1.009.
Grain bill was 12# 2 row, 1#crystal 20, 1/2# carapils,
1/2# biscuit.

Next question...I know this is a strong beer, but I
get a horrible hangover from it!  A 1/2 gal growler
over an evening is a guaranteed head pounder.  My
fermentation temp was 72 ambient (2 - 4 degrees higher
due to the ferm process?), and it spent 2 weeks in
primary, 2 weeks in secondary, and one week in a keg
(force carbonated).  

Was the ferm temp too high? It was the upper limit for
the White Labs Cal ale yeast I used.  Will this
headache causing tendency dissipate with further
aging?  If so, how much additional aging?

Lastly, I use well water, softened.  I don't have a
water analysis to refer to.  I added 1 tsp. gypsum to
the boil.  Should this have gone into the strike water
for the mash?  Despite the low mash temp and
err...enthusiastic (excessive?)hopping, the smell and
initial taste are rather sweet/fruity.  While I think
it's probably helped this batch, I'm curious if this
is the result of the soft water, or the higher ferm
temps? 

Thanks for any thoughts...hope I didn't carry on too
long...

Chet Nunan
Churubusco IN








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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:04:39 -0500
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re;  K metabisulfite

Larry Suarez wants to know how to adjust sulfites in wine.
Larry - You need to be able to measure the free SO2 in your wine.  One easy
way is to use Titrets which contain a reagent (based on the Ripper test)
that reacts with free SO2.  Then, depending on your test result you can add
K metabilulfite to increase SO2 if needed.  The test is rapid and easy to
do.  These Titret Kits should be available at Homebrew/Winemaking shops.
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Hazlett <alexdhaze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Thanks to all for Denver inputs!

   With the help of several HBDers, my wife and I
managed to find some very good beer in and around
Denver. 
   We got to Tommyknockers in Idaho Springs (a tasty
IPA), BJs (VERY good for beer and for food, prices
were reasonable too) and the Walnut Brewery (a
fabulous root beer, you could smell it across the
table) in Boulder, and the Falling Rock Taphouse (not
so many beers available as on the wallls, and an
abysmal lack of porter) Wynkoop's (VERY good beer,
VERY good food, my number one pick--closely ahead of
BJs) and the Rock Bottom (food good, beer good, I'd go
again for sure) in Denver downtown. 
   We also visited Liquor Mart in Boulder and
Applejack Liquor in Denver-- you've got to love
supermarket-sized liquor stores (though they still
pale before the "Beer-for-Less" warehouse of alcohol
in Butler,PA...).
   I also drank a fair amount of Odell's Cutthroat
Porter, that's a tasty beer.
   Oh, and we saw the family and friends too.
   Thanks again for all the info, I only wish I could
have gotten to the 'Foam on the Range' club's annual
picnic (had to attend a big family function-- poor
planning on their <the family> part...)
Alex Hazlett



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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:10:55 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Split Rock 2003 HB Competition

I am please to announce that there will be homebrew competition on November
22nd, 9am promptly, at the Split Rock Resort in the Poconos of Pennsylvania
in conjunction with their annual Micro Brew Festival.  Contrary to the web
information, judging will only be on Saturday.  Entry fees, $5, will go to
the Make-A-Wish Foundation.  This is a sanctioned competition and will use
the standard BJCP/AHA style guidelines judging all beer, mead and cider
styles.  Entries should be shipped to The Resort at Split Rock, One Lake
Drive, Lake Harmony, PA 18624, Attention: Shelly Kalins Lutz, for receipt
from November 12 to November 19.  Two (2) brown or green bottles with no
markings are required; please no glue or tape on the bottles -- just secure
bottle identification with rubber bands.  Any standard 8.5x11 entry forms
identifying the brewer and the appropriate entry category/subcategory are
acceptable.  Any standard homebrew competition entry and bottle
identification forms are acceptable.  

Judges and Stewards will be needed and they should contact me or Shelly
Kalins Lutz [srinfo at splitrockresort.com]  to secure a position.  Judges and
Stewards may hand carry their entries if they pre-register with payment and
show up at least 1/2 hour early.  Checks should be made out to The Resort At
Split Rock.  Judges will receive an entry to the beer festival or entry to
the beer dinner for their efforts and need to indicate which they wish when
they commit to participate.  The BOS winner will receive a complementary
weekend for two at next year's Split Rock Beer Fest.  But just entering
makes you a winner for helping a good cause.  More information will be
available at the Split Rock web site
(http://www.splitrockresort.com/gba_homebrew.html).

David Houseman
Competition Organizer
david.houseman at verizon.net


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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:22:34 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Packing Dried Hops

I've packed homegrown hops in corny kegs.  Make sure that the kegs seal
well.  Use plenty of keg lube if you need.  Purge well with CO2.  The hops
will last a very long time.  Every time you open the keg, repurge. 

I think that home drying results in a much drier product than the
commercial product.  Not sure why, and I didn't worry too much about it.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:28 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements - Al Korzonas

			Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements - Al Korzonas
Dr. Cone,
   Thank you for taking the time to answer all our questions.
   I'm following up not on my own questions, but on one from another
HBD member.  In a response about oxygen requirements, you said
>I do not know how you will be able to control the rate of sterol production
>or the total amount.  Yeast can produce the precursor squalene with no
>oxygen, then with very little oxygen, 10 - 15 ppm, it can move squalene up
>to sterol.
   In Homebrew Digest #1446, the immortal Dr. Fix reported results from
some tests he performed using oxygen and verified that the dissolved
oxygen levels (unless held artificially high with constant oxygenation)
are strongly dependent on the specific gravity of the wort and the
levels are quite a bit lower than the ones you have said various yeasts
require for a healthy ferment:

SG            54.4F (12.5C)       59F (15C)       68F (20C)
1.030 (7.5P)       8.1ppm           7.5ppm          6.5ppm
1.040 (10P)        7.7ppm           7.1ppm          6.2ppm
1.060 (15P)        6.9ppm           6.3ppm          5.6ppm
1.080 (20P)        5.7ppm           5.5ppm          5.0ppm

   Are you suggesting that we need to artificially keep our oxygen levels
above the normal solubility for proper yeast growth, or is there such
a big gap between theory and practice?
   In another answer you said that some wineries will add oxygen near
the end of fermentation to restart a stuck ferment when there was
insufficient oxygen at the beginning of the ferment.  Shouldn't
that include a caveat that adding oxygen in the middle or end of
a ferment is at the expense of shelf life and will result in an
increased amount of aldehydes in the finished beer/wine.  Also,
although not unwelcome in an ale, increased oxygen means increased
oxidation of alpha-acetolactic acid to diacetyl.  I have had some
bottles of Samuel Smith's beers that had excessive diacetyl, even
for an ale.  Samuel Smith's uses pumps to get their highly flocculent
yeast back into suspension and although their fermentation room
relatively quickly fills up with CO2, anytime there are humans
in there, they run fans to evacuate the CO2 and replace it with air,
so some oxidation is inevitable (excessive, I suggest, on some
batches).
   Thank you again.
Al Korzonas

Al,
   Good to hear from you again.
   xygen is a difficult topic to address. It is easy to talk about it
academically but how do you talk about it practically to the home brewer.
How do you know precisely how many ppm of O2 that you need and how does the
home beer maker deliver the exact ppm O2 required?  You have pointed out one
of the variables: O2 saturation is dependent on wort gravity and
temperature.  The irony is that the higher the gravity the lower the O2
solubility and saturation, yet the yeast requirement is usually higher.
Further aeration with air, after the yeast has been added, may be required
to achieve the desired amount of O2 needed. The solubility of pure O2 in
wort is greater than the O2 from air, so the desired requirement via pure O2
can be achieved with the initial addition.
   The yeast requirement varies with the strain.  In the wine industry some
strains require twice as much O2 to maintain a constant CO2 output as other
strains.  The same probably holds true with beer and distillery yeast.
   The yeast requirement for a particular inoculum is dependent on the
quality
of the yeast at the time of pitching. A yeast starved for O2 from the
previous fermentation will require more O2 than one having received an
adequate amount. Most commercially produced Active Dry Beer yeast actually
require no O2 addition for a successful average gravity wort fermentation.
There is enough lipids built into the cell at the yeast factory. It will
need O2 addition on the next re-pitching. Re-pitching yeast held under
stressful conditions have a delayed response to O2 uptake. Under pitching
requires more O2 than over pitching. Some beer makers do not have adequate
refrigeration so they restrict the O2 addition in order to control yeast
growth and thus fermentation temperature.
   O2 delivery system and contact time plays a crucial role in O2
solubility:
porous stone vs. pin hole in pipes, pure O2 vs. air, bubble coalescence vs.
bubble integrity, short vs. tall fermenter. The list goes on.
   I am not sure how defined the over oxidation line is. If the yeast
actually
requires 6 ppm O2 and you add 7 ppm O2, do you automatically begin to
produce unfavorable by-products?
   Your caveats regarding late addition of O2 is well taken.  Late addition
of
O2 should be done only as a desperate move to unstick a fermentation. This
has become routine first step taken in the wine industry to speed up a
sluggish fermentation or unstick a stuck fermentation.  Of course the wine
industry may not be as sensitive to some of the fermentation by-products as
the brewing industry.
   Yeast are tremendous O2 scavengers. Live yeast addition to the beer at
the
time of bottling offer protection from oxygen. I am not sure if it is at the
cost of by-product problems. Two or more additions of O2 occurs routinely at
breweries that require two or more batches of wort to fill a fermenter.
Sometimes highly O2 saturated water is added to the fermenting mash. OG
corrected for the added water.
   It would have been wiser of me to have given a range of 0 to 15+ ppm O2.
   Thank you again for your comments.  Dialogue is a good thing. After all
these years, I am still learning.

Clayton Cone

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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:30 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Freezing dried yeast-Brian Lundeen

			Dr. Cone Responds - Freezing dried yeast-Brian Lundeen

   First of all, my thanks to you for taking part in this forum.
   Awhile back, your always helpful Sigrid Gertsen-Briand mentioned to me
that
preliminary trials at Lallemand had suggested that freezing dried yeast was
not good for the yeast in some way. Anecdotally, some homebrewers and
winemakers have mentioned that they have no problems using dry yeast that
has been stored in the freezer.
   Could you please expand on this and let me know if any additional work
has
been done on this topic?
Thanks
Brian


Brian,
   The original research on Active Dry Yeast shelf life stability was done
over
60 years ago. The interest at that time was stability at room temperature
(20C) and at refrigerated temperature (4 C). The dry yeast was not designed
with freeze storage in mind. No real studies were made on storage in a
freezer.
   We have found out recently that many people have been storing our Active
Dry
Yeast in freezers for years with no apparent adverse effect. A preliminary
freeze storage trial with one of our strains indicated some damage was done.
This may indicate that the damage might be strain related.  It is too early
to draw any conclusion.  We will continue to investigate.
   Thanks for your interest.  We will keep you posted.
Clayton Cone

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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:29 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Cell density of Brett? Lambic beer? - Eric Dahlberg

		Dr. Cone Responds - Cell density of Brett? Lambic beer? - Eric Dahlberg

Dr. Cone asked: I am curious why are you interested in a procedure for
rapidly increasing the cell density of Brett?  Lambic beer?
   That is exactly why. I can't get enough lambic beer. Which leads to
another question or two, if there is space/time to answer.
An 11 month old lambic with the waxy pellicle at the top behaves very
differently at only slightly (in my mind) different temperatures.
Between 70 - 74F there appears to be little, if any activity in the
carboy. But if the temp in my closet (where it's stored) gets above 75,
a steady stream of extremely tiny bubbles (assumed to be CO2) are seen.
I originally thought that it was simply CO2 coming out of solution, but
the thickness of the waxy layer at the top seems to shrink and grow
(slightly) with the temp too.
   It seems odd that there would be such an on/off temperature range for
the yeast and bacteria to be active at - any ideas? I never allow the
temp in my house above 80F, so I don't know if the activity continues to
accelerate past that point.
     Also, I know the phenomenon we call beer skunking is a result of light
and hop oils reacting, but I am wondering if my nightly ritual of
shining a flashlight into the carboy may be having any negative effect
on my yeast? Photosensitive yeast?
   I have many questions, but there are others who deserve some bandwidth,
so I'll stop here.
   Thank you again,
Eric Dahlberg


Eric,
   I really have only a smattering of experience with Lambic beer.  Dr.
Jean-Xavier Guinard's book Classic Beer #3 Style Series
LAMBIC ISBN: 0-937381-22-5, should give you all the information that you
need.
   The literature mentions light struck and sun struck in the same sentence
as
if they were the same. The sun rays have the light spectrum that has the
energy to cause the problem with the hops.  I have seen many good beers made
in clear glasscarboys located in a kitchen, cellar and closet with electric
lights with no
apparent problem with light struck/sun struck.  So a flash light should not
be of any consequence.
   I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong.

Clayton Cone

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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:30 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - Lager Pitching Temperature - David Lamotte

		Dr. Cone, 2003 - Lager Pitching Temperature - David Lamotte

Dr. Cone,
   I would like to add my thanks to you for your generous contributions,
and to the previous posters for their thoughtful questions.
    From previous discussions on the HBD and a number of brewing texts,
there appears to be two schools of thought regarding lager yeast
pitching temperatures.
   One suggests that you pitch a lot of yeast at or below the fermentation
temp (8-12C) in order to minimise that amount of esters etc produced.
   The other suggests that you pitch the normal amount at ambient room
temperature and begin cooling down to your fermentation temperature once
the first visible signs of fermentation begin.
   My concern with the second method is that the fermentation will proceed
at too high a rate unless you have a large 'cooling power' available.
   Do you have any information on the effect that pitching temperature has
on lager fermentations.
Thanks again,
David Lamotte

David,
   Both methods are satisfactory for lager production. Pitching at a warmer
temperature will begin the production of more yeast.  While the yeast is
growing there will be less ester production because the acyl CoA needed for
ester production is tied up with yeast production.  You may have a slight
problem of cooling if you do not have adequate refrigeration.  Pitching at a
cooler temperature with at a higher pitching rate will result in less yeast
production and more ester production. It would be difficult to tell which
would end up with the most esters.
Clayton Cone
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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:29 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Cell Counts

			Dr. Cone Responds - Cell Counts

Dr. Cone,
   As others have mentioned, thank you very much for the opportunity...
   My question is on yeast cell counts within a starter. Assuming one began
with a 1L of 1.040 starter wort, and 50 ml of yeast containing 15 billion
cells that has an Apparent Attenuation of 75%:
   1) What would the cell count be in the starter if allowed to go to
completion? How about with a 2L starter of the same gravity?
   2) What would the cell count be in the starter if continuously stirred
and
allowed to go to completion? How about with a 2L starter of the same
gravity?
   Thanks once again.
Cheers,
Mike Dixon


Mike,
   This is not an easy question to answer. There are too many variables.
   1. 50 ml. of yeast containing 15 billion yeast cells = 300,000,000 yeast
cells per ml. That is a remarkable amount of yeast per ml. to start with.  I
assume that this initial quantity of yeast came from a yeast cake that you
dissolved into 50 ml. When you add this to 1 liter you will then have 15
million yeast cells per ml. When you add it to 2 liters you will have 7.5
million yeast cells per ml. . If there is adequate nutrients in the wort
there should be 100 - 150 million yeast cells per milliter when the yeast
reaches the stationary phase. This should hold true for both the 1 liter and
2 liter starter culture. With low levels of nitrogen, minerals and vitamins,
this count be reduced by 50%.  Yeast strains can make a difference in the
growth rate and final numbers at the stationary phase.
   2. Aeration and stirring can increase the cell count by 50 to 100%.
   I wish that I could be more precise.
Clayton Cone
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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:31 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Killer Strains

			Dr. Cone Responds - Killer Strains

Dr. Cone--
   Are there "killer strains" of beer yeast as there are in wine yeasts?
Al.

Al,
   Yes.  There are killer strains in every genus and specie of yeast. Yeast
are
divided into three categories regarding the killer factor:
   1. Killer positive--this strain produces a killer factor and cannot be
effected by another yeast that produces a killer factor.
   2. Killer sensitive--this strain does not produce a killer factor and is
effected by a strain that does.
   3. Neutral-- this strain do not produce a killer factor nor are they
effected by a yeast with a killer factor
   It is important to know that a killer factor from one specie cannot kill
a
yeast from another specie.
   All three categories are in common use in the wine industry with out any
problems with cross contamination when good sanitary practices and proper
inoculating volumes are used.
   Extended re-pitching where killer yeast plus neutral and sensitive yeast
in
the same plant are used would not be advisable.
   Killer yeast may be used more often that suspected, since beer yeast
strains
are not always screened for the killer factor.
Clayton Cone

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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:31 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Autolysis

			Dr. Cone Responds - Autolysis

Dr. Cone--
   The first books I read on homebrewing all talked about the dangers of
autolysis.  I have only experienced it in several meads that I made
with wine yeast and that was after two or three years in the *primary*
fermenter on the entire yeast cake.
   Were these early homebrewing books overemphasizing the likelihood of
off aromas (rubbery, etc.) and flavours from autolysis, or was it a
bigger problem with yeasts that were of questionable viability and
probably stored, unrefridgerated, for months?
Thanks.
Al.

Al,
   Autolysis is always something that you have to consider if you leave mead
on
the yeast after all of the sugar has been converted to alcohol. Many of the
yeast have already died by the end of the fermentation and the remainder
will die soon, rubbery.  Within a few weeks most of the yeast will died and
begin to autolyze. The right amount of autolysis produces a nice nutty
character to the mead. You need to get the right balance of autolysis.
   If your mead fermentation takes many months for completion you will run
into
the possibility of producing off flavors and aromas. Extended fermentation
time indicates unhealthy yeast that can produce skunky off flavors and
aromas. Unhealthy yeast comes from lack of nutrients and oxygen earlier in
the fermentation. Honey contains very little nutrients for yeast growth. You
will need to supplement with a well balanced nutrient such as Fermaid K.
Honey also contains very little if any buffering material. The pH will drop
dramatically during the first few hours of fermentation, sometimes to as low
as 2.7 -2.9. This will seriously stress the yeast, producing a very
unhealthy yeast cell resulting in a long drawn out fermentation.  This
problem can be minimized by adding a small amount of potassium carbonate at
the beginning of the fermentation.
   You should strive for the fermentation to be completed in one to two
weeks.
If you want a light, fruity mead, you will need to settle, rack and filter
ASAP.  If you want to age the mead on the lees or yeast then you should
allow to settle lightly to get rid of some of the yeast. Rack while still
cloudy to have some yeast left. This yeast will autolyse. Stir weekly until
you have achieved the amount of nutty toasty character that you desire. This
can range from a couple of weeks to several months. Stirring speeds up the
release of the autolyzed amino acids from the yeast cell.
   Champagne houses leave the champagne on the yeast for three or more years
to
get the full yeasty, nutty, toasty effect.  They cannot stir to speed up the
reaction.
Clayton Cone
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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:31 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr Cone Responds - freezing yeast

			Dr Cone Responds - freezing yeast

Hi Dr Cone,
   Some advise on freezing yeast please.
at the moment I store yeast on slants and re-propagate
about every four to six months. I believe you can store
frozen for twelve months using glycerine and some other
ingredients. Can I do this on slants In a home freezer.
Please advise on temps and techniques.
Neville


Neville,
   Freezing yeast is very tricky. At the temperature normally associated
with a
household freezer, ice crystals begin to form within the cell and often
times grow large enough to rupture the cell, even in the presence of
glycerol. To prevent the crystal formation we begin by harvesting the yeast
in the exponential phase and mix 50:50 with glycerol and divided into very
small vials. This is instantly frozen and stored at -80C.
   Our technique gives us assurance that a large % of the population will
survive the frozen state many years and revive in a healthy condition.  Any
technique short of this offers no guarantee.
   A 50:50 mixture of yeast (about 12-18 hours into a fermentation) and
glycerol, divided into very small aliquots, and quick frozen and stored in a
household freezer might allow a small % of the yeast cells to survive over a
year or two.  It only take a few surviving viable yeast cells to start up a
new starter culture.
   Your present technique of re propagating and preparing new slants is the
safest. If you seal the tubes airtight with wax and store as close to 35F as
possible, you should be able to reslant on a less frequent bases, perhaps a
year.
   If you try the 50:50 yeast/glycerol in your freezer, let me know the
results. Use the methylene blue technique to determine viability.
Clayton
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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:46:43 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Pierre Rajotte's yeast book

Hi fellow fermentation scientists,

Following a recent discussion here in the UK, a few people would like to get
hold of a copy of 'An Introduction to Yeast Culturing For Homebrewers' by
Pierre Rajotte. I have tried one email for him but received No reply, does
anyone else know where I can buy say 10 copies of said book.

Regards

The Scurrilous Aleman

Email Disclaimer is:
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/democracy/corpdocs/EmailDisclaimer.htm

This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange
as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:58:33 -0500
From: "" <courtney03 at iquest.net>
Subject: Plastic lids for bottles

I remember while being a steward at a NW Florida AHA Homebrew Competition (a
while ago - mid 1990s) that they had these plastic lids for the bottles that
were used after pouring the first round for the judges.  As I remember, they
were like the ones used for the old 16 oz Pepsi/Coke returnable bottles, but not
as sturdy - these were more disposable, covering the bottle opening with a
pretty snug fit, and had a small notch/tab for easy opening (not the PET
screw-on type).

They most likely wouldn't be able to keep carbonation for long (who in their
right mind would have a partial bottle of homebrew for longer than 5 minutes
outside of a homebrew competition, anyway??).  But these would be very handy for
keeping empty, cleaned and sanitized bottles for your next brewing session.  I
have a kegging system, but like to bottle on occasion for friends/travel/etc.

Has anyone else seen these around lately, and/or where can I get some?

Thanks, 
Scott Courtney
Indy, IN


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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:28:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at sun.com>
Subject: breweries using just one yeast

Dr Cone's response about the top 5 variables in brewing a good beer listed
"yeast strain" as 2nd only to "wort preparation and composition".

This reminded me of something I was shocked to learn was happening in a
couple of the larger breweries in my area, and wondered if it was a common
practice in breweries: using a single yeast strain for all of the
beers produced there, presumably for ease of preparation and storage.
At least one of these breweries uses this same general purpose ale yeast
to produce their wheat beer too (blech!)

It seems to work for them, as these breweries are doing financially well
and their beers are well regarded by most- but I can't help but feel
these guys are either sell-outs and/or rookies, regardless of how well
they're doing (and what the typical American palate craves).

I'd hate to think there are good brewers/breweries out there going under
by producing good and accurate beer styles using the appropriate yeast
strains, instead of the bland and largely similar beers that many have
come to expect?

- --rama
SF bay area


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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:54:10 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: re: you've got mail

> > I got about 5 from the HBD mail responder. As if the spam problem wasn't
> > enough, this starts to make email unusable as a communication media.
> >  All the best and a spamfree homebrew   Thomas
> Its been getting bad for me too- I've affectively modified my spam filter
> to catch the incoming sobig.f, but as janitor Pat mentioned earlier, its
> the bounces or autoresponders complaining about the emails with your
> address as the faked From address that really suck. They all look
> different, so its hard to positively identify and filter them.

I would encourage *everybody* on this mailing list to go here:
http://housecall.trendmicro.com/housecall/start_corp.asp
and utilize Trend Micro's Housecall (a free virus scanner), or any other
virus scanner that you see.

This will protect you not only from the annoyance of sobig but Blaster as
well et al.

May virus/worm writers and penis pill pushers go to their own special
version of hell where they are bombarded by someone every second.




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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:20:43 +0000
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Organizing All This Stuff

When I first started brewing, all my loose stuff would fit easily in one 
bucket: bottle caps, a capper, a siphon hose, a hydrometer, and a couple of 
air locks.   Now I've got gadgetry coming out the wazoo from a 
counter-pressure bottle filler to a whole collection of thermometers, a 
thief, a scale to weigh hops, keg lube, a sparge arm, various sanitizers, 
cleaning products and chemicals, and so on.   My poor little bucket is 
overflowing.   When I need something, it is so buried that I have to dump it 
all out to dig something out.   It is time to organize everything.

I've thought of maybe buying a big tackle box or maybe a tool box or 
something to organize all the loose stuff, but that will not help me with 
some of the bigger items like a mash stir paddle and a gazillion hoses. 
Whatever I use, I need to be able to carry, push, pull or roll out into the 
kitchen on brew day, but also be something I can easily stuff in a closet 
somewhere when not in use (one day a month the kitchen belongs to me, the 
rest of the time it belongs to SWMBO).

That got me wondering what everyone else does, so I thought I'd pose the 
question: How does everyone organize all their brewing crap?

Dave
Tucson, AZ



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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:34:58 -0700
From: "Don Howard" <donchoward at comcast.net>
Subject: low carb beer

I am a brewing artist, definitely not a brewing scientist, and  I just read
on the ediets web site that A-B makes Michelob Ultra by a "method of cooking
the grain mash three times the normal cycle".  This can't possibly mean that
I  can brew a good tasting lower carb beer simply by mashing three times
longer (maintaining temperature somehow) than usual, can it?  Is there a
more complicated but doable way for a biology/chemistry challenged
homebrewer?  Is there any way to guess at the carb level of homebrewed beer?




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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:50:05 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Spam...

Rama Roberts wrote:

>On a good note, Pat and I have been discussing a fix that will help limit
>future spam. The HBD archives expose email addresses as Mailto links-
>perfect for "scrapers" to harvest them and pass them on to spammers. Our
>plan is to convert those addresses, for example:
>        billgates at microsoft.com
>to
>        billgates AT microsoft DOT com
>
>or some such to prevent automatic scraping.
>Hopefully Pat and I will implement this quick fix in the near future.

May I humbly suggest removing the email address altogether from the
archives? In your example, it wouldn't take much for a spammer to get Bill
Gates' actual email address from most email address obfuscation schemes. 

Regardless of what you do, you should also do it to the copy of the
digest forwarded to rec.crafts.brewing.
- --Michael



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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:18:08 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Sprue

A colleage came to me and asked if I as a brewer could do anything to 
help her alleviate the beer related aspects of his daughter's plight - 
she suffers from celiac sprue (often described as an intollerance to 
wheat gluteins but barley hordeins are equally problematical). I seem to 
remember this subject coming up here before but a quick look at the 
archives wasn't very helpful. Does (or has) anyone here brewed a beer 
(successful or unsuccessful) for people who suffer from this disease? I 
so, can you describe it, give a recipe etc.?

Cheers, A.J.,



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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:17:24 -0400
From: Jay Hellhound <whiplash at juno.com>
Subject: Batch Sparge Calculator?

I wonder if anyone has made a Javascript Batch Sparge Recipe calculator?
I found the Excel ones but I don't have Excel......


Jay
Brewing Rehab Homebrew at The Boilover Brauhaus



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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:46:13 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds-Training Yeast-Alexandre Enkerli

			Dr. Cone Responds-Training Yeast-Alexandre Enkerli

Dr. Cone,
   Like everyone else, I really do appreciate your help and understanding
and I hope my questions won't be too silly for you.
   We're told yeast will adapt to the medium, at least for scale. But does
it also adapt to other characteristics of the medium? If so, would it
be possible to lead a yeast strain to adopt different characteristics
for further batches? If the adaptation is simply based on selective
pressure and random mutations, one would imagine there's little that
can be done.
   Again, thank you for your help.
Alex, in Montreal

Alex,
   I am not sure that I understand your comment 'at least for scale'.
   Yeast do have the ability to adapt, with limitations, to stresses in the
media such as osmotic pressure, alcohol levels, upper temperature range.
This adaptation is usually done by an increase in the production trehalose.
The adaption is usually temporary for a specific stress. Yeast adapt to
nitrogen deficiency by stopping fermentation (stuck fermentation). Yeast
that goes
through several nitrogen deficiency pitchings will end up with its cell wall
surface hydrophobicity altered, adversely effecting the flocculating
properties.
   Sometimes an adaption to a stress can become permanent after many, many
transfers, sometimes hundreds of transfers. These adaptions do not always
remain
stable, they may resort back to the original after several generations.
   It is asking a lot to get a yeast to change its genetic make up in a
single
exposure to a wort, must or mash. It has taken eons of time for that
particular strain to develope its genetic profile. Man can step in and make
a change by breeding through mating and fusion. Random mutation can be
speeded up by exposing the yeast to radiation or certain chemicals then
screen to look for positive improvements.  Genetic engineering is the
straight forward way of tailoring a new yeast for your desired purpose,
however, it is generally not accepted by the public.
   All is not lost.  There are still untold thousands of yeast strains out
in
nature awaiting to be isolated and discovered.  Each with particular
properities that the beer and wine maker are looking for.

Clayton
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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:25:39 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: avoiding spam

Rama says : billgates AT microsoft DOT com

You can probably swipe the code for this from the Mailman
program list server, as it has this option built in.
http://www.glowhost.com/mailman.php

Also, to prevent spam going to the list directly, I highly
recommend Spam Assassin.  I installed it on my mail server
recently and the difference is quite astonishing.  Here
is some more info :

https://secure.quay.net/community/viewtopic.php?t=247

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 
"Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is"
    - Denny Conn


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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:51:21 -0700
From: "Richard Schmittdiel" <schmitrw at earthlink.net>
Subject: Deschutes Black Butte Porter Recipe

A buddy brought a couple of bottles of Deschutes Black Butte Porter over the
other night.  We both thought it was really nice.  I'd like to try brewing a
knock-off of that.  Has anyone got either a whole grain recipe, or pertinent
experience/knowledge that they would be willing to share?

Rich Schmittdiel
Possum Holler Brewery
in Southern California



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---