HOMEBREW Digest #4333 Wed 27 August 2003

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  Compiling and publishing Dr. Cone's Responses (Pat Babcock)
  Hop Back / Percolator ("Rudolf Krondorfer")
  Rubbermaid Mash Tun questions ("Davison, Patrick")
  Re: Electrical Element Wattage Density (Dion Hollenbeck)
  1st all grain brew & resultant questions (Chet Nunan)
  Re;  K metabisulfite ("William Frazier")
  Thanks to all for Denver inputs! (Alex Hazlett)
  Split Rock 2003 HB Competition ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Packing Dried Hops (Demonick)
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements - Al Korzonas ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Freezing dried yeast-Brian Lundeen ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Cell density of Brett? Lambic beer? - Eric Dahlberg ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone, 2003 - Lager Pitching Temperature - David Lamotte ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Cell Counts ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Killer Strains ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds - Autolysis ("Rob Moline")
  Dr Cone Responds - freezing yeast ("Rob Moline")
  Pierre Rajotte's yeast book (Tony Barnsley)
  Plastic lids for bottles ("")
  breweries using just one yeast (Rama Roberts)
  re: you've got mail ("Chad Gould")
  Organizing All This Stuff ("Dave Larsen")
  low carb beer ("Don Howard")
  Spam... (Michael)
  Sprue (AJ)
  Batch Sparge Calculator? (Jay Hellhound)
  Dr. Cone Responds-Training Yeast-Alexandre Enkerli ("Rob Moline")
  avoiding spam (Alan McKay)
  Deschutes Black Butte Porter Recipe ("Richard Schmittdiel")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The HBD Logo Store is now open! * * http://www.hbd.org/store.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * IN PROGRESS! * * * * * * * * * Dr. Clayton Cone Fortnight of Yeast * * 8/11/03 - 8/22/03 Yeast Questions Answered * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:11:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Compiling and publishing Dr. Cone's Responses Greeting, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Folks: restraint, please. You must follow the general rules for material on the HBD before doing such as has been proposed here, even if said compilation is for free distribution: ask permission of the HBD and of the individuals involved in this exchange. I caution those who are planning to compile the Dr. Cone exchange to garner the necessary permission explicitly, especially the latter permission - that of the posters. Thanks. - -- - God bless America! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock [18, 92.1] Rennerian "I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle" - Arlo Guthrie Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:04:01 +0200 From: "Rudolf Krondorfer" <rudolf.krondorfer at sensonor.no> Subject: Hop Back / Percolator Hello. After struggling with little aroma in the beer following a change from immersion chiller to counterflow-chiller, I have decided to add a Hop Back to my brewing equipment. With this addition comes to questions: 1. Is a percolator and a Hop-back the same thing? 2. Where can one buy this? Does anybody have experience with any commercially available Hop Backs? I mostly brew about 13gal for each batch (max 26gal), so the Hop Back has to be dimensioned thereafter. Take care all of you. Kind regards, Rudolf Krondorfer Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:36:49 -0400 From: "Davison, Patrick" <Davison at nsf.org> Subject: Rubbermaid Mash Tun questions As part of a raffle associated with a golf outing, I received a Rubbermaid five gallon beverage cooler. Lacking five gallons of non-carbonated beverages to keep cool, I thought I would convert it to a mash tun and further my all-grain capabilities (I have a Zap-ap ala Papazian, but figure it's a good time to step up the equipment). I'm currently an occasional homebrewer (~6 batches/year, mostly extracts with specialty grains, no kegging system). I've lurked around in the HBD archives and noticed a ton of options out there. Can anybody offer first-hand experience on the Phils Phalse Bottom, Kewler, or other configurations, as well as places to purchase such items? Off-line responses are welcome. Thanks everybody, Pat Davison Fashionable Ferndale, MI [36.5, 72.1] AR Return to table of contents
Date: 26 Aug 2003 05:49:54 -0700 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com> Subject: Re: Electrical Element Wattage Density >> Dan Listermann writes: DL> For years I have used common hot water elements to boil my brews. DL> I run them at 240V. I have used a 5500W element and, if memory DL> serves, it produced over 100 watts per square inch. I never DL> noticed scorching While there may not be any scorching, one of the purposes of a boil is to denature the enzymes, which in a mash, I warned against. It would be *really* good to be proven wrong about heat density, but I surely do not want to be the one to go over beyond the envelope. dion Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:02:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com> Subject: 1st all grain brew & resultant questions Hello all; I recently started brewing again after a long layoff. Previously I just did extract brews, but I jumped into all grain for my return. My system is a 5 gal round rubbermaid cooler for a mash tun, and a 5 gal igloo ss liner round cooler with a bru-heat unit for the boil. During mash in, my mash temp dropped to 145 (strike water was 185)approx 3/4 of the way in, so I heated some of the mash on a hot plate and added back several times until the temp hit 155. I was doing an overnite mash, and the next morning the temp was at 142...despite having wrapped the cooler in an insulated pad & a "space blanket", and having used an expanding foam to fill the cooler lid. Thanks to this forum, I have found several helpful ideas such as preheating the mash tun (duh, why didn't I think of that?) and not stirring as much. While these tricks should help my mash temp at mash in, the double digit temp drop overnite seemed excessive. Any thoughts? Am I right in assuming that despite where my mash temp starts, by dropping into the 140 - 150 range overnite, I'll get the higher fermentables and drier beer? My OG on this batch was approx. 1.079, FG approx. 1.009. Grain bill was 12# 2 row, 1#crystal 20, 1/2# carapils, 1/2# biscuit. Next question...I know this is a strong beer, but I get a horrible hangover from it! A 1/2 gal growler over an evening is a guaranteed head pounder. My fermentation temp was 72 ambient (2 - 4 degrees higher due to the ferm process?), and it spent 2 weeks in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, and one week in a keg (force carbonated). Was the ferm temp too high? It was the upper limit for the White Labs Cal ale yeast I used. Will this headache causing tendency dissipate with further aging? If so, how much additional aging? Lastly, I use well water, softened. I don't have a water analysis to refer to. I added 1 tsp. gypsum to the boil. Should this have gone into the strike water for the mash? Despite the low mash temp and err...enthusiastic (excessive?)hopping, the smell and initial taste are rather sweet/fruity. While I think it's probably helped this batch, I'm curious if this is the result of the soft water, or the higher ferm temps? Thanks for any thoughts...hope I didn't carry on too long... Chet Nunan Churubusco IN Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:04:39 -0500 From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re; K metabisulfite Larry Suarez wants to know how to adjust sulfites in wine. Larry - You need to be able to measure the free SO2 in your wine. One easy way is to use Titrets which contain a reagent (based on the Ripper test) that reacts with free SO2. Then, depending on your test result you can add K metabilulfite to increase SO2 if needed. The test is rapid and easy to do. These Titret Kits should be available at Homebrew/Winemaking shops. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Hazlett <alexdhaze at yahoo.com> Subject: Thanks to all for Denver inputs! With the help of several HBDers, my wife and I managed to find some very good beer in and around Denver. We got to Tommyknockers in Idaho Springs (a tasty IPA), BJs (VERY good for beer and for food, prices were reasonable too) and the Walnut Brewery (a fabulous root beer, you could smell it across the table) in Boulder, and the Falling Rock Taphouse (not so many beers available as on the wallls, and an abysmal lack of porter) Wynkoop's (VERY good beer, VERY good food, my number one pick--closely ahead of BJs) and the Rock Bottom (food good, beer good, I'd go again for sure) in Denver downtown. We also visited Liquor Mart in Boulder and Applejack Liquor in Denver-- you've got to love supermarket-sized liquor stores (though they still pale before the "Beer-for-Less" warehouse of alcohol in Butler,PA...). I also drank a fair amount of Odell's Cutthroat Porter, that's a tasty beer. Oh, and we saw the family and friends too. Thanks again for all the info, I only wish I could have gotten to the 'Foam on the Range' club's annual picnic (had to attend a big family function-- poor planning on their <the family> part...) Alex Hazlett Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:10:55 -0400 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: Split Rock 2003 HB Competition I am please to announce that there will be homebrew competition on November 22nd, 9am promptly, at the Split Rock Resort in the Poconos of Pennsylvania in conjunction with their annual Micro Brew Festival. Contrary to the web information, judging will only be on Saturday. Entry fees, $5, will go to the Make-A-Wish Foundation. This is a sanctioned competition and will use the standard BJCP/AHA style guidelines judging all beer, mead and cider styles. Entries should be shipped to The Resort at Split Rock, One Lake Drive, Lake Harmony, PA 18624, Attention: Shelly Kalins Lutz, for receipt from November 12 to November 19. Two (2) brown or green bottles with no markings are required; please no glue or tape on the bottles -- just secure bottle identification with rubber bands. Any standard 8.5x11 entry forms identifying the brewer and the appropriate entry category/subcategory are acceptable. Any standard homebrew competition entry and bottle identification forms are acceptable. Judges and Stewards will be needed and they should contact me or Shelly Kalins Lutz [srinfo at splitrockresort.com] to secure a position. Judges and Stewards may hand carry their entries if they pre-register with payment and show up at least 1/2 hour early. Checks should be made out to The Resort At Split Rock. Judges will receive an entry to the beer festival or entry to the beer dinner for their efforts and need to indicate which they wish when they commit to participate. The BOS winner will receive a complementary weekend for two at next year's Split Rock Beer Fest. But just entering makes you a winner for helping a good cause. More information will be available at the Split Rock web site (http://www.splitrockresort.com/gba_homebrew.html). David Houseman Competition Organizer david.houseman at verizon.net Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:22:34 -0700 From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> Subject: Re: Packing Dried Hops I've packed homegrown hops in corny kegs. Make sure that the kegs seal well. Use plenty of keg lube if you need. Purge well with CO2. The hops will last a very long time. Every time you open the keg, repurge. I think that home drying results in a much drier product than the commercial product. Not sure why, and I didn't worry too much about it. Domenick Venezia Venezia & Company, LLC Maker of PrimeTab (206) 782-1152 phone (206) 782-6766 fax Seattle, WA demonick at zgi dot com http://www.primetab.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:28 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements - Al Korzonas Dr. Cone, 2003 - oxygen requirements - Al Korzonas Dr. Cone, Thank you for taking the time to answer all our questions. I'm following up not on my own questions, but on one from another HBD member. In a response about oxygen requirements, you said >I do not know how you will be able to control the rate of sterol production >or the total amount. Yeast can produce the precursor squalene with no >oxygen, then with very little oxygen, 10 - 15 ppm, it can move squalene up >to sterol. In Homebrew Digest #1446, the immortal Dr. Fix reported results from some tests he performed using oxygen and verified that the dissolved oxygen levels (unless held artificially high with constant oxygenation) are strongly dependent on the specific gravity of the wort and the levels are quite a bit lower than the ones you have said various yeasts require for a healthy ferment: SG 54.4F (12.5C) 59F (15C) 68F (20C) 1.030 (7.5P) 8.1ppm 7.5ppm 6.5ppm 1.040 (10P) 7.7ppm 7.1ppm 6.2ppm 1.060 (15P) 6.9ppm 6.3ppm 5.6ppm 1.080 (20P) 5.7ppm 5.5ppm 5.0ppm Are you suggesting that we need to artificially keep our oxygen levels above the normal solubility for proper yeast growth, or is there such a big gap between theory and practice? In another answer you said that some wineries will add oxygen near the end of fermentation to restart a stuck ferment when there was insufficient oxygen at the beginning of the ferment. Shouldn't that include a caveat that adding oxygen in the middle or end of a ferment is at the expense of shelf life and will result in an increased amount of aldehydes in the finished beer/wine. Also, although not unwelcome in an ale, increased oxygen means increased oxidation of alpha-acetolactic acid to diacetyl. I have had some bottles of Samuel Smith's beers that had excessive diacetyl, even for an ale. Samuel Smith's uses pumps to get their highly flocculent yeast back into suspension and although their fermentation room relatively quickly fills up with CO2, anytime there are humans in there, they run fans to evacuate the CO2 and replace it with air, so some oxidation is inevitable (excessive, I suggest, on some batches). Thank you again. Al Korzonas Al, Good to hear from you again. xygen is a difficult topic to address. It is easy to talk about it academically but how do you talk about it practically to the home brewer. How do you know precisely how many ppm of O2 that you need and how does the home beer maker deliver the exact ppm O2 required? You have pointed out one of the variables: O2 saturation is dependent on wort gravity and temperature. The irony is that the higher the gravity the lower the O2 solubility and saturation, yet the yeast requirement is usually higher. Further aeration with air, after the yeast has been added, may be required to achieve the desired amount of O2 needed. The solubility of pure O2 in wort is greater than the O2 from air, so the desired requirement via pure O2 can be achieved with the initial addition. The yeast requirement varies with the strain. In the wine industry some strains require twice as much O2 to maintain a constant CO2 output as other strains. The same probably holds true with beer and distillery yeast. The yeast requirement for a particular inoculum is dependent on the quality of the yeast at the time of pitching. A yeast starved for O2 from the previous fermentation will require more O2 than one having received an adequate amount. Most commercially produced Active Dry Beer yeast actually require no O2 addition for a successful average gravity wort fermentation. There is enough lipids built into the cell at the yeast factory. It will need O2 addition on the next re-pitching. Re-pitching yeast held under stressful conditions have a delayed response to O2 uptake. Under pitching requires more O2 than over pitching. Some beer makers do not have adequate refrigeration so they restrict the O2 addition in order to control yeast growth and thus fermentation temperature. O2 delivery system and contact time plays a crucial role in O2 solubility: porous stone vs. pin hole in pipes, pure O2 vs. air, bubble coalescence vs. bubble integrity, short vs. tall fermenter. The list goes on. I am not sure how defined the over oxidation line is. If the yeast actually requires 6 ppm O2 and you add 7 ppm O2, do you automatically begin to produce unfavorable by-products? Your caveats regarding late addition of O2 is well taken. Late addition of O2 should be done only as a desperate move to unstick a fermentation. This has become routine first step taken in the wine industry to speed up a sluggish fermentation or unstick a stuck fermentation. Of course the wine industry may not be as sensitive to some of the fermentation by-products as the brewing industry. Yeast are tremendous O2 scavengers. Live yeast addition to the beer at the time of bottling offer protection from oxygen. I am not sure if it is at the cost of by-product problems. Two or more additions of O2 occurs routinely at breweries that require two or more batches of wort to fill a fermenter. Sometimes highly O2 saturated water is added to the fermenting mash. OG corrected for the added water. It would have been wiser of me to have given a range of 0 to 15+ ppm O2. Thank you again for your comments. Dialogue is a good thing. After all these years, I am still learning. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:30 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Freezing dried yeast-Brian Lundeen Dr. Cone Responds - Freezing dried yeast-Brian Lundeen First of all, my thanks to you for taking part in this forum. Awhile back, your always helpful Sigrid Gertsen-Briand mentioned to me that preliminary trials at Lallemand had suggested that freezing dried yeast was not good for the yeast in some way. Anecdotally, some homebrewers and winemakers have mentioned that they have no problems using dry yeast that has been stored in the freezer. Could you please expand on this and let me know if any additional work has been done on this topic? Thanks Brian Brian, The original research on Active Dry Yeast shelf life stability was done over 60 years ago. The interest at that time was stability at room temperature (20C) and at refrigerated temperature (4 C). The dry yeast was not designed with freeze storage in mind. No real studies were made on storage in a freezer. We have found out recently that many people have been storing our Active Dry Yeast in freezers for years with no apparent adverse effect. A preliminary freeze storage trial with one of our strains indicated some damage was done. This may indicate that the damage might be strain related. It is too early to draw any conclusion. We will continue to investigate. Thanks for your interest. We will keep you posted. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:29 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Cell density of Brett? Lambic beer? - Eric Dahlberg Dr. Cone Responds - Cell density of Brett? Lambic beer? - Eric Dahlberg Dr. Cone asked: I am curious why are you interested in a procedure for rapidly increasing the cell density of Brett? Lambic beer? That is exactly why. I can't get enough lambic beer. Which leads to another question or two, if there is space/time to answer. An 11 month old lambic with the waxy pellicle at the top behaves very differently at only slightly (in my mind) different temperatures. Between 70 - 74F there appears to be little, if any activity in the carboy. But if the temp in my closet (where it's stored) gets above 75, a steady stream of extremely tiny bubbles (assumed to be CO2) are seen. I originally thought that it was simply CO2 coming out of solution, but the thickness of the waxy layer at the top seems to shrink and grow (slightly) with the temp too. It seems odd that there would be such an on/off temperature range for the yeast and bacteria to be active at - any ideas? I never allow the temp in my house above 80F, so I don't know if the activity continues to accelerate past that point. Also, I know the phenomenon we call beer skunking is a result of light and hop oils reacting, but I am wondering if my nightly ritual of shining a flashlight into the carboy may be having any negative effect on my yeast? Photosensitive yeast? I have many questions, but there are others who deserve some bandwidth, so I'll stop here. Thank you again, Eric Dahlberg Eric, I really have only a smattering of experience with Lambic beer. Dr. Jean-Xavier Guinard's book Classic Beer #3 Style Series LAMBIC ISBN: 0-937381-22-5, should give you all the information that you need. The literature mentions light struck and sun struck in the same sentence as if they were the same. The sun rays have the light spectrum that has the energy to cause the problem with the hops. I have seen many good beers made in clear glasscarboys located in a kitchen, cellar and closet with electric lights with no apparent problem with light struck/sun struck. So a flash light should not be of any consequence. I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:30 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone, 2003 - Lager Pitching Temperature - David Lamotte Dr. Cone, 2003 - Lager Pitching Temperature - David Lamotte Dr. Cone, I would like to add my thanks to you for your generous contributions, and to the previous posters for their thoughtful questions. From previous discussions on the HBD and a number of brewing texts, there appears to be two schools of thought regarding lager yeast pitching temperatures. One suggests that you pitch a lot of yeast at or below the fermentation temp (8-12C) in order to minimise that amount of esters etc produced. The other suggests that you pitch the normal amount at ambient room temperature and begin cooling down to your fermentation temperature once the first visible signs of fermentation begin. My concern with the second method is that the fermentation will proceed at too high a rate unless you have a large 'cooling power' available. Do you have any information on the effect that pitching temperature has on lager fermentations. Thanks again, David Lamotte David, Both methods are satisfactory for lager production. Pitching at a warmer temperature will begin the production of more yeast. While the yeast is growing there will be less ester production because the acyl CoA needed for ester production is tied up with yeast production. You may have a slight problem of cooling if you do not have adequate refrigeration. Pitching at a cooler temperature with at a higher pitching rate will result in less yeast production and more ester production. It would be difficult to tell which would end up with the most esters. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:29 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Cell Counts Dr. Cone Responds - Cell Counts Dr. Cone, As others have mentioned, thank you very much for the opportunity... My question is on yeast cell counts within a starter. Assuming one began with a 1L of 1.040 starter wort, and 50 ml of yeast containing 15 billion cells that has an Apparent Attenuation of 75%: 1) What would the cell count be in the starter if allowed to go to completion? How about with a 2L starter of the same gravity? 2) What would the cell count be in the starter if continuously stirred and allowed to go to completion? How about with a 2L starter of the same gravity? Thanks once again. Cheers, Mike Dixon Mike, This is not an easy question to answer. There are too many variables. 1. 50 ml. of yeast containing 15 billion yeast cells = 300,000,000 yeast cells per ml. That is a remarkable amount of yeast per ml. to start with. I assume that this initial quantity of yeast came from a yeast cake that you dissolved into 50 ml. When you add this to 1 liter you will then have 15 million yeast cells per ml. When you add it to 2 liters you will have 7.5 million yeast cells per ml. . If there is adequate nutrients in the wort there should be 100 - 150 million yeast cells per milliter when the yeast reaches the stationary phase. This should hold true for both the 1 liter and 2 liter starter culture. With low levels of nitrogen, minerals and vitamins, this count be reduced by 50%. Yeast strains can make a difference in the growth rate and final numbers at the stationary phase. 2. Aeration and stirring can increase the cell count by 50 to 100%. I wish that I could be more precise. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:31 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Killer Strains Dr. Cone Responds - Killer Strains Dr. Cone-- Are there "killer strains" of beer yeast as there are in wine yeasts? Al. Al, Yes. There are killer strains in every genus and specie of yeast. Yeast are divided into three categories regarding the killer factor: 1. Killer positive--this strain produces a killer factor and cannot be effected by another yeast that produces a killer factor. 2. Killer sensitive--this strain does not produce a killer factor and is effected by a strain that does. 3. Neutral-- this strain do not produce a killer factor nor are they effected by a yeast with a killer factor It is important to know that a killer factor from one specie cannot kill a yeast from another specie. All three categories are in common use in the wine industry with out any problems with cross contamination when good sanitary practices and proper inoculating volumes are used. Extended re-pitching where killer yeast plus neutral and sensitive yeast in the same plant are used would not be advisable. Killer yeast may be used more often that suspected, since beer yeast strains are not always screened for the killer factor. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:31 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds - Autolysis Dr. Cone Responds - Autolysis Dr. Cone-- The first books I read on homebrewing all talked about the dangers of autolysis. I have only experienced it in several meads that I made with wine yeast and that was after two or three years in the *primary* fermenter on the entire yeast cake. Were these early homebrewing books overemphasizing the likelihood of off aromas (rubbery, etc.) and flavours from autolysis, or was it a bigger problem with yeasts that were of questionable viability and probably stored, unrefridgerated, for months? Thanks. Al. Al, Autolysis is always something that you have to consider if you leave mead on the yeast after all of the sugar has been converted to alcohol. Many of the yeast have already died by the end of the fermentation and the remainder will die soon, rubbery. Within a few weeks most of the yeast will died and begin to autolyze. The right amount of autolysis produces a nice nutty character to the mead. You need to get the right balance of autolysis. If your mead fermentation takes many months for completion you will run into the possibility of producing off flavors and aromas. Extended fermentation time indicates unhealthy yeast that can produce skunky off flavors and aromas. Unhealthy yeast comes from lack of nutrients and oxygen earlier in the fermentation. Honey contains very little nutrients for yeast growth. You will need to supplement with a well balanced nutrient such as Fermaid K. Honey also contains very little if any buffering material. The pH will drop dramatically during the first few hours of fermentation, sometimes to as low as 2.7 -2.9. This will seriously stress the yeast, producing a very unhealthy yeast cell resulting in a long drawn out fermentation. This problem can be minimized by adding a small amount of potassium carbonate at the beginning of the fermentation. You should strive for the fermentation to be completed in one to two weeks. If you want a light, fruity mead, you will need to settle, rack and filter ASAP. If you want to age the mead on the lees or yeast then you should allow to settle lightly to get rid of some of the yeast. Rack while still cloudy to have some yeast left. This yeast will autolyse. Stir weekly until you have achieved the amount of nutty toasty character that you desire. This can range from a couple of weeks to several months. Stirring speeds up the release of the autolyzed amino acids from the yeast cell. Champagne houses leave the champagne on the yeast for three or more years to get the full yeasty, nutty, toasty effect. They cannot stir to speed up the reaction. Clayton Cone - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:40:31 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr Cone Responds - freezing yeast Dr Cone Responds - freezing yeast Hi Dr Cone, Some advise on freezing yeast please. at the moment I store yeast on slants and re-propagate about every four to six months. I believe you can store frozen for twelve months using glycerine and some other ingredients. Can I do this on slants In a home freezer. Please advise on temps and techniques. Neville Neville, Freezing yeast is very tricky. At the temperature normally associated with a household freezer, ice crystals begin to form within the cell and often times grow large enough to rupture the cell, even in the presence of glycerol. To prevent the crystal formation we begin by harvesting the yeast in the exponential phase and mix 50:50 with glycerol and divided into very small vials. This is instantly frozen and stored at -80C. Our technique gives us assurance that a large % of the population will survive the frozen state many years and revive in a healthy condition. Any technique short of this offers no guarantee. A 50:50 mixture of yeast (about 12-18 hours into a fermentation) and glycerol, divided into very small aliquots, and quick frozen and stored in a household freezer might allow a small % of the yeast cells to survive over a year or two. It only take a few surviving viable yeast cells to start up a new starter culture. Your present technique of re propagating and preparing new slants is the safest. If you seal the tubes airtight with wax and store as close to 35F as possible, you should be able to reslant on a less frequent bases, perhaps a year. If you try the 50:50 yeast/glycerol in your freezer, let me know the results. Use the methylene blue technique to determine viability. Clayton - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:46:43 +0100 From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk> Subject: Pierre Rajotte's yeast book Hi fellow fermentation scientists, Following a recent discussion here in the UK, a few people would like to get hold of a copy of 'An Introduction to Yeast Culturing For Homebrewers' by Pierre Rajotte. I have tried one email for him but received No reply, does anyone else know where I can buy say 10 copies of said book. Regards The Scurrilous Aleman Email Disclaimer is: http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/democracy/corpdocs/EmailDisclaimer.htm This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:58:33 -0500 From: "" <courtney03 at iquest.net> Subject: Plastic lids for bottles I remember while being a steward at a NW Florida AHA Homebrew Competition (a while ago - mid 1990s) that they had these plastic lids for the bottles that were used after pouring the first round for the judges. As I remember, they were like the ones used for the old 16 oz Pepsi/Coke returnable bottles, but not as sturdy - these were more disposable, covering the bottle opening with a pretty snug fit, and had a small notch/tab for easy opening (not the PET screw-on type). They most likely wouldn't be able to keep carbonation for long (who in their right mind would have a partial bottle of homebrew for longer than 5 minutes outside of a homebrew competition, anyway??). But these would be very handy for keeping empty, cleaned and sanitized bottles for your next brewing session. I have a kegging system, but like to bottle on occasion for friends/travel/etc. Has anyone else seen these around lately, and/or where can I get some? Thanks, Scott Courtney Indy, IN Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:28:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Rama Roberts <rama at sun.com> Subject: breweries using just one yeast Dr Cone's response about the top 5 variables in brewing a good beer listed "yeast strain" as 2nd only to "wort preparation and composition". This reminded me of something I was shocked to learn was happening in a couple of the larger breweries in my area, and wondered if it was a common practice in breweries: using a single yeast strain for all of the beers produced there, presumably for ease of preparation and storage. At least one of these breweries uses this same general purpose ale yeast to produce their wheat beer too (blech!) It seems to work for them, as these breweries are doing financially well and their beers are well regarded by most- but I can't help but feel these guys are either sell-outs and/or rookies, regardless of how well they're doing (and what the typical American palate craves). I'd hate to think there are good brewers/breweries out there going under by producing good and accurate beer styles using the appropriate yeast strains, instead of the bland and largely similar beers that many have come to expect? - --rama SF bay area Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:54:10 -0400 From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: re: you've got mail > > I got about 5 from the HBD mail responder. As if the spam problem wasn't > > enough, this starts to make email unusable as a communication media. > > All the best and a spamfree homebrew Thomas > Its been getting bad for me too- I've affectively modified my spam filter > to catch the incoming sobig.f, but as janitor Pat mentioned earlier, its > the bounces or autoresponders complaining about the emails with your > address as the faked From address that really suck. They all look > different, so its hard to positively identify and filter them. I would encourage *everybody* on this mailing list to go here: http://housecall.trendmicro.com/housecall/start_corp.asp and utilize Trend Micro's Housecall (a free virus scanner), or any other virus scanner that you see. This will protect you not only from the annoyance of sobig but Blaster as well et al. May virus/worm writers and penis pill pushers go to their own special version of hell where they are bombarded by someone every second. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:20:43 +0000 From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com> Subject: Organizing All This Stuff When I first started brewing, all my loose stuff would fit easily in one bucket: bottle caps, a capper, a siphon hose, a hydrometer, and a couple of air locks. Now I've got gadgetry coming out the wazoo from a counter-pressure bottle filler to a whole collection of thermometers, a thief, a scale to weigh hops, keg lube, a sparge arm, various sanitizers, cleaning products and chemicals, and so on. My poor little bucket is overflowing. When I need something, it is so buried that I have to dump it all out to dig something out. It is time to organize everything. I've thought of maybe buying a big tackle box or maybe a tool box or something to organize all the loose stuff, but that will not help me with some of the bigger items like a mash stir paddle and a gazillion hoses. Whatever I use, I need to be able to carry, push, pull or roll out into the kitchen on brew day, but also be something I can easily stuff in a closet somewhere when not in use (one day a month the kitchen belongs to me, the rest of the time it belongs to SWMBO). That got me wondering what everyone else does, so I thought I'd pose the question: How does everyone organize all their brewing crap? Dave Tucson, AZ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:34:58 -0700 From: "Don Howard" <donchoward at comcast.net> Subject: low carb beer I am a brewing artist, definitely not a brewing scientist, and I just read on the ediets web site that A-B makes Michelob Ultra by a "method of cooking the grain mash three times the normal cycle". This can't possibly mean that I can brew a good tasting lower carb beer simply by mashing three times longer (maintaining temperature somehow) than usual, can it? Is there a more complicated but doable way for a biology/chemistry challenged homebrewer? Is there any way to guess at the carb level of homebrewed beer? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:50:05 -0500 From: Michael <grice at binc.net> Subject: Spam... Rama Roberts wrote: >On a good note, Pat and I have been discussing a fix that will help limit >future spam. The HBD archives expose email addresses as Mailto links- >perfect for "scrapers" to harvest them and pass them on to spammers. Our >plan is to convert those addresses, for example: > billgates at microsoft.com >to > billgates AT microsoft DOT com > >or some such to prevent automatic scraping. >Hopefully Pat and I will implement this quick fix in the near future. May I humbly suggest removing the email address altogether from the archives? In your example, it wouldn't take much for a spammer to get Bill Gates' actual email address from most email address obfuscation schemes. Regardless of what you do, you should also do it to the copy of the digest forwarded to rec.crafts.brewing. - --Michael Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:18:08 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Sprue A colleage came to me and asked if I as a brewer could do anything to help her alleviate the beer related aspects of his daughter's plight - she suffers from celiac sprue (often described as an intollerance to wheat gluteins but barley hordeins are equally problematical). I seem to remember this subject coming up here before but a quick look at the archives wasn't very helpful. Does (or has) anyone here brewed a beer (successful or unsuccessful) for people who suffer from this disease? I so, can you describe it, give a recipe etc.? Cheers, A.J., Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:17:24 -0400 From: Jay Hellhound <whiplash at juno.com> Subject: Batch Sparge Calculator? I wonder if anyone has made a Javascript Batch Sparge Recipe calculator? I found the Excel ones but I don't have Excel...... Jay Brewing Rehab Homebrew at The Boilover Brauhaus Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:46:13 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com> Subject: Dr. Cone Responds-Training Yeast-Alexandre Enkerli Dr. Cone Responds-Training Yeast-Alexandre Enkerli Dr. Cone, Like everyone else, I really do appreciate your help and understanding and I hope my questions won't be too silly for you. We're told yeast will adapt to the medium, at least for scale. But does it also adapt to other characteristics of the medium? If so, would it be possible to lead a yeast strain to adopt different characteristics for further batches? If the adaptation is simply based on selective pressure and random mutations, one would imagine there's little that can be done. Again, thank you for your help. Alex, in Montreal Alex, I am not sure that I understand your comment 'at least for scale'. Yeast do have the ability to adapt, with limitations, to stresses in the media such as osmotic pressure, alcohol levels, upper temperature range. This adaptation is usually done by an increase in the production trehalose. The adaption is usually temporary for a specific stress. Yeast adapt to nitrogen deficiency by stopping fermentation (stuck fermentation). Yeast that goes through several nitrogen deficiency pitchings will end up with its cell wall surface hydrophobicity altered, adversely effecting the flocculating properties. Sometimes an adaption to a stress can become permanent after many, many transfers, sometimes hundreds of transfers. These adaptions do not always remain stable, they may resort back to the original after several generations. It is asking a lot to get a yeast to change its genetic make up in a single exposure to a wort, must or mash. It has taken eons of time for that particular strain to develope its genetic profile. Man can step in and make a change by breeding through mating and fusion. Random mutation can be speeded up by exposing the yeast to radiation or certain chemicals then screen to look for positive improvements. Genetic engineering is the straight forward way of tailoring a new yeast for your desired purpose, however, it is generally not accepted by the public. All is not lost. There are still untold thousands of yeast strains out in nature awaiting to be isolated and discovered. Each with particular properities that the beer and wine maker are looking for. Clayton - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:25:39 -0400 From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net> Subject: avoiding spam Rama says : billgates AT microsoft DOT com You can probably swipe the code for this from the Mailman program list server, as it has this option built in. http://www.glowhost.com/mailman.php Also, to prevent spam going to the list directly, I highly recommend Spam Assassin. I installed it on my mail server recently and the difference is quite astonishing. Here is some more info : https://secure.quay.net/community/viewtopic.php?t=247 - -- http://www.bodensatz.com/ The Beer Site "Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is" - Denny Conn Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:51:21 -0700 From: "Richard Schmittdiel" <schmitrw at earthlink.net> Subject: Deschutes Black Butte Porter Recipe A buddy brought a couple of bottles of Deschutes Black Butte Porter over the other night. We both thought it was really nice. I'd like to try brewing a knock-off of that. Has anyone got either a whole grain recipe, or pertinent experience/knowledge that they would be willing to share? Rich Schmittdiel Possum Holler Brewery in Southern California Return to table of contents
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