---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Bubbles, Tiny (and big) Bubbles ("Fredrik")
  Re: Organizing All This Stuff ("Mike Sharp")
  build your own hop back (Alan McKay)
  RE: Hop Back / Percolator (Bill Tobler)
  Low Carb Beer ("Dan Listermann")
  Celiac Sprue ("Dan Listermann")
  Organize brewing gagets.. ("Mike Eyre")
  RE: Hop Back / Percolator (Kevin McDonough)
  Sulfite in wine, O2 vs O,nitrogen sensors, CO2 danger in manufacturing and breweries ("Dave Burley")
  Celiac Sprue (Steve Tighe)
  re: you've got mail (Scott Alfter)
  Re: 1st all grain brew & resultant questions (Jeff Renner)
  Brewing Gear and Convoluted Copper Tubing ("Chip Stewart")
  organizing brewing crap ("Jay Spies")
  Party ball (tidmarsh)
  Mash temp and yeast for a Foghorn Clone ("Charley Burns")
  plastic bottle caps. ("John Sarette")
  New Freezer - Operation Question ("Steven P. Bellner")
  Dr. Cone Responds-Mike Zapolski-Part 1-Questions ("Rob Moline")
  Dr. Cone Responds-Mike Zapolski-Part 2-Answers ("Rob Moline")
  Single yeast establishments ("Chad Stevens")
  Dr. Cone's Final Comment-Gump Reports ("Rob Moline")
  Yeast Adaptation (Newbie Question) (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Electric Kettle Control (yax)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
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*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *       IN  PROGRESS!       * * * * * * * *
*          Dr. Clayton Cone Fortnight of Yeast          *
*      8/11/03 - 8/22/03 Yeast Questions Answered       *
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:09:55 +0200
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bubbles, Tiny (and big) Bubbles

- ------------------------------

> /Fredrik is counting CO2 bubbles in the airlock. I did this at the
beginning
> of my brewing career also, so I understand.
>
> One thing you must remember is that CO2 is soluble in water/beer and this
will
> skew your results, as the fermentation can proceed for a while before any
> bubbles come out.  Temperature is a problem to be accounted for, as
solubility
> of CO2 is temperature dependent.
>
> But the largest variable and least accountable for variable is the fact
the
> CO2 in a water system is slow to come to equilibrium ( and thank
goodness!)
> were it not, we would get a shower of beer every time we opened a bottle.
>
> You could try agitation during fermentation or other mechanical means to
bring
> the CO2 to equilibrium, but this has apparently ( IOW , jury is still out
in
> my book)  been shown to have adverse effects on beer quality.
>
> Point is, bubble counting is not a good measure of fermentation rate until
the
> fermeting fluid is saturated and not even then due to the non-equilibrium
> release of CO2.
>

I agree with Daves critics on all points.

Maybe I should wait defending the bubble method until I have acquired some
more statistics as I would have some more definite arguments, but I just
want to defend the poor bubbles(!!) here because though it's not without
complications, it is certainly not useless, it can in fact be quite useful
IMO :)

There is a problem if someone puts equality between fermentation rate and
bubbling rate, this would be a mistake I agree. Since the relation is not as
simple as a linear correction I agree it may be good to point this out if
anyone else wants to interpret bubbles. The relation is dynamical and not
static, thus you could say it's "complicated" and you probably need a little
more than a simple pocket calculator to correct for it. I will use some
differential equations to relate them.

I do belive that the relation between the fermentation rate and the bubbling
rate is fairly predictable and managable at least to the rough extent
required for me. I think the complications are a bigger problem if they are
ignored. I agree though that the trickiest part is probably the activity of
nucleation sites for bubbles. I intend to account for ambient temperature
and pressure, and there are also alot of wort and fermentor specific
paramters, one would be the nucleation activity, probably beeing promoted by
for example trub. This do gets complex with many variables and parameters. I
hope to extend the logger with a temp and pressure channel later on to
improve this. There may also be a variation of bubble size, but I belive
neither this fatal, though a complication. But time will show.

On short timescale bubbling is random, so on the bubble to bubble timescale
it's nothing but meaningless noise, but on a slightly larger timescale the
variations get more significant. At least if I speak for myself, I think
with the correct interpretations the bubble counter gives me data with an
accuracy sufficent for my hobby based "brewing research". It can never
compete with an expensive fermentation lab and it was never the idea and the
comparasion is not really fair. The idea for me was a quick/dirty/cheap
means to track my fermentation in an automated manner and to a better extent
that just make hydrometer readings. And so far it seems to do the job.
Hydrometer readings are excellent as such, the problem as it seems to me is
that it normally gives you just two datapoints, FG and OG. I don't anyone
would make thousands of manual gravity readings on a batch.

This bubble counter idea seemed like a good idea to me. Not perfect, but the
best I could think of at the moment and so far I am not dissapointed. The
accurate interpretation requires input of ambient pressure and temperature.

Perhaps there is a more clever way to track fermentation that doesn't mean
byuing expensive lab stuff, but I didn't think of anything else so far. I
don't look at bubbles like waste, I like to look at it as information coming
out of there, although encoded into a noisy time stream of bubbles. My
motivation lies on the firm belief that no matter how complex and noisy
bubbles may seem, the information in that stream is wortwhile if just
properly decoded. Once I make some more progress and things start to get
more coherent I'll put a bubble page page up for this for anyone to judge
for themselves.

 /Fredrik


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:16:04 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Organizing All This Stuff

Dave Larsen wonders how we organize All This Stuff

"That got me wondering what everyone else does, so I thought I'd pose the
question: How does everyone organize all their brewing crap?"

My organization was horrible until I broke down and went to Home Despot and 
bought a real nice 2-door white melamine storage cabinet on sale. It's about 
6 feet tall, and 4 feet wide.  I've set it up so my conical fermenter sits 
in the lower right compartment, shelves on the lower left hold supplies, 
gadgets and the large shippers scale.  The top compartment is full-width, 
and it's the "laboratory".  It holds both mag stirrers, the smaller scales, 
glassware, colorimeter, etc.  I mounted some PVC pipe pieces to the inside 
top of the cabinet.  My thermometers and hydrometers slide into these, and 
are well protected.  My kettles sit on top of the cabinet. The inside of the 
cabinet is wired for power (to run the instruments and mag stirrers) and the 
lower right fermentation compartment has a thermostatically controlled 
heater for winter fermentation.  It cost something like 70 or 80 bucks.

I have a separate industrial shelving unit 8 feet high, with 4 ft by 2 ft 
steel shelves that holds all my cooperage, and the stuff that won't fit in 
the cabinet.  The brewhouse itself is mobile.

My garage is still a disaster, but my brewing cabinet is very organized!

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:09:41 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: build your own hop back

Here is my old design for a hop back.  Our club is having a hop back
building party soon and I'll take some pictures to put up because
my new design is a lot better 

http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20020429191318951

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site 
"Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is"
    - Denny Conn


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:24:19 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Hop Back / Percolator

Rodolf asked about Hop Backs and Percolators.  More Beer carries Hop Backs.
Open the link below and then click on "Weldless kits & kettle Accessories.
Just a satisfied customer.

http://www.morebeer.com/

I have a old percolator to make coffee in.  Not sure how you would use one
to make beer.  If there is a piece of beer making equipment called a
percolator, I don't know about it.  I'll keep tuned in.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:09:04 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Low Carb Beer


<"Don Howard" <donchoward at comcast.net>
 < Is there a more complicated but doable way for a biology/chemistry
challenged
homebrewer?  >

This might be counter intuitive and go against a lot of published common
wisdom, but you get low final gravities, hence low carb, beers by using a
lot of sugar.  I have brewed a beer that was 75% cane sugar and 25% DME.  It
was low carb and, while it didn't taste like much, it did not have the
cidery flavor that a lot of people will tell you that it should have.

A 66% corn sugar beer I brewed just took third in its category at the total
156 entry Beer and Sweat Competition Saturday.

These beers should be given a dose of yeast nutrient because they may not
ferment out completely because of poor yeast reproduction due to the low
level of nutrient in the wort.  Lack of nutrient has not shown itself to
cause the cidery flavor, that flavor is strongly associated with old, stale
extract.

If you want to try this yourself, I recommend using LME that you know to be
fresh, DME or all grain.  I would hesitate to do this with canned extract
unless the "Use By" date is 1.5 years off.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:15:01 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Celiac Sprue



 AJ <ajdel at cox.net>A colleage came to me and asked if I as a brewer could do
anything to
help her alleviate the beer related aspects of his daughter's plight -
she suffers from celiac sprue (often described as an intollerance to
wheat gluteins but barley hordeins are equally problematical). >

We sell a kit that makes a mead that is a good fake of beer using hops and
corn derived malto dextrin.  While it may not fit a style necessarily,
anyone drinking it blind will instantly recognize it as beer.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:32:17 -0400
From: "Mike Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Organize brewing gagets..

hatever I use, I need to be able to carry, push, pull or roll out into
the 
kitchen on brew day, but also be something I can easily stuff in a
closet 
somewhere when not in use (one day a month the kitchen belongs to me,
the 
rest of the time it belongs to SWMBO).

That got me wondering what everyone else does, so I thought I'd pose the

question: How does everyone organize all their brewing crap?
 -!--------

For me, that was the easiest part.. I took over an entire room of my
house! We moved into a new house a couple years ago and since it's just
me and the wife right now, that left 2 spare rooms.. So one is a guest
room, and the other is "the beer room" as she calls it. ;) With the
thoughts of a nursery swirling around in her head, this maybe short
lived.. But I'll be damed if I don't have that entire room packed with
kegs, mash tuns, bottles from the floor to the ceiling, and so forth.. I
have no idea what I'm going to do when I'm 'evicted' from there..

Mike




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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:59:38 -0400
From: Kevin McDonough <kmcdonou at nmu.edu>
Subject: RE: Hop Back / Percolator

Beer, Beer, and More Beer <http://www.morebeer.com/> now sells a hop back, 
with various configurations of fittings/connections.  Their one with 1/2" 
FNPT fittings is $79.  They go up from there, depending if you get brass 
quick disconnects, thermoplastic QDs, or sanitary fittings to be used with 
clover clamps.

Simply type in hop back (two words) in their search window.

Kevin



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:16:06 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Sulfite in wine, O2 vs O,nitrogen sensors, CO2 danger in manufacturing and breweries 

Brewsters:

Larry Suarez asks an off topic question about adjusting sulfites in wine
before bottling.

Titrets ( a commercial product from the hobby store) will allow you to
determine sulfites.  Easy answer ( without getting into pH and and free vs
bound SO2 and stuff) is add 1/8 tsp of K meta bisulfite to each 5 gallons of
wine ( ~30 ppm SO2 under normal conditions) .

Make up a solution of 1/8 tsp Kmetab'ite in 125 mls of water and add 5 mls (
tsp) to each 750 ml bottle before adding wine. This prevents "bottle sickness"
due to oxygen incorporation during bottling.

Dsicussion to my e-mail off line, please
- ------------------------
Ron Laborde and others,

Oxygen's molecular symbol ( in which state it exists for all practical
purposes)  is O2. NOT O.   O would refer to and be called "Nascent Oxygen" or
"atomic oxygen"   O2 is correct for our purposes.
- ------------------------
Pete,

Don't you mean you will see <oxygen> sensors where nitrogen ( and other gases)
are stored?  Nitrogen makes up 80% of air.
- ------------------------
Without thinking about it, a vintner friend of mine once lowered himself into
a freshly emptied fermenter and had the good sense to realize he couldn't
breathe and being young and athletic was able to scramble out before dying.

Often in chemical plants and wineries and breweries multiple deaths occur in
the same incident since friends and workers go into the same vessel quickly,
without clearing it, to rescue a compatriot.

And then there was O'malley who drowned at a Guinness brewery when he fell in
the bottling tank.  He did have to get out three times to have  a pea before
he succumbed, though.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:50:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Tighe <steve_tighe at yahoo.com>
Subject: Celiac Sprue

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:18:08 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Sprue

A colleage came to me and asked if I as a brewer could
do anything to 
help her alleviate the beer related aspects of his
daughter's plight - 
she suffers from celiac sprue (often described as an
intollerance to 
wheat gluteins but barley hordeins are equally
problematical). I seem to 
remember this subject coming up here before but a
quick look at the 
archives wasn't very helpful. Does (or has) anyone
here brewed a beer 
(successful or unsuccessful) for people who suffer
from this disease? I 
so, can you describe it, give a recipe etc.?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Celiac Sprue is an allergy to gluten, which is found
in barley, wheat, and most other grains (and lots of
other stuff). I have a friend with this, and his
beverage choices are pretty much limited to wine, rum,
potato vodka, and ta-kill-ya.

There was an article in Zymurgy about a year ago about
brewing gluten-free beer. Basically, you need to
select from the very few gluten-free grains (and of
course I can't remember what they are, but I guarantee
your friend knows). The biggest wrinkle is you'll need
to malt the grains yourself, unless you could somehow
find malted versions of these grains (which the
article suggested you wouldn't).

There was also a concern about yeast, since yeast are
propagated in a gluten-containing medium. I think they
suggested dry yeast.

In any event, yes you can brew "beer" that is
gluten-free, but probably not with materials you
usually buy in the homebrew shop.

Steve in Berkeley



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:14:24 -0700
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: re: you've got mail

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:20:57 -0700 (PDT), Rama Roberts <rama at sun.com> wrote:
> On a good note, Pat and I have been discussing a fix that will help limit
> future spam. The HBD archives expose email addresses as Mailto links-
> perfect for "scrapers" to harvest them and pass them on to spammers. Our
> plan is to convert those addresses, for example:
> 	billgates at microsoft.com
> to
> 	billgates AT microsoft DOT com

A better form of email obfuscation would be to replace the individual
characters with their character-entity equivalents.  Here's a website that
converts email addresses you feed to it:

http://alicorna.com/obfuscator.html

It turns foo at bar.com into something like this:

&#102;&#111;&#111;&#64;&#98;&#97;&#114;&#46;&#99;&#111;&#109;

Browsers will display it properly, and if you click a mailto link, it'll
work.  Address harvesters, though, aren't smart enough to decode the
character entities back to plain text.  Here's an example of a webpage with
a bunch of obfuscated addresses:

http://snafu.alfter.us/officers.shtml

Creating some code to generate obfuscated email addresses would be
trivial:

#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>

int main (int argc, char **argv)
{
        int i, j;

        for (i=1; i<argc; i++)
        {
                for (j=0; j<strlen(argv[i]); j++)
                        printf("&#%d;",argv[i][j]);
                printf("\n");
        }
        return 0;
}

Call it with the addresses to obfuscate as parameters (separated with
spaces) and it'll spit out obfuscated addresses (one per line).

Scott Alfter
scott at alfter.us


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:24:01 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 1st all grain brew & resultant questions

Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com> in Churubusco IN writes:

>1.079, FG approx. 1.009. ...I know this is a strong beer, but I
>get a horrible hangover from it!  A 1/2 gal growler
>over an evening is a guaranteed head pounder.

I don't think you need to look any further than the amount of alcohol 
to explain your headaches.  While you might have higher alcohols 
(fusels) from your fermentation temperature or other reasons, there 
is some dispute as to whether or not these actually cause headaches 
and/or hangovers.

The calculator at 
http://realbeer.com/spencer/attenuation.html#alcohol gives 8.2% ABV 
for your beer, which means that in that 1/2 gallon growler, there is 
5.25 oz (155 ml) of alcohol.  That's the equivalent of nearly nine 
standard drinks (defined as 12 oz. beer at 5%, 5 oz. wine at 12%, 1.5 
oz. spirits at 80 proof/40%).

Another way of looking at this is that it is the equivalent of a half 
bottle of vodka.  That would give me a headache!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:43:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chip Stewart" <Charles at thestewarts.com>
Subject: Brewing Gear and Convoluted Copper Tubing

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Tucson Dave Larsen Inquired:
> 
> How does everyone organize all their brewing crap?

Dave -

I can't recommend enough the baker's rack that I picked up from Costco for about
$70.  Not only do I store everything on it, but I even use it as the stand for
my RIMS system - I actually brew on it!  When I'm done, I just wheel it out of
the way.  I store all the misc. brewing stuff in plastic storage bins that store
on the shelves.  I have some older photos of it on my web site at
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com/brewing/ but have since added a 10 gal. hot water
heater on top (modified to produce 170F water) for sparging.

On another topic, I'd like to build a counterflow chiller and a hopback.  I'm
thinking of nesting the hopback inside the chiller to save space.  Anyhow, I'd
like to use the convoluted copper tubing inside of clear tubing for the chiller.
 Anyone know of a source for the convoluted tubing?

Chip Stewart
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:08:38 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: organizing brewing crap

Hey all -

I use an old 6 drawer highboy dresser that was sitting unused in the
basement.  Lets me split up all my stuff into themes (hoses in one drawer,
kegging stuff in another, etc) and it keeps the dust off of it all.  I'll
bet the majority of readers here have at least one piece of sad lonely
furniture in their basement like this.  Put it to use!

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:05:22 -0400
From: tidmarsh at bellsouth.net
Subject: Party ball

Greetings, all--

I've recently acquired from a non-brewing friend a commercial beer 
sphere/party ball container.

I've done a search of the archives and seen that in the past parts were
available to reseal these containers after refilling, but the references 
date back nearly a decade, so I wonder if any such products are still 
available.

I did notice one post from 1990 that described sealing the vessel for
conditioning with a wired-down rubber stopper that was removed to allow 
the tap/pump to be reused, albeit with a less than perfect seal.

Does anyone know of a source for parts to re-use a beer-sphere? Seems just 
the thing for a friend's annual homebrew party--the contents will be 
consumed in a sitting, and no transportation of CO2 tanks.

Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:24:55 -0700
From: "Charley Burns" <charleyburns at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Mash temp and yeast for a Foghorn Clone

I'm ready for my next attempt to try and clone old foghorn.

This time I'll stick with northern brewer hops all the way through, even
though Michael Jackson thinks they use some cascade. I used cascade last
time but the gravity was so high (1.115) that everything else was thrown
off. I lost my notes so I don't know what yeast it was, but it was
probably wyeast 2112 (lager yeast masquerading as an ale yeast).

Assuming 2-row or pale ale malt for 90% and 10% crystal, what is
recommended mash temp and which yeast is recommended?

Should we go for a low mash temp (~147-150F) and a low attenuating yeast
or a higher mash temp (~155-160) with a more aggressive yeast? Seems
like both methods would leave us with a high gravity and big bodied
beer, I'm just wondering which one would taste the best? A low
attenuating yeast would leave more sweetness (I think) while a higher
mash temp would give us body (dextrins) without the sweetness.

Any comments or suggestions?

Charley Burns



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:14:00 -0500
From: "John Sarette" <j2saret at peoplepc.com>
Subject: plastic bottle caps.

Scott Cortney wants to cap clean empty beer bottles. I can help in his quest
for plastic caps
- ----But these would be very handy for
keeping empty, cleaned and sanitized bottles for your next brewing
ession.  -----
I take plastic caps from 20 oz water and soft drink bottles
cut them from the bottom (open side) with a cross and they will snap onto a
beer bottle.  I sanatize them in bleach at the same time I do the bottles,
let them both dry and cover the bottles unrinsed.  when its time to bottle I
rinse the bottles in the dish washer.  It works fine and there is a never
society of ours.

John
Duluth of the North









- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:33:12 -0400
From: "Steven P. Bellner" <sbellner at chartertn.net>
Subject: New Freezer - Operation Question

My beer freezer was one of the casualties of I lightning strike I
experienced earlier this month, and my insurance company has agreed to
replace instead of attempt a repair.  I have ordered a Whirlpool 20 cuft
chest freezer which was about the same size as the defective unit.  I used
the auxiliary thermostat to run the freezer at 38 F like so many people do,
and until the damage occurred, it ran like a charm.

I mentioned to the appliance sales rep the intended use for the freezer, and
he immediately stated I need to have a refrigerant heater timer installed on
the unit before I connect up the external thermostat.  He said it is
essential to use one of these to extend the life of the compressor.  I have
never heard of such a device.  Is this a line of bull, or is this device
needed perhaps because of the use of the new types of refrigerant?  I have
heard of individuals that own GE freezers that cannot use them in their
garages because of external temperature problems in the winter that causes
the compressors to stop pumping.  I wonder if this is a similar phenomenom.

Steven P.  Bellner
sbellner at chartertn.net




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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:25:29 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds-Mike Zapolski-Part 1-Questions

			Dr. Cone Responds-Mike Zapolski-Part 1-Questions

   First, I'd like to thank Dr. Cone for sharing his valuable time,
experience,
and knowledge with the HBD organization.  My yeast related questions are as
follows:
   1) Cold Pitching, Why does it seem to work?
In certain brewing forums there has been much discussion related to cold
pitching yeast into ale worts.  Basically, about a pint of yeast is
harvested from the primary of a brew batch and stored in a sealed container
at refrigerator temperatures (abt 45F).   At some later time (perhaps as
long as 1-2 months), that yeast is pitched directly from the refrigerated
container into a new batch of sweet wort  at  70-75F.   Based on my
experience (and observations) this method works quite well, and appears to
reduce lag times (from 1.5 to 4 hours).   Can you help us understand why the
cold pitching process works?  Or have we just been lucky?
   2) Mid-Fermentation Nutrient Additions - Are there any advantages, or
disadvantages, that may occur by adding yeast nutrients to a beer (or wine)
after fermentation has begun, but before the mid-point between the OG & TG?
   3) What are the differences between yeast nutrients, extracts, hulls, and
energizers?   What does each product do to facilitate fermentation?   At
what stage of the brewing proces should they be added to be most effective?
Under what circumstances should one use each of these products [what should
the brewer look for as an indicator], and what might be a typical amount
added to a 5 gallon batch?  Is there a product that combines these
individual items into a single overall yeast "Superfood"?
   4) For a given ale yeast type, does controlling ale fermentation
temperature
in the 60-68F range have a noticeable affect on the resulting beer's
flavor?  If so, which ale yeast types are most sensitive to fermentation
temperature?
   5) What factors (that the brewer might be able to control) influences
yeast
attenuation?  For example, if an ale yeast has an optimum temperature range
of 68-73, will holding the primary temperature at 68F yield a better
attenuation, than at 73F?
Thank you,
Mike Zapolski, Sr.


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:28:13 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds-Mike Zapolski-Part 2-Answers

		Dr. Cone Responds-Mike Zapolski-Part 2-Answers
Mike,
   1. I have not seen any studies done using this protocol.  If I had to
take a guess it would be centered around the Trehalose content in the yeast
cell.
Trehalose seems to be an all around stress related factor. Almost
immediately upon the cold storage of the yeast, trehalose begins to build up
to help the yeast to adapt to its new environment.  Upon pitching this
stress factor assists the yeast to adapt to its new environment; warmer
temperature and higher osmotic pressure.   If the pitching yeast is allowed
to warm up for any appreciable time before pitching the carbohydrate
reserve, trehalose being one of them will be quickly used up as an energy
source.  The yeast would then take a longer time adapting to its new
environment in the wort thus increasing the lag phase.
   Something similar happens when using Active Dry Yeast.  The factory
builds into each yeast cell an abundance of the stress factor; trehalose.
Our
recommendations is to rehydrate the yeast in warm water and pitch into the
wort (or must) within 30 minutes, because the yeast will begin to metabolize
its carbohydrate reserve including trehalose immediately upon reactivation
and weaken the yeast if it is not in the presence of a new supply of energy.
It will have also used up the stress factor that would have assisted it in
adapting to the new osmotic environment.
   I am sure that there is more to the explanation than I have given.
   2. Yeast respond to a fresh source of nitrogen through out its growth
phase and early pert of the stationary.  The sugar transport systems have a
very
short life(2+ hours) and enzymes involved need replenishing and a supply of
nitrogen. So an incremental feeding is ideal especially to minimize H2S
production.  This is ideal and begins to be a factor as the O.G increases.
With a well mashed wort a low gravity would probably not benefit from this.
A high gravity fermentation would definitely benefit. There are other things
involved in incremental feeding. All the nutrients up front results in an
increased growth of yeast with a lower level of protein when it reaches the
stationary phase.  Incremental feeding restricts the initial growth but
increases the yeast protein level.  The higher protein level in each cell
increases the fermentation rate and protects the cell against alcohol
toxicity near the end of fermentation. Again, this is only beneficial to a
higher alcohol fermentation.
   If you have the analysis of the wort available you can add the exact
amount
of nutrient. You will need to work with the nutrient supplier. Usually I
begin with 1-2 pounds of the product per 1000 gallons(0.5 -1.0 gram /
gallon)of wort.  That is a safe range to start with.  You can go up or down
on the next batch according to your evaluation of the current batch.
   3.Yeast nutrient is anything that the yeast needs for a healthy growth
and to stay alive during the stationary phase; sugar, useable nitrogen
(FAN),
minerals, trace elements, vitamins and oxygen. A well balanced nutrient like
Fermaid K will supply these requirement.  Most all malt wort contains a well
balanced diet for low gravity fermentations. Sometimes minerals like zinc
and magnesium are on the short side. It is when you move up to higher O.G
and higher cereal adjuncts addition that added well balanced nutrients need
to be considered.
   Extracts are concentrated extractions of malted barley (malt extract) or
autolyzed yeast with out the cell wall.  Malt extract, as you get in a kit,
makes a very good beer.  Many of the useable nitrogens are bound up by the
Maillard reaction and are not available to the yeast. Yeast extract contain
most of the nutrients that the growing yeast require.  However you are
limited in the amount that you can use.  Above a certain level, you may
begin to detect it in the flavor of the beer.
   Yeast hulls are my favorite.  It is probably the best balanced source of
nutrient but can be used in a limited amount before you detect it in the
finished beer. Lallemand yeast hulls are cell walls loosely separated from
the cytoplasm of well  autolyzed yeast.  These cell walls contain well
digested protein that is high in available nitrogen. It also contain lipids
that are necessary for yeast growth and protection against alcohol toxicity.
Lipids are what you produce when you add oxygen to the fermenting wort.
   Diammonium phosphate is an excellent, cheap source of available nitrogen
for the yeast. You have to evaluate it carefully for flavor and aroma
profile if
you use it as a sole supplement.
   Enegizers is a name that could include any or all of the above.  Many
distributors have their own formula.
   Fermaid K is a well balance yeast nutrient that was formulated based on
many years of experience of yeast production.
   There are two new products that have come onto the market recently.  They
do not replace the need for Fermaid K but augment it:
GO-FERM is a product that is used in the rehydration water (not in the wort
or must) for Active Dry Beer and Wine yeast. It maintains the vitality of
the yeast through out the entire fermentation. This becomes important in
higher gravity brews.
   Servomyces offers a biological source of zinc to the yeast. The
biological source seems to make it more available for the yeast.
   4. If all other factors are the same, you should be able to tell the
difference in fermenting ale at carefully controlled variations in
temperature. Variations in the malted barley, mashing and pitching yeast
from batch to batch can mask any differences that you would have when
comparing different fermentation temperatures.
   Very high alcohol fermentations where alcohol toxicity is involved,
cooler temperature near the end may be needed for full attenuation.
   5. Attenuation or the conversion rate of all the fermentable sugars to
alcohol (plus by-products) is directly related to temperature. So the higher
the temperature the faster should be the attenuation.
   Flocculating after attenuation is primarily controlled by the yeast
strain itself. However, excessive re-pitching and acid washing is
detrimental to
the hydrophobicity (flocculation) of the cell wall. A deficiency in minerals
such as calcium adversely effect the flocculation properties of the yeast.
Clayton Cone
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:37:18 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Single yeast establishments

Rama & Y'all,

I once had your same disgust with commercial establishments using only one
yeast for all their brews until I started really looking into the issue.
Remember, it takes only one living yeast cell to reproduce and contaminate
another yeast culture. On a large scale, it is impractical for commercial
establishments to use more than one strain. Contamination would result as
different batches passed through various equipment. You would in essence,
have to make two entirely separate breweries in order to use two different
strains on a continuing basis.

Yes there are some small establishments (some brew pubs for example) that
are able to deal with multiple strains but they aren't trying to keep the
same pure
strains going through years of production. Rather, they must re-purchase
base strains periodically to maintain purity and as a result are decreasing
their margin.

I guess as homebrewers, not trying to make a milk-cow of our muse, we are
fortunate in that we are afforded the luxury of picking a new strain for
every batch.

For what it's worth,

Chad Stevens
San Diego



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:13:05 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone's Final Comment-Gump Reports

			Dr. Cone's Final Comment-Gump Reports

Folks,
   As we wrap up a successful session with Dr. Clayton Cone and a Fortnight
of Yeast, I would like to personally thank Dr. Cone, Dr. Fischborn, Dr.
Waldrop, and Dr. David Logsdon.
   Your collective generosity builds bridges of knowledge...and will
continue to do so as the info is preserved on the HBD and the Lallemand
website....
   As far as the questions...WOW, what an impressive and thought provoking
collection. The questions posed by the HBD to Dr. Cone have been brilliant
and can only hint at the level of expertise apparent in the HB world.
   By my calcs, all has been answered...if anyone has any that were posted
within the session that we have missed, please let me know.
   Thank you, brewers and brewsters. I can't disagree with a private e-mail
comment from Fred Nolke of Anchorage, Alaska..."It's the highest and best
use of the HBD."
   And we owe it all to Clayton Cone.

Cheers!
Gump
P.S. Fredrik, Don't let your donkeys eat your spent grain! (If you don't
know, please ask!)


Rob,
   I would like to thank all the participants in the question and answer
session during the past two weeks. I have enjoyed the experience.  It has
been a learning curve for me. My old mind is spinning. It is always of
interest to me as to what technical information is not getting to the home
beer (and wine) maker or is not being understood and needs to be addressed
in a better way. I would also like to thank Drs. Tobias Fischborn and Forbes
Wardrop at Lallemand Research Center for their able assistance.
   There is usually no one answer when it comes to brewing and wine making.
There are opposing views on all aspects of fermentation.  I hope that my
answers will open a dialogue that we can continue to respond to.
   See you on the Lallemand website.
Clayton Cone

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:34:02 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Yeast Adaptation (Newbie Question)

In a query to Dr. Clayton Cone, I said the following which I admit 
might not make that much sense:
"We're told yeast will adapt to the medium, at least for scale."

This is due to my very limited knowledge of yeast but I'm glad we got 
an interesting reply on the subject of yeast adaptation. Just to 
clarify (and hopefully get a better understanding), what I meant was 
about progressively ramping up starters. I thought the reason we can't 
just use a very large starter right at first was that yeast adapts 
somewhat to the wort volume.
Sorry about that.



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:45:30 -0700
From: yax <yax75 at shaw.ca>
Subject: Electric Kettle Control

What is a good way of controlling your boil in an electric kettle? I was
thinking about using just a stove rheostat, or else using two switches
in line of the element. With both switches on 240 V would be supplied
and with just one switch on only 120 V would be supplied. I have heard
of some people using PID controllers, but this seems like overkill. Any
suggestions would be great though. 

Thanks 

Dave




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