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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Spent Grains ("Dave Larsen")
  Copper/bleach,CO2 inbeer,orange oil, buggy grains, hazy cider ("Dave Burley")
  re: Sanitizers ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Phosphoric acid (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
  star san and iodophor (Alan McKay)
  Re: star san and iodophor (Alan McKay)
  RE: Sanitizers (Jonathan Royce)
  kids and beer (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Batch Sparge Calulations (gew03)
  Grain Pests ("Dan Listermann")
  Re: Sanitizers ("Eric R. Theiner")
  RE: Star San (Brian Lundeen)
  Domestic hot water heaters, commercial brewing and thermobacteria. ("Dan Listermann")
  Using Star San ("Harlan Nilsen")
  Re: Batch sparge calc's (Denny Conn)
  Why prime with DME? ("Joe Berardino")
  Low watt density heaters (stencil)
  Wyeast Distillers Yeast ("Kirk Fleming")


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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 05:44:20 +0000
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Spent Grains

Okay all-grainers, I thought I'd pose the question: What do you do with your 
spent grains?  Anybody out there got any crazy uses for them?

Answering my own question, this is what I do.  It is nothing too crazy.  My 
wife's mother helps run the Springer Spaniel Rescue in Phoenix.  She takes 
the grains from what I brew and makes dog biscuits, using a recipe I found 
here on HBD.  She then sells them at fund raising events.

Dave
Tucson, AZ



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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:58:31 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Copper/bleach,CO2 inbeer,orange oil, buggy grains, hazy cider

Brewsters:

Steven is concerned about using bleach to sanitize his copper and that there
might be a reaction which will kill him.

Steven,  you will not die from using bleach to sanitize cooper fittings and
then rinse with very hot water.

Copper falls below hydrogen in the electrochemical series and cannot be
dissolved by dilute acids.  BUT concentrated nitric acid will dissolve copper
since in its conc form it behaves as an oxidizer.

Perhaps someone guessed ( or knows)  that since chlorine bleach is an oxidizer
the same will happen. And it might, in long contact and high conc., I don't
know.  But during normal usage this is not a problem. In any event, a <little>
copper in beer is a necessary thing for healthy yeast

For all those readers  "but, but, butting...."  If you pour acid down a copper
tube you may get the characteristic blue color of cupric ion in solution.
This is because the copper <oxides> have been dissolved by the acid  not the
copper metal.  These copper oxides were formed by the reaction ( corrosion) of
copper metal by that famous oxidant - oxygen - in the moist air. .

And remember that, until recently, most boilers in a brewery were called
"coppers" for a good reason.
- ---------------
Colin, if you know the pressure above the beer after it is stabilized then you
know the CO2 level in the keg.  If you are force carbonating and then bottling
you measure the pressure above a beer bottle with a pressure guage and then
calculate the cabonation.

One way to do this is with a large rubber septum wired on a beer bottle and
your guage fastened to a large needle ( vet or Tractor supply) through a hose.
Push the needle throught the septum and measure the pressure.

Or even cheaper, you could fasten a large balloon on a beer bottle and shake
it until the stops gas coming off.  Dimension of the balloon would tell you
the volume of CO2. Pressure will be higher than atmosphere due to the balloon
elasticity, but it will be a graphic demonstration. Calculate the size of
balloon you will need before you try the experiment. {8^)

- --------------
Steve, many decades ago I read that orange oil is a yeast inhibitor.  Don't
know if this is correct, but it may explain your results.
- --------------
Greg,  Chances are the bugs ( or their eggs)  were already in the grain when
you bought it.  If it is just grain you can heat it briefly in the oven about
220F and kill all. Malt is a different problem as this option is one which you
should do with great care on <dry> malt and expect some loss of enzyme
activity, but it will not be a lot if you keep the time short.

Best option is to use up your grains and malt quickly.

If you choose to brew with buggy malt don't forget the protein rest!
- -----------------
Jeff S., Gelatin is a protein and needs something like tannin or hops to react
with to clarify.  In clarifying you will lose components of the brew. That may
not be desirable. Use the minimum amount of gelatin.  Too much and you will
get a protein haze. Add gelatin that has been made up in water according to
instructions on the package.

I'm not sure there is much tannin in hard cider unless you used bitter apples
or crabapples in making it.  Most often the problem with cider is a pectin
haze and that can be dealt with by using pectinase before and sometines after
fermentation or in some cases bentonite will do the trick on the final
product.  Try a sample of each first.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:12:35 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Sanitizers

Tim writes concerning sanitizers -
> Requesting some collective wisdom on the subject of sanitizers. I have
> been using Iodophor sanitizer for some time with good results (assuming
> it is rinsed promptly and thoroghly). Recently, my local supplier
> stopped carrying Iodophor, and began carrying StarSan, an acid-based
> sanitizer.

You mention rinsing promptly & thoroughly - the first thing you need to
realize is that both iodophor and StarSan are No Rinse Sanitizers. When you
rinse, you have the risk of reintroducing nasty beasties to your just
sanitized vessel or brewing implements from your rinse water (potentially, not
necessarily). If used at proper concentrations, both products are ok to let
dry & use, or even use immediately without drying. Robert Arguello had
performed & written up an experiment on iodophor several years back. The link
I had seems to be broken, but you might try googling on his name & iodophor or
searching the back HBD archives. He found that even fairly high concentrations
of iodophor left in the beer couldn't be tasted. Obviously, this has limits...
but in proper concentrations it will be effective as a sanitizer, doesn't need
to be rinsed, and won't be detectable in the finished beer.

> In my first experience, I found the StarSan to be a bit of a pain to
> use, as it foams greatly, and leaves residual foam in my brewing vessels
> which requires further rinsing.

StarSan is also a no rinse sanitizer & won't be detectable in your beer ....
at proper concentrations. And sorry, I don't have it & the instructions handy
to give you the proper concentration but it would be easily found on the Five
Star web site (or someone here is likely to post it). The bubbles do persist
for quite a while, but will dry & disappear given time. But again, you can
rack into your vessel immediately without any problem.

One advantage of StarSan over Iodophor is that it can be stored and reused
more effectively. Iodophor loses its effectiveness more quickly. Now, both
products are reasonably cheap for one-time use, but many of us are cheap
enough to want to extend the use - and StarSan is better in this respect. One
reason I like the better long term life of StarSan is that you can keep a
spray bottle of StarSan handy & use it to spray things for better sanitation,
for example the top of your carboy & airlock before racking, etc. Just spray &
give it a couple of minutes & you've increased your level of safety.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL

I hope you're all going to enter our 1st Annual Hogtown Brew-Off, Oct. 11th
http://www.hbd.org/hogtown/Brewoff.html




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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:22:08 -0400 
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
Subject: Phosphoric acid

I'm in the process of restoring an old Honda motorcycle that had a rusty gas
tank.  The people who know better than me suggested that I go to Tractor
Supply Company and purchase a gallon of Milk Stone Remover.  I did, and it
worked wonders.  My rusty gas tank is no longer rusty, and it has a nice,
inert coating on it so it shouldn't rust again...

Any application for this stuff in my brewery?  Its about 50% phosphoric
acid, and 50% surfactants, dyes, and other.

The most obvious thing would be as a CIP cleaner to remove beer stone, as
that's what its used for on a dairy farm (ok, not to remove beer stone, but
you get the picture!)  I know that to quickly passivate stainless you should
use nitric acid (right?), would this be a reasonable substitute?  Any
thoughts?  Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Kevin
Canton, MI
'73 CB350 (restoring)



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Date: Fri,  5 Sep 2003 07:21:54 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: star san and iodophor

Tim,

You absolutely have to read this article :
http://bayareamashers.org/iodophor.htm

Neither of these sanitizers have to be rinsed.  And I know first-hand
that it is a tough leap-of-faith to make, but the foam from Star San
can be simply left in as it will not harm you or your beer.  Do not
forget to reuse your Star San mixture - it can last for months.

cheers,
 -Alan

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Fri,  5 Sep 2003 07:23:34 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: Re: star san and iodophor


p.s. The proper mixture ratio according to the instructions on the
bottle is 1 oz per 5 gallons, which is a 1:640 ratio or 2 tablespoons
per 5 gallons.

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Fri,  5 Sep 2003 04:22:01 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: RE: Sanitizers

In HBD #4341, Tim Hamrick asked about StarSan & its correct concentration and 
then goes on to say that he doesn't like it because it foams. 

Tim:

You said you are using 3/4 TBS per 5 gallons. I can't tell if you mean "3 OR 4 
tablespoons" or "0.75 tablespoons", but in either case, that is not the correct 
concentration. As I believe every bottle of StarSan I've purchased says on the 
bottle, the correct concentration is 1 oz (which is 2 tablespoons) per 5 
gallons of water. 

As for the foam, that is one of the best parts of Star San, because anything in 
contact with the foam is also sanitized. That means that for a 6.5 gallon 
carboy you can fill it with (for example) 3 gallons of sanitizer and shake to 
create enough foam to fill the vessel. (Some people also like to keep Star San 
in a spray bottle in order to be able to spray bucket lids and other things 
that are difficult to submerse.) Futhermore, there is no reason to rinse the 
foam from your equipment after sanitizing. AFAIK, there is nothing toxic in 
Star San and the actual volume of sanitizer remaining in the foam is 
insignificant in comparison to the 5-6 gallons of wort that it is being mixed 
into. Since wort has significant buffering capacity, that small amount of acid 
will have essentially no effect at all.

Hope that helps.
Happy brewing,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:06:58 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: kids and beer

I have mostly skimmed over the posts on this subject, but just last
night I was reading an article in one of the news magazines (Time,
Newsweek, U.S.News,,I forget which one) about how in Wisconsin a child
can buy and drink alcohol in a bar as long as they are with a parent or
guardian. The article mentioned that there are six or seven other states
with laws like this.

At first I thought they must mean someone younger than 21 but at least
18 years of age, but that's not it. A Wisconsin legislator wants to
change the law so that they have to be at least 18. Wow! Has anyone ever
witnessed a kid buying and drinking in a bar?



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Date: Fri,  5 Sep 2003 13:46:11 +0100
From: gew03 at dial.pipex.com
Subject: Re: Batch Sparge Calulations

Mike O'Donnell is right, it's plain daft to do one set of calculations
for a brew, and then 'adjust' them because they're based on a different
process.  I find it hard to believe that any one is promoting this approach
as it obsucres the simplicity of the method and the related calculations. 

The beauty of batch sparging is that once you know two parameters:
i)The amount of water retained by each kilo of grain
ii) The efficiency with which the sugar in the grain 
    gets into the wort at each stage
   (Not to be confused with the overall mash efficiency)
,you can easily create a simple spreadsheet that allows you to work out the 
overall mash efficiency in a jiffy. You certainly don't need anyone's 'magic'
calculator.

You can work out the values for both of these parameters with one test mash.

I have written my own excel spreadsheet for batch sparging , and would be 
willing to send it to anyone who wants a copy. Using it I hit target gravity
to within a degree every time. 
If the number of mails asking for copies gets too big I'll maybe post it 
somewhere on the web once it's tarted up a a bit. 

Cheers
John S Findlay, Edinburgh










- -- 


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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:00:21 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Grain Pests


<From: gregbrews at webtv.net (Greg Peters)
Subject: grain pests (saw tooth beetles)

I am a new member of hbd and am curious if there are any remedies for
eliminating or controling grain pests.
It seems as though I had a fair ammount of grain stored for about a year
in a spare igloo cooler and the bugs found it!
I have vacuumed all around the storage area and cleaned  averything.  Is
there a good insect spray specially for
weevils and other grain pests? >

A CO2 bath will suffocate the bugs.  Either run a hose from your regulator
to the bottom of the grain container with the lid loosely on for a short bit
or, if you have a lot of containers, buy some dry ice.  A little goes a long
way.  If kept sealed for the life cycle of the bug, they are gone until
others manage to get in.  Obviously CO2 is harmless to the grain.


Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:00:33 -0400
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sanitizers

Tim Hamrick asks about sanitizers in general and StarSan in particular.

First, I use many items for sanitizing-- Iodophors, StarSan, heat, and even 
One Step (which I happen to make).  (Whoops!  Did I say One Step is a 
sanitizer?  I meant to say that it is a CLEANSER due to my lack of EPA 
registration despite... well, never mind.)

I generally use what happens to be close at hand, and I tend to have a good 
bit of different sanitizers in my brewhouse thanks to my job/profession.  I 
agree with Tim that StarSan is a pain because of the tendency to 
foam.  Furthermore, I know why it foams (dodecylbenzyl sulfonic acid-- 
DDBSA) and it gives me pause because I'm not sure about the impact that has 
on beer.  Don't get me wrong-- I have drank and judged many a beer from 
homebrewers who use StarSan religiously and have never detected a taste 
that I would associate with that surfactant, nor have I done any testing to 
determine impact on head retention, so my fears may be groundless.  (To 
those that would argue that the big breweries would never use something 
that would negatively impact their beers, I point out that the residue left 
behind in a five gallon fermenter is significantly higher than that in a 30 
barrel-- it's a matter of surface area to volume.)

Iodophors sometimes foam terribly and sometimes don't-- it's a matter of 
the carrier that the iodine is incorporated into.  When they foam less, 
there is less residue left behind in the fermenter-- QED.  When they foam a 
lot, I have the same thoughts about the nonionic ethoxylates that I do 
about the DDBSA in StarSan.  Of course there are efficiencies of chemistry 
that are brought into play, and I would think that the ethoxylates are not 
as much of a concern as the DDBSA (DDBSA will have more effect on a system 
with less).

Just some thoughts.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:46:48 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Star San

Tim Hamrick writes:
> 
> In my first experience, I found the StarSan to be a bit of a 
> pain to use, as it foams greatly, and leaves residual foam in 
> my brewing vessels which requires further rinsing. I am using 
> the StarSan at a concentration of 3/4 tbs per 5 gallons of 
> water. Is this concentration too high? Do others experience 
> this problem? What says the collective regarding products for 
> sanitizing?

First of all, your concentration is too low. You should be adding 1 oz to 5
US gallons, which is roughly 2 tbsp. I have heard effective contact times
ranging from 30 seconds to 2 minutes at that level. I err on the safe side.
Actually stuff usually just gets tossed in the bucket and left until I need
it. The only exception being my copper wort chiller (yes, I know I can
sanitize it by just plunking it in the boil for a few minutes). I don't like
to leave copper in there for too long.

As for the foam, don't worry about it. Drain it as best you can, but
whatever is left in there will have absolutely no negative effects on
fermentation or taste. Don't rinse it. You are potentially undoing all the
good you've done, depending on what nasties might be in your water. 

And it keeps for a long time, too. I maximize its life by mixing it up with
RO water, and as long as the pH is 2.9 or less and it is not cloudy, it is
effective. This stuff is great.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:56:17 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Domestic hot water heaters, commercial brewing and thermobacteria.

What concerns would one face using the above?

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35 
and East of the Mighty Miss.






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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:19:26 -0500
From: "Harlan Nilsen" <ramnrah at nebi.com>
Subject: Using Star San

Tim Hamrick wrote and was wondering about the use of Star San for sanitizing
his equipment.  I have used it for several years and feel it is a great
sanitizer.  No, I do not have any connection to them.

The proper mixture for Star San is 1 oz. (2 tablespoons) per 5 gallons.
Yes, it will foam but that is OK as even the foam will sanitize so I am
told.  Used at this mixture it is a no rinse sanitizer.  I know that
sometimes it will leave foam in bottles, fermenters, cornies etc. but I just
don't worry about it.  It does not hurt anything and is tasteless.  Also at
that small amount it doesn't seem to affect yeast.  In fact if you look on a
can of C. Cola you will find phosphoric acid as one of their ingredients.

I also keep some in a spray bottle to spray down a lot of my equipment
before I use it and I have never had any infections.

Hope this helps you.

Harlan
32nd St. Brewery




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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:35:07 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Batch sparge calc's

No, Michael, you're not missing anything.  That's basically the right way 
to do it.  Just calculate the recipe for whatever efficiency you get, 
regardless of your sparging technique.

         --------------->Denny

At 12:22 AM 9/5/03 -0400, you wrote:


>Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 08:44:03 -0700
>From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
>Subject: Re: Batch sparge calc's
>
>Something is puzzling me about batch sparge calculations.  Why is it
>necessary to create a recipe using one set of assumptions and then scale it
>up using various scaling factors.  Why doesn't it just work to lower the
>efficiency settings in the original recipe calculations... it seems like
>that ought to give the correct quantities, but I am probably missing
>something.




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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:11:45 -0400
From: "Joe Berardino" <misbrewhaven at hotmail.com>
Subject: Why prime with DME?

I recently purchased a book for brewing clones. I notice some
recipes call for using 1 1/4 cup of DME for priming. I've always
used corn sugar for this purpose, but have been told I could use
DME, honey or even Karo Syrup. No matter what way you go,
I thought that it really wouldn't have any affect on the outcome
or flavor of the beer.  Is there a real advantage or benefit for using
one type over another or is it really just personal preference. I guess
what I am getting at, is I just want to make the tastiest brew that I
possibly can. If always priming with DME will make a difference, then
by all means I will make the switch, or is this method really beneficial
for just certain styles of beer?

Confused in Daytona,
Joe B.



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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:54:38 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Low watt density heaters

RIMSers might be interested in the stock tank deicers sold by American
Livestock Supply 
http://www.americanlivestock.com/cattle_55.mhtml
 - particularly Item 419, the submersible cast aluminum 1500 Watt beauty
currently on sale.  The thermostat will need to be diddled and the submersible
feature may be problematic for some, but it certainly looks like a very
efficient unit.  They also show some nice thru- the- plastic- bucket- wall
heaters.
Disclaimer:  I am neither a RIMS brewer nor a stockman, nor do I portray
either on TV.  The ALS catalog appeared spontaneouly, presumably because
recently I bought some thermostats from FarmTek, qui google.

stencil sends


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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:15:36 -0600
From: "Kirk Fleming" <kirkfleming at earthlink.net>
Subject: Wyeast Distillers Yeast

Hey kids! It's been about an aeon since I've posted to this most revered of
all amateur brewing publications, but today's post is not about brewing per
se. While researching recently I ran across a Wyeast product called, I
think, Distiller'sYeast, and I can't find it using Google today. Has anyone
found it, seen it, know the Wyeast number for it, etc?

Dry yeast products for fermenting sucrose washes definitely do the job, but
my brewing heritage and the use of sucrose as the sole ingredient for a
consumable product just don't mix. Can my old pals at HBD help out here?

Kirk Fleming
FRSL, FRSE, MS, BS & Even More BS



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