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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: [Well] Spent Grains (Chris.Pittock)
  scientists at work and play.... (Bob Devine)
  Re: bitterness from decoction ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: First Post / Stuck Fermentation / `Safe' SG (chuck duffney)
  Spent Grains ("Doug A Moller")
  Food Grade Silicon (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Spent Grains (Michael Hartsock)
  silicone & spent grains (Chet Nunan)
  Color in no-sparge / batch sparge recipes (Christopher Swingley)
  Leaking bags of spent grains (Calvin Perilloux)
  Spent Grain ("Harlan Nilsen")
  kids and beer in Wisconsin (Todd Etzel)
  food grade silicone (beerbuddy)
  Re: Grain Pests (hollen)
  Recirculating Wort Chiller Question ("Steve Laycock")
  Harpoon IPA recipe (Stephen T. Kajdasz)
  Munged email addresses... (Pat Babcock)
  IBU's in a decocted beer ("Jeff & Ellen")
  pregnant wyeast and I am not the dad. (aa8jzdial)


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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:04:07 +1000
From: Chris.Pittock at dpi.vic.gov.au
Subject: Re: [Well] Spent Grains

Dave Larsen asks about spent grains....  Well, here in Horsham (a rural
town ~halfway between Melbourne and Adelaide) I swap my spent grain for
eggs... grain goes in, eggs come out!  Otherwise, if there aren' enough
hungry chooks, it gets VERY well dig into the compost...  this makes it
less enticing to any passing rodents, and keeps any fungal festivals to
dull roar.
Cheers - Chris (Australia...  sort of South... ALOT)




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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:53:04 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: scientists at work and play....

For those who have spent enough time in academia, a great read
is the Annals of Improbable Research (http://www.improbable.com).

>From this month's issue comes two notes on beer research:

OBSERVATION...
"Naturalistic Observations of Beer Drinking Among College 
Students," Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, E. S. Geller, N. 
W. Russ, and M. G. Altomari, vol. 19, 1986, pp. 391-6. . (Thanks 
to Robert P. Rolfe for bringing this to our attention.) The 
authors report that:

        We observed the beer drinking behavior of 
        308 university students in several bar and party 
        settings. The following relationships were found: 
        (a) males drinking beer in bars consumed 0.92 oz 
        per min; (b) females drank less beer than males... 
        (c) patrons drank significantly more beer when 
        drinking in groups and when purchasing beer 
        in pitchers versus cups or bottles...

 ..AND EXPERIMENT
"The Effect of Modelling on Drinking Rate," W. K. Garlington and 
D. A. Dericco, Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, vol. 10, 
1977, pp. 207-11. (Thanks to Katherine Doherty for bringing this 
to our attention.) The authors explain their work thusly:

        Three male college seniors were asked to drink beer 
        at their normal rate in a simulated tavern setting. 
        Each was paired with a confederate, also a male college 
        senior, in an ABACA single subject design. In the 
        baseline conditions, the confederate matched the drinking 
        rate of the subject. Baseline and all subsequent 
        conditions were continued in 1-hour sessions until a stable 
        drinking rate was achieved. In Condition B, 
        the confederate drank either one third more or 
        one third less than the subject's baseline rate. 
        In Condition C, the direction was reversed. All three 
        subjects closely matched the confederate's drinking rate, 
        whether high or low.

Science marches on!

Bob Devine


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Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:23:36 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Re: bitterness from decoction

>Marc Sedam:

> Could the alpha acids be precipitating out with the protein-tannin complex
in the decocted beer?[...]

I've been lagering an oak aged Bierre de Garde for some time now hoping this
very phenomenon would occur; not to drop the bitterness but to drop some of
the tannic acid.  The barrel was virgin American oak and imparted way to
much oak tannin.  After six months in the corney in the fridge, the haze has
dropped out along with much of the tannic trigeminal bite thing AND some of
the bitterness; still has a way to go, but is far more user friendly than it
was just a few months ago.

I'm not certain decocted lagers are less bitter than other lagers however.
I've not found myself bumping up the hop additions for decocted brews versus
infused brews.  But any observation on my part is entirely anecdotal.  That
having been said, now that I think of it, I can remember a few decocted
beers mellowing over time (nine months, a year) to a seemingly slightly
greater extent than infused lagers; again entirely anecdotal, and I haven't
done that many lagers by infusion.

I guess one of the questions should be, are more isomerized alpha acids lost
to protein or tannin complexes?  Are more beta acids lost....?  Does a
triple decoction result in more tannins and less native protein than an
infusion?  (Not meaning to beat the protein horse at all, but it may figure
in to a certain extent).

With regard to decoctions and hop flavor, I have to amend/retract a
statement I'd made a month or two ago.  I have mash hopped for some time and
have really been impressed by the flavor this regime has provided.  The mash
hops have always been added during a decoction, IOW they've been boiled in
the mash.  As a control, I made two batches of mash hopped wheat beer
recently with no decoction and no hops in the boil.  One batch was with
fresh pellets from mash in, single step infusion and the other was with two
year old stale whole hops, again added at mash in, single step infusion.

In both brews I added enough hops to provide 30 IBU's had they been added
for a 60 min. boil.  The fresh hops imparted absolutely no bitterness and
only very slight flavor.  The aged hops provided about 5-10 IBU's by my
estimate, and not terribly pleasant at that.  I assume this is consistent
with the alpha acid requiring isomerization in the boil and beta acids
oxidize over time assertion.  The flavor imparted from the aged hops was
more apparent as well but not as pleasant as I would have liked.

I had thought mash hopping was the cat's meow, but now I'm not so sure.  I
think it only provides the desired effect when boiled with a portion of the
mash.  I'm now going to have to do an entirely mash hopped decocted pilsner
with no hops in the boil to see if in fact the nice flavor I've thought I
was getting from this practice was from the mash hopping or actually coming
from the kettle boil additions (assuming I can bring myself to endure a
twelve hour brew day for an entirely experimental beer; I guess they're all
experiments).

FWIW,

Chad Stevens,
San Diego



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:37:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: chuck duffney <cduffney at wesleyan.edu>
Subject: Re: First Post / Stuck Fermentation / `Safe' SG

Clayton,

You sound like me when I first posted.  I think my first post was
something like that back when I was taking off for a vacation, and I
wanted to know if I could safely bottle my batch, what's the ultimate SG
reading I needed to be sure.  The answer is based on a final SG reading
you cannot be sure.  There is no magic number really.  I do most of my
brewing more artistic than scientific and often don't get a reading for
the original gravity, so I know your situation.

I always give my ales at least 7 days in the fermenter.  If by then it
stopped bubbling, you can bottle.  If the airlock is still bubbling at a
rate to not bore you between bubbles, there is no harm in letting it
ferment for a total of 14 days, and you should let it keep going.  As
you've noticed, beer can take care of itself.  If you got to that point,
the yeast have a large population on any infection and the alcohol will
help to prevent as well.  If something happened, like the beer got chilled
one day because you left your bedroom window open (perils of brewing at a
new england university), and you think the fermentation is stuck, I
suggest pitching some dry yeast; follow the instructions on the package.
That's why I keep a few packages lying around all the time, dry yeast will
keep for a long time as well.  Artists tools.

As for measuring the gravity of the beer, if you didn't get an OG reading
a FG reading only fills one variable in the equation, so it comes back to
just guessing.  There is no absolute number that means it's time to
bottle.  Most of the recipes I have mention a range for the final gravity,
so don't think that the recipe you got was giving you a mandate.  The best
way to use those numbers is to see the difference the recipe gives between
OG and FG.  That is more or less the measure of fermentable sugar in the
recipe.  Other things you add to the brew affect that number, but if you
measure you OG then you should expect it to fall about the difference
given in the recipe.

Since you brewed on Wednesday, I'd wait till Wednesday to bottle at the
earliest.  But the slowing of the airlock bubbling i expected after about
4+ days for some ales.  Now if you are brewing a big beer like a
Barleywine or winter warmer you would expect a long fermentation due to
lots more sugar.

chuck_d

PS - The Pats took a beating.. It was painful to watch, & it hurt my
fantasy team.


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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:16:10 -0500
From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com>
Subject: Spent Grains

Hi,
Spent Grains make great mulch 2" - 3" deep. This can be done winter or
summer.
I am trying to use them as fish food in some spare tanks I have.
I used to give them to my cousin who fed them to chickens and said it help
them lay more eggs in the winter!

Doug A Moller



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:20:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Food Grade Silicon

I know that DAP makes a food grade silicon.  Look at
Home Depot, I know they have it, lowes probably does
too.  While if it is aquarium safe, it probably would
be ok, I wouldn't risk it.  For the three bucks it'll
cost you, get the FDA approved stuff.

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Spent Grains

Bill,

I know just how you feel.  In the winter, I can bag it
up (wait till it cools, thats probably why the bags
leak) and put it in the trash barrel with out much
trouble.  I tried that the first time I brewed in the
summer and found out what a sealed trash bag full of
grain spontaneously fermenting smells like when it
popped. Whew...  Anyhow, I started a compost heap in
my very small garden, but the flies are becoming a
greater problem than the smell.  that, and its very
hard to keep my dog out of the heap (he loves spent
grains, and I'm never sure how much he can eat without
deleterious effects, any vets out there??).

I'd say composting is your best, E-friendly way to
deal.

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:45:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: silicone & spent grains

Jules Myers asked about food grade silicone sealant. 
I couldn't find it at any hardware places, but I was
able to pick some at a restaraunt supply house that
was labeled as food grade. 

Bill asked about spent grain disposal.  You mentioned
a garden...it works as compost in the winter as well,
and if you spread it out, no one should have a reason
to complain.  You could also buy a plastic garbage can
dedicated to your grains - double bag em, toss em in
the can and keep it closed till garbage day.  It
should hold the smell down depending on how much time
it sits between garbage day and brew day.  Or, if
there is a local parks dept., they may have a compost 
site you could haul them to.

Chet Nunan
Churubusco, In 



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:50:15 -0800
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Color in no-sparge / batch sparge recipes

Greetings,

What do those of you who use no-sparge / batch sparge methods do about 
color?  It is my impression from what I've read on the subject 
(including the article in the recent Zymurgy) that color isn't affected 
by efficiency, so if you're reducing your overall efficiency to account 
for your method of removing sugars from the grain, don't you necessarily 
alter the percentages of darker grains, and thereby change the character 
of the brew?

Meaning, for example, that if your efficiency with fly sparging is 75% 
and it's 60% with batch sparging, you can't simply increase each grain 
by 25% because you'll wind up with too much color from the darker 
grains.  So, if you want to maintain color and gravity with a no-sparge 
/ batch sparge recipe, you need to increase the quantity of *only* your 
base malt, leaving the others intact, which reduces the percentage of 
darker grains, altering the flavor profile.

What am I missing here?

Thanks!

Chris
- -- 
Christopher S. Swingley          email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program         Please use encryption.  GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks   www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Leaking bags of spent grains

Bill in the previous HBD encountered problems with spent grains 
between brew day and garbage day:

>>...How do the rest of you city guys get rid of this stuff???
>> I've found that even if I put the grains in a plastic
>> garbage bag, put that inside of another plastic garbage
>> bag, put that in a paper bag, then put that inside another
>> plastic garbage bag, this stuff still leaks all over the
>> place, right through the bags.  I have no idea how.

Depending on your desperation, and the need to keep the HOA
happy, you can do what we do sometimes for liquid nasty stuff
that leaks:  Put it in the freezer!  It will keep just fine
till garbage day, though maybe you'll need a pan or newspaper
underneath it in case it leaks before it does freeze.  Not the
most energy-efficient way to deal with, I know, but it works --
we do it for small items like old meat, etc. and it works great.
'cept sometimes you discover it weeks or even months later, 
still in the freezer awaiting garbage day. 

Calvin Perilloux



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:02:14 -0500
From: "Harlan Nilsen" <ramnrah at nebi.com>
Subject: Spent Grain

Bill ? was wanting to know what to do with spent grains in the wintertime.
I just sprinkle them out on my garden and don't worry about it.  In the
wintertime they will freeze or the birds will help themselves.  Then in the
spring when you rototill the garden they will be worked into the soil and
compost in short order.  No odor and it really makes the soil nice and soft
and aerated.  Your garden will thank you for this.  Of course I save a fair
amount first to make into bread.  If you haven't tried this you do not know
what you are missing.  If you need a recipe I will furnish it for you if you
contact me privately as I do not want to clutter up the HBD.
Harlan
32nd St Brewery
1733 miles from Boston and 1733 miles from San Francisco.




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Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 09:08:04 -0700
From: Todd Etzel <tetzel at ligo.caltech.edu>
Subject: kids and beer in Wisconsin

Regarding legal under age drinking in Wisconsin, I can verify that it is 
(or was 20 years ago) true.  Most bar owners wouldn't serve an extremely 
young kid, but I used to drink legally starting at 15 with a parent 
present. It's actually a good way to learn that it's possible to drink in a 
bar without getting totally hammered.

Todd in Pasadena, CA




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Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:30:00 +0000
From: beerbuddy at comcast.net
Subject: food grade silicone

<<I'd like to seal that area with something. I've managed to find some
> "aquarium
> safe" silicone, but there's no mention of FDA. I'm guessing if it's good
> enough
> for fish, it's safe enough for me. >>

I'm sure you'll get other more detailed answers, but the short of it is that 
there are 100% silicon products labled "food safe." I don't know that I would 
trust anything else. Mine came from the local Ace, and I've gotten some at the 
depot before. Be sure that it is also rated to temperature, since you'll be 
using it at sparge temperatures. This is typically used on hot water lines in 
the house, so they're listed as food safe up to x degrees. 

Just keep looking, you'll find it. 


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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:46:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: hollen at woodsprite.com
Subject: Re: Grain Pests


Thanks to Dan for a good way to get rid of them with CO2.

Grain pests (weevils and moths) don't "get into your grain".  These bugs
come *with* your grain.  After sitting long enough, they eventually hatch
and then you have bugs.  Actually, you had them all along, you just don't
see any evidence of them until they hatch and begin crawling around.

dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen



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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:21:23 -0700
From: "Steve Laycock" <slaycock at discoverynet.com>
Subject: Recirculating Wort Chiller Question

Greetings All!
I am wanting to set-up a recirculating wort chiller using an inline pump to
circulate the water between the actual wort chiller and a cold  exchanger
source.

Anybody have any idea on the amount of liquid volume the pump needs to be
capable of circulating (gpm) to achieve the task of proper circulation in a
std 3/8 od copper tubing system ?  Any other special pump considerations I
may want to consider?

I'm not sure whether I  will recirculate glycol or H2o, but either shouldn't
matter in regard to the gpm needs.

I'm considering using either an air conditioner unit or a commercial soda
pop dispenser with the built in chilling section as the cooling source.

Thanks for any & all help...
Steve in KC
Highwater Brew Haus




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Date: 08 Sep 2003 17:42:32 EDT
From: Stephen.T.Kajdasz at Dartmouth.EDU (Stephen T. Kajdasz)
Subject: Harpoon IPA recipe

Does anyone have an all-grain recipe for Harpoon IPA
they would be willing to share?  Thanks.

Steve Kajdasz
Lebanon, NH


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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:38:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Munged email addresses...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Well, while debugging some problems which have recently surfaced
within the Brewery.org domain, I went ahead and mangled the HTML
digest email addresses and the code that generated them. I was
about to un-mung the mailto's when a question occurred to me
that the spam harvester's machines could read them from the
code, eve though it doesn't display (after all, I doubt they
need the display - just the HTML source. Thoughts? Any reason to
"unmung" these mailtos? They'll still open a blank email - but
you'll need to fix the address.

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:59:25 -0400
From: "Jeff & Ellen" <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: IBU's in a decocted beer

Steve asked "about the idea that decocted beers generally have reduced
bitterness for a given hopping schedule.    What does the collective think
?"
I have found just the opposite to be the case in my brewery.  I find myself
scaling back the bittering hops in a decoction brew to please the critical
judges at competitions.  I thought that the decoction process somehow added
a flavor that confused some people into thinking it was hop bitterness.  My
sense of taste recognizes it as something else, but to do better at
competitions I use about 20% less bittering hops when I decoct.
Anybody else notice this?
BTW I bury the spent grains in the back yard.  I'm sure it gives my
neighbors something to think about.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa



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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 01:41:01 +0000
From: aa8jzdial at comcast.net
Subject: pregnant wyeast and I am not the dad.

Greetings all. 
Been a long summer and the hb is all gone.
I grabbed a slam pack of ale yeast that sat all summer in the fridge and it was 
somewhat swollen. I am concerned. I found and popped the pouch inside but am 
wondering if anything funky is going on. Stepped up to quart of canned starter 
this evening and all smelled okay.
Not to worry??
rick
Whitehall Mi.


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