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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  San Antonio suggestions ("Dan Schlosser")
  RE:  Fresh Hops Off The Vine ("David Houseman")
  Re: Fresh hops ("Jerry Zeidler")
  Improving Clarity with Head Pressure (Jonathan Royce)
  RE:using Mr. Beer kits in normal brewing? ("Mike")
  Splenda (Fred Johnson)
  RE:  Fresh Hops off the vine! (val.dan.morey)
  Iron in well water ("Dave Burley")
  sourdough instructions (Jeff Renner)
  Subject: Alaskan Smoked Porter Recipe Question: ("Ira Edwards")
  The 20th Annual Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition - The Dixie Cup Get's Lei'd ("Mike Heniff")
  More on Iron ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: batch (Christopher Swingley)
  Medical Grade Gas ("Tanksalot")
  Good brew in Charlotte? ("Tray Bourgoyne")
  Need help with translation please (Jim Wilson)
  RE: How to sweeten a brew? (Gunnar Emilsson)


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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:48:21 -0500
From: "Dan Schlosser" <dan-schlosser at wi.rr.com>
Subject: San Antonio suggestions

I'm going to be vacationing in San Antonio for a few days and I am looking
for some suggestions in my quest for good beer when on the road.

We will be staying in the Riverwalk / Alamo area. We will not have a car
which I know limits my options. My first hope is that someone can suggest a
store where I can purchase craft beer to stock the hotel room.

If there are any brewpubs in the area I would love to hear about them. If
not, then any recommendations on restaurants and/or bars that serve good
food and beer would be appreciated.

Thanks;

Dan Schlosser
Wauwatosa WI



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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:49:17 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE:  Fresh Hops Off The Vine

JP,

I'm made a fresh hops ale.  I picked my hops during the mash.  Since I had a
variety of hops that's essentially what I picked, so there wasn't a single
identifiable variety.  I just made a guess at alpha acid and added hops to
the boil for bitterness.  Since these were whole, green wet hops, I believe
I estimated that were they to be dried, I'd lose 75% of the weight and
worked back to consider how much to add.  I also tossed some handfuls in for
flavor and aroma.  I also stuffed a hopback with hops and ran the hot wort
through there on the way to my chiller.  This turned out to be a pretty good
American Pale Ale with noticeable hop character.  I underestimated the total
IBUs; I could have added more hops.   This is an interesting experiment to
try.

Dave Houseman



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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:34:34 -0400
From: "Jerry Zeidler" <gjzeidler at suscom.net>
Subject: Re: Fresh hops

JP is tempted to toss fresh, undried hops from his garden into the
brewpot...

I've been growing my own hops for about 7 years now, and I think anyone who
has grown them has been tempted to use fresh hops while brewing. But, to be
honest, you will probably not be happy with the results if you try it.

While I've heard of some brewers using undried hops sucessfully, my personal
experience has been that undried hops produce a grassy flavor that will
dominate the beer. Take the extra time to dry the hops, either in a food
dehydrator or on a couple of window screens in a dim, warm, dry room. It
will be worth it, for certain.

Jerry Zeidler
Williamsport, PA



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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:02:50 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: Improving Clarity with Head Pressure

Hi all:

In the October Issue of BYO in the "Tips from the Pros" section (page 14), 
Todd Ashman of Flossmoor Station Brewery is quoted as saying the following:

"Something else that works for us is to use top pressure when carbonating our 
beer. Essentially, this means that carbonation is pressing down on the beer in 
our Uni-tanks, which forces particulate to the bottom and lends to clarity."

My initial reaction to this statement is: "Bollocks." I can think of no 
scientific explanation (based on good physics) which would explain how head 
pressure forces particulate matter to the bottom. The only way in which 
pressure creates motion is when a pressure differential is created, and my 
thought is that in a closed, pressurized vessel, there is no differential. 
(i.e. Everything (gas and liquid) is at the same pressure). 

Can anyone think of some other explanation (other than "pressure forces 
particles to the bottom") that might explain how clarity is improved by head 
pressure? 

Thanks in advance,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:38:06 -0400
From: "Mike" <brewski at inet99.net>
Subject: RE:using Mr. Beer kits in normal brewing?

I friend of mine got started with a Mr. Beer kit he got at Save-A-Lot. It
probably wasn't fresh either.

What I would do is replace all the sugar with pale malt extract, either dry
or liquid. You said it had no instructions so you probably have no idea what
it calls for however for the style of beer you are making, make sure you hit
the S.G. Also, make sure there is enough hops in it. To freshen it up a bit
I would add a pound of light color crystal malt. You might even roast the
crystal malt in a 350 degree oven for 10 or 15 minutes. If you do this its
best to let the freshly roasted grain mellow about a week before you us it
but I have crushed used it right out of the oven.

Mr. Beer kits can be used to make good brews but you have to doctor them a
bit.

Mike


- ---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:29:19 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Splenda

The list of ingredients on a package of Splenda, presumably in order of 
concentration by weight, are:
Dextrose
Maltodextrin
Sucralose

So how can this be a "No Calorie Sweetener"?  What are the actual 
concentrations of the listed ingredients?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:00:28 -0500
From: val.dan.morey at juno.com
Subject: RE:  Fresh Hops off the vine!

JP asks about using fresh hops off the vine.  The main thing to consider
is that fresh hops contain quite a bit of water.  Last year I weight the
hops at harvest and after they had been dried.  It went from over 6 lbs
to about 3/4 of a pound.  To get the same amount of alpha acids and oils,
you will need to use 6 to 8 time the weight.

Cheers,
Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble/


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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:42:03 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Iron in well water

Brewsters:

Ira Edwards in Anchorage asks about water treating for his well water.

First, Ira, be sure the source of the iron is the well and not the iron pipes
in that old house you intend to rent.  Ask the landlord to install a water
softener, if the source is the well. If not, it may simply be acid water from
CO2 in the water and aeration will fix it pretty cheaply.  I once had a lot of
iron from the rusting of new well parts.  Iron ( ferric)  in your water can
dissolve any copper piping with undesirable leaking and loss of faucet parts,
esp the brass screws, etc..

Perhaps these ion exchange treatments which attach to your faucet will work
for drinking and brewing, but not for your laundry.  You may be able to pipe
water directrly to the laundry room with plastic pipe if the well is not the
problem. There are other ways to solve the iron problem. I'd ask the water
treating company.

If you do install a water softener ( I have seen some that are rented, so
check out your water softener companies) , use a membrane - Reverse Osmosis -
treatment to remove the salt from the water to produce low sodium water that
you can use in brewing and drinking.  Beef up your personal mineral intake
with pills. This RO water is totally mineral-less and therefore has no
important trace minerals.  Add the appropriate minerals for your brewing.

Remember too much iron ingestion for guys is no good. I have two friends who
go once a month to have a pint or so of blood withdrawn to reduce the iron
content of their blood.  I doubt this is due to too much ingested iron, as
they have reduced that substantially,  but  be sure to talk to your doctor
about the appropriate course of action.

Keep on Brewin',

Dave Burley




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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:06:56 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: sourdough instructions

Brewers

A number of people have asked that the handout I gave at my talk on 
sourdough at the National Homebrewers Conference in June in Chicago 
be put on the web.  Spencer Thomas has just done this (thanks, 
Spencer).

It is at http://hbd.org/aabg/sourdough_starter.html.

Hope some of you try making some sourdough, even though you don't 
have my starter.  You can find starters online.  I recommend the 
newsgroup     rec.foods.sourdough FAQ at 
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.food.sourdough.html.  
It is an incredible compendium of information, including culture 
sources.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:57:18 +0000
From: "Ira Edwards" <ira_j_e at hotmail.com>
Subject: Subject: Alaskan Smoked Porter Recipe Question: 

Hi All,
being from Alaska and having ready access to Alaskan smoked porter, and 
being a fan of smoked dark ales and lagers in my brewing endeavors, there 
are a few things to remember about the Alaskan variety.

they use malt smoked at the brewery with Red Alder (Alnus oregania).  this 
gives it a strong smokey flavor that is also somewhat sweet (alder smoked 
salmon is wonderful).  some of the commercial smoked beers I have tasted 
mellow to almost no smoke character with age and some stay very harsh for a 
long time.  The Alaskan variety is labeled with the year on it and is 
definitely worth aging away.  It mellows a lot while still retaining the 
smokey sweetness a few years later.

since it is kind of a pain to smoke the malt if one is not already smoking 
fish, it is better to get a few friends together and do a larger batch.  My 
method and that of some of the others in my club is to find one of the Chief 
Electric smokers and build an enclosure with some sawhorses, tarps and 
window screens.  You cover the smoker and the sawhorses with the tarp, and 
then lay the malt (which should be dampened with water) on the screens.  I 
have suspended the screens on grids of milk crates, but you can come up with 
your own way to keep the malt up in the enclosure.

alder chips are easy to come by if you live near the Pacific Coast where 
some one is clearing brush, or you can buy it in bags  from where ever you 
find the smokers.  I only use one tray of chips in the smoker and then let 
the malt air out overnight.  One of the guys in my club does a similar 
method but he says he uses 2 trays of chips for a more smokey flavor. with 2 
big window screens, i can do 20# of malt which is about all I need for 
several batches (about 4-5 a year). It sound like a lot of work, but it is 
less than an hour to setup, mist the grain and start the smoker.  Then I 
just leave it overnight, and vacuum bag the grains in the morning (on a 
weekend) and toss them in the freezer to keep them fresh.

Hope this helps.

 -Ira Edwards
Anchorage Alaska

==================================
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:00:26 -0400
From: ensmingr <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com> wrote

There's a world of difference between peat-smoked malt (*very* strong;
can be cloying) and Weyermann beechwood-smoked (mild). I have used
beechwood-smoked up to 50% of my malt bill, but would suggest 5% or less
of peat-smoked.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY



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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:12:05 -0500
From: "Mike Heniff" <m.heniff at earthlink.net>
Subject: The 20th Annual Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition - The Dixie Cup Get's Lei'd

Well, it's that time of year again and the Dixie Cup is upon us.  It's
no different this year, lots of great beer and lots of great fun.  As
usual, we have a fun and interesting theme - Hawaiian - it will be the
world's largest homebrew luau.

Here's all of the info:

Dates: 10/16/03 to 10/18/03
Location:  Holiday Inn Select Greenway Plaza, Houston, TX
Event Info:  Reception on 10/16/03 at The Orange Show
www.orangeshow.org, five renown speakers including Fred Eckhardt and
beer writer Gregg Smith.  More info at www.foamrangers.com (and follow
Dixie Cup link)

Entry Deadline: 10/3/03, $6 per entry, 3 bottles required per entry
Late Entry Deadline:  10/10/03, $10 per late entry
On-line entry registration will be available ASAP

Entry Shipment Location:  DeFalco's, 8715 Stella Link Rd, Houston, TX
77025

All 26 BJCP categories will be judged (and split into 42 medal
categories) including "First Time Entrant" and "Special Dixie Cup Beer"
categories (see website for more details).

For more info, contact Mike Heniff at m.heniff at earthlink.net or call me
at 281-489-3762





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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:50:25 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: More on Iron

I thought I'd add a couple points in response to some of the other postings. 
  While cation exchange water softeners will remove iron by the same 
mechanism that they remove Mg and Ca, some have strict limitations on the 
amount of iron they will remove.  It depends on whether the regeneration can 
remove the iron or not.

And I believe that it's not a good practice to use a water softener to 
remove iron from naturally soft water.  Regenerable manganese green sand is 
the way to go here.

Also, I neglected to mention that the manganese green sand filters do have 
limitations on the concentrations they can handle, but it's pretty 
high--perhaps 10 mg/l or more.  It depends mostly on the size, and whether 
they continuously regenerate.  If you have REAL bad iron, oxidation by 
chlorination or aeration followed by sand filtration is probably the only 
viable alternative.  If the iron-loving bacteria I mentioned are a problem, 
you might have to use chlorination anyway.  You can always strip the 
chlorine out later.  This is a pain for household water, though.

Even though you're only treating household water, it might help to 
understand how you'd handle it if you were building an ultra-high purity 
treatment system.  A typical pre-treatment process for feedwater high in 
iron and/or manganese, that is also fairly hard, would start out with either 
green sand filtration, or oxidation/sand filtration treatment, followed by 
dechlorination (if necessary), followed by cation exchange water softening.  
The pre-treated water then goes through the high purity treatment  stages, 
which is usually RO following by mixed bed ion exchange, and finally 
ultrafiltration for polishing. The product water here would be too pure to 
drink.

If you end up using chlorination, make sure you install the dechlorination 
*before* the water softener.  Activated carbon dechlorinators are bacterial 
infection sources, and the resin in the water softener will significantly 
reduce the bacteria count downstream.

In any case, as simple manganese green sand filter, that's exchanged by your 
local water softening company (don't bother with the regeneration for 
household use) is probably the way to go.  The same companies that will 
manage your water softener will also provide the exchangeable green sand 
tanks.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:49:42 -0800
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: batch

David,

* Peters, David (D.T.) <dpeters3atford.com> [2003-Sep-19 06:48 AKDT]:
> My experience leads me to a couple questions on the process that I 
> didn't see answers to:
> 1.  Should the 2nd sparge be stirred into the mash?  I would think 
> due to compaction and streaming, etc.  this would be required.
> 2.  Should the 2nd batch sparge be left to dilute the remining 
> sugars for a period of time prior to beginning the runoff?

I'm not exactly sure what the established procedures really are, but 
here's what I do:

    * The first infusion is whatever I'd normally do for a fly sparge 
      recipe, which generally is 1 quart of water / pound of grain.  So 
      at this stage, the mash is exactly the same as the fly sparge 
      recipe, except I've got more grain to deal with.  I used to use 
      the equations to calculate scale up factors from the normal 
      recipe, but now I just use a lower efficiency (my batch sparge 
      efficiency is about 60%).

    * The first sparge is done with however much water is left to bring 
      up the water to 1/2 the boil volume + the amount of water held by 
      the grain.  Grain holds about 0.52 quarts / pound.  
      
      For the recipe I brewed today (smoked porter) I had 16.5 pounds of 
      grain, my first infusion was 16.5 quarts, and the first sparge 
      volume added was 6 quarts.  I shoot for 7 gallons of pre-boil 
      liquid.

      6 q in the first sparge + 16.5 q in the mash = 22.5 q liquid which 
      should yield 14 quarts of wort (0.52 * 16.5# = 8.5 quarts held by 
      the mash).

      With these numbers, 6 quarts of boiling liquid won't bring the 
      mash up to 168 F, but it hit 165 F, so that's pretty close.
      
      I stir in the additional liquid before running it off.  I usually 
      recirculate a gallon of runoff before it goes into the pot.

    * The second sparge is done with half the boil volume (14 quarts in 
      my case).  I mix the liquid with the mash, but I do try to avoid 
      scraping the bottom when I do this.  I've got a stainless steel 
      screen at the bottom of my lauter tun and I don't really want to 
      disturb the very lowest layer of the mash.  But it's probably not 
      a huge deal even if you do because you've still got water 
      underneath.

      I don't wait before running off the second sparge.  As soon as I'm 
      done mixing, I start the runoff.  I recirculate another gallon 
      before letting it run into the pot.  I think there's plenty of 
      time for the sugars to dissolve in the new slug of hot water, and 
      I haven't noticed any change in the color or gravity of either 
      sparge from start to finish.

It's worked great for me.  In a 10 gallon cylindrical cooler (mine is an 
yellow Igloo), I use no-sparge methods when my original gravity is below 
1.050, and use a batch sparge when it's above (because there's not 
enough room in the tun for a no-sparge with 16# of grain).

No-sparge (really it's more like a single sparge) is the same except 
I've only got one addition of sparge water, which I mix in with the 
mash, then drain.  So far my efficiencies aren't statistically different 
between no-sparge and batch sparging (even though no-sparge methods 
should be less efficient), so it doesn't really matter for recipe 
formulation.  YMMV, of course.

Chris

- -- 
Christopher S. Swingley          email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program         Please use encryption.  GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks   www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/



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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:47:33 -0400
From: "Tanksalot" <tanksalot at rogers.com>
Subject: Medical Grade Gas

I'm remembering this from about ten years ago, but the expanation offerred was
that "medical grade" Oxygen or CO2 was available separately but at additional
cost than "industrial grade" gas.  The reason being that the compressors used
for industrial gases were "oil sealed".  It was a hassle for the
manufacturers.  When the technology improved, all gas comes from "non oil"
compressors so we don't have to worry about oil or other odors in our O2 or
CO2.  Ask your supplier where the gas comes from, then call the manufacturer
to be sure.  Hope this helps.  Larry at Tanksalot



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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:16:35 -0500
From: "Tray Bourgoyne" <tray at netdoor.com>
Subject: Good brew in Charlotte?

Howdy all,

The wife and I will be in Charlotte, NC for vacation in October. Can you
point me to some good brew? Good pubs, bars, etc with good micro brews or
even just a good beer selection.

Thanks!

Tray



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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:02:08 -0700
From: Jim Wilson <jgwilson at adelphia.net>
Subject: Need help with translation please

Last week, Peter Brouckaert, New Belgian's head brewer was in LA for The
Sheraton Four Points monthly beer appreciation night.  We had a wonderful
six course dinner accompanied by seven of New Belgian's beers.  After
dinner, Peter gave away posters for a variety of their beers.  He inscribed
mine "IL KOOP DATJE RIET VOROS EITITET WEETRJIK!"

I'm not sure which language he used.  Could anybody help with a translation
please?

Jim Wilson

                  o          \o
   __o         /\          /
  `\ <>       `\ `>       `\  >
(*)/ (*)    (*)/ (*)    (*)/ (*)

I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle.




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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gunnar Emilsson <cdmfed_emilsson at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: How to sweeten a brew?

Charles Gee wants to know how to make sweeter brew. 
That is the easiest question to answer I have ever
seen on the HBD - USE MUNICH MALT!!!!

- ----------

Jim Busch and Lori Brown are posting about where to go
drink beer and eat delicious German food in Dusseldorf
 - damn, I'm jealous!  Why go to O'fest in Munich with
the crowds when you can go there?  Any recipes that
can make the 100+ pounds of elk/deer/antelope meat I
have in my freezer taste like saurbraten or some other
roasted caraway seed/pickle stuffed/cabbage concoction
would be greatly appeciated - post away, folks!

Gunnar Emilsson
Helena, MT

=====
Gunnar R. Emilsson, P.G., P.E.
CDM Federal Programs Corporation
28 North Last Chance Gulch
Helena, MT 59601
phone (406) 495-1414 x302  fax (406) 495-1025
email:  emilssongr at cdm.com



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---