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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Alaskan Smoked Porter Recipe Question: HBD 4352.html#4352-13 (ensmingr)
  Re:  Iron in my well Water ("Mike Sharp")
  ha, I'm a baker too! AND, I've been to Dusseldorf!@ ("jim")
  re: Iron in my well Water ("-S")
  smoked porter (darrell.leavitt)
  8th Annual Music City Music City (johncampbell)
  Fresh Hops off the vine! (JP)
  Stout/ale tap parts (Michael Hartsock)
  batch (D.T.)" <dpeters3@ford.com>
  Saison/Flemish sour brown questions (Chet Nunan)
  Hoppy Halloween Challenge ("Susan Ruud")
  RE: Iron in my well Water ("Martin Brungard")
  using Mr. Beer kits in normal brewing? (Robert Marshall)


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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:00:26 -0400
From: ensmingr <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Alaskan Smoked Porter Recipe Question: HBD 4352.html#4352-13

There's a world of difference between peat-smoked malt (*very* strong; 
can be cloying) and Weyermann beechwood-smoked (mild). I have used 
beechwood-smoked up to 50% of my malt bill, but would suggest 5% or less 
of peat-smoked.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY



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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:44:47 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Iron in my well Water

Ira Edwards asks about Iron in his well Water

I am wondering if there are any treatments I should be aware of that would
be detrimental to my all grain brewing adventures, or if there are any
really easy solutions that the water treatment companies may not want to
tell me...

You probably also have a problem with dissolved manganese, too.

The standard pre-treatment (at least for high purity water systems) where
the feedwater is high in ferrous iron or manganese is a manganese green sand
filter.  They come in a variety of sizes, but like all filters, there is a
maximum flow rate, so get one that's appropriate for your house.  It's about
as easy of a treatment as it gets.  Install it inline. They work basically
like a water softener, but are filled with manganese dioxide (the green
sand), which catalyzes the oxidation of ferrous iron and manganese.  The
ferric iron particles are not soluable, and so they'll be filtered out
mechanically in the bed.

Big systems might use aeration instead, but manganese oxidizes slowly.  In
those types of systems, the ferric particles are mechanically filtered after
aeration does the oxidation.  But for household, the green sand filter is
the way to go.  There are slime producing bacteria that love iron, so
sometimes these things will plug up.  Shock chlorine will zap the bacteria,
but I don't know how that affects the manganese dioxide.

They don't release anything significant downstream, so they're not going to
affect your brewing (except for getting rid of the iron and manganese).

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:17:26 -0400
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: ha, I'm a baker too! AND, I've been to Dusseldorf! at 

Hi John,
saw your post on the HBD. I have a bakery myself, although, different from
your operation.
http://www.sevenstarsbakery.com

Dusseldorf is great. I was there a couple years ago, with another beer
friend. We hit all the breweries in the Altstadt. The best being Zum Eurige.
That beer is heavenly. Tons of hops AND malt. the perfect balance. In the
same area, you can just wander and hit lots of pubs and breweries. they're
pretty easy to find. If I remember right, we had some addresses, but, didn't
really need them. It's a small area, easily traveled on foot. If you need
specifics, I can look them up.

Good luck,
Jim



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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:09:56 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Iron in my well Water

Ira Edwards or Anchorage asks about iron in his water,

>appears to have a iron problem. (ie. everything is stained orange).

That's the give-away - you'll also probably find rust red-orange sediment in
the bottom of the toilet tank and other places where sedimentation can
occur.  If it tastes like rust it's iron..

The commercial laundry product "Iron Out" is useful in the laundry.  There
are several methods of removing iron from drinking and brewery water, but
they vary in their effectiveness and depend on the pH of the water to be
effective.  Many water softeners will remove a few ppm of iron, but add
sodium to the resulting water.  Several removal methods depend on fully
oxidizing the iron ions to Fe3+ then removing the rust as sedimentation or
by filtration.

>I am wondering if there are any treatments I should be aware of that would
>be detrimental to my all grain brewing adventures

Iron is detrimental to brewing so you're already in a hard place.  The water
softener replaces iron (as well as calcium and magnesium) with sodium ions.
Too much sodium isn't good for brewing water either.  Some water softeners
can operate on potassium rather than sodium exchange, but the potassium ions
aren't a good brewing choice at all.   You can oxidize the iron by merely
bubbling air through it (and you may already have the equipment to do this)
but I think the time required will  be longish.  You can also rapidly
oxidize the iron chemically.  I've read 20 minutes with chlorine for
example.   But then you have the not-so-difficult task of removing residual
chlorine and  you'll probably want to use calcium hypochlorite powder (HTH)
rather than the sodium hypochlorite in liquid bleach and measure the amounts
carefully to reduce the chlorine excess you must deal with.

Shallow wells containing iron often become infected with harmless bacteria
that thrive on the energy resulting from the conversion of iron to rust.
Unfortunately these bacteria give off a tremendous sulfur aroma as they
consume relatively innocuous sulfates and release obnoxious smelling H2S.
It's likely not harmful to brewing but it can smell pretty bad from the tap.
The bacteria can be removed with periodic shock chlorination of the well.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:17:10 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: smoked porter

Jeff; I have made 5 gal batches of smoked porter several times, and find 
that 1/2 lb of peated malt is sufficient.  I have increased it to one lb 
and it seemed too much (to me).  This is a subjective thing though...

 ..Darrell




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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:27:09 -0500
From: johncampbell at comcast.net
Subject: 8th Annual Music City Music City

My earlier post to the hbd with all the details bounced with a "too long"
message, so you will have to visit our web site
Cyserman

The Music City Brewers are pleased to announce the 8th Annual Music City
Brew Off October 24th, 25th and 26th.

This email is an invitation to every brewer that can make it to come to our
competition.  We feel that our competition has consistently provided for a
high level of judging competency, and we are once again asking for the
participation of the judging community through out the mid south. With 315
entries for the Memphis Mid-South Fair and over 450 (a new record) for the
Asheville Blue
Ridge Brew Off, both this coming weekend, and part of the Mid South
Homebrewer and Club of the Year Competition as is ours, it looks like we
will need all the help we can get, so try to make it if you can.

Interested judges please contact Jay Sadler at jsadler at bellsouth.net

For a complete set of details on the competition, accommodations and forms,
head to our home page.
To make life easier, all forms may be filled out online at
http://www.musiccitybrewers.com
You only need to enter the brewer's information once for all your beers if
you fill out the PDF version online, and when you fill out the brew
information, it fills out the bottle labels for you. Even if you only have a
few entries, it sure beats filling everything out by hand.

Until next we meet May the hops be with you.
Tom "Hop God" Vista









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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:13:44 -0400
From: JP <homebrewedbeer at adelphia.net>
Subject: Fresh Hops off the vine! 

Hi all!

    I've been a Lurker for years and homebrewing for a little longer! 
=^)) I have grown my own hops for the last 3 years
and this year is my first  year with any real results! I was wondering 
if there is anyone out there that has used fresh hops
off the vine for any part of the boil? I know you're supposed to dry 
them out before using , BUT ! They smell so great!
I was thinking that I should be able to just throw em in the pot! ??

   I would be greatfull for any advice.

Thanks! JP




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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:19:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Stout/ale tap parts

Hello all:

I have a wonderful brass stout tap, the guinness kind
that I picked up for a great price.  It is lacking the
nozzle that screws on the end.  I've never seen the
internal parts of one of these so its hard for me to
say exactly what its missing.  As far as I can tell,
it would be the nozzle and the gaskets (maybe a
restrictor disk?).  

Does Anybody know where I can get replacements parts
for these faucets?  Surely someone must sell them?  I
know these things retail for something like 50-100
dollars, so I'd love to use it!

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:48:05 -0400
From: "Peters, David (D.T.)" <dpeters3 at ford.com>
Subject: batch

I have been reading and looking through the Digest for information on 
batch sparging.  I definately like the time save idea and since I have 
only done one all grain batch this way see the potential time and 
gadget savings.
My experience leads me to a couple questions on the process that I 
didn't see answers to:
1.  Should the 2nd sparge be stirred into the mash?  I would think 
due to compaction and streaming, etc.  this would be required.
2.  Should the 2nd batch sparge be left to dilute the remining 
sugars for a period of time prior to beginning the runoff?

David T. Peters
Northville, MI



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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:58:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: Saison/Flemish sour brown questions

I'm doing some planning on my next two brews & would
appreciate any reccomendations, advice, or opinions
the collective may have. 

1. Saison - Wyeast (seasonal - only avail. till the
compared?  Or used one & have an opinion?

2. Flemish sour - Seems to be 3 methods for developing
the sour flavor:  

Leaving the mash for a few days to sour (Pro - no
infectious stuff in your buckets/kegs, souring is
halted w/the boil, so it doesn't progress too far, and
doesn't require extended aging.  Con - wrong organisms
may develop in the mash and make some really nasty
beer)

Using acidulated/sauer malt - I've never used this,
will it approximate the right flavor profile?  How
much to use in a 5 gal batch?

Using a culture like Wyeasts Roeselare (has anyone
tried this one yet?).  Most authentic, but takes
longer & I'm a bit worried about not getting the
bacteria out of my gear.

Any thoughts would be appreciated! Thanks...

Chet Nunan
Churubusco, IN

 

 



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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:01:06 -0700
From: "Susan Ruud" <susan.ruud at ndsu.nodak.edu>
Subject: Hoppy Halloween Challenge

The Hoppy Halloween Challenge will be held again this year for the 6th year
by the Prairie Homebrewing Companions of Fargo, ND/Moorhead, MN.  All
information can be found on our web page:  http://prairiehomebrewers.org/
Entries Accepted: September 27th - October 10th with the Live Best of Show
on Nov. 1st.  This is a participating competition in the High Plains Brewer
2003 and the Midwest Homebrewer of the Year.  We hope to see you and/or your
beers there!!

Susan Ruud




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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:39:34 -0400
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: RE: Iron in my well Water

Ira Edwards posed a question regarding treatment options for iron treatment
for his water supply.

Based on the anecdotal evidence, iron stains and orange clothing, it appears
that the iron concentration is at least 0.3 mg/l.  The 0.3 mg/l for iron or
0.05 mg/l manganese are threshold concentrations for the production of stains
on plumbing fixtures and clothing.  

My experience in the water treatment industry suggests that three options are
most suited for a household water treatment system for iron removal.  Those
options are: High level chlorination, Greensand Filter, or a Water Softener.

The last option probably elicits a lot of raised eyebrows in the readership.
We all know these units operate by replacing supposedly bad ions (Ca and Mg)
with a "good" one (Na?).  The industry regards this method capable of
treating iron concentrations of up to 3 mg/L.  If the home's water supply has
low Ca and Mg concentrations (soft), then a water softener is not out of the
question.  

The concentration of sodium produced by the softener is about 0.8 mg/L for
every 1 mg/L of either iron or manganese in the feed water.  Since iron and
manganese are usually present at very low concentrations, the sodium
production may not be too much.  Some texts suggest that 100 mg/L is the
upper limit for sodium in brewing water, but it really should be kept well
below 50 mg/L.  

If the water supply is soft, then a water softener may be OK for iron
removal.  One mg/L calcium concentration will produce 1.15 mg/L sodium in the
softened water.  One mg/L magnesium concentration will produce 1.88 mg/L
sodium in the softened water.  You can see that it wouldn't take a very hard
water to produce high sodium levels.  I'll give you an example of what a
softener can do with a moderately hard water such as my own (41 mg/L Ca, 10
mg/L Mg).  The sodium concentration produced in treating this hardness is 66
mg/L.  Obviously, I wouldn't want to use a softener on my water.   

Greensand is another form of a zeolite exchange process, just like the water
softener above.  It uses a manganese dioxide coating on the zeolite grains to
accomplish the iron and manganese removal.  This type of filter is
regenerated with a potassium permanganate solution.  The regeneration can be
performed continuously or intermittently.  In the case of continuous
regeneration, the solution is continuously fed into the filter.  The end
result is that the potassium concentration of the water output will be
increased.  I don't know of an upper limit for potassium concentration in
brewing water, but I doubt that this solution feed will be detrimental to
brewing.  In the intermittent case, the regeneration solution is backwashed
out of the system and it shouldn't affect the output water's potassium
content very much.

The high level chlorination oxidizes the iron and manganese, causing them to
precipitate out.  They are then filtered out with some sort of filter media.
The excess chlorine can then be removed with carbon filtration or aeration.
This process doesn't really affect the ion concentration much.  Even though
hypochlorite is used to produce the high level chlorination, it produces
chlorine and hypochlorite in the water.  Very little of that material ionizes
to chloride ion.  So the effect on the water is minimal with respect to
brewing chemistry.  Of course, the chlorine removal is mandatory for brewing
use!

Another option for iron removal is aeration and filtration, but I doubt that
it is practical for a household system, from a maintenance prospective.  

More than likely, a greensand system would be recommended.  But, a water
softener could be suitable if the water is already soft.  In any case, I
think that this should give Ira what he needs to evaluate treatment options
and their effect on his brewing water.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL 


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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com>
Subject: using Mr. Beer kits in normal brewing?

Hi all,

Quick question. I was over at Beverages & More the
other day and always cruise by their discount table
when doing so. You never know when you can get a good
deal on a closeout, especially their beer and wine.

The had a Mr. Beer ingredient kit on sale. Boy, oh
boy, was it on sale (regularly $34.99 for only 99
cents). Yes, I realize its probably not worth $35, but
I'd bet its probably worth more than a buck.

Has anyone used one of their kits in a regular carboy?
If so, what'd you do? There weren't any instructions
in this kit box.

Later,

Robert


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