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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  thinking of moving to the basement.. ("jim")
  the missing WMDs ... (ensmingr)
  question about adding lactose post ferment (John Schnupp)
  re: hop back (Dane Mosher)
  Beer Captured (rickdude02)
  Splenda (Fred Johnson)
  RE: Hop back ("Sven Pfitt")
  Help ("Doug A Moller")
  RE: Beer Captured, Schlenkerla (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
  sweetener/diet,  hot wort and air ("Dave Burley")
  Looking for hydrometers (Jason Henning)
  Re: Storing propagated Morland's yeast (Kevin Wagner)
  Stuck mash ("Brian Schar")
  New brewery ("Mike Eyre")
  Cloning Duchesse de Bourgogne ("Raj B. Apte")
  Difference between Ale and Lager (tebird)
  Top Pressure Carbonation, and Reno NV (james ray)
  brew pumps (Ralph Link)
  Ethanol (Jay Hellhound)


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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:57:34 -0400
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: thinking of moving to the basement..

I'd like to move my rims into the basement and am looking for pros/cons. I
plan on building a full brewery down there. Drain. sink. a friend builds
vents for restaurants, so, I plan on having him do a kick ass hood. What are
the concerns that I need to know about? I'll be converting to Natural gas.

thanks,
Jim



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:00:52 -0400
From: ensmingr <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: the missing WMDs ...

Ever wonder where those missing WMDs got to? A George Will column from 
June 22 (2003) suggests an answer 
(<http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/gw20030622.shtml>):

"... Such destruction need not have been a huge task. Says [James] 
Woolsey [President Clinton's first CIA director]. Chemical or biological 
weapons could have been manufactured with minor modifications of a 
fertilizer plant, or in a plant as small as a microbrewery attached to a 
restaurant."

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr





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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:07:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: question about adding lactose post ferment

After a long hiatus from brewing (almost two years), I'm finally going to get
down and do something about it.  Seems like there is always something competing
for my time so I'm going to knock out an extract batch.  I'm thinking a stout.

I keg in 3 gallon kegs so a 10 gallon batch would be perfect.  My thoughts are
to ferment this out as a basic stout and then at kegging time add some lactose
to one keg for a cream/sweet stout and then some liquid smoke to the other for
a smoked stout.

I've successfully, to the tune of a third place ribbon, used liquid smoke in
the past.  For me the secret is to use a little.  There's no way I'd try and
make something like a rauchbier with liquid smoke but just a touch for a light
smoky hint works great.

My question is more about adding the lactose.  I've always added it during the
boil and fermented it.  I know that it really isn't fermentable so I'm thinking
I could boil a solution for 15-20 minutes and add it like I used to add the
priming sugar when I was bottling.  Any input/advise on this?

Thanks,




=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:25:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: hop back

> Is a hop back with an unsealed lid a good choice?

I wouldn't count on steam being a good oxygen barrier,
as it is not heavier than air the way CO2 is.  But I
personally wouldn't worry about HSA from a hopback as
long as flow was gentle.  
  
I use a sealed hop back from Precision Brewing Systems
(possibly no longer in business).  It works great in
filtering out hot break and spent hops, but
surprisingly I haven't noticed any significant gain in
hop aroma or flavor from it.  Its capacity is probably
too small (1.5 oz) for that effect on my 10 gal
system.  Don't underestimate how much space an ounce
of leaf hops occupies!  I wish mine could hold twice
as much.

Dane Mosher
Fort Worth, TX



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:35:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: rickdude02 at earthlink.net
Subject: Beer Captured

I simply have to post this due to the negative 
comments on the subject book.  Honestly, I 
only used it once (it's not my book), but my 
results were very good.  But let me tell you 
the whole story, 'cos my experience isn't 
exactly cut 'n dried.

It was for one of our club's Big Brew (that is, 
we brew 10 - 20 gallons, either for an event 
or distribution to members).  We were 
brewing 10 gallons of barley wine for our 
Christmas party later that year.  I (the 
brewmaster for this one-- we rotate that 
responsibility) decided I wanted something 
that met in-between Old Foghorn and Bigfoot.  
I didn't have the inclination (or maybe the 
time, or maybe both) to sit down and work 
it all out myself, so I borrowed a buddy's 
Clone Brews and Beer Captured.  

Incidentally, those books do have instructions 
for all-grain and partial mash brews, although 
they're in sidebars.  Seemed odd to me, 
because usually it goes the other way around; 
the recipe is all-grain, and there's a sidebar 
for the extract conversion.

Anyway, using the two recipes and my own 
brewing sense, we produced a beer that was 
almost exactly what I was looking for.  The 
recipes certainly made sense for those two 
beers, but I don't know if they would have 
turned out true Old Foghorn or Bigfoot clones 
if I'd simply made those recipes.

The buddy that I borrowed the books from has 
made a number of the recipes, and those that 
I have tasted have been quite good.  His Old 
Rasputin clone was great... although not a 
perfect replica of Old Rasputin.  I guess my 
point is that I think they have merit in terms 
of helping you to produce good beers, although 
I can't speak to them producing true clones.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.


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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:20:18 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Splenda

Steve suggested that Splenda may not be suitable for beer because it is 
unstable at beer pH. For what it's worth, Splenda is also available as 
a 25% (w/w) aqueous concentrate (also containing potassium sorbate and 
sodium benzoate!) at pH 4.20-4.60. That sounds pretty close to the pH 
of beer. Anyone know more about the lability of Splenda with regard to 
pH?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:49:08 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Hop back

Kevin McDonough Ponders HSAvs unsealed hopbacks.

>B3 sells a hop back, but the lid does not seal.  I've read that you need to 
>have a sealed lid to prevent O2 from mixing with the hot wort.  If that is 
>true, would running the hot wort through the B3 hop back result in HSA (I'm 
>not that concerned about HSA in general, but am just curious)?  Or would 
>the hot steam force prevent the outside O2 from entering the hop back, sort 
>of the same way that CO2 in the fermenter prevents O2 from touching the 
>wort?
>
>The other thing I wonder about having a hop back lid that doesn't seal is 
>that the aromatic oils from the hops would escape.  What are your thoughts? 
>  Is a hop back with an unsealed lid a good choice?

1) All air in the hopback when the lid is put on is available for HSA.
2) If the lid makes a reasonable closure, there will be little air exchange 
ohter than air pulled in if the level of liquid falls, and pushed out as the 
livel rises.

So the question that needs to be answered is how consistent is the flow of 
wort through the hopback.

It would seem to me to be no worse thant using a grant if there is not a lot 
of tutbulance in the licquid in the hopback.

Probably doesn't answer your question, but you did ask for my 
thoughts..........

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:25:13 -0500
From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com>
Subject: Help

Hi I am in need of help wiring up 2 double float liquid level switch's. One
of them for filling and one for emptying. I have relays for the float
switches and a capacitor for each. I want to put the relay and capacitor in
a electrical box with a switch for "on", "auto" and "off" settings. I have
power cords to wire in that allow me to plug whatever pump I want to it.
Like the ones used on the homebrew thermostats to plug your refrigeration
into!

Doug A Moller
Brewmaster
Oklahoma Brewing Ltd Co
brewmaster at intergate.com
20301 Palomino Way
Macomb, OK 74852-8808
405-226-3111



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:48:17 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Beer Captured, Schlenkerla

I figured I'd chime in on the discussion concerning the book "Beer
Captured" and the cloning of Aecht Schlenkerla Rauchbier since this is
one of my all time favorite beers.

I've made a few attempts to clone Schlenkerla Maerzen, with quite
variable results. My first attempt used 94% Weyermann's Bamberg malt and
6% Dark Munich malt, with a mash schedule of 30 min  at  131F followed by
60 min  at  151F. This one was about as smoky as Schlenkerla, but didn't
come close to the level of maltiness. As a result, it seemed out of
balance to the smoky side. The second one I scaled back the rauchmalt to
40%, with 40% weyermann's pilsner & 20% dark munich, with the same mash
schedule. This one had a better malt profile, though still not enough,
but was too light on the smokiness. My third batch used 60% rauchmalt,
20% dark munich, and 20% pilsner, with a similar mash schedule.
Surprisingly, this one was less smoky than batch 2. I think that the new
bag of rauchmalt was quite a bit less smoky than the first bag I had
bought and used for the first two batches. If Weyermann's rauchmalt is
inconsistent from batch to batch then you need to include that factor in
any attempt at cloning this beer. I used Munich Lager yeast in all three
batches. All 3 batches were a bit lighter in color than Schlenkerla.

I've judged the smoked beer category of the nationals the last few
years, and none of the classic rauchbier style entries have come very
close to the standard. I would think that to successfully clone this
beer you need to first concentrate on attaining the proper level of
maltiness of the base style (Maerzen), which might necessitate a
decoction mash or the use of melanoidin malt. Once this is achieved you
can tune the level of smokiness that will balance the malt character,
and you might need to save some of your rauchmalt to compare to the next
new bag you get, and use the comparison results to adjust your rauchmalt
percentage accordingly. 

FWIW, my next batch will be (using 75% system efficiency), batch
sparging:

76% Weyermann's Rauchmalt (if the new malt is about the same as the old
 - otherwise adjusting up or down about 10%).
20% Weyermann's Munich Dark
4% Caramunich 75
WLP833 Bock yeast (Ayinger)

132-148-158-168 mash schedule for 15-45-45-10 minutes, using decoctions
to raise the temps.

Shooting for 1.055 OG, 26 ibu using Mittelfruh, 14 srm.

I should be getting started on this one in the next few months.

Thanks,

Steve Jones
Senior Systems Analyst, Eastman Chemical Company 
e-Commerce Applications & Services
email: stjones at eastman.com  Phone: +1 423.229.3430
Mobile: +1 423.292.1813 Fax: +1 423.224.0314



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:34:14 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: sweetener/diet,  hot wort and air

Brewsters:

All this stuff about malto-dextrin not being calorific and not a sugar ( I
think that is the implication) may be OK if you are a yeast but our fine
complex digestive systems even use starch, so you have to count the calories
of the malto dextrin even if it is, theoretically, not  a simple sugar.

Also I deeply doubt the arithmetic that a few grams of sweetener in whatever
form will cause you to gain or lose weight.  I once read that if the body
behaved in this way that eating one carrot more a day than your calorie
utilization would cause you to gain 600 pounds in a lifetime. Obviously, it is
about time to redo our 18th century based thinking about diets.

Biggest problem ( and there are many) with the calorie /weight gain theory is
that it does not take into acccount how much of ingested calories are
eliminated without being utilized.  To get  a  true reading on this you have
to measure how many calories go in and how many go out and how many are burned
to get the equation to balance.  I don't know of any diet plans that do this.
Not very appetising thoughts but don't ignore it. I suspect the whole theory
of dieting would change if this were taken into account.

It may also have something to do with the success of the Atkins diet in which
the protein diet is difficult to digest so passes through the digestive system
without being absorbed as  mcuh as well as it requires more energy per
calories released.
- ----------------------------
Hot wort in contact with air is a real beer spoiler.  Don't do it under any
circumstance. Also keep your boiling kettle partially covered so the steam
pushes away any air.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:00:37 -0400
From: Jason Henning <jason at thehennings.com>
Subject: Looking for hydrometers

I'm looking for two types of hydrometers. The first one has a range of 
1.000 to 1.070 and the second one has a range of 0.980 to 1.020. The brew 
shop that I had bought these at has closed. I would appreciate any help 
finding a brew shop that carries these.

Cheers,
Jason Henning



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:03:34 -0700
From: Kevin Wagner <kevin.wagner at watchmark.com>
Subject: Re: Storing propagated Morland's yeast

Chris asks how he can store his yeast for a month or two.

Create slants. Here is a good step by step:

http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer/slantuse.html

 -K


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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:34:34 -0700
From: "Brian Schar" <bschar at cardica.com>
Subject: Stuck mash

Yesterday was one of those brew 
days where everything 
that can go wrong did go
wrong.  I won't bore you 
with my boilover (at least 
it was in the driveway and I
could hose it down) or my 
lackluster yeast starter 
(my kitchen was too cold),
among other issues.  The 
biggest hassle was my stuck mash.  
This was my third
all-grain batch, and the 
first one that stuck.

I was brewing a 10-gallon 
batch of stout; the total 
grain bill was 18.5 pounds
mashed in an Igloo 10-gallon 
cooler with a Bazooka strainer 
for wort collection. 
I've mashed more grain than 
this in the same tun without 
incident.  As far as I
can tell, the cause of my 
problem boils down (pun 
intended) to two possible
sources: the use of Maris 
Otter malt, and the use 
of 1 pound of flaked wheat for
head retention.  It was 
the first time for both.  
I suspect it was the wheat,
due to the presence of little 
granules about 0.5 mm in diameter 
in the mash tun
that I hadn't seen before.  
I had the flaked wheat crushed 
with the grain, which
I believe created those particles 
that in turn may have stuck my 
mash.  Dumb
question #1: when using flaked 
wheat, should I crush it?

In the future I'll be adding 
rice hulls to my mash to help 
prevent this.  Dumb
question #2: do you put all 
the rice hulls at the bottom 
of the mash tun, or mix
them evenly throughout 
the grist?

Any help is greatly appreciated.  
Future mashes will thank you.

Brian Schar
Belmont, CA




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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:28:10 -0400
From: "Mike Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: New brewery

Hello all!

I've got a few questions I'm sure are easy, but I just don't have the
answer to..couldn't find it on the net anywhere. Any site suggestions
would be welcome. First, the basis of my questions is that I'm upgrading
my brewery. I had a bunch of pots on the stove for heating strike water,
a converted coleman cooler for a mashtun and a converted keg for a
boiler for the old setup.. And my new setup is going to be a 3 tier
gravity feed all converted keg arrangement. I've got everything done
except for the final tigntening of the gas lines from the propane tank,
and the plumbing for the kegs, which I'm working on now. All kegs have
their own burner. Questions are as follows:

1. I've always seen and heard of the milled grain having the strike
water added to it, rather than the other way around. My question is in
regards to the plumbing setup.. I can easily heat the strike water in
the mash vessle and add the grain to the water, or I can heat the strike
water from the top kettle and add that to the dry grain in the mashtun.
Right now I've only got a sprinkler setup coming from the top vessel to
sparge the mash.. I don't have a way to pre-measure the strike water,
because I didn't put a sight gage on the HLT.. I can do that in the
future, but I just don't have one right now. It's easy enough to measure
out the water in the mash tun itself, heat it, then add the grains to it
and dough in.. Is that "wrong"?? Will this afect anything? It's a lot
easier and less costly (less plumbing and valves and stuff, etc..) to do
it this way, but I'll change my setup if I have to. 

2. From the internet and my own little bit of testing, I've made the
mashtun with a circular pipe with a lot of holes drilled in it, instead
of slots like my old copper tube mash strainer. I definitely wanted a
manifild instead of a false bottom, because I don't want any dead space
in the mash that I can't get to with a spoon to stir. Anyone have any
experience with a bunch-of-holes-in-a-pipe mash ring manifold?
Experiences with using it?

3. This single flare soft copper tubing is a bear to get to seal for the
propane lines.. Any advise on how to make these tools work better, or
some such, to get the hang of this deal?




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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cloning Duchesse de Bourgogne

All,

I would like to clone the Verhaeghe Duchesse de
Bourgogne, my favorite flemish red. Thus far I have
come pretty close to Rodenbach using Wheeler and
Protz's recipe and cultures from the bottom of NBB La
Folie in an oak cask. The two flavor components of the
Duchesse that are different to me are the 'balsamic'
and the sweetness. Blending a bit of licorice into a
finished bottle of my Rodenbach-clone gets pretty
close to the Duchesse, including the aftertaste that
many think is from artificial sweetener. It doesn't
give the 'balsamic' notes

1. Do you think its possible that licorice is used in
making Duchesse de Bourgogne? Belgians use spices, and
licorice is common in stout, but ....

2. Anyone have any better ideas on cloning? I'm
guessing that starting from my Rodenbach process, a
very long boil might give more of the 'balsamic'
notes. On the malt bill, the color suggests increasing
the chocolate malt to, maybe, 500gm. Any other ideas?


thanks,

Raj B. Apte
Palo Alto 



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:58:06 -0500
From: tebird at centurytel.net
Subject: Difference between Ale and Lager

Yesterday at our usual Sunday afternoon beer and football 
neighborhood meeting I had an experience I would like help settling 
from all the experts at this forum.  I have been homebrewing for 
about 2 years and always believed that the difference between ale 
beer and lager beer is the type yeast used in fermentation.  Ale 
yeast being a top fermenting and lager being bottom fermenting. As 
we were talking one young lady in the group told us she has a boss 
in Austin that home brews and brought some beer to work that he 
told them had a alcohol content of about 12% ABV.  I told her I 
believed it would be an imperial stout or barley wine though it could 
be other beer styles.  I was at that time told by a, dare I mention it, 
Bud regional sales person that it was a Ale. I said it could be but did 
not have to be.  He said it HAD to be an ale because anything over 
5.5% ABV was an ale while under 5.5% was a lager.  I told him he 
was wrong and he bet me $100 that he was right.  OK, am I 
completely off? I hate to be wrong but will admit it if I am. Thanks 
to all.

Thomas Bird
San Marcos TX. 


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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:45:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: james ray <jnjnmiami at yahoo.com>
Subject: Top Pressure Carbonation, and Reno NV

I followed the thread on top pressure carbonation as I
read a weeks worth of HBD's ( I've been away ) hoping
some one would catch what I saw in the original post. 
I think that what Todd Ashmann was getting at was that
top[ pressure is better than the alternative and the
norm in most breweries and that is bottom pressure
through a carbonating stone.  I think that the stone
could stir up the fermenter and prevent the yeast from
clearing as quickly as with top pressure.  I have
always tried to catch the tail end of fermentation to
start carbonating a beer and then to apply additional
pressure while crashing the fermenter.  I usually only
have to make minor adjustments in the carbonation
after filtering.  

On another note I will be road tripping to Reno NV
this weekend.  Could anyone recommend any local
brewpubs and since we will be towing a trailer any 
beer stores.

Jamie Ray
Rjraybrewer at aol.com
Montgomery, AL
Formerly of Titanic Brewing Co.
Miami, FL



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:04:31 -0500
From: Ralph Link <ralphl at shaw.ca>
Subject: brew pumps

Can anyone give me information regarding where to purchase or get
information on brew pumps.  Is Moving Brews still in business? What are
the RIMS people using these days? Private email is great. 
Thanks 
Ralph Link 



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:21:40 -0400
From: Jay Hellhound <whiplash at juno.com>
Subject: Ethanol

Hey guys, I was poking around trying to find the chemical composition (or
whatever it is you call things like "H2O") of Ethanol and sometimes I see
it as CH3CH2OH and sometimes I see it as ETOH. I realize this is a
potentially very complex question but which one is the accepted way to
represent the type of alcohol that comprises the bulk of the alcohol that
you would generally find in beer? Is ETOH just an abbreviation?


Jay,
Rehab Homebrewing
Walpole MA 02081



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