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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Dr. Cone Comments-Aeration ("Rob Moline")
  Formaldahyde, Aspertame, heaadaches? ("Sven Pfitt")
  Re: Commercial additives... (Larry Bristol)
  Re: Brussels ("Peter Flint Jr.")
  Re: Bottling yeast for lambic (John Landreman)
  Sealing kegs for fermenting ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Formaldehyde, sulfites and additives, Florida Diet report ("Dave Burley")
  Keg Purging ("Mike Sharp")
  Off-topic: Aspartame and Diets (Robert Sandefer)
  National Call to Action on Flavored Malt Beverages ("Paul Gatza")
  RE: kegging question (again) (Bill Tobler)
  more calories for the homebrew diet ("-S")


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:41:19 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Comments-Aeration

			Dr. Cone Comments-Aeration
Rob,
    Here are a few comments regarding O2 and aeration of yeast that should
give some guidance to O2 and aeration requirements. 
    Sterols and Fatty Acids keep the yeast cell walls soft and fluid.  This
allows the yeast to bud during the growth phase of the fermentation.  It
also allows the transport systems to bring nutrients into the cell and
by-products out of the cell. Near the end of the fermentation it
protects the yeast from alcohol toxicity. Without adequate sterols and
Fatty Acids the cell wall becomes leathery and slows down and even stops
the transport in and out of the cell.  Alcohol is produced faster that
it can be transported out of the cell thus stressing and even killing
the yeast.
    Yeast produces 'squalene', the precursor of sterols and Fatty Acids,
with out O2.  It must have oxygen to move the squalene to the next stage
which is sterols and fatty acids.

    Lallemand produces the Active Dry Beer yeast under very aerobic
conditions, lots of O2, and packs the maximum amount of sterols and
Fatty Acids into each cell. When the yeast is pitched into the anaerobic
wort, they will multiply and share the sterols and Fatty Acids with the
daughter cells. They can multiply 3,4 and sometimes 5 times before they
become deficient in sterol and Fatty Acids. The cell wall becomes
leathery and the yeast cannot multiply any more.  The cell becomes
stressed as the alcohol level builds up. This should present no problem
with brewing 3,4 and 5% alcohol beer. It could be a problem as you move
up to 8,9 and 10+% alcohol beer. The larger the pitching rate of the dry
yeast, the less of a problem it will be.  The smaller the pitching rate
the more of a problem it will be.
    Repitching a yeast that has not been aerated during the previous
fermentation can be a problem unless the yeast receives O2.
Clayton Cone
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:57:36 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Formaldahyde, Aspertame, heaadaches?

I've heard the Formaldahyde in beer legend for at least 30 years. The beer 
varries from time to time.

The first time I heard it was in Columbia SC around 1969 while I was in HS. 
The claim was that PBR had formaldahyde in it and that is what made it taste 
nasty (when we drank it out of the trunk of a car in the May heat, without 
icing it down? duh). Over the years I've heard it was also in Rhingold 
Chug-a-Mug, Bush, Bud,  beer from Viet-nam and  others.

I put this in the same ranking as Bock beer is made from the dredges of the 
fermenters when they clean them out once a year. I last heard this six 
months ago from someone who claimed their uncle worked for one of the major 
beer companies and this uncle assured said person that this was true. I 
didn't try to argue with him since it was obvious that it would get me 
nowhere with him. Some people are like that.

The comment about aspertame breaking down into formaldahyde with similar 
results from methanol may explain why I get a nasty headache and feel like I 
have a hangover if I consume food/drinks with aspertame in them. From what I 
have found, about 3% of the population is sensitive to aspertame in this 
manner. By the way, there was a really interesting show on PBS many years 
ago about Aspertame. It was rejected by the FDA the first time it was 
submitted for approval. Probably not surprising since I suspect this is not 
unulual. However the comments by the rep for the company that was getting 
the approval was interesting. When they finally got it approved, the 
representative made a statement to the effect of :

"We spent X-Million dollars proving that aspertame is safe for human 
consumption."

No mention was made of how much money they spent trying to find any negative 
effects from it.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: 15 Oct 2003 08:48:44 -0500
From: Larry Bristol <Larry at DoubleLuck.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial additives...

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:42:26 -0500, Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
wrote:
> I can't speak to the accuracy of that particular adjunct, but I can say 
> that I have seen the adjunct survey that was issued to commercial 
> breweries a few years back and among the 100+ things that *aren't* 
> malt, hops, yeast and water was urea!  As my brewer friend likes to 
> joke... He thought that was just a story about how light beer was made!

YAUL [Yet Another Urban Legend], Bev?

Below is a reference containing an actual recipe for Budmillors, so you
can clone this product for yourself.  It contains the definitive answer
to this puzzling question:

http://www.doubleluck.com/things/brewery/recipes/Budmilloors.php

- ----
Larry Bristol
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:27:51 -0400
From: "Peter Flint Jr." <peterflint at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Brussels

Others may be able to provide more details since it's been a while, 
but when I was there are few years ago I went to a brewer's guild 
brewing museum right in the center of town that had an enjoyable tour 
and included a glass of beer at the end of it.  This may have been 
all the more enjoyable since it was about ten in the morning and I 
had just gotten off the plane and was waiting for my hotel room to be 
ready.  Nothing like a bit of beer to shake off the jet lag.

Also the cafe/bar Mort Subite was worth a visit too for their kriek. 
It was pretty sublime.  I don't think they make it themselves, but I 
think they do blend it themselves which apparently is almost as much 
an art as the brewing process.

Happy trails!

Peter


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:17:04 -0600 (MDT)
From: John Landreman <jlandrem at cso.atmel.com>
Subject: Re: Bottling yeast for lambic

Chad Stevens asks "So how do y'all bottle your lambics?  Kraeusen at bottling?"

I've bottled two lambics. Each time I simply primed with sugar like a normal
beer. No added yeast. Even though both beers spent over 18 months in the 
fermenter they carbonated eventually, although they did take a little longer
than usual.

John Landreman
Colorado Springs, CO



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:18:40 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Sealing kegs for fermenting

Jay's comment about sealing up kegs with a blast of pressure brought up a 
question that I have had:

At 12:27 AM 10/15/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Side note - I
>always initially pressurize my newly-full kegs to about 35 or 40 psi to seal
>them up.  You can hear the poppets and such go <pink!>.  Then I hook up
>normal carb pressure and wait a week.  No leaks...

How do those of you who ferment in corny's get them to seal?  I have found 
that it is hit or miss whether I get any bubbling out my airlock or whether 
the CO2 from fermentation just leaks out through the unseated poppets or 
lid...

thanks,
Mike
monterey, ca 



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:20:43 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Formaldehyde, sulfites and additives, Florida Diet report

Brewsters,

I recall that formaldehyde was used at least some decades ago in malting
activites, but I suspect that is no longer the case with the "evidence" that
it causes cancer.

Dane Mosher, Papain is used to reduce cold haze in beer and isn't a stabilizer
in the biological sense.

I wonder about your assertion that Bud and others use sulfites in beer. Do you
have  a reference?  I believe sulfites in beer is illegal in Britain and has
been for decades. Can't imagine the US didn't follow suit.

There is, of course, no evidence that sulfites cause headaches. Sulfites
concentration in white wines are typically higher than in reds, yet people
complaining of headaches when drinking red wine typically can drink white
wines without a problem.  The problem seems to be a protein in some red wines.
The urban myth that sulfites causes headaches seems to have been a result of
beverage labelling laws.

Ascorbic acid used to prevent oxidation in a beer that is under CO2 pressure?
Likewise, do you have  a reference?
- --------------------------
With regard to sulfites and wine making, above all don't skip sulfite
additions ( 30 ppm ) at bottling and each time you rack a quiet wine.  Oxygen
will ruin your wine.
- --------------------------
Pete Calinski reports on a Florida diet study in which low Carbers ate 300
cals more a day than low Fatters and still lost equivalent amounts of weight.
It doesn't surprise me, as protein requires more energy to digest than
carbohydrates, takes more time, so not as much is absorbed before elimination.
ergo less <available> calories to the eater in the digestion of non-carbs than
might be expected from the simple calorie tables.

  I do not subscribe to the hypothesis ( suggested by one of the participants)
that a calorie is not  a calorie. I do believe in Thermodynamics, just that
the human digestion system and calorie utilization is not simple.

Concerns about consuming artery clogging cholesterol on the Atkins diet seem
to be dissipating with actual experiments being done in which blood lipids
appear lower on the Atkins diet.

Since calcium is a major part of the arterial placque, I wonder about all
these high calcium pills people take?? Anyone know of  a study which relates
blood calcium levels and arterial placque?

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:15:31 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Keg Purging

My advice on ridding kegs of O2, assuming you've not done the "fill with
sanitized water and push it out with CO2" thing is to cycle purge the empty
keg (or the headspace, if you simply cannot fill through the liquid tube.  I
usually secondary in a corny, so I transfer from the "liquid out" of the the
secondary to the "liquid out" of the serving keg, having already purged the
serving keg.  Cycle purging involves pressurizing and venting the keg.  I do
it to the empty waiting keg.  Pressurize as high as my regulator will go
(about 50 psi), and vent to atmospheric.   Repeat 5 or 6 times.  This is
easy to do if you have a manifold on your CO2 with valves on each line, and
a main shutoff valve for the manifold, but you can do it simply with a
single gas disconnect on the corny (a spare disconnect with no hose on it
works to vent.  Swap disconnects back and forth).

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:52:26 -0400
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Off-topic: Aspartame and Diets

I apologize for this off-topic post but I just can't stand it any longer:

First, aspartame is a dipeptide (two amino acids bonded together). How 
exactly does a protein (at least in a basic sense of the word) "release" 
methanol?

If aspartame can do so, then why don't steaks, eggs, and head-retention 
proteins?

I have heard this rumor before and I have yet to see any evidence of its 
veracity.

Second, the diet discussion (besides getting boring) is ill-named. No 
respected or respectable doctor or dietician would put someone on a "diet" 
in the common sense of the word as it implies a short-term change in food 
choice. I believe the preferred method is to alter permanently eating and 
exercise habits, which will lead to a healthy life over an extended time 
period.

With this in mind, the major problem I have always heard with the high- 
protein, low-carbohydrate diets is the high ingestion of cholesterol and 
fats. Both of which have been linked to heart disease, which is a big 
enough problem as is. I think many doctors find it difficult to accept the 
ingestion of more cholesterol and fat will lead to less heart disease 
problems (although I seem to remember one study saying something along 
those lines).

As to the study Pete Calinski wrote about, the findings (if properly 
reported by the Wall Street Journal) do not seem as inexplicable as the 
quotes make out when one realizes that amino acids are not stored by the 
body while glucose is. The body stores excess glucose in glycogen and fat. 
Amino acids on the other hand are used to build needed enzymes, structural 
proteins, etc, and extras are burned for energy, stored in fat, or 
excreted.

The high-protein diets, by relying on amino acids for energy (instead of 
carbohydrates), are probably relying on the excretion of excess amino 
acids. This mechanism simply isn't open to glucose (at least from what I 
can find in my biology and biochemistry textbooks).

Now can we please talk about beer?

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:51:39 -0600
From: "Paul Gatza" <Paul at aob.org>
Subject: National Call to Action on Flavored Malt Beverages

Hi all. The U.S. Treasury Department's Tax and Trade Bureau is nearing the
October 21st comment deadline on proposed regulations for flavored malt
beverages. The current standard allows for a "beer" to be made with 99
percent of the source of alcohol to come from spirits addition, with a
minimum of alcohol coming from malt fermentation. The proposed standard would
limit the addition of spirits to be 10 percent of the alcohol in the final
product. The Association of Brewers is participating in a coalition with
three industry groups to help generate comments to support the proposed
regulations. We need your help to send an email, fax or letter to the Tax and
Trade Bureau (TTB). Please visit http://www.beertown.org/fmb.html for the
full information on the issue, positions and a sample letter. Your email to
the TTB does not have be as lengthy as the sample. The email address for your
comments is mailto:nprm at ttb.gov.

The last time beer was defined by the federal government, the Confederacy had
the upper hand in the Civil War, so the stakes are pretty big. Thanks to
everyone who shoots off a quick email. 

Paul Gatza
Director
Association of Brewers
736 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO 80302
paul at aob.org
ph:  +1.303.447.0816 ext. 122
fax: +1.303.447.2825
www.beertown.org

 

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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:25:58 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: kegging question (again)

Greg said,
"Quick question:
Say I brewed a batch of beer, that after racking/etc came out
to be around 3.5-4 gallons.  I want to keg it in a 5 gallon
keg.  I know there is a problem with having too much oxygen on
top of the beer.  What I'd like to know is, would it be ok to
blow CO2 through the liquid valve on my ball-lock keg, and let
air out of the gas valve?  Would this work?"

Then I said,

"Greg, sense the vapor space on top of the beer is air, bubbling CO2 up from
the bottom of the keg would just aerate the wort, IMO.  A better way would
be Dave Burley's method of filling a clean keg up with boiled and cooled
water, then pushing it out with CO2 and racking your beer to the keg through
the liquid out tap."

I'm not sure what I was thinking at the moment, but I'm sure Greg is not
bubbling CO2 up through his beer.  He is just trying to purge the tank of
air.  I'd claim too much homebrew, but I wrote it at 5AM, and was getting
ready for work.  What the heck, I'll blame it on too much homebrew anyway.

I think, and others will back me up, that just purging your keg with CO2
does not do a very good job of removing the air.  The CO2 mixes up too good.
Even a very small O2 PPM number could cause problems.  If you drink up your
beer quickly, it's probably not an issue.

We have our homebrew club meeting tonight.  Octoberfest night.  Good German
beer, music, brats and sauerkraut.  (I made Jeff's German soft pretzels last
year, and they were a hit.)  Looking forward to a good time.  See ya!!

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:26:07 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: more calories for the homebrew diet

Pete Calinski writes,

>Study Upsets Idea That All Calories---WSJ Article

I'm not casting aspersions on the research which  determined a low carb
dieter could eat more calories and still lose weight, but the WSJ article
failed to note that Ms.Greene's research was funded by the Atkins
organization.

That certainly doesn't mean the result is wrong or biased, but it should
give extra incentive to withhold judgement till this very unusual result on
a very small number of subjects has been replicated independently.  At the
very least till the result is published in a peer reviewed journal, not a
press release.

===

If you are looking for a caloric loophole with a little more data behind it
how about this one.  It seems that alcohol is not producing the expected
number of calories in test subjects !  The shortfall is considerable -
15-20%.   The current theory is that the impact of alcohol on the liver
drives fat catabolism to a very inefficient state.   It also appears that
this calorie deficit does not occur in folks on a low fat diet !   If you
want  to save a (a very few) calories lose the low-fat diet and have a beer.

Unfortunately a long term large sample size study in the UK shows that
alcohol consumption in any form >30gm/day leads to overweight. Apparently
the body does not reduce calories from other sources in response to alcohol
calorie consumption.

 -S



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