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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Cold pitching of yeast (John Palmer)
  Commercial additives... (Bev Blackwood II)
  Re: Visiting Vancouver ("Keith Lemcke")
  re: commercial beer additives (Dane Mosher)
  formaldehyde stuff (ensmingr)
  re:  pumpkin ale/chocolate stout (Dane Mosher)
  RE: kegging question (Bill Tobler)
  RE: Commercial Beer Additives (Michael Hartsock)
  Study Upsets Idea That All Calories---WSJ Article ("Pete Calinski")
  aerating dried yeast / kegging ("Jay Spies")
  Re: Gravity samples, decarbonating (Christopher Swingley)
  sulfites ("Mike Racette")
  Brussels ("Kerry and Dell Drake")
  Re: Kegging Question/Keg purging ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Bottling yeast for lambic ("Chad Stevens")


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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:37:16 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Cold pitching of yeast

Hi Group,
I was participating in the Chat group at Homebrew Adventures on Sunday 
night and one of the guys asked about the practice of pitching yeast 
that had been stored cold to the (fermentation temp) wort, saying that 
he had heard that it performed well or showed (an improvement).
It was the first I had heard of it. I believe he said that Mitch Steele 
espoused it on the AOB forum.
I read Steve's post tonight on Bass Ale practice (ne Bouton & Quain) 
and thought perhaps that was were the thread originated from.  Anyone 
else heard of this or have some references? In general it seems 
counter-intuitive, but there are probably a set of circumstances where 
it is useful. I would like to understand the context better.

Thansk,
John

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:42:26 -0500
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Commercial additives...

>  "Joe Berardino" <misbrewhaven at hotmail.com> notes:
> The guy that I was talking with stated that Budweiser uses 
> formaldehyde in their
> products.

I can't speak to the accuracy of that particular adjunct, but I can say 
that I have seen the adjunct survey that was issued to commercial 
breweries a few years back and among the 100+ things that *aren't* 
malt, hops, yeast and water was urea!  As my brewer friend likes to 
joke... He thought that was just a story about how light beer was made!

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:21:04 -0700
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Re: Visiting Vancouver

Vancouver beer spots (all within walking distance in the downtown core):

Steamworks in Gastown - terrific view, next to the Seabus terminal (a cheap,
can't miss touristy thing to do), neat area with fun shops during the day
(scuzzy at night)

Yaletown Brewing on Mainland in Yaletown - most popular brewpub in the city,
cheap beer & pizzas on Sunday, good food (most places in Vancouver have good
food)

DIX at 871 Beatty - My local place, specialize in barbeque, cask night one
Saturday a month, rocks on nights when the local sports teams play in town

Dockside on Granville Island - excellent area, German brewer, surrounded by
the waterfront in Vancouver's busiest tourist attraction


Liquor store is at Alberni & Thurlow, get your hotel to check the hours as
these are government stores that sometimes close early. You might see some
imports that you can't get in Florida, but the ones you have not yet tried
will probable be the B.C. stuff, which is good if not overly demanding.
There are some excellent restaurants here which aren't beer-centered, but
our food is so fresh here (and there is lots of competition) that it would
be a waste not to try a good (expensive) restaurant like Lumiere.


Have fun. Bring an umbrella, just in case.

Keith at Siebel Institute



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:45:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: commercial beer additives

>The guy that I was talking with stated that Budweiser
uses formaldehyde in their products.

And dark beer is made by collecting the sludge at the
bottom of the tanks, right?  :-)

Relax, there's no formaldehyde in American beer.  I
once heard this rumor about Mexican beers too, and
that's also false.

There is a shred of truth behind the rumor though. 
Formaldehyde has been shown to improve colloidal
stability of beer when added to the mash.  (Less than
0.1% persists into the beer.)  I can't say for sure
that formaldehyde is not used anywhere, but I'm
certain (based on conversations with instructors at
Siebel Institute) that it doesn't happen in the U.S.
or in Mexico.  And I think Germany is a good bet too. 
:-)

Here's a good link that talks about this rumor falsely
being applied to Singha beer of Thailand.

http://www.beveragebusiness.com/art98/bryson0603.html.

A-B and other big boys do use many preservatives and
stabilizers, but as I recall, they are all pretty
humdrum food science-type additives.  The primary
preservatives are sulfites and ascorbic acid.  Papain
is a common stabilizer.  I suspect the sulfites might
be a cause of headaches for some.  They don't use
enough of them to have to declare it on their labels,
so very few know about it.

Hope this eases your mind.

Dane Mosher
Fort Worth, TX



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:17:39 -0400
From: ensmingr <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: formaldehyde stuff

The idea that AB adds formaldehyde to Budweiser seems like urban legend. 
However, it does not seem unreasonable that Bud and other beers contain 
a part-per-million (or so) of formaldehyde. They probably contain much 
more methanol, which your liver converts into formaldehyde.

Some background about ethanol/methanol/formaldehyde ...

Normally, alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) in the liver converts ethanol 
(CH3CH2OH) into acetaldehyde (H3CCHO) and aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH) 
converts this into acetic acid (H3CCOOH):
Ethanol--->Acetaldehyde--->Acetic acid

Methanol (CH3OH; 'wood alcohol') is poisonous because ADH coverts it 
into formaldehyde (H2CO) and ALDH converts this into formic acid (HCOOH):
Methanol--->Formaldehyde--->Formic acid

Acetaldehyde and/or the very small amounts of formaldehyde and formic 
acid that follow from drinking large amounts of beer/wine/etc are the 
apparent causes of hangover. Larger amounts of formaldehyde and formic 
acid can be lethal.

Consumption of aspartame (in diet soda etc) leads to release of methanol 
and this can lead to formation of formaldehyde & formic acid. However, 
available evidence indicates that dietary exposure to methanol from 
other sources is much greater than that from aspartame.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr




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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:23:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:  pumpkin ale/chocolate stout

I agree that it would be better to partial mash the
pumpkin per Marc Sedam's instructions instead of
putting it into the boil.  You might want to throw in
some rice hulls in the mash too, because it's going to
get gummy.

Dave Burley offers advice on whirlpooling:

>Use whole leaf hops if you can.To remove your wort
from your hops, whirlpool the wort and the hops will
collect in the middle. 

I haven't had much success with whirlpooling whole
leaf hops.  They are very bulky.  I find that pellets
form a tighter cone in the middle.  YMMV

Putting the hops into a muslin bag does work, but you
have to increase the amount by at least 10% to get the
same contribution that you'd get from loose hops.

re: chocolate stout
Beer writer Randy Mosher (no relation) suggests using
Creme de Cacao as a chocolate flavoring for beer,
which I think is a great idea.  You could add it to
taste in the secondary.  

But if you do use cocoa powder, which I tried once,
ramp down on your bittering hops.  Unsweetened
chocolate is very bitter, and it's a bitterness that
doesn't meld well with hop bitterness.  That chocolate
stout was one of my first brews, and it ended up being
poured down the sink for various reasons... ummhmm
infection... but it sure smelled good while boiling.

Dane Mosher
Fort Worth, TX



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 05:05:34 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: kegging question

Gregory Morris asked a good question on kegging:


"Quick question:
Say I brewed a batch of beer, that after racking/etc came out
to be around 3.5-4 gallons.  I want to keg it in a 5 gallon
keg.  I know there is a problem with having too much oxygen on
top of the beer.  What I'd like to know is, would it be ok to
blow CO2 through the liquid valve on my ball-lock keg, and let
air out of the gas valve?  Would this work?"

Greg, sense the vapor space on top of the beer is air, bubbling CO2 up from
the bottom of the keg would just aerate the wort, IMO.  A better way would
be Dave Burley's method of filling a clean keg up with boiled and cooled
water, then pushing it out with CO2 and racking your beer to the keg through
the liquid out tap.

I don't have the patience to boil 5 gallons of water, so I use tap water to
get the air out, then push some Star San into the keg from another keg and
sanitize the keg that way.  I keep a 3 gallon keg with Star San in the
brewery to sanitize various things. Hope that helped.

If you're in the Houston Area this weekend, come check out the 20th Annual
Dixie Cup Competition.  Details at     http://www.foamrangers.com/

Cheers!!

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 05:03:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Commercial Beer Additives

Joe -

Formaldehyde is not used (nor was it ever used) as a
preservative of any food.  However, in the manufacture
of aluminum cans,  the lubricant used in the process
was treated with formaldehyde (40 years ago) and it
currently treated with some other biocide.  The cans
are cleaned of any lubricant prior to filling, but a
trace amount of biocide is inevitably left behind. 
This process is not particuliar to Budweiser, but
every food produce that uses metal can.  Not only does
this trace amount of biocide have no heath effect, the
current biocide is not formaldehyde.  Formaldehyde is
not used in the lab setting any more, either.  Instead
a less toxic polymer bound formaldehyde like
paraformaldehyde or formalin is used.  

It is a kind of urban myth.  Formaldehyde was not used
as a food preservative like MSG, but was a residual of
the can making process.  If you're looking for reasons
not to drink budweiser, I'm sure you will find plenty,
but formaldehyde is not one.

Michael,
Columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:22:00 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Study Upsets Idea That All Calories---WSJ Article

The 10/14/03 Wall Street Journal had an article that says:

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla.-The dietary establishment has long' argued that it's
impossible, but a new study offers intriguing evidence that people on low
carbohydrate diets can actually eat more than people on standard low-fat
regimen and still lose weight.
    The study, directed by Penelope Greene of the Harvard School of Public
Health and presented at a meeting here this week of the American Association
for the Study of Obesity, found that people eating an extra 300 calories a
day on a very low-carb regimen lost just as much during a 12-week study as
those on a standard low-fat diet.
    Over the course of the study, they consumed an extra 25,000 calories.
That should have added up to about seven pounds. But for some reason, it
didn't.
    "There does indeed seem to be something about a low-carb diet that says
you can eat more calories and lose a similar amount of weight," Dr. Greene
said.
    That strikes at one of the most revered beliefs in nutrition: A calorie
is a calorie is a calorie. It doesn't matter whether they come from bacon or
mashed potatoes; they all go on the waistline in just the same way.
    Not even Dr. Greene says this settles the case, but some at the meeting
found her report fascinating.
    "A lot of our assumptions about a calorie is a calorie are being
challenged," said Marlene Schwartz of Yale. "As scientists, we need to be
open-minded."
    Others, though, found the data hard to swallow.
    "it doesn't make sense, does it?" said Barbara Rolls of Pennsylvania
State University. "It violates the laws of thermodynamics. No one has ever
found any miraculous metabolic effects."
    In the study, 21 overweight volunteers were divided into three
categories: Two groups were randomly assigned to either lowfat or low-carb
diets with 1,500 calories for women and 1,800 for men; a third group was
also low-carb but got all extra 300 calories a day.



Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY

http://hbd.org/pcalinsk


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:06:09 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: aerating dried yeast / kegging

All -

Just my .02 on dried yeasts.....I'm personally a big fan of Danstar
products.  I find them very cost effective, reliable, efficient, and
incredibly easy to use.  When I'm making an ale that has a minimal yeast
profile like an APA, I tend to use Nottingham, and I never aerate.  They
always ferment well, and I've brewed probably 50+ batches this way.  They're
so cheap also that I just pitch 'em down the drain after I'm through
pitchin' em in the wort.  As for how much they can do w/o aeration, try this
on for size:  I just made a Cyser a few weeks ago with 4 gallons of
unpasteurized cider, 9 pounds of honey and some spices....  I pitched (4)
11g packs of Danstar Windsor (not known to be a tremendous attenuator - I
wanted to have a little residual sugar) in ~5 gallons of must and those
little beasties took it from an OG of 1.102 to a FG of 1.002 in 5 days
***without aeration of any kind***.  Take that for what you will, but I take
it to mean that they're pretty healthy little critters as long as you
rehydrate then correctly.  And they're dirt cheap, comparatively.

On kegging...  Usually I purge the sanitizer out of my kegs with CO2 so
there's no residual O2, and then rack in through the out poppet, leaving the
release open or an open gas disconnect on the other poppet.  As long as you
have a keg full of CO2, it doesn't matter a bit that the keg is only 3/5
full, or 1/4 full, or whatever...  Racking to an empty keg through an open
lid may be ok as long as you purge and vent about 4 - 6 times, but I'd
distrust it with a keg only half full.  Gases will mix, and I'd only
recommend the vent/purge thing if you have a keg that's got very little
headspace left...O2 is the absolute enemy of fermented beer.  Side note - I
always initially pressurize my newly-full kegs to about 35 or 40 psi to seal
them up.  You can hear the poppets and such go <pink!>.  Then I hook up
normal carb pressure and wait a week.  No leaks...

 ...my .02

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:09:28 -0800
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: Gravity samples, decarbonating

Domenick (and everyone else who wrote),

* Demonick <demonickatzgi.com> [2003-Oct-13 06:05 AKDT]:
> > Next, I put the samples in the microwave, each for a minute and a 
> > half.  When removed they were bubbling slightly and had reached 
> > 180 F (not boiling).  
> 
> My guess is that some of the ethanol evaporated out of solution.  

I'm sure you're right.  That thought hadn't occurred to me as I was 
heating it to near the boiling point of *water*.

> A better way to decarbonate is to simply shake the sample at room
> temperature.  Do this a number of times and let sit in between shaking
> bouts.  Pick a protocol and stick to it.  For example, shake 60 seconds,
> then let stand 5 miutes.  Repeat 3 times.  Measure SG.  

I think you're right that this is a good method.  I tried the blender 
method on Sunday, and while I'm sure it decarbonates, it also results in 
foam that takes all day to dissipate.  I still got a two point gravity 
increase using the blender method, but in this case it was probably 
because the alcohol evaporated during the twelve hours I had to wait for 
the bubbles to go away.  I expect I'll have some good head retention in 
these beers!

Thanks to everyone who responded.  Summary: shake the samples, or slosh 
them between two containers to decarbonate.  Heating results in alcohol 
evaporation.  The blender results in a big pile of beer foam.

Chris
- -- 
Christopher S. Swingley          email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program         Please use encryption.  GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks   www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:33:36 -0600
From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
Subject: sulfites


On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:40:
dan.morey said:

"Unless you are getting your fruit directly from the vineyard, they have
probably been treated with sulfites to prevent fermentation/spoilage during
shipping.  As for the juice, check the packaging.  The juice I bought last
year was sulfated.
Check the pH of the must and use the minimum level of sulfite to suppress
wild yeasts and bacteria.  Sulfites added after the crush to control wild
yeasts will diminish over time.  Skip sulfites at bottling, as these take a
long time to dissipate.  For additional information, I recommend Jeff Cox's
book From Vines to Wines."

First of all, there's a lot of differences in opinion on when and how to add
sulfites. I would agree with all of what Dan
said except that I think bottling is the most important time to measure and
adjust sulfites. This is when you need to be
most concerned about oxidation.

I don't remember if Jeff Cox is recommending skipping sulfites at bottling
or not, (even if one is trying to minimize sulfite usage) but I doubt it. I
have a copy of his book at home and will try to remember to check this.

Here's a link to the rec.crafts.winemaking discussion group which might give
you more detailed answers to these questions.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&group=rec.crafts.winemaking



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:44:07 -0400
From: "Kerry and Dell Drake" <arcticmallards at cox.net>
Subject:  Brussels

Greetings All:

I'm off to Brussels soon (mostly work) and wondered if anyone could send me
beer related tour/brewery/bar suggestions.

Thanks, Kerry



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:03:39 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kegging Question/Keg purging

Gregory Morris asks "...would it be ok to blow CO2 through the liquid valve 
on my ball-lock keg, and let
air out of the gas valve?  Would this work?"

I do this as standard procedure when kegging to purge the headspace before 
starting to carbonate.  You need to be careful as the co2 connector will 
leak gas if not held tightly and forced on too far will jam.  I just connect 
so it feels right and hold open the blowoff valve to purge.

Do not do this for too long, though or you will strip the hop aroma from 
your beer (or get foam shooting out the blowoff valve).



Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:31:06 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Bottling yeast for lambic

I've been looking for a bottle refermentation yeast for lambic.  Stats on
papers like this (Anita Van Lardschoot, Dept. of Ind. Sci., Belgium) are
typical:

Safbrew     T-31 good to  11% abv.
""               T-58 ""            8.5%
""               S-33 ""            ""
""               B-28 ""            ""
Safale         K-97 ""           6.5%
""                S-04 ""            ""
Saflager      S-23 ""            ""
""                S-189 ""          5.5%

**"Note: No dry yeast is capable of producing satisfactory referment in acid
Belgian beer."**

So how do y'all bottle your lambics?  Kraeusen at bottling?

Thanks,

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego



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