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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Carpet Stains (beer related) ("Robert Jones")
  Lag time and second-guessing ("Scott and Lois Courtney")
  larry and his brussels trip.. ("jim")
  Re: tempering malt -> metric system (petr.otahal)
  Bad Yeast ("Don Scholl")
  temper,temper. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Saison (darrell.leavitt)
  Carpet Stains (joel trojnar)
  Spent Grain Bread (Lee Ellman)
  Degassing etc. (AJ)
  Re: Questions on rauchbiers (Jeff Renner)
  re: Quick Meads (Kirk Harralson)
  Re: Questions on rauchbiers (Christopher Swingley)
  fast meads (ALAN MEEKER)
  Carpet stains ("3rbecks")
  peppers in beer ("J.J.")
  Oatmeal and chocolate in Stout ("J.J.")
  Storage Question (Robert Sandefer)
  dry lager yeast ("Jay Spies")
  Beer from dirt ("Patrick Hughes")
  advice for touring Belgian breweries? (Leo Vitt)


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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:35:41 -0700
From: "Robert Jones" <brew.oregon at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Carpet Stains (beer related)

I had a similar problem (a cola I believe, but it stained just as well).  As
it turns out, the carpet pad was soaked with soda, so even after you cleaned
the carpet, more stain material would wick up and be visible later.

Let it dry completely (this may take a week?) and then clean it using a
cleaner that uses very little water.  An example is ChemDry.  I am not sure
if you can get their products retail, or if you have to call them out to do
the job, but we have had good luck with persistent stains like this.  The
system uses a powder with just a very small amount of water that it dries
quickly and doesn't wick up more stain from the pad.

Hope this helps,
Robert



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:15:38 -0500
From: "Scott and Lois Courtney" <courtney03 at iquest.net>
Subject: Lag time and second-guessing

Hello all, I've got a quick question concerning extended lag times and
yeast:

I recently brewed a batch and pitched a tube of wyeast Munich Lager yeast
dated Sept 02 (yea, yea, why haven't I brewed enough to use a 1+ year old
tube of yeast; yea, yea, why didn't I make a starter for such an old tube,
yea, yea, yea....).  Needless to say, it's been quite an extended lag time -
2 days. I was not relaxed, although I did have a homebrew: I freaked out and
tossed in the only other yeast I had on hand - a packet of Nottingham dry
(thanks Bill Wible) - to try and get things rolling as to not lose the
batch.  However, as I am re-aerating (shake the carboy) after sprinkling the
dry yeast in, I notice an increased amount of CO2 as I agitate (which wasn't
there the last time I shook to check for activity), indicating that the
liquid lager yeast may have started coming around.  Now (4+ hours after
adding dry yeast), I'm seeing some minor airlock activity.

My questions are these:  1) How long is too long when considering lag
times/possible problems, and/or how long until you declare a time-of-death
on your yeast and pitch another tube?
2) Can I crank down the wort to Lager temps to 'inactivate' the dry yeast to
check if the liquid lager yeast is going, or will this hoze the dry yeast
that may be my last hope? (Nottingham quotes the ability to ferment down to
"lager" (quote) temps of 57F)

Any comments/words of wisdom/constructive or destructive criticism are
welcome.

Scott in Indy



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:03:58 -0400
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: larry and his brussels trip..

Hi Larry,
make sure while in Brussels you go to Cantillon. It will, undoubtedly be the
highlight of your trip. When I was there, the owner invited me to stick my
finger into a casket of fermenting lambic for a taste! yep, you heard it
right, my finger!

jim



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:36:59 +1000 (EST)
From: petr.otahal at aardvark.net.au
Subject: Re: tempering malt -> metric system

Jeff Renner wrote:
"[Rant mode on] Too bad you even have to do the calculations. If only
the US had gone through with the metrication that it started with the
1975 Metric Conversion Act. Even though it was started under a
conservative president (Ford), it was jerked to a halt by an even
more conservative one (Regan). Today the whole word uses metric
except the US and our buddies Liberia and Burma. See
http://www.metric4us.com/. [Rant mode off]"


Hi Jeff,


I feel your angst.


What I like most about the metric system with regard to brewing is its
scalability, for example if I had 1kg of malt and wanted a 3 to 1 mash
thickness I would need 3L of water.  Similarly if I had 1000kg of malt I
would need 3000L of water.  Whereas if I had 1 pound of malt I would need
around 1quart 14oz to get the same ratio.  Now if I had 1000pounds I would
need 119gallons 3quarts 9oz give or take.


I especially like the fact that one liter of water is roughly equivalent
to one kilogram of water.  It just makes so much sense.


Have fun working through my calculations, I cheated cause I'm very
imperially challenged, and had to use the metric system to work it out via
a little conversion calculator I have.


Cheers
Petr Otahal
Hobart Tasmania Australia



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:10:12 -0400
From: "Don Scholl" <dws at engineeringdimensions.com>
Subject: Bad Yeast

I had made a starter of OG 1.077 and a vial of White Labs California Ale
WLP001 last Tuesday, pitching yeast Wednesday. This fermented at 68 degrees.
Before pitching to my Christmas Ale, I checked the starter for any odd
odors. I noticed the smell of apple cider or apple vinegar. So I didn't
pitch the starter, had the wife run to town and purchase 2 vials of yeast.
Did I need to dump the starter or did I waste good yeast? What causes the
apple smell?

Don Scholl
Twin Lake, Michigan
(140.9, 302.4)Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:41:25 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: temper,temper.

I would have to say that Petr's description on what's going on with
"tempering" pretty much agrees with my own observation.

This is something that turned up serendipitously for me.  That is, I was
sloppy and careless, and the end result was a joy.

I didn't use any "15 ml per kilo".  I loaded a barrel with malt stuck it
outside to drive it to the crush, and then, er... um... I guess I just
forgot about it.

It rained all night, and the next day, seeing what I'd done, I promptly
kicked myself several times in the backside, pulled the barrel indoors
and poured off the water.

That afternoon I took it to the crush, and it came out looking just like
"rolled oats"! (the breakfast porridge stuff) and I didn't have to snot
out "cookie dough" from my nostrils like after a usual crush
section..... There wasn't a speck of dust in the air.

This raised two interesting thoughts.  I've always reccommended keeping
crushing equipment WELL away from where cold wort or ferments are.....
hopefully a couple of counties away because of the Lactobacillus laden
dust cloud that you create when crushing.  With this, you might even
dare just having it in the next city.

The next thought addressed efficiency. If you do an Iodine test after a
mash, you'll fnd a nice conversion. If you take the grain on a white
porcelain plate, and squash it with your thumbnail, I always find "some"
purple reaction next to the hull that didn't "wet" all the way, right
near the end of the grain

The "rolled oats" didn't have any hidden parts.

I posted this info here, and got a reply from someone (named Jim?) that
this was called "tempering" and got the "teaspoon per pound" recipe.

I'd say for you who don't like to measure every little thing... take
some grains, dump some water on them. let it sit. pour it off, and see
how it crushes...... Adjust by taste.

Dr. Pivo



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:26:03 -0400
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Saison

Anyone got a good Saison recipe?  I have made several in the past, and 
have been very pleased with the spiceyness of this yeast, but would like 
to experiment with new recipes...all grain...

Happy Brewing!

 ..Darrell




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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 05:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: joel trojnar <joeltrojnar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Carpet Stains

Jonathan wrote:

"Sunday night I was labeling bottles while watching
the game on TV and with all of the distractions I
managed to knock a 12-pack from a TV tray and 
break two full bottles of pale ale on our living room
carpet. Now there is a nice brown stain in the middle
of our tan berber carpet and I am having some 
difficulty getting it out. Tried so far:....."

Jonathan:

Well done.  I did the same thing myself, except with a
porter!  Reappearing stains, aka, wickback, is common
when people try to clean stains.  Looks good
initially, then the carpet sucks back up the spill
from the cushion.  I'm the technical guy for the
country's largest carpet cushion manufacturer and I
can tell you there is little you can do but repeat,
repeat, and repeat cleanings.  There are cushions with
a spill barrier laminated to the top to prevent such
phenomena and are quite effective.

I got most of the stain out of my carpet (can't wait
until I move the bookshelf some day!) by using a
"steam" cleaner multiple times to pull out the bulk of
the stain.  Over do it and the stain will grow, so
don't dump the water on.  I used a towel to help speed
up the wicking process.  Let the stain dry completly
so that the cushion is dry and then lightly clean the
surface of the carpet, avoiding the cushion.  This
will prevent wickback.  Who cares if the cushion is
stained at this point.  Let the cushion dry for a good
week with a fan before doing final treatment.  Cushion
is a very good sponge.

Oxyclean is a somewhat a scam.  The commercials show
this stuff taking out stains in a carpet.  All they
are doing is flooding the carpet with a solution, thus
driving the stain below the surface.  They don't show
you the results the next day.  This is a mild oxidizer
and will brighten things up, but it will not "bleach"
out all stains as advertised.  That big iodine looking
filled tub that turns clear is a basic chemistry
experiment we all probably saw in grade school at some
point or another.  Big deal.  BTW, Oxyclean makes good
cleaning of beer equipment, much like more expensive
cleaners found at our brew shops (sorry owners!).

My two cents.  My office has a slight aroma of a
Northern Porter, ahh, the wife is so happy about that!

Joel Trojnar





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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:46:15 -0400
From: Lee Ellman <lee.ellman at cityofyonkers.com>
Subject: Spent Grain Bread

I use at least a small part of my spent grain for a brown bread.  Look up
baked brown bread in a good cook book.  I used the recipe from Joy of 
Cooking as a base.  Substitute grain that you have run through the food
processor for the graham flour.  I thing I used most of a pound of steeped
grain to get the cup or so equivalent that I substituted in the recipe.
I also substituted corn syrup for half the molasses so that it would
not be overpoweringly dark. This is a baking powder bread so there 
is no time spent with rising. It makes a very dense moist "healthy"
loaf with lots of fiber.   A big hit with SWMBO.




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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:00:58 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Degassing etc.


I wonder where Noonan came up with the scheme described in that quote. 
Beer is usually degassed for analysis by agitation in a large flask. For 
maximum repeatability ASBC has a  method in which the flask is placed on 
a rotary shaker at a specified speed for a specified time.

The alcohol determination procedure would only give a rough estimate as 
some water will come off at 173F as well as some, but not all, of the 
alcohol. The prescribed methods for alcohol and true extract call for 
evaporation of the sample to half its intial volume (having first added 
distilled water in the amount of half the original volume) by boiling 
thus making sure that all the alcohol is driven off (the vapor is 
condensed and made back up to the original volume (or weight) of the 
beer thus creating a water solution with the same alcoholic strength (by 
volume or weight). The strength of the water solution is then determined 
by measuring specific gravity. The residue is also made back up to the 
original volume and its specific gravity determined. This is the true 
extract. Just in case the volume comments were confusing: add 50 mL 
distilled water to 100 mL beer, collect 96 mL distillate and make up to 
100 mL; make up residue to 100 mL.

A.J.



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:58:51 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Questions on rauchbiers

Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu> of Cleveland Heights, Ohio writes:

>I'm about to start a run of lagers ...  Since I use an immersion 
>chiller and leave most of the break and trub in the kettle, I 
>generally rack one batch to a secondary and put the new batch right 
>onto the primary yeast cake.

First of all, I hpe you are going to use Ayinger yeast (WhiteLabs WLP833
German Bock Lager Yeast).  It is the perfect yeast for all four styles.

>I'm planning to do a run of a helles, a Vienna, a rauchbier and a 
>bock, probably in that order. Am I likely to have some smoky flavor 
>carry over to a later batch from the rauchbier yeast?  If this seems 
>likely, I'll just grow up some more yeast separately for the bock, 
>but I thought I'd first ask the group if anyone has tried this.

I can't speak from experience on this precise question, but I have 
some thoughts.

Pitching all of the yeast is probably actually overpitching by 
several fold.  This might not be an actual problem, but I'd think it 
might be worthwhile to pull some of the yeast.  This way you could 
brew two batches closer together, or even three, without waiting for 
the previous one to finish.  This, of course, would depend on your 
equipment capacity.  I have done this - there is plenty of yeast, 
even for pitching the large amount that is proper for a lager.

Even though you get pretty clean sedimented yeast from using an 
immersion chiller (I have the same procedure and results), it might 
not hurt to wash the yeast in sterile (boiled and cooled) distilled 
or reverse osmosis water between brews, or at least after several 
serial brews.  This would have the advantage of removing any smoky 
flavor from the rauchbier yeast.  I am sure that any flavors would be 
almost entirely in the residual beer, and very little in/on the yeast 
itself.

Finally, a subliminal touch of smoke in a bock, and I'm sure that's 
all it would be if you drain the yeast well, might add to its 
complexity.  Who knows?

Cheers

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kirk Harralson <kirk78h at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Quick Meads

Thanks to everyone who replied and offered advice on this
subject.

After more digging, I finally found the original post from way
back in 1998 by Ken Schramm I was referring to.  Jeff Renner's
post mentioned that he had written a book on the subject, so I
will definitely pick it up.  My local brewshop did not have a
copy, so I may have to find it online.

Besides the few things already mentioned in "helping the mead
develop early", I read that it helped to add the yeast nutrients
in stages during the early part of fermentation as opposed to
adding it all at the beginning.  Hopefully, more background on
this is covered in Ken's book because it sounds very
interesting.

For those who inquired about my 5 year absence from this digest
(and brewing) -- it was unfortunate, but a nasty divorce, two
moves and a serious back injury will do those sorts of things. 
I'm mulling over some ideas for a backyard brewery that would
allow me to get back to full-scale brewing.  As I come up with
design ideas, I'll run them by here first.

Again, thanks for all the great advice.  This is, and always has
been, an excellent forum for ideas.

Kirk



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:20:09 -0800
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: Questions on rauchbiers

Paul,

* Paul Shick <shickatjcu.edu> [2003-Oct-21 11:53 AKDT]:
> I'm planning to do a run of a helles, a Vienna,
> a rauchbier and a bock, probably in that order. Am I
> likely to have some smoky flavor carry over to a later
> batch from the rauchbier yeast?

I have only one data point to offer, since I just finished brewing my 
first smoked beer.  In my case I brewed a smoked porter with 18% 
home-smoked 2-row (3 pounds out of 16.5), and after racking from primary 
to secondary, syphoned a mild brown ale onto the yeast cake.  The brown 
had a starting gravity of 1.042.  Initial samplings of the brown 
contained a significant, but mild smoky flavor.  By the time I 
bottled it, I couldn't detect any hint of smoke flavor.  One hypothesis 
is that the smoke I was tasting early in the fermentation may have been 
a result of the stuff in suspension, and once the yeast settled and the 
beer cleared, the smoke flavor wasn't evident.

> While I'm planning the rauchbier, I'm curious about
> how much smoked malt people have used in their rauchbiers.
> Looking at some recipes, it seems to vary from as little as
> 10% to as much as 100% of the grist.  The Weyermann smoked
> malt I've got is a bit old, so I plan to use a fair bit,
> but I'm leery of going much over 50% of the grist

As I mentioned, I used about 18%, and from initial sampling of the beer, 
that will be plenty for me.  50% smoked grain sounds like an awful lot, 
even if it's old.

> And yes, before anyone suggests it, I _am_ ordering the Daniels
> and Larson AHA Styles book.

Good plan, excellent book.

Chris
- -- 
Christopher S. Swingley          email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program         Please use encryption.  GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks   www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:02:33 -0400
From: ALAN MEEKER <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: fast meads

The primary problem in getting a mead to ferment quickly is that honey is a 
poor source of non-sugar nutrients required by the yeast for efficient 
fermentation. This can be overcome to a great extent simply by pitching 
high, but supplementation with either a yeast nutrient, yeast energizer, or
other nutrient source (even fruit) will also speed things up. In addition to 
the lack of nutrients, mead musts often are high gravity. This presents an 
osmotic stress to the yeast which can also be offset to a large extent by 
pitching high and adding a nitrogen-containing nutrient, the same things 
that help with high gravity beers such as barleywines. CO2 build-up will 
also be substantial, and is inhibitory to fermentation, therefore frequent 
agitation to remove dissolved CO2 should also help. 

Pete Ensminger discussed ultrafiltration as a trick used by some commercial 
outfits to speed up the process. My hunch is that this helps more in getting
a /drinkable/ product rather than actually speeding up the fermentation 
per se. 

While the above suggestions will help your mead finish quickly, it will 
still likely benefit from extended aging, especially if it is a strong mead.

For more info I suggest you check out the Mead Lover's digest and/or 
Ken Schramm's recent book on mead making.

Hope this helps

 -Alan Meeker



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:16:20 -0500
From: "3rbecks" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Carpet stains

Jonathan,
There is only one logical and easy solution.

Move the furniture

Rob
Kansas City



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:28:40 -0500
From: "J.J." <dbljay7542 at verizon.net>
Subject: peppers in beer

I would like to use some habanero peppers in a beer.
Can anyone suggest an amount to use,
so as not to overpower the beer. 
I want it hot and flavorful but not "just peppers".
Thank You
JJ




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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:48:28 -0500
From: "J.J." <dbljay7542 at verizon.net>
Subject: Oatmeal and chocolate in Stout

I am planning on brewing a couple of stouts coming up.
An oatmeal stout, How much oatmeal should I use?
A chocolate stout, How much chocolate?
Thank you
JJ



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:50:26 -0400
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Storage Question

I have 10 gallons of Berliner weisse that has been in the secondary 
fermenter for 5 weeks and will probably spend another 2-4 weeks there 
before I work up the will to bottle.

This is the longest I have ever let a beer sit in secondary, and I have a 
question for the Digest:

Will the yeast (WLP029) in the beer still be able to carbonate it when the 
beer is primed and bottled?

Or should I add a packet of dry yeast to ensure carbonation?

Any advice or experience is welcome.

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:21:30 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: dry lager yeast

Hey all -

Thinking about making a Northern German Pilsner, and was considering the
idea of giving Safale dry lager yeast a run....   Potential pros and cons as
far as I can see:  Pros - it's cheap, so I can pitch a tremendous amount and
with the right rehydration have commercial or higher pitch rates;  if it's
pre-sterol-ed like the Danstar products it'll be a strong fermentor and
oxygenation will not be as much of an issue (tho I'll still do it);  last,
its easy, so there's no week-long starter buildup - rehydrate and go.
 Cons - a biggie - the flavor may be a bit estery or without the trademark
lager sharpness/sulfury/steely characteristic.  I have a temperature
controlled fermenter, so ferm temperature is not a variable.

Does anyone have any experience with this yeast?  Would like to get some
feedback before I make the call.  Thanks in advance, as always....

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:09:19 -0500
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Beer from dirt

In HBD 3863 dated Feb 12, 2002 Stevee Alexander was about to start a beer
from dirt experiment. Wondering how that turned out?
I grew up in southeastern Ohio working in a family owned feed mill. Many
farmers back then grew some barley for cattle feed. Wasn't the main crop but
often used as an addition to corn in the feed
Patrick Hughes
Northeast Ohio




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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: advice for touring Belgian breweries?


"larry  maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net> asked for some advice
about touring breweries in Belgium.  

I was part of a self touring foursome in May 2001.  I don't know how
different it will be in January.

Cantillion in Brussels is open to the public as a museum.  It is a
lambic brewery that still uses what I would descrive as 19th century
equipment.  The schedule is listed in some tour guide books.  Don't
remember the location, but got within 2 or 3 blocks by the subway.

In the town center (Is it called Grand Place?) There is the Federation
of Belgian Brewers museum.  You can see it in half an hour and get a
beer when your leaving.

Huyghe Is close to Brussels.  We got to tour it because someone in the
group contacted them in advance.  They don't normally give tours.  The
made an exception for a little group of American homebrewers.  That was
the nicest brewery tour I have ever gone on.  Very modern equipment.
They make a large variety of beers you might recognize better than the
brewery name; Delerium Tremins, St Idelsbald, Floris fruit beers.
Located in a tiny town called Melle between Brussels and Ghent.  We got
there from Brussels by taking the fast train to Ghent, then back
tracking on the slow train.

If you can stay in other towns and on a weekend - The mad brewers are
only open Saturday and Sunday.  Go to Diksmuide by train.  We stayed in
that town, and took the taxi to Essen. It must be about 5 miles.  Ask
to be taken to the brewery and arange a time for the driver to return
for you.  English tours 2:00 if I remember correctly.

Trappist monistaries are harder.  We got to the cafe across the road
from the monistary in Westvlertin.  For that we rented a car from the
car dealer in Diksmuide.  I have heard from people who visited Orval.
We also visited kasteel in Inglemunster while we had the car.

Cafes:
Brussels and Ghent have a number of nice cafes with good selections.
Brussels near the center - Pupet Theater - Across from the statue known
as Manican Pis.  Beer Circus.  Ghent I forget the names, but there were
two we visited down town next to the river.  It's an easy tram ride
from the rail station.

=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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