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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Pepper beer ("Parker Dutro")
  re: Lag time and second-guessing ("-S")
  carpet stains (Alan McKay)
  DCL dry lager yeast (Alan McKay)
  expired extracts (Alan McKay)
  RE: overpitching dry yeast (Brian Lundeen)
  Distilled Beverage Digest (Jeff Renner)
  re: carpet cleaning ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Keg Foam 101 ("Kevin Anderson")
  Re: dry lager yeast ("Drew Avis")
  Twentieth Annual Dixie Cup Results ("Mike Heniff")
  Re: tempering malt -> metric system/Ox[yi]Clean. ("-S")


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:44:45 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: RE: Pepper beer

I made a pepper pale ale this summer by brewing a medium pale ale and
throwing about 12 oven roasted Serrano peppers into the secondary
fermenter.  They steeped three weeks and the beer has been in bottle
four, the heat is there, enough to warm your throat and mouth but not to
make your eyes water.  There is a roasted pepper flavor, too, which is
actually good, not a beer I would drink all the time, but a good beer to
share with people and discuss.  Roasting was supposed to help reduce
some oils in the peppers and in effect prevent ruining the head
retention, but the head is not substantial and lasts only a few sips.  I
think I would try blanching a few habenero peppers in some water, simmer
the water down a bit and see if that doesn't produce a low flavor/high
heat sauce.  Throw that (after it's cooled a bit) into the secondary or
add at bottling time.  This would avoid physical contact between the
beer and the flesh of the peppers, reducing the flavor transmission.
Good luck!!

Parker

"To every man, in his acquaintance with a new art, there comes a moment
when that which before was meaningless first lifts, as it were, one
corner of the curtain that hides its mystery, and reveals, in a burst of
delight which later and fuller understanding can hardly ever equal, one
glimpse of the indefinite possibilities within."  C.  S.  Lewis






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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:21:41 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Lag time and second-guessing

After pitching some old yeast, waiting 48 hours then repitching
Scott asks about lag time,

>1) How long is too long when considering lag times/possible problems,
> and/or how long until you declare a time-of-death

The issue isn't  time of death, but who's in charge of  fermentation.  The
first ancient tube of yeast would eventually come around, but it may take a
week and by then infections would dominate.  The better your sanitation the
longer a lag period you can tolerate.  Few HBers practices will allow a 72hr
lag time without a flavor impact.  Even at 48 hours you may get some
detectable background infection flavors.

I wouldn't dump the batch, it may turn out fine. Some infections have fairly
benign flavor additions and most will be stopped when the yeast take off.
Do taste the beer critically for infection flavors.  I expect this batch
will have a bigger than usual "house flavor".

You only get CO2 bubbling  after the yeast have supersaturated the wort with
CO2 so outgassing occurs.  This takes longer with underpitching even if the
yeast are good.   You'd like to see this happen in under 12 hours, but 24
hours isn't a disaster.  Personally I'd be concerned at 12 hours and repitch
at 24 since it will still take another 6-12 hours for the repitch take off.

>2) Can I crank down the wort to Lager temps to 'inactivate' the dry yeast
to

Lager yeast do very poorly at high temps, but as a rule ale yeast will
tolerate
low temps but ferment more slowly.  You'll get more lager-like character
if you ferment cold, even  from ale yeast.  I seriously doubt you'll be able
to KO the ale yeast with cold but it will give the lager yeast a relative
advantage.  Do it !

The ale yeast may drop-out early at low temps, so be sure you get full
attenuation.

====

G.Fix suggested a very practical test of HB sanitation practices.  When you
are filling your fermenter (not before)  divert a small amount of wort to a
sterilized jar and seal it.  Keep the jar in a warm place (75-80F) and
observe how long it takes before there are signs of infection.  Outgassing,
surface colonies, turbidity, off aromas are all signs.

I can't find the reference but George had some specific guidelines that  >72
hours was ideal, >48 hours was tolerable and less than 48 requires immediate
revision of brewing sanitation procedures.   This is a great test as it
requires no specialized equipment and is relatively easy to interpret.

 -S





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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:39:55 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: carpet stains

2 things I find work really well for any stains, any where.

(1) Mix some oxyclean in a spray bottle with really hot water.
   watch it because this can also fade or discolour things

(2) cat piss remover.  You buy it at the pet store.  Look for the
   stuff containing enzymes and bacteria. It normally comes in a
   spray bottle.  It takes baby poop out of the new sofa without a 
   trace to be see, wine stains out of a white wool sweater - I haven't  
   yet found a stain it cannot remove.  It's pretty amazing stuff.
   The package says it can also discolour, but I have not had it
   do that yet.

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:54:30 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: DCL dry lager yeast

I have not tried the S-23, but I'm a pretty big fan of both
S-189 and W-34/70.  If what you read on the net is true, W-34/70
is the same strain as Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager.  I've read that
the latter stems from Weihenstephn 34/70, and I have to guess that
DCL's name for their yeast is not coincidental.

Both of these ferment cleanly and attenuate well.  They make
for a good crisp lager.  I also use the S-189 in my Koelsch Style
beers.  It ferments well at higher temps and gives a good clean
beer after lagering for a while.

Oh, S-189 is from the Huerlimann brewery in Switzerland and
is AKA Weihenstephen 195.

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:58:07 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: expired extracts

I wouldn't use them.  In fact, I have found that extracts that are
even 12 months BEFORE the expirey date can make a pretty crappy beer.
I made one last winter and it was horrible - oxydized to hell.  One
can of extract was 5 months before the date, the other was 12.

I can only imagine that the beer you'd make would end up being a
pretty huge waste of time, much like mine was last winter.

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:56:40 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: overpitching dry yeast

Denny Conn writes:

>  Next I 
> tried it in a 
> Dort Export.  3 packs this time, fermented at 45-48F.  This 
> beer turned out 
> so weird that I finally asked John Palmer to try it to help 
> me identify the 
> off tastes.  He wrote back that it reminded him of a Bartles & Jaymes 
> Passion Fruit Wine cooler!  (I don't even want to know how he 
> knew what 
> that tasted like!).  He surmised that it might have been a case of 
> overpitching,

Of course, there is a strong temptation to suggest that this is simply what
happens when PNW brewers try making beer without Cascade hops, but I will
resist that urge. ;-)

I too had some very unfortunate results the two times I tried pitching very
large amounts of dry yeast. I took two cracks at a Vienna style with DCL
34/70 using DCL's recommended pitching rate for cold worts. It worked out to
about 40 grams of yeast. The resulting beers were completely undrinkable,
with a horrible sour-yeasty character. The first time I thought it might be
a rare infection. With it happening twice, I suspect the pitching rate. I
think a sizeable portion of the pitched population simply died on contact
with the cold wort, settled out and proceeded to create some major funk.

Unfortunately, that killed my 34/70 stock, so I never got a chance to try it
again with a more modest initial population. However, a subsequent O'fest
with DCL S-189 pitched at a more normal rate of around 20 g per 5 gallons
turned out just fine. I couldn't even detect any phenolics. (Oops, better
not start that thread up again). ;-) 

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:12:58 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Distilled Beverage Digest

Brewers

There has been some revived activity on the Distilled Beverage 
Digest, which is gratifying.  We had to shut it down last spring (or 
maybe earlier?) when the virus attack got so bad.

Unfortunately, after some time without activity, there are a number 
of bad addresses, which I've had to unsubscribe.  I've listed them at 
the bottom of this message.  If you see your address here and want to 
resubscribe, send the word "usubscribe", without the quotes, to 
dbd-request at hbd.org.

If you know of a good address for one of these people, please let me 
know and I'll resubscribe them.

DBD is a list for the discussion of the appreciation and making of 
distilled spirits and related subjects.  The current topic has been 
about the recreation of George Washington's pot still (which was 
confiscated in 1939 from descendants of his slaves) and the 
recreation of his whiskey (60%rye, 36% corn, 5% malt) by master 
distillers from the bourbon industry.  Some links on this thread:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/983343.asp?cp1=1

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/mtvernon/

http://www.vendomecopper.com/pgpstill.htm

The unsubscribed addresses:

adam_griffiths at amp.com.au
rodpr at iquest.net
malfaro at qualcomm.com
blacksab at midwest.net
dave at jamesbaker.com
ajdel at mindspring.com
colink at wenet.net
hugh.hoover at software.com
carl.david at lindgren.com
Luger at mailbox.swipnet.se
jun at freeuk.com
oakbarrell at hotmail.com
dcippy at hotmail.com
jgordon805 at hotmail.com
phatbrewboy at hotmail.com

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:25:31 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: re: carpet cleaning

Hey, someone should have mentioned that as a solution.  When I spill a lot 
of beer on the carpet, I usually just sell the place and find one with 
clean carpets :)

At 12:29 AM 10/24/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Now, if anyone knows someone in the market for a townhouse in Merrimack, NH
>(with a freshly cleaned carpet), have them drop me an email!

cheers,
mike 



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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:36:18 -0500
From: "Kevin Anderson" <Kevin.Anderson at myrealbox.com>
Subject: Keg Foam 101

When I started kegging I was having a very similar problem 
but luckily I found this website that informs you how to balance 
your keg system. To my suprise it said I should be using only 
3 psi, but low an behold it worked like a charm! Hope it helps you.

http://kegman.net/balance.html

Kevin Anderson
Austin, TX




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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:23:50 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: dry lager yeast

Jay Spies asks in HBD#4381 about "Safale dry lager yeast".

I'll chime in and say I've used a couple of DCL's dry lager yeasts, and like
them all, though some more than others.

(Just for clarity's sake, DCL brands these yeasts "Saflager").  These are
three that I've used:
S-23 - most readily available, makes a crisp, neutral lager, performs well
at 48-50F.  A bit estery in higher gravity beers.
S-189 - accents on the malt, performs well at 46-48F, one person in our brew
club reports that this can be used as a low-temp ale yeast with good
results.
34/70 - accents the hops, my favourite, great in CAPs and other hoppy
lagers, very clean.  According the DCL site, this is the Weihenstephan
strain, which would make it equivalent to Wyeast 2124.

S-189 and 34/40 are only available in bulk, or in "re-packaged"
homebrew-sized packages from entrepreneurial homebrew shops and brewing
coops.

Drew
- --
http://www.strangebrew.ca
"Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then
I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of
their hopes and dreams. If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, 'It is
better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than to be
selfish and worry about my liver.'"


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:26:58 -0500
From: "Mike Heniff" <m.heniff at earthlink.net>
Subject: Twentieth Annual Dixie Cup Results

The results for the twentieth annual Dixie Cup can be found at
http://www.crunchyfrog.net/dixiecup/  

This year we had 1,013 entries from all across the country and Canada
making us once again the largest single-site competition.  The Dixie Cup
was defended by the Foam Rangers with Houston's own Kuykendahl Gran
Brewers (KGB) finishing second and Central Florida Homebrewers (CFHB)
rounding out the top three.

Best of Show Beer as won by Jim Johnson and John Schmaltz from the Bay
Area Mashtronauts with their North German Pilsner.  Best of Show
Mead/Cider was won by Leroy Gibbins from the Foam Rangers for his
varietal mead.  The Templeton award (most points) was won by Mike Heniff
from the Foam Rangers.  

In all it was a great Dixie Cup, lots of beer, lots of food, lots of
fun.  See you next October when the Dixie Cup becomes legal (21st
annual)!

Mike Heniff
Foam Rangers Secondary Fermenter and Dixie Cup Coordinator



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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:29:36 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: tempering malt -> metric system/Ox[yi]Clean.

Jeff Renner and Petr of Oz are hincking on the US (English)- system of
weights and measures again.

J>"[Rant mode on] Too bad you even have to do the calculations.

You have a great argument that we should all use the same system to avoid
conversions, but your argument in favor of metric is "everyone else is doing
it".  That didn't fly in high school why is it valid here ?

J> our buddies .... Burma
It's been Myanmar (not Burma) for well over a decade.

> it was jerked to a halt by an even
>more conservative one (Regan).

I know the liberal soul wants to blame all the world's ills on conservatives
(and visa versa) but lets get a reality injection here.  The metric
conversion act failed to create popular use of any metric unit in 13 years.
Mercy killing a failed fed agency is good news IMO.   It's Congress which
must *mandate* the transition schedule by law if it's ever to happen.  Under
Reagan the 1988 Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act designated metric as
the preferred US system and mandated metric use in most non-consumer
applications by federal agencies !  Frankly it's folly to blame or praise a
Pres for such things.

There is some confusion over the status of metric in the US.   In 1866
Congress passed an act that reads ...  <<It shall be lawful throughout the
United States of America to employ the weights and measures of the metric
system; ....>>.  The metric system has been legal in the US for 137 years.
In 1893 Congress established the meter and kilogram as the basis for all US
weights and measures.  US feet and pounds are officially determined as so
many meters or kg.

Jeff - it's perfectly legal to use metric anywhere and everywhere in the US.
It's even officially preferred.  The "deal" is that no one has banned the
old US-English units for trade use.  That suites my libertarian viewpoint
just fine.  Shouldn't market forces determine that transition ?    I'd
personally prefer metric, but I don't believe that metric is any better in a
fundamental sense then the US-English system.  Both are silly and antiquated
IMO.


Petr says ...
P>What I like most about the metric system with regard to brewing is its
P>scalability, for example if I had 1kg of malt and wanted a 3 to 1 mash
P>thickness I would need 3L of water.

It's 3 pints per pound to get (nearly) the same result.

P>Now if I had 1000pounds I would
P>need 119gallons 3quarts 9oz give or take.

No. Your calculation is way way off.
1000lbs at 3:1 is ~3000 pints => ~375gal - no calculator needed.

These "factor of ten is so convenient" arguments are half rubbish.  It's
just as silly as claiming  that scaling from 10 gallons to 10 bbl is a
simple factor of 31 while you  metric folks have to deal with scaling 38L to
11.73 hL.   The argument is silly because no fixed scale factor occur often
in the real world.    If an HB recipe uses 3.65kg of malt per 20L, how much
malt for a 1.25hL microbrewery batch ?  I suggest you use a $5 calculator
and get over the gross bias for round numbers.  The only sense in which
"factor of ten" helps is in not having to recall the unit conversions ..
pints to gallons to barrels etc.

>I especially like the fact that one liter of water is roughly equivalent
>to one kilogram of water.

But pint <==>  pound is close enough for brewing calcs.

I'll also point out that if you were dealing everyday with volumes vs masses
of mercury or petrol or CO2 or even wort you'd find no such convenience.


=======

The US system has it's ancient  basis on laughably parochial things like the
length and weight of a barley corn, size of a human foot, the temp of the
human body vs the freezing point of a salt solution.  The metric system is
only marginally better with the fundamental unit, the meter, originating as
1/40millionth of a very lousy estimate of the earth's circumference  (why
earth, why circumference, why 1/40millionth ?).  The factor of ten units  is
based on the typical number of appendages on the forearms of  bi-pedal
primates.   Meters are a lousy basis and so mass, originally based on cubic
meters of water, is too.  Celsius is in need of replacement IMO, water is
common enough but the spec pressure is arbitrary.  This " badly estimated
planet of the apes circumference" metric system is every bit as parochial
and laughable as the English system at it's foundation.  Metrics only true
virtue is that it is more widely accepted.

I'll point out that correct Gaussian electrical CGS  units are not in common
use anywhere on the planet, only physicist depart from the "rationalized"
(read 'hack') MKS units.  If you think metric solves conversion problems
I'll ask you how many ergs per joule or how many dynes per newton how many
oersted per amp/meter  ?   Converting the hacked MKS elec units to other
metric units of force etc or to CGS elec units  require arcane conversion
factors.   We all use the Babylonian time increments of seconds, minutes,
hours too.  At best metric countries are half-metric by my reckoning.

It's trivially easy to devise a system based on solid fundamental physical
constants like the unit charge, Plank's constant and  speed of light.  Let's
get it right next switch.

======================

FYI -
OxiClean and OxyClean are two *very* different products.  I believe Joel
Trognar meant OxiClean  when he wrote "Oxyclean".   OxiClean is a retail
powder mix of sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate, similar to CIP
cleaners.  OxyClean is a liquid chlorinated sodium hydroxide mix.
http://www.melrosechem.com/english/msd_eng/hs0853.pdf

 -S




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