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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Brown Malt (Darrell.Leavitt)
  Sankey keg mash tun capacity (K.M.)" <kmuell18@visteon.com>
  Re: brown malt ("Drew Avis")
  Local brewing clubs in MA? (Cairns Jim MTPROUS)
  Brown Malt ("Harlan Nilsen")
  RE: The P-word (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: brown malt (Brian Lundeen)
  THIRSTY homebrew Classic ("Walsh, Susan")
  Malt Conditioning ("Doug Hurst")
  grain beetles (Isaac Gibson)
  Counter Pressure Bottle Filler ("Dan Hansen")
  re. need advice on fruit beer ("John Misrahi")
  Re: need advice on fruit beer ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Re: Brown malt (Robert Sandefer)
  Re: fruit beer (Robert Sandefer)
  Maudite (nwillis)
  Bavarian Beer Halls ("Ken Smith")
  System Efficiency & Nosparge calculations (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
  US (English) vs. Metric vs Imperial ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Pitching Rate for Barleywine ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Re: tempering malt -> metric system/Ox[yi]Clean (petr.otahal)
  Bottling Foam ("David King")


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:02:40 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: Brown Malt





I suppose that brown malts may vary, but the one that I have used (
Fawcett's) has no enzymes...and the most that I'd use in a 10-12 lb grain
bill is 1 lb... 2 at the most....a very nice addition to a porter..

 ..Darrell



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:40:03 -0500
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
Subject: Sankey keg mash tun capacity

This Saturday (Nov 1, Teach a friend to Homebrew day), I'm planning on doing
a little brewing.  I've got a rather sizeable amount of grain (probably 40
pounds or so) that I've had in my basement (over a year and a half, dry/cool
storage).

First:  How long will that grain be good for?  i.e., will I be disappointed
if I use it now?  I was thinking I'd try to use it all up this weekend.

Second:  How much (pounds) grain can I safely mash in a half barrel, sankey
keg mash tun?  I've got a flat, perforated steel false bottom in it that
just covers the concaved portion of the tun.

My thoughts were to use all of my base malt in the tun.  Take the first
runnings for a big beer (probably an imperial stout) and then batch sparge a
smaller beer (regular gravity stout).

Any suggestions on recipes for this method?  Any tips or tricks?  I suppose
this is the "party gyle" method, right?  I've never done it.  I've always
been a "fly sparger".

Thanks!

Kevin
Canton, MI



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:15:49 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: brown malt

Andy in Las Vegas asks about making a historical porter with brown malt.
All I can say is don't do it!  At least not with modern brown malt, which is
nothing like the historical "brown malt" that made up most of the original
porter grist.  Modern browns (Hugh Baird, Fawcett, etc) are like a light
chocolate, highly roasted, sharp and astringent - use sparingly to get a
nice coffee note in your beer.  Use large amounts, and your beer will taste
like very strong charred expresso.

Look for a darker pale ale malt for your historical porter grist - I think
one malster sells a "mild" malt which should do the trick - just make sure
it's got a bit of diastatic power.

Drew Avis ~ Ottawa, Ontario
- --
http://www.strangebrew.ca
"To me, it's a good idea to always carry two sacks of something when you
walk around. That way, if anybody says, 'Hey, can you give me a hand?' You
can say, 'Sorry, got these sacks.'"


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:07:29 -0500
From: Cairns Jim MTPROUS <Jim.Cairns at mt.com>
Subject: Local brewing clubs in MA?

Hello everybody!

	I just thought I would ping the group and ask a basic question. Are
there any brewing clubs in the Northern Massachusetts Southern New Hampshire
area? I guess it's a silly question because I know there has to be but, most
of the contacts I have found to date are way out of date. So, if any one
could point me in the right direction I would be very grateful! Thanks in
advance...Jim


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:12:21 -0600
From: "Harlan Nilsen" <ramnrah at nebi.com>
Subject: Brown Malt

I brewed a porter a couple of months ago using 1/3 each of pale malt, amber
malt and brown malt.  It is a great tasting porter.  The brown malt when in
the mash smells much like a just opened fresh can of coffee and this flavor
carries over into the porter in a very delicious way.  Whenever we have a
club meeting or when some of my friends come to the house this is the first
beer they request.  For hops I used fuggles all the way.

The next time I brew this beer I think I will use 1/2 pale malt and 1/4 of
each of the others.  With the 1/3 recipe it was very slow to convert but it
can be done with lots of patience.

Hope this helps.

Harlan
32nd St. Brewery
Located in the center of our great nation.




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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:10:47 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: The P-word

> 
> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:27:08 -0400
> From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
> Subject: apologies ... 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> It seems some folks were offending by my use of an alternate 
> word for "pee".  My sincerest apologies.  

I must take righteous offense over your totally unnecessary use of the word
"pee" (Ack, I said it myself!) here, Alan. I had no problem with the word
"piss" but now you have crossed the line of good taste. Unlike "pee" (Ack!),
"piss" is a friendly word. Some examples:

Hey, guys, let's head down to the bar and get "pissed". (By taxi, of
course).

Or one for our jocular Australian readers:

"Piss" off, mate! (accompanied with much laughter, back slapping and
chundering). 

How can you not love the word?

But "pee" (Ack! Ack!)? That's just crude vulgarity I don't expect to hear
outside of a bowling alley. I expect a full apology for this rudeness, Alan.

Assuming this makes it through Pat's newly updated filters, that is. 

Brian, mortified and in high dudgeon in Winnipeg 


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:38:51 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: brown malt

> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:01:10 -0700
> From: "Andy and Tina Bailey" <atmlobailey at cox.net>
> Subject: brown malt
> 
> I am considering brewing a porter with a substantial portion 
> of the grist being brown malt-something along the line of 5# 
> pale, 5# brown, and 1/2# darker crystal (5 gal).
> 

I'm sure Drew Avis will chime in here with his thoughts on such a recipe.
Years ago, he bought a full sack of the stuff thinking this was the way to
go with porter brewing. He has been handing brown malt out to other brewers
ever since, often with the threat of being bludgeoned with a frisbee should
the intended recipient appear unwilling to benefit from his largesse (which
incidentally, is a French word which has absolutely nothing to do with the
urine of cats or any other species).

Now porter is not one of my favourite styles so Drew's kind "gift" had been
sitting around the malt bin for some time. However, having decided to do a
presentation on porter to my brew club, and with the dearth of porters to
choose from around here, I figured I had better brew one up just to offer
some variety.

Drew's little bag o' malt came to about 8% by weight in the recipe, an
amount that I later learned from Drew was about twice what he considered a
safe level. Still, having kegged it up this weekend, I must say I find my
concoction quite drinkable, and I dare say, it might even creep up into the
category of enjoyable (something few porters do for me). Most of the ones
I've tried I find to be thin, sour, acrid, nasty brutish things (with great,
pointed teeth).

So, keep the brown malt to a minor role and add in something for the roasty
side. I used Weyermann de-husked Carafa I and III. Very smooth flavours. I
am just a really big fan of those malts.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg 


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:56:47 -0600
From: "Walsh, Susan" <susan-walsh at uiowa.edu>
Subject: THIRSTY homebrew Classic

THIRSTY, Iowa City, IA homebrew club is hosting their Homebrew Classic on
Saturday, Nov 8.  Judging will be held at Millstream Brewery in Amana, IA.
Entries are due Nov. 2. Check the web page for further information.
http://home.plutonium.net/~pdiltz/thirsty

Judges if interested also check the web page.


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:58:25 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Malt Conditioning

Jeff R recommended wetting malt before milling.  Malt Conditioning is 
actually a tried and tested method that is used in some large industrial 
malt mills.  I tried it myself this weekend while brewing my anual pumkin 
ale.  The results were spectacular.

I added about 1/4 cup of tap water to my 8.5lbs of grist before milling.  I 
mixed the grain very thourghly by hand to make sure all the malt was wetted 
then ran it through my JSP Maltmill at its normal gap setting.  The 
resultling ground malt appeared much closer to and ideal crush than what I 
get running dry malt through the mill.  The husks were much more intact 
while the starch material was well crushed.  There was also no grain dust in 
the air.

My mash efficiency came out at 90% which is about 5% higher than normal.  
I'll need to try this a few more times to see if the efficiency increase 
actaully correlates to the conditioning.  This grist contained roasted 
pumpkin and rice hulls which could have skewed the apparent efficiency.

The only problems with the process were that the malt needed some coaxing to 
drop through the mill and there was a build-up of starch material on the 
rollers, i.e. it caked onto the knurled rollers and had to be scraped off.  
Perhaps using smooth rollers or a little less water would keep this from 
happening.


Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:59:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Isaac Gibson <interGalactic at wildglobe.com>
Subject: grain beetles

I just bought some grains that have a bunch of beetles in it.
How do I get rid of them?  I was thinking about a very low 
heat roast but I have about a hundred pounds of it.  Can I
mash them?  Will that affect my beer?  There are some larvae
in some of the bags.  Also, does anyone know anything about
golden promise.  I really like it as far as flavor but I don't
know anything about enzyme content, body, etc.  TIA guys.



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:24:37 -0800
From: "Dan Hansen" <dan at hansen.org>
Subject: Counter Pressure Bottle Filler

I recently acquired a counter pressure filler and have had varying
degrees of success. This biggest problem I have had is with lack of
carbonation. I have kegged the beer, carbonated, and maintained it at 40
degrees and 10 psi prior to bottling. The beer if fine when coming from
the tap, but is relatively flat when poured from the bottle. The only
thing I can surmise is that the space left in the neck of the bottle is
too great, causing the beer to go flat. Any suggestions? Colder? Higher
pressure? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Dan



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:30:21 -0500
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: re. need advice on fruit beer

Dane Mosher asked about making a fruit beer using
Wyeast 3763 Roeselare.

I have made 2 Oud Bruins with this yeast . Well, I am not sure if they are
100% to style but I don't sweat about styles anyways.

I can dig up the recipes somewhere...But they used pale malt, a little
chocolate malt, plenty of dark crystal, wheat malt, as well as small amounts
of special B, flaked corn and some munich + vienna as well...Lightly hopped
(I think I used willamette plugs). Pitched the 3763...racked, and bottled
maybe a month later... Oh, and I added some french oak chips (for a 5 gal.
batch, about half an ounce. Boiled first) to the secondary....For one batch,
I left it as-is. For the other, I added crushed cranberries.

They both turned out fantastic, really, one of my best beers ever..Surpassed
only by my infamous Smoked Belgian Porter.

I thought it would require months and months...Really it was good after a
month, though required a few weeks of bottle aging for the oak to mellow out
a bit before it was great.

It wasn't as sour as I expected. Wyeast says if you re-use the yeast the
resulting beer will be progressively sour. perhaps more months in secondary
would have caused it to sour a bit more.

Anyways, I will look for where I wrote it down, but that is basically it.

John





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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:39:05 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: need advice on fruit beer


> It's in the early planning stages, but it looks like I
> am going to get married this coming June.  I plan on
> making many many beers for the event, one of which
> will be a fruit beer for my sweetheart.
>
> I'd like to make one with some character if possible.
> I wouldn't think kriek or framboise lambic is possible
> in 7 months.  Is there something else that anyone can
> recommend that could be finished in time?

Apricot Honey Ale is my recommendation because everyone seems to like it,
even the weirdos who claim to not like fruit beers.

Made it for my wedding, it was a real winner.  It can be made in two months
if necessary.  It is not sour.

Email me for the recipe, but be sure to specify extract or all-grain.



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:03:08 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: Brown malt

I am unable to comment personally on the taste and effect of brown malt in 
porter.

However, Keith Thomas in an article on porter in Zymurgy (Vol 19 No 2 
Summer 1996) wrote that after 1817 porter made with black malt was cheaper 
than that made with brown. He goes on to suggest that shifts in color and 
taste accompanied the malt change but seems to suggest these were secondary 
to the economic benefit.

Out of curiousity, are you roasting your own brown malt or using 
commercial? Others certainly know better than I, but I have heard that 
modern brown malt is not equivalent to the original brown malt and may not 
be appropriately used for 47% of the grist. If you are using commercial 
brown malt and are of an experimental mind, go ahead, and please report 
your results.

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:29:11 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: fruit beer

First off, congratulations, Dane.

Second, I haven't gotten around to experimenting with sour browns, so I 
don't know about making an Alexander-Rodenbach-like beer.

However, I did recently make a raspberry porter that my wife and I loved. 
It had plenty of roasted and hops flavors to stand up to an overt raspberry 
taste and aroma. It was also slightly tart from the raspberries.

For 5 gal:

6 lbs Munton's light dry malt extract
1 lb Briess 80L crystal malt
 .5 lb Briess black patent
3 oz Cascade hops pellets (6.6% alpha acids)
White Labs Irish ale yeast
6 fl oz corn sugar (priming)
5.25 lbs Trader Joe's frozen raspberries

Steeped specialty grains. Conducted 60 min boil adding hops at 60 min till 
raspberries (allowed to warm up somewhat) added to hot wort. Pot covered 
and allowed to steep for 15 min. Wort cooled, added to fermenter, aerated. 
Yeast pitched. 7 days later, racked into secondary. 7 days after that, 
racked into bottling bucket with priming sugar and bottled.

The beer was a bit cloudy at first so a little pectic enzyme in the 
secondary might not have hurt. Also, for a public event, I suggest letting 
it age for a month after bottling to allow the various flavors to meld 
(although it is good at any age).

Hope this helps.
Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:21:38 -0500
From: nwillis at temple.edu
Subject: Maudite

I have been searching for a recipe (all-grain or extract) 
for Maudite (from Unibroue) and haven't met with any 
success.  It is one of my favorites and I would love to 
attempt brewing it.  Does anyone have a recipe/suggestions 
for brewing this beer?

Many thanks for your help.

Nate
nwillis AT temple.edu


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:20:21 -0500
From: "Ken Smith" <ksmith at 2trak.com>
Subject: Bavarian Beer Halls

Hello all,

I'm getting ready to go on a trip to Bavaria. I know there are beer 
halls in abundance in Bavaria, but I was wondering if anyone had any 
recommendations on ones that might serve a better variety of styles or
more than one brewery's beers. I understand beers are very regional in 
Germany, and sure would hate to go over there without being able to try 
some Alt or Kolsch just because I'm in Bavaria. Any tips for this soon 
to be thirsty traveler would be appreciated.

Brew on!

Ken Smith
Intervale Brewing Company=20
Intervale NH






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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:48:21 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: System Efficiency & Nosparge calculations


When we speak of brew system efficiency, aren't we actually talking
about Lautering efficiency? The efficiency of the mash itself is only
affected by water/grain ratio, temperature, time, the degree of grain
crush, and by the properties of the grain itself, which I will ignore
for this discussion. The lautering process leaves some gravity behind in
the grain, and this amount can be affected by the sparging process -
varying water temps, rates of flow, channelling, etc. But if we just
drain the mash liquor, there shouldn't be any such effect because the
mash liquor SG is a constant value.

So, given a specific water/grain ratio, temp, and time, and assuming a
consistent and uniform crush (which may be possible for an individual)
then when you mix any amount of grain at a fixed water/grain ratio at a
fixed temperature for a fixed time, the SG of the mash liquor should be
the same, and should therefore be calculable, right?

If so, if we then vary the water temp, or water/grain ratio we should be
able to calculate a new SG value by using a formula.

With such a formula, for no sparge brewing I should be able to predict
exactly what my SG would be for any reasonable grain amount, water/grain
ratio, and temperature. Any ideas on how to develop a formula for this
other than generating x number of data points by trial? 

Is there a known practical upper limit to the aforementioned SG of the
mash liquor?



Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR




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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:08:42 -0800
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: US (English) vs. Metric vs Imperial

Just to jump on -S' comments re weight and measure...

<snip>  The "deal" is that no one has banned the old US-English units for 
trade use....

In Canada, they did ban the use of Imperial (for a time in the late 70's 
IIRC), although you can still by an 8' long 2" by 4" stud  or a 4' x 8' 
sheet of 3/8 plywood and most grocery advertising now features both Metric 
and US "English"units (just that at the till it is solely metric).

<snip>.....That suites my libertarian viewpoint just fine.

I don't disagree, however to leave politics out of it, the biggest reason I 
miss the _Canadian_ English (Imperial) measures is that a pint of beer 
_USED_ to equal a little over 19 ounces (served as 20 and not the 16 ounce 
American pint) and a gallon of gas (or milk) was 4.54 litres and not 3.78 as 
it is now.  As Canada has abandoned Imperial, the alternate standards have 
become the somewhat skimpy US units.

It may seem simple-minded to the higher thinkers on the digest ;) but the 
biggest thing that irks me about any of this is getting a short pint.


Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:48:42 -0800
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pitching Rate for Barleywine

I am planning to do a "barleywine" (maybe not big enough for the true sense 
of the word) by brewing an existing IPA recipe and simply taking the first 
runnings.  My guess is that it will yield about 3 gallons at 1.090 SG.

In light of recent comments by Dr. Cone and others regarding the 
difficulties with oxygenating high gravity worts, adequate pitching rates 
for big beers and the abundance of resources built into the dry yeasts, I am 
going to try the Lallemand/Danstar Windsor dry yeast (I recently tried the 
Nottingham on a cream ale - two 11 gm packets in 23 litres at 1.044 SG - and 
found it a little too neutral for my tastes although very clean and dry for 
an ale).  Perhaps a first fermentation with the Windsor with the Nottingham 
to follow to get the character _and_ the attenuation.

I planned to use three 11 gram packets of the Windsor initially, and given 
the recent "overpitching thread" would like to hear opinions re: pitching in 
a high gravity wort and whether I would be inviting unnecessary off flavours 
by doing so.

IIRC, The 11 gram packet states that it is for use in between one and six US 
gallons.



Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:37:45 +1100 (EST)
From: petr.otahal at aardvark.net.au
Subject: Re: tempering malt -> metric system/Ox[yi]Clean

HBD Headline:

The mysterious "-S", turns simple throw away post into 80+ line extravaganza!

Thank you for correcting my calculations anonymous "-S".

Cheers and back to beers
"Petr of Oz"

We're off to see the wizard...



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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:31:38 -0500
From: "David King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Bottling Foam 

This is the 1st time I've ever had problems with beer foaming up when trying
to bottle it.  I usually use 1056 Wyeast, but this one was 1098, after 21
days of primary plus secondary.  It was still bubbling, but really show,
like every 5 minutes or so, from a standard "S" shaped plastic lock.

While filling the bottles, there was some bubbling in the tube from my
bottling bucket, which has a bottom side spigot to a hose, and then into one
of those bottling canes with the "push to release" valve in the bottom of
it.  Most bottles foamed up out of the top when the liquid was only at the
bottom of the bottle neck (refillable bar type long neck bottles).  I let
them sit for a while and filled them up most of the rest of the way.

I racked the Brown Ale onto the cooled, boiled priming sugar solution and
then sanitized the bottles, but it couldn't start CO2 production that fast,
could it?  I don't think I had any air leak.  The beer was setting at about
69F, and the brewery did get to 72 while working on this.  Maybe I just
didn't cool the sugar solution enough, and it warmed the beer enough to
release some CO2, due to the higher temperature.

This was an annoyance, but the bigger issue is: will I have bottle grenades,
oxidized beer ????  I've bottled about 30 batches, and this is the 1st time
for the foam problem.  Suggestions of where that gas came from, what went
wrong?  Thanks,

         Dave King (BIER, Brewers In the Endicott Region)



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