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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  REMINDER-Talk Of Iowa-Beer Show-With Garrett Oliver ("Rob Moline")
  re: System Efficiency & Nosparge calculations ("-S")
  Double mash with gelatinized pearl barley ("Charles Binkley")
  RE: Barleywine pitching rates (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Bottle foaming (Michael Hartsock)
  St. Sebastiaan Belgian Microbrewery (R.A.)" <rbarrett@ford.com>
  re: grain beetles (Lee Ellman)
  RE: grain beetles ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Malt Conditioning (Christopher Swingley)
  RE:  Counter Pressure Bottle Filler ("Houseman, David L")
  Re;  Bavaria ("William Frazier")
  advice on fruit beers; quick Oud Bruin ("Raj B. Apte")
  RE: Local brewing clubs in [Southern NH]? (Jonathan Royce)
  ramifications of too high temp. ("steve lane")
  re:brown malt ("Andy and Tina Bailey")
  RE: Counter Pressure Bottle Filler (stjones1)
  RE: Sankey keg mash tun capacity ("Leonard, Phil")
  Re: Brown malt ("Greg R")
  Aurora Colorado Brewpubs ("Leonard, Phil")
  Flemish Red Ale; cloning Duchesse de Bourgogne; why I hate European Brewers ("Raj B. Apte")
  Counter Pressure Bottle Filler ("David King")
   ("Rob Moline")


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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:32:54 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: REMINDER-Talk Of Iowa-Beer Show-With Garrett Oliver

			REMINDER-Talk Of Iowa-Beer Show-With Garrett Oliver
Folks,
	The WOI/WSUI Radio Semi-Annual Beer Show on "Talk Of Iowa," hosted by
Katherine Perkins, will be coming to you on the 29th of October, 2003, from
9:00 AM CST, until 10:00 AM CST, on 640 AM radio and 910 AM radio regionally
in the Midwest, and via webcast.
     This semi-annual Beer Show will feature award winning brewer and author
Garrett Oliver.
	Web listeners can go to www.woi.org and  click on the green audio streams
link, then the AM Radio link.....
      ....or http://wsui.uiowa.edu/talk_of_iowa.htm and click on Listen to
WSUI....

Cheers!
Rob Moline

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:01:14 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: System Efficiency & Nosparge calculations

Steve Jones writes,

>When we speak of brew system efficiency, aren't we actually talking
>about Lautering efficiency? The efficiency of the mash itself is only
>affected by [...] which I will ignore for this discussion.

If you ignore the mash and factor out the malt, then yes, the extraction is
only related to the lauter.  That's a bit unrealistic as mash conditions
vary and impact the extraction substantially.

The common HB method is to calculate the actual extraction (for example 30
degree-gallons/lb or 250 degree-liters/kg) and then compare this with the
reference extraction rate we expect from the particular grist mix.  (say 37
deg-gal/lb or 308 deg-L/kg for a pale malt).   This means that we are
factoring out the differences *expected* due to malt, and just examining the
differences due to the processing of the malt(mash & lauter).

I dislike this method since the reference values (e.g. 37pgpp for pale malt)
are generic and inaccurate.  OTOH this has the great advantage that we are
measuring our brewing process (plus the hopefully small variations of the
malt properties from the reference).   As brewers we should strive to
measure (and then control) the brewing process.

Another method is to compare the actual extract vs the absolute extract (as
if all the malt mass went into solution, 46deg-gal/lb 386dL/kg or whatever).
This measures the malt, mash & lauter efficiency all together.

I'll also note that the HB method of calculating extract is wrong.  The
degree-gallon or degree-liter is a myth, but such figures are even used in
the pro-lit.

>The lautering process leaves some gravity behind [....]
> But if we just drain the mash liquor, there shouldn't be any
>such effect because the mash liquor SG is a constant value.

I see your point.  *IF* we measure the 'first wort' SG & volume, and compare
the extract to the malt-reference, then this tells us about our mashing
process, rather than the lautering part or the malt characteristic part.

>So, given a specific water/grain ratio, [fixed mash properties]
> the SG of the mash liquor should be
> the same, and should therefore be calculable, right?

Right, but there are a lot of factors to consider there, pH and water ions
missed your list and are important.

>If so, if we then vary the water temp, or water/grain ratio we should be
>able to calculate a new SG value by using a formula.

Yes, and it's been partly done.  You can find curves of extraction vs time &
temp in M&BS and other brewing texts.  I've several papers covering
extraction at various water:grist ratios.   Unfortunately you can't really
expect these curves to apply (except as generalities) across different
malts.  Without studies we'll have a hard time coming up with more that a
generic curves.  Still in principle you are right.

>With such a formula, for no sparge brewing I should be able to predict

I like your idea a lot.  Even if only generic curves were available
we could make a practical estimate of mash efficiency as a separate item
and this would allow us to factor out lauter efficiency separately too.
Great idea.

I believe the approach could be a lot like the ersatz hop extraction
modeling formulae that abound (Tinseth, Rager etc) in that the many
disparate factors which go into the calculation are modelled as independent
factors even when they are not truly independent.  It forms a nice rule of
thumb despite limitations.

>Is there a known practical upper limit to the aforementioned SG of the
>mash liquor?

Yes, it's the solubility limit of extract in water.   That's above practical
consideration I think.

>Any ideas on how to develop a formula for this
>other than generating x number of data points by trial?

We can start w/ the text curves and try to characterize these with formulae.
We should also think thru the physics of the process and make sure the model
features match known physical properties. That's one place where the hops
formulae are quite weak.

Unless there is a lot of HBD interest in the actual creation of this model ,
I'd suggest this discussion go offline and periodically report back to HBD.
Anyone else interested in participating, drop me a note with "Extraction
Model" in the subject line:  <-s at adelphia.net>  .  If the list it too
long for a reasonable discussion I'll push this back onto HBD.

Steve Jones - is this  <stjones at eastman.com> an address you can use for
such a discussion ?

 -S(teve Alexander)




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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:42:41 -0500
From: "Charles Binkley" <cdbinkley at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Double mash with gelatinized pearl barley

New guy here!  I have been a lurker for many months now and would like to
thank you to all for this forum!  I have learned and incorporated much into
my brewing from viewing and reading posts.

Now for my million dollar question. I have brewed many times successfully
with rice and corn as adjuncts in the typical double mash manner.  Is there
any difference in the sugars extracted between an all grain mash with all
malted barley VS. doing a double mash with malted barley & gelatinized pearl
barley?

I guess essentially my question is.....is it possible to create the same
relatively exact beer by doing an all grain mash VS. a double mash with some
malted barley and gelatinized pearl barley?  If possible how would you
determine the grain amounts in the recipe?

Thanks
Chuck Binkley



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:58:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Barleywine pitching rates

Dale asked about pitching rates for a barleywine.  

I just pitched nottingham into a 1.093 barleywine
three days ago.  I used one 11g packet and after 6 hrs
it was bubbling away quite nicely.  I wouldn't
hesitate to use two, but three is unnecessary and
potentially damaging.  

I'm considering pitching champaign yeast into the
secondary, because I want it to finish at about 1.015.
 Does anyone have any adivce for or against this?

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:01:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Bottle foaming

I'm no expert, but if you're beer was still bubbling
after 21 days and foaming at bottling, I'd be worried
about somesort of contamination.  Did you taste it?

Michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:08:17 -0500
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: St. Sebastiaan Belgian Microbrewery

Has anyone had a chance to visit the new St. Sebastiaan
Belgian microbrewery in Spring Hill, Florida?  They opened on
October 1st .  The brewster is Leen Sterkens from the 
same Sterkens family that brews St. Sabastiaan in
Belgium.  We are making our way there this weekend to
visit and see how Belgian beers are received in Florida.
I'll send my report when we get back. 

We make the beer we drink!!
Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, MI
(2.8, 103.6) Rennerian


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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:53:11 -0500
From: Lee Ellman <lee.ellman at cityofyonkers.com>
Subject: re: grain beetles

I can't help you with the technical malt information
but I urge you to consider getting rid of the grain 
beetles and all before you have a constant annoying
infestation.  Whatever you paid for it is not worth 
the problems you are going to have.

We brought some of the little beasties
into our kitchen (we don't know how) and it has 
been a constant battle over the years with them.
Plastic does not seem to keep them out of cereal boxes. 
The infest tea bags, oatmeal, just about anything 
that we don't use up quickly.  It is depressing to
want some hot cereal and to measure it out only
to find a colony of the little bastards.  I throw out
food, clean up the area and still they come back.
I keep my brewing supplies far away from the 
kitchen and under tight cover.

Does anyone know of an effective trap/non-toxic solution
to this annoyance?




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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:41:10 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: grain beetles

Isaac,

Don't heat the malt; this will change its character (like denature enzymes).
Rather freeze it.  I've had a similar problem and simply bagged the malt in
ziploc freezer bags and froze them for several days.  No problem with the
beetles after that.  I don't believe any residual bugs in the malt had an
affect on any of the beers.  You can always sift the malt afterward to get
them out.

Dave Houseman




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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:44:43 -0900
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: Malt Conditioning


Doug Hurst writes about his tempering malt experience:
> Jeff R recommended wetting malt before milling.  I tried it myself this 
> weekend while brewing my anual pumkin ale.  The results were 
> spectacular.
 
<snip>

> The only problems with the process were that the malt needed some 
> coaxing to drop through the mill and there was a build-up of starch 
> material on the rollers, i.e. it caked onto the knurled rollers and 
> had to be scraped off.

I also tried tempering malt this weekend, but used more water than Doug 
did -- I used a previously reported 2 T / pound, which for my 12.5 
pounds was 1.5 cups of water.  My results were not good.  I got through 
about three quarters of the grind before the roller (single roller 
Philmill) was choked with starch.  I wound up drying the remainder in 
the oven for half an hour at 250 F.

All was OK in the end, and I got a reasonable efficiency for my system.
But be careful how much water you add, and how well you mix it in.  I 
thought I mixed it well -- I spent about 20 minutes with a big spoon 
pulling grain up from the bottom of a bucket to the top to stir -- but 
in fact, there was a bunch of grain on the bottom significantly wetter 
than the rest.

Probably worth doing a small sample before your brewing session so you 
don't wind up in a panic on brew day!

Chris
- -- 
Christopher S. Swingley          email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program         Please use encryption.  GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks   www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:46:40 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  Counter Pressure Bottle Filler

Dan,

I don't know about others, but I've found that I have to ratchet up the
pressure in my kegs quite a bit to offset the loss in carbonation at the
time of bottling.  So I'll carbonate in my kegs up to say 30 psi.  Then just
prior to CPBFing I'll release some of the pressure and fill the bottles.  10
psi may be the proper dispensing pressure for your taps and hoses but not
necessarily the right pressure for the losses in the CPBFer hoses and
pressure that escapes from filling to capping.  Go with a much higher
pressure and see if that doesn't work. You can always release pressure to go
back to serving from your taps.   I haven't measured the PSI in the bottles
but the process seems to work for me.   

Dave Houseman




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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:22:59 -0600
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re;  Bavaria

Ken - If you have a car you really should drive down to Mittenwald.  It's
just south of Garmisch-Partenkirchen.  This is an easy and beautiful drive
south of Munich.  Mittenwald is the poster child for Bavarian Towns.  It's
nestled right under the Alps and they brew the best Helles Beer I've ever
had right in town.  Matter-of-fact if I was going to Bavaria I would stay in
Mittenwald at the Alpenrose Hotel and take some side trips to Ludwig's
castles.  Neuschwanstein and Linderhof are easy drives through the mountains
from this great little town.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas




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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:49:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: advice on fruit beers; quick Oud Bruin


John Misrahi described his Oud Bruin made with Wyeast
3763 Roeselare

John,
How long ago did you try this? I would imagine that
you would get exploding bottles or that the flavor
would change in bottle (get more sour and horsey). My
Oud Bruins take six months to get really sour (pH 3.2)
and another six to get stinky (in a Brett sort of
way). I once bottled at 3 months and got pellicles in
the bottles. They came out great, but a pellicle is
not good for presentation.

raj



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:32:50 -0800
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: RE: Local brewing clubs in [Southern NH]?

Jim Cairns asked about brewing clubs in the Northern Massachusetts Southern New 
Hampshire area? 

I'm not a member, but I do know that there is a brew club in Southern NH called 
Brew Free or Die. Their website is http://www.bfd.org.

I've thought about joining a couple of times, but their meetings are Friday 
nights, which I (and more importantly SWMBO) find rather inconvenient. 

HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:48:09 -0600
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: ramifications of too high temp.

>From clone brews, we brewed a 5 gallon batch of SNPA, all grain using a 10 
gallon Igloo cooler for the mash tun.  You guys know the set up... Phil's 
phalse and a ball valve on the outside.  We thought all was well until we 
realized 20 minutes into the mash, the thermometer was not working properly. 
  We proceeded to stick another in and found our mash temp at 162 F....   
EEEEEKKKK !!!!!! W ade a run for the water jug and got it cooled down.
We settled at 154 and all proceeded as planned.  Run off was good and 
sticky, SG was 1.049  Looks like we got a good conversion but at was cost to 
the quality of this brew?  I was afraid that we'd killed off the enzymes but 
from my SG I think we're OK.
Any ideas on what we can expect?



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:18:04 -0800
From: "Andy and Tina Bailey" <atmlobailey at cox.net>
Subject: re:brown malt

First thanks to the many public and private responses on brown malt and
porter. WOW!

In response to Robert S. In Arlington, VA asks:

"Out of curiousity, are you roasting your own brown malt or using
commercial? Others certainly know better than I, but I have heard that
modern brown malt is not equivalent to the original brown malt and may not
be appropriately used for 47% of the grist. If you are using commercial
brown malt and are of an experimental mind, go ahead, and please report
your results."

Since this is my first venture into the world of brown malt I am going to
use a commercial variety so that I know if the beer sucks, it isn't because
I did a bad job creating brown malt. Also Robert sort of dares me to go
ahead with my proposed grain bill, and report back. I think that got enough
responses that say "DON'T DO IT!!!" that I'll be a little more conservative.
Sorry Robert and fellow HBD'ers.  ;-)   I will report back, but it may be a
few months before it is brewed and drinkable.

Just curious, anyone experiment with brown malt in Stout? It seems from the
previous responses that it would add some nice complexity to a stout in
addition to the "required" roasted barley.

Thanks again for the responses!

Andy Bailey
Las Vegas, NV



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:01:25 -0500
From: stjones1 at chartertn.net
Subject: RE: Counter Pressure Bottle Filler

Dan Hansen asks about counterpressure filling.

Dan, I had similar problems when I first started using a 
cp filler. Instructions said to set the pressure to 5psi, 
chill everything, and hope for the best (not really, but 
that's the way it seemed). I always had lots of foam and 
 mixed results until I gave it some thought.

Foam is a result of the changing of pressure from hi to 
low, which is what you get when you cp fill. I started 
setting my pressure to just a few pounds above equilibrium 
(you say 10 psi at 40F - that is about 2.3 volumes CO2), 
then I'd flush and pressurize the bottle, open the beer 
line, and slowly release pressure. Foaming is a minimum 
and I don't have a problem with undercarbonation.

See my website for additional info 
(http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/members/sj/cpfiller.html)

Steve



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:09:00 -0600
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: RE: Sankey keg mash tun capacity

>Second:  How much (pounds) grain can I safely mash in a half barrel, sankey
>keg mash tun?  I've got a flat, perforated steel false bottom in it that
>just covers the concaved portion of the tun.

I use a 1/2-bbl Sankey and just a week ago Saturday I had 36 pounds of
grain in there.  I batch sparge and the first batch was right up to the top 
of the keg.  

Philip
[612 251.4 AR] Overland Park, KS


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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:39:03 -0600
From: "Greg R" <gmrbrewer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Brown malt

Andy asked about brewing a porter with a lot of brown malt.  In Tuesday's 
HBD, we saw quite a range in opinions regarding how much brown malt to use.  
Drew said to use the brown malt very sparingly, Brian said 8% worked well 
for him, Darrell suggested no more than 10-17%, while Harlan reported 
favorable results from using 33% brown malt in his porter.  I'm wondering if 
this is simply an illustration of widely varying personal preferences, or 
are these brewers using vastly different brown malts?

BYO recently had a recipe for traditional porter along the lines of 
Harlan's, using one third each of pale, brown and amber malts.  I was 
thinking about giving it a go, but now I am a little gunshy about using that 
much brown.  Harlan commented that next time he might up the pale to 50% and 
use 25% each of the brown and amber.  That is still quite a bit more brown 
malt than Drew, Brian and Darrell recommended.  My local supplier carries 
Marris Otter brown malt by Crisp, but I have never tried it to test its 
impact.  Will 25% be too much?

Cheers,

Greg



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:04:09 -0600
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: Aurora Colorado Brewpubs

I'm going to be in the Aurora, CO area next month.  Any brewpubs or tap rooms 
out that way?  

Philip
[612 251.4 AR] Overland Park, KS


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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:15:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: Flemish Red Ale; cloning Duchesse de Bourgogne; why I hate European Brewers

All,

I posted a while ago asking for help cloning Duchesse
de Bourgogne. Since my post seemed to generate only a
bit of interest, I have been forced to write up my
current attempts to make a Flemish Red Ale. If you are
interested in the style, I encourage you to take a
look and send me your comments.

www.parc.com/apte/flemishredale.shtml

The last bit of my subject heading is a joke: I'm a
cheese-eating surrender-monkey Europhile. But it seems
to me that most European brewers would rather die and
take their individual styles with them than share
their secrets. The Belgians are particularly good at
this (all the business about Brettanomyces wafting
into the cooling attic at Cantillon--in the middle of
downtown). Those of you who have won awards for sour
ale, let's share some of that knowledge so bozos like
me don't have to re-invent everything.

thanks,
raj





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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:06:51 -0500
From: "David King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Counter Pressure Bottle Filler

Dan Hansen posted;

 I recently acquired a counter pressure filler and have had varying
 degrees of success. This biggest problem I have had is with lack of
 carbonation. I have kegged the beer, carbonated, and maintained it at 40
 degrees and 10 psi prior to bottling. The beer if fine when coming from
 the tap, but is relatively flat when poured from the bottle. The only
 thing I can surmise is that the space left in the neck of the bottle is
 too great, causing the beer to go flat. Any suggestions? Colder? Higher
 pressure? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 Dan

Counter pressure bottle filling is an interesting study in gas and liquid
physics.  I've had good luck with dropping the temperature to about 30F,
with about 25 psi of CO2 for about 2 or 3 days before bottling.  This really
loads it with CO2.  When bottling, I insulate the keg, to hold the temp low
while bottling.  Then you purge the bottle with CO2, pressurize it to about
11 psi (keg also reduced to this pressure now).  Then you close the CO2
valve and open the beer valve, nothing happens, right?  Hold the filler
tightly down on the bottle, and very slowly let the gas bleed out, which
will slowly replace it with beer.  It'll foam some, so let it overflow, in a
catch container.  When you get to the top, close the beer valve, and bleed
off the rest of the pressure, remove the filler and cap it.  You'll have
plenty of carbonation.  It is hard to precisely control, but works fine for
me.  The key is to keep the beer under good pressure, and quietly fill the
bottle without much action.

      Dave King (BIER)
      [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:57:52 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: 

queue

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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