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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Munich/Andechs (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Brown malt - and how to make it... (Grant Family)
  RE: Barleywine pitching rates (Michael Hartsock)
  water chemistry 'spurmint (Marc Sedam)
  re: grain beetles ("Drew Avis")
  milk stouts? (Bob NGHAB Paolino)
  RE: grain beetles (Brian Lundeen)
  RE: Water chemistry experiment (Steve Jones)
  Last minute tips for LA ("Philip J Wilcox")
  RE: Brown Malt/Old British Beers Book (neils)
  Re Temp Gradient in Mash Tun ("Raj B. Apte")
  My rims & homebrewing pages done at last! ("Gary Smith")
  Re: St. Sebastiaan Belgian Microbrewery ("manny bonewitz")
  re: grain beetles (Derric)
  Conical bottom dump valve options ("David Reed")
  Re: Saison (Greg Peters)
  RE: water chemistry experiment ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: Brown malt (Jeff Renner)
  re: flemish red ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: Grain Beetles ("Gary Smith")
  Grain Beetles and DE (Dean)


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:38:04 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Munich/Andechs

Hi all
The Kloster Andechs is between the Ammersee and the Starnbergersee.
If you go there, don't forget to eat a Oabatzta with a Brezen(Prezel).
There is a very good book written by a andechser monk.
(It's about god, the world, beer, eating, healing and history)
But i don't know wether it's available in english.
here's the link to their homepage:
http://www.andechs.de/englisch/service/anfahrt/index.html
Have a good time there.(It might be nicer in summer)

Thomas



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:51:30 +1100
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Brown malt - and how to make it...

G'day

Jeff teasingly mention that "Old British Beers and How to Make
Them" describes how to make brown malt at home. C'mon, then!
Spill the beans... (or does this breach copyright...?)

John Palmer's quintessential text talks briefly about toasting
malt at home and says that pale malt, if given a little while in the
oven and a certain temp (I've forgotten the figures), will yield
something similar to commercial brown malt.

Two questions then; if you've got pale malt and an oven...
 - How do you emulate modern brown malt?
 - How do you make brown malt AND retain it's enzymes?

TIA
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:48:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Barleywine pitching rates

Rob asked me to elaborate on potentially damaging
pitching rates:

I was referencing a thread from a while back (I
believe it was dr. cone's fortnight of yeast) where
over pitching was suggested as damaging to the beer's
flavor.  I think it was due to over production of
esters, but maybe someone with more authority could
elaborate.  

Michael
Columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:35:25 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: water chemistry 'spurmint

Jeff,

The best experiment would be to use distilled water.  Your problem is 
going to be the calcium levels in the water to ensure proper conversion. 
 If you can get your hands on calcium chloride to the tune of 50ppm in 
the water, that's the way to go.  You could use slaked lime to get 
calcium in the water too, but it may drop the pH too much.  

I'd prefer the lime addition (since the other ion is -OH, which is 
already in the water, versus Cl(-) which is not) but wouldn't do it 
without a pH meter handy to ensure the pH of the mash is in the 5.2-5.5 
range.  My gut tells me you could add enough lime to hit the 50ppm Ca 
threshold and still convert the mash, but you may not want to take the 
chance.

Cheers!
Marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:35:23 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: grain beetles

Chad Stevens contemplates giving up judging in favour of coordinating
competitions because the thought of bugbier gives him the willies.  I
seriously doubt that *any* malt is completely bug free - there must be a
huge number of mites, spiders, beetles, and assorted bug-bits picked up by
even the cleanest combines and malting operations!  Though I understand
modern bugs are more fully modified and don't need a protein rest. ;-)

Anyway, last year our club caught wind of a supplier in the area looking to
dump some old malt at half price, so we bought the lot.  Unfortunately, this
stuff hadn't been stored under ideal conditions, and many bags had been
punctured or ripped, some repaired with duct tape!  And some had serious bug
infestations.  Some of us felt as Chad did, could not contemplate full-on
beetle beer (myself, for example), and donated their malt to others.  Others
had no problem at all using the malt and went on to make excellent beer,
some of it picking up medals at March in Montreal and the Aurora Brewing
Challenge (sorry if I've just made some judges in Montreal and Regina feel a
little ill).  I've tasted 4 different beers made with this bugmalt, and even
as a former BJCP judge, I couldn't pick out any carapace or antenna
flavours.

As programmers often say, don't think of them as bugs, think of them as
undocumented features!

Cheers!
Drew Avis ~ Ottawa, Ontario
- --
http://www.strangebrew.ca
"I bet one legend that keeps recurring throughout history, in every culture,
is the story of Popeye."


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:09:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Bob NGHAB Paolino <nghab_hbd at yahoo.ca>
Subject: milk stouts?

Someone who posted to our HB list is planning to make
a sweet stout and is wondering when to add the
lactose.  I have always heard of it being added during
bottling to sweeten the finished beer, but the person
who is planning to brew one this weekend has
apparently also heard advice to add it midboil.  I can
speculate about reasons why the latter might not be
appropriate, but I don't know.  Any thoughts?  I'll
forward a summary to the brewer.  Thanks.

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino
Madison





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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:41:41 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: grain beetles


> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:04:26 -0800
> From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
> Subject: re: grain beetles

The 
> thought of even
> potentially having to judge "Beetle Beer" gives me the 
> willies 

You will definitely want to stay away from wine then, Chad. Anyone that has
ever made wine from grapes knows full well the amount of "added protein"
that finds its way into the fermenter. Sometimes you'll stop and admire the
lovely colours if an especially attractive specimen comes into view, but
mostly it's just into the crusher with nary a second thought. They are
largely innocuous, although as the Ontario winemakers discovered to their
chagrin, the Asian Ladybird beetle contributes a character not unlike peanut
butter.

The point is, there are people around the world that see a nice, plump bug
and think to themselves, "hmmm, dinner". We are far too squeamish in these
parts. On Mondays, the evening meal often seems to coincide with the
"gross-out" segment of Fear Factor. My wife wants me to turn it off, but I
just look on in amusement. OK, I'm not saying I'd eat the stuff, but I can
at least look on and watch other people doing it. And I'll bet a plateful of
cow's eyeballs would do wonders at keeping the in-laws' visits down.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:39:35 -0500
From: Steve Jones <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: Water chemistry experiment

In Thursday's digest, Jeff Gladish wrote:

> The question is, should the other brew use distilled
> water or my normal, soft well water?


Sounds like a good experiment to do. Last year for teach a 
friend day we brewed 3 batches of the same recipe, but 
each batch had one thing changed. Batch 1 was a basic 
amber ale using Munton's yeast, the second batch used 
Wyeast 1084, and the third batch used Muntons's but had 1 
extra pound of light DME added. A month later we 
re-convened and sampled all three - there were some 
remarkable differences.

Anyway, for you second batch I'd use distilled water, but 
would add salts to mimic your water. That way the only 
differences between the two batches are the salts, and not 
some other unknown factor in your water. Of course, that 
might inspire you to brew a third batch, using your water.

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:31:33 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Last minute tips for LA





Hi all,

I didn't get much help for the L.A. area. The MCAB was at LAX 2 years ago,
where did you guys go for a pubcrawl? Ill be staying 10 min from LAX in
Marinia del Rey before trepsing through the smog and smoke to Brea
(Anahiem). I will especially have Sunday Nov 2 open though I will have my
daughter with me...

Thanks for those of you who gave me good suggestions for San Francisco. How
close is Anchor to the Toranado?

Is "Randy from Modesto" still out there? I would love meet you some time
next week for a beer someplace. Ill be in Modesto Wed-Sunday with not much
to do...

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden - Prison City Brewers
AABG, AHA, BJCP, MCAB, Etc., Et all ...




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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:35:29 CST
From: neils at texas.net
Subject: RE: Brown Malt/Old British Beers Book

On the topic of Brown Malt Jeff Renner recently quoted from Dr. Harrison's "Old 
British Beers and How to Make Them". I agree wholeheartedly with Jeff - 
everyone interested in historic brewing should have this book. There's a new 
(quoted as final) version available. The website "www.beerinnprint.co.uk" has 
this new version as well as a mind boggling selection of other beer related 
books. Owner Paul Travis is a great help and prices are very competitive. Paul 
is also the bookshop man for the Brewery History Society. CAMRA members (as 
well as non-members) can also purchase it from the CAMRA website.

Slainte!
Neil
Spake



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:40:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re Temp Gradient in Mash Tun

Steven Bellner writes about temperature gradients in
his mash tun.

Steven,

I had this problem. My set up was a 40 L stainless tun
with false bottom. For a while, I removed the fixed
thermometer, bought a big stirring paddle, and used
the handheld to measure when I was finished stirring.
Then I bought a Brewbuddy pump. Recirculation is SOOO
much better and the temperature control is very nice.
I just used barbed hose connectors to connect the pump
and improvised a return manifold from a bent piece of
copper tubing. 

I didn't have problems with HSA with the stirring, but
it takes a lot of stirring to even a mash. If you use
direct heat, recirculation is great.

raj



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:20:17 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: My rims & homebrewing pages done at last!

Hi,

I've finally gotten a round Tuit & have finalized for the moment o'course, 
my homebrew page & my RIMS page (accessed from my homebrew 
page). There's more I could add to them but it would be a pretty lengthy 
download speed for those not on broadband if I did so I'm stopping the 
pictures where things are.

Just finished tasting my IPA I made with it & I have got to say I'm 
deliriously happy. I've yet to keg the wheat I made but the fermentation's 
over & it's ready to go. I used 70% wheat 30% Muntons British 2 row & got 
absolutely no hint of compaction with the RIMS at all. I'm thinking of trying 
a 100% wheat batch to see if that's even possible without having any 
husks or hulls in the mash-tun. 

I've always been one to excess...

Cheers,

Gary Smith
CQ de KA1J
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:35:31 -0500
From: "manny bonewitz" <bonewitz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: St. Sebastiaan Belgian Microbrewery 

: Has anyone had a chance to visit the new St. Sebastiaan
Belgian microbrewery in Spring Hill, Florida?

Yes, I was there last weekend and they are open for business and serving 
beer.They currently have 3 beers on tap with the possibility to add a 4th  
specialty brew.

Novice light - a light golden similar to Stella
Spring hill blond - An unfiltered ale similar to Leffe Blond with around 5% 
ABV
1731 dark - was a double style with a light malt flavor and around 5% ABV

The brew house is 8.5 barrel infusion system. 4 fermentors with pressure 
relief to naturally carbonate while fermenting. The beer was pumped into an 
aseptic poly bag inside the serving vessel that can handle pressure. The 
beer was dispensed using compressed air to squeeze the beer from the poly 
bag. They get 2 uses from the bags. A brewer from Belgium was over to train 
more personal. He was very knowledgeable and brewed at "T Pakhuis a brew pub 
in Antwerpen. He said they have to brew 3-4 times per week to keep up with 
demand. They also had typical Belgian dishes some prepared with the beer. 
The place seats 300 people and is large for a brewpub. They do not have a 
bottling or keg line and the sign says brewers since 1731. It is worth a 
visit if you are in the area.

Manny,
Clearwater Florida



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:59:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Derric <derric1961 at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: grain beetles


> We brought some of the little beasties
> into our kitchen (we don't know how) and it has
> been a constant battle over the years with them.
 ...
> Does anyone know of an effective trap/non-toxic
> solution to this annoyance?
                                                      
                         
Yes, there is an effective, non-toxic solution.  We
had the same problem, but with "meal moths" ... They,
or the larve, will eat thru anything - plastic bags
and cardboard included.

The solution is to go buy a lot of HARD, air
tight plastic containers and put EVERYTHING in
your kitchen into them.  You have to keep the lids
tightly closed for as long as you still have the
problem.  Eventually you can relax some, but we
still keep the most likely targets sealed well.
We still often see one of the little moths
flying thru the house, so I know they're
still around, waiting.....

We do see weevils (those beetles everyone is talking
about, I think) also.  Usually they are in newly
brought-in grain products: flour, corn meal, dog
food, etc.

I think these pests are probably one reason why
our forefathers used to keep/buy everything in tightly
sealing tin cans (which has gone out of favor due
to plastic and cardboard).

Derric




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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:56:04 -0800
From: "David Reed" <dsreed1 at msn.com>
Subject: Conical bottom dump valve options

I am considering the purchase of a 7.1g (stainless steel) Conical. I am 
hoping to get some advice regarding the bottom dump valve from those who 
have experience with them. Most models feature a 1/2" full port ball valve - 
which seems undersized (prone to clog?) and also has threaded fittings. With 
all the attention given to "perfect welds" it seems self defeating to equip 
such units with threaded fittings. Morebeer.com offers an upgraded version 
that features a sanitary 1.5" butterfly valve instead of the 1/2" ball, but 
it is the opposite extreme on size and I wonder if it is unmanageable or 
less efficient. I would be grateful to hear any advice or insight from those 
who have experience with either option. Thanks. 


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:02:50 -0800 (PST)
From: gregbrews at webtv.net (Greg Peters)
Subject: Re: Saison

Darrell made a request for another Saison recipe on HBD 4381 so here one
of my latest efforts.
This one was a single infusion mash for     90 min.  at  152F and mash out
 at  170F.
Ingredients:
10# Pale malt
2# Belgian pale malt
2 oz. Brown malt
1/2# Wheat malt
1/2oz. Cascade hops  at  6.5 AAU
2oz. Styrian Goldings hops  at  4.0 AAU   
1/4 tsp Cardamom
1/2 tsp Coriander seeds
3/4 tsp Orange peels
1/2 tsp Curacao
1 cup corn sugar for priming
White Labs Saison Yeast #565
Oh, by the way, this was all for a 5 gallon  batch.  OG 1.056, FG 1.009
Fire Up!
Greg
El Cajon, Ca.



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:27:59 -0500
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard at trow.com>
Subject: RE: water chemistry experiment

Jeff Gladish asks about conducting an experiment on contrasting water
profiles.  Jeff attributed the original experiment in his post to John
Palmer, but it was Al Korzonas who unsuccessfully tried the experiment at the
AHA convention last summer.  The beers had not cleared yet.

With regard to the use of distilled water for one of the brews, I have to say
that it would not make a great deal of difference in the mashing performance.
With distilled water, the residual alkalinity is at zero, so mash pH should
be fine.  One of the contributions of calcium in the water is to react with
the grain to produce the desired pH effect.  You wouldn't be relying on that
reaction since the residual alkalinity is already in the correct range.  The
calcium also aids the yeast nutrition, but what the heck...its an experiment!
I suggest using the distilled water.  It will work.

The Burton profile is quite troubling.  I've done extensive research and
analysis on published Burton profiles and I can say that many have got to be
incorrect due to ion imbalance.  I also suggest that the true Burton waters
may be too heavy on magnesium and sulfate for 'comfortable' consumption.  A
laxative effect can be produced.  

I suggest a toned down Burton profile like Ken Schwartz recommends.  If you
want to stretch it a little higher toward the Burton profile, I suggest the
following additions to distilled water.  2 gm/gal gypsum, 1 gm/gal Epsom, 0.3
gm/gal table salt, and 0.5 gm/gal chalk.  That gets the hardness up over 500
ppm and the sulfate is almost 400 ppm.  That compares to hardness over 900
ppm and sulfate over 600 ppm for what I can decipher for the Burton profile.
The magnesium level in my recommended profile is still a very moderate 26 ppm
compared to the 60 ppm for the Burton profile.  Magnesium can be an
unpleasant taste contributor.

That chalk addition probably has to be added to the mash to get it to
dissolve, but the water does need it to provide the alkalinity to balance the
hefty hardness that you're adding.

Go for it Jeff, I'll expect to have a taste of the brews at the Big Bend
Brewoff in January.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:15:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Brown malt

Geoff Cooper of the Durden Park Beer Circle in London has added these details:

On Wednesday, October 29, 2003, at 10:55  pm, Jeff Renner wrote:
>Do you think that the production of old brown malt involved mostly 
>radiant heat or was it conductive/convective?  Have Durden Park 
>folks reproduced this?

There was a lot of radiant heat from the fires so we think it was 
probably mainly radiant heat but, of course, whatever the malt was 
resting on must have got hot so .... and, of course there is always 
convective heat in any 'oven'. So I normally avoid that by answering 
that it was roasted at a high temperature over very hot fires.

I'm not aware of anyone at Durden Park trying to reproduce this.

Also, there's often discussion about brown malt being smokey. Whether 
it was or not remains conjecture - John found no firm contemporary 
evidence one way or the other. It might have had a very slight smokey 
character from the wooden fires used in malting but, as any 
pyromaniac who lights bonfires or campfires will tell you, once a 
wood fire has got very hot there is very little (or, indeed, no) 
smoke given off anymore. So it would certainly not be as smokey as 
some advocates profess (if at all)

Cheers
Geoff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:29:37 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: re: flemish red

Raj,

Your contribution (flemmishredale.html) is greatly appreciated and I eagerly
await input from those who have gained some modicum of success with this
stile as well.

How's the "Duchess de Tamarindo" coming?

Chad Stevens
San Diego



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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:25:07 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Grain Beetles


 
> Subject: Re: grain beetles
> 
> I also used to have problems with small grain beetles when storing grain
> 
> I found a neat solution when I read about a guy on a yacht who used this
> method to keep his cooking flour bug-free for a very long period.  It works
> very well for storing grain.
> 
> This is how I do it:
> Place the grain in a container that can be sealed.  
> Get some "dry ice" (compressed CO2) from an ice cream vendor.  
<snip>
> I suppose instead of dry ice, a slow feed from a CO2 tank, until the O2 has
> been replaced, should also work - haven't tried it though.

How funny, I came up with this idea too. Not the dry ice but rather CO2 
from the tank. I figures they weren't anarobic critters and when I opened 
my grain canister (plastic trash can) I found not beetles but the larvae. I 
think they migh be the source of the myriad of small moths I would find in 
the basement...)

I removed some grain & that's when I found them munching away. I 
disconnected the snap-on for the corny keg & brought the hose to the 
bottom. I gave 10 seconds of solid blast & stuck my nose in the top of the 
can & it was full of CO2.

I went back 3-4 days later and checked & 90% were dead (couldn't find 
many live ones, didn't see the dead...) So I did the same thing again & 3 
days later all was well on the Western front.

OTOH, My brew with the bugs in it was pretty good... Considering all the 
microscopic life that's in the grain anyway... their big cousins can't make 
much of a difference. besides, think of the high quality protein in those 
little buggers..

Cough cough


Gary

Gary Smith
CQ DX de KA1J
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html
http://musician.dyndns,org.rims.html

"Give a man a beer and he'll drink for five minutes.
Teach him where the beer is, he'll drink for a lifetime and get it his own 
damn self".




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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:00:57 -0800
From: Dean <dean at deanandadie.net>
Subject: Grain Beetles and DE

Doug Hurst suggests using DE to get rid of beetles.  Many commercial grain
farmers use this in their silos. 

A warning. 

DE is great for all kinds of insectcide applications - you can even put it in
your pet's food to control internal pests.  There are two grades of DE and you
*must* get food-grade to avoid nasty chemicals.  DE may be purchased at some
garden supply stores, but check the label to see if the manufacturer mixed in
any type of agent to attract insects.

An internet search should turn up sources of food-grade diatomaceous earth.

- --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs
- --
Take your time, take your chances
[2045.2, 273.7] Apparent Rennerian
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It matters not how strait the gate / How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the master of my fate / I am the captain of my soul.    -- Invictus --
                                                        -- William E Henley --


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---