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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: System Efficiency & Nosparge calculations (John Schnupp)
  RE: brown malt (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: grain beetles ("Llew J v Rensburg")
  Re:Brown malt ("Grant")
  bugs in the malt (Darrell.Leavitt)
  Brown malt and stout (Darrell.Leavitt)
  Bavarian Places (rickdude02)
  One More "You Know You're an HBD Addict When..." (Jonathan Royce)
  Re: Malt Conditioning / Brown Malt ("Drew Avis")
  grain conditioning (matt hardesty)
  re: grain beetles ("Chad Stevens")
  Temp Gradient in Mash Tun ("Steven P. Bellner")
  Re: brown malt (pt. 1) (Jeff Renner)
  Re: brown malt (pt. 2) (Jeff Renner)
  Re: grain conditioning ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Re: Grain Beetles ("Doug Hurst")
  Re: Re: Brown malt (Robert Sandefer)
  Re: Barleywine pitching rates ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Meeker makes the news (David Towson)
  Immersion Chiller ("Jon Czerwinski")
  RE: Subject: Counter Pressure Bottle Filler ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re: brown malt (Jeff Renner)
  re: grain beetles + Counter Pressure Bottle Filler ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Impact of Old Grain ("H. Dowda")
  Aquarium pumps and charcoal filters (Stephen T. Kajdasz)
  water chemistry experiment ("Jeff & Ellen")
  Fw:  AFCHBC Judging Announcement ("Chad Stevens")


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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:30:22 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: System Efficiency & Nosparge calculations

From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
>Unless there is a lot of HBD interest in the actual creation of this model ,
>I'd suggest this discussion go offline and periodically report back to HBD.
>Anyone else interested in participating, drop me a note with "Extraction
>Model" in the subject line:  <-s at adelphia.net>  . 

I certainly can't provide much, if any, input it determining the model.  I
would be interested in following the discussions if you decided to pursue
creating a model.  Periodic reports on the HBD would work for me.


=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:37:45 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: brown malt


> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:39:03 -0600
> From: "Greg R" <gmrbrewer at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Brown malt
> 
> I'm wondering if 
> this is simply an illustration of widely varying personal 
> preferences, or 
> are these brewers using vastly different brown malts?
> 

I expect there is much more variance coming from personal preference than
from malt differences.

My lone foray into brown malt use is hardly enough to determine what my own
limits are, let alone yours. I suspect, given my preferences for more
caramel, less roasty in brews of this nature, that I probably would not want
to pursue any experiments in high percentage brown malt use. 

I generally take the approach, which is likely to produce something that I
will find undrinkable? Too much or too little? With me, it's usually too
much. Others who really enjoy extremes could take the opposite tack. 

Brewer, know thyself, and listen to your inner voice for guidance. ;-)

Cheers
Brian 



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:31:32 +0200
From: "Llew J v Rensburg" <llewellynvr at mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: grain beetles

I also used to have problems with small grain beetles when storing grain

I found a neat solution when I read about a guy on a yacht who used this
method to keep his cooking flour bug-free for a very long period.  It works
very well for storing grain.

This is how I do it:
Place the grain in a container that can be sealed.  
Get some "dry ice" (compressed CO2) from an ice cream vendor.  They use it
in those cooler boxes at the beach, games, etc.  Place a small piece of dry
ice on top of the grain.  (I use about half a cup of dry ice on 100 pounds
of grain in a 25 gallon drum).  Place the lid on, but do not tighten - leave
space for the gas to escape.  The dry ice dissolves, giving off CO2, which
is heavier than air, and therefore settles between the grain, pushing out
the air. When it is finished dissolving, close the lid tightly.  No oxygen
for beetles to hatch.

I haven't had any problems with grain beetles since I started using this
method years ago.  I have found that the grain stays clean with only one
"charge" of CO2.  Just make sure you close the container after taking out
some grain.  

I suppose instead of dry ice, a slow feed from a CO2 tank, until the O2 has
been replaced, should also work - haven't tried it though.

Greetings

Llew
South Africa



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:19:45 +1100
From: "Grant" <gstott at primus.com.au>
Subject: Re:Brown malt

In digest number 4386 Andy asked about experiences using brown malt in a
Stout.

I'm sure Jeff Renner will chime in here. But just in case, Brown malt goes
exceptionally well in a stout.
 I had some brown malt that I bought on a whim when we first started to get
access to imported malts over here. (heartfelt thanks go to Wes Smith)
After seeing numerous comments about how astringent it could be I was
wondering what to do with it, when I saw a post from Jeff with a stout
recipe using a proportion of brown malt. The resulting stout that I brewed
was not only enjoyed immensely by myself but did well in both inter-club &
state wide competitions so when Jeff re-posts his recipe I say go for it.


Grant  Stott
[9906, 260] AR (statute miles) (Aust)





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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:12:08 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: bugs in the malt





Isaac;

 Make sure you do a protein rest for those bugs!


 ..Darrell



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 05:05:58 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: Brown malt and stout





Don't do it....I did so with Fawcett's a few years back...ask some of the
folks on the digest who remember...it was all brown malt...and it did NOT
convert...and it tasted like S$# at .....like I had used coffee grounds
 ....and I had to toss it....ask Jeff Renner...I bet his memory is good on
this 'spuriment....

I am sure that there are huge individual differences with regard to our
taste for brown malt...but all brown is clearly over the top...

Happy brewing!

 ..Darrell



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:10:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: rickdude02 at earthlink.net
Subject: Bavarian Places

I missed the actual post, but assume that Ken is
looking for some cool places-- and beer!  It's 
funny that Mittenwald was mentioned because
my brother-in-law was just telling me that I 
had really missed out by not making that side-
trip. 

But has anyone mentioned Andechs?  It is a 
brewing monastery about 60-90 km west of
Munich.  I think it's on lake Amersee (and 
the spelling doesn't look right, but phonet-
ically, that's the lake).

Definately hit Andechs-- the beer is fabulous
and the food is good, hearty, and copious.
Not to mention the place is beautiful.  Ask
someone in the tourist trade in Munich and 
they should be able to give you directions.
The owner of our pension knew exactly where
it was.

Rick Theiner


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 05:14:25 -0800
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: One More "You Know You're an HBD Addict When..."

I can't remember if it was here or on r.c.b. that there was a "You Know You're 
a Homebrewer When..." thread awhile back, but Rob Moline adds an interestering 
twist to the notion:

You Know You're a HBD Addict When...

 ...You use the "queue" feature on the server so that you can get a preview of 
the next day's HBD. Not that I've ever done that myself.... 

;-)

Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:03:28 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Malt Conditioning / Brown Malt

Chris and Doug mention that they get gummed up rollers when they temper
their malt.  I believe that you may be milling the malt too soon after
adding the water.  I always weigh the malt into a cooler, sprinkle with
water (1T / lb), then leave it overnight to absorb the liquid.  The next day
the malt isn't even noticeably moist - but it does seem a bit softer, and it
mills beautifully.

Greg R asks about the variations in the recommended "maximum" amount of
brown malt from various homebrewers, and wonders if it's personal taste, or
different brown malt varieties.  I believe it's both.  I'm very sparing with
this stuff due to an unfortunate incident using waaay too much - so though I
never use more than 5%, 10% may be a more realistic maximum for my tastes
given that Brian used 8% of my very own malt and was happy with the results.
I've only used Hugh Baird and Fawcett brown malts, which are surprisingly
similar.  Others may be quite different, who knows?

Drew Avis ~ Ottawa, Ontario
- --
http://www.strangebrew.ca
I can please only one person per day.  Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either.


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:33:11 -0800 (PST)
From: matt hardesty <mlhardesty at yahoo.com>
Subject: grain conditioning

regarding grain conditioning:

i am new to the practice also but have had good
results (it's worth the effort for just the reduction
in grain dust).  the 2T(ablespoon)/pound application
rate seems rather high, however.  i have had good
success with 1-2 t(easpoon)/lb.

also application of the moisture may be an issue.  it
sounds like you have dumped the water into a bucket of
grain and stirred.  you should try misting small
portions of the grain bill with a spray bottle as you
dump grain from one buckut into your hopper or into a
second mixing bucket.  small children or wives work
great for assisting in this operation.

matt



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:04:26 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: re: grain beetles

Isaac:

This is just too juicy to pass up.  First and most obviously, the vendor
should make good on their poorly stored product.  If this is not an option,
my second choice would be to feed it to the doves that congregate on the
hillside under the cabernet and merlot in my backyard.  But if this malt is
that special to you, you can either freeze it or put it in a barrel/trash
can and purge with co2 to snuff them out.

Beetles being a lovely source of exogenous enzymes, they should help in
conversion of the malt.  But do me a favor, if you live in the Southwest,
don't enter "Beetle Beer" in first round nationals.  The thought of even
potentially having to judge "Beetle Beer" gives me the willies and opens a
Pandora's box of unnerving possibilities I'd never allowed myself to
consider.  Was that pilsner last year "catty" or had Tabby marked the malt?
"Mouse Drop Dunkle?"

You've given me new reason to judge coordinate the next one rather than
judge.

Thanks,

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:03:21 -0500
From: "Steven P. Bellner" <sbellner at chartertn.net>
Subject: Temp Gradient in Mash Tun

I have a pretty standard converted keg mash tun with a domed false bottom
with a thermometer installed about 2" above the bottom head weld.  The
thermometer probe sticks in about 1-1/2 inches.  I have calibrated this
thermometer against a hand-held thermometer at several temperatures, and
both thermometers read exactly the same.

Now my problem arises just after dough-in.  There appears to be a
temperature gradient formed such that my probe  reads about 5 deg. F lower
than if I stick the hand-held in the mash and move it around.  This is a
real problem if one wants to be precise in their mash temperatures.  This
sort of makes sense though.  Heat rises, so one would expect the top of the
mash to be warmer than the bottom.

Here is where it gets confusing.  I began to move the hand-held around in
the mash in various locations.  When it was held near the probe, the
temperatures matched.  Move it towards the top, and the temp would rise.
But when I stuck it in the false bottom, the temp rose as well.  It appears
as though the temperature gradient from bottom to top goes through a local
minimum right where I have my probe installed.  I wonder if the heat
capacity of the metal is causing the bottom temperature to stay elevated?

It would seem the only way around this problem is some form of continuous
mash agitation to add some forced convection to the contents.  I don't have
a HERMS, but it would seem that mash liquor recirculation could also solve
the problem.  In all of the home brewery designs I have looked at, there
didn't appear to be a device used to address this issue.  Do others
routinely see this problem?  Would gentle continuous agitation cause HSA
problems?  Perhaps it is just a matter of learning the nuances of my system
and learning to compensate, but it sure would be more reassuring to me to be
able to look at the thermometer and know that is the current mash temp.

Steven P.  Bellner
sbellner at chartertn.net




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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:09:20 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: brown malt (pt. 1)

Andy Bailey <atmlobailey at cox.net> of Las Vegas, NV has started a 
nice discussion about brown malt and asks for a stout recipe using it.

As has been pointed out, brown malt was the original malt used in 
porters.  This was produced differently than modern brown malt in 
that it was diastatic, but I do think that the modern is the same 
color as historic.

The very fine little book "Old British Beers and How to Make Them" 
(2003 third edition) by Dr. John Harrison and the Members of The 
Durden Park Beer Circle has a good discussion of the various historic 
malts and their use in historic recipes.  I recommend this book.  I 
think it now available from some US suppliers.  You can also get it 
from CAMRA or from Durden Park member Geoff Cooper in London if all 
else fails (contact me for his email).

BTW, there is a great story in the beginning of the Durden Park book, 
regarding how authentic the recipes might be:

"The only honest answer is that for the majority of beers described 
there is no way we can ever know.  The exceptions are those beers 
that remained virtually unchanged up to 1914. [me - WWI brought 
drastically reduced OGs from which British beers never recovered]  In 
1973 when we started the programme, there were some people around, 
aged 79 and older, who were in their twenties in 1914.  Such people 
might remember drinking pre-1914 beer.

"We encountered one such person by accident.  On Christmas Eve I left 
a few pints of draught Whitbread's 1850 porter with a brewing friend, 
Don Hebbs.  I heard the rest of the story two weeks later.  On 
Christmas morning he asked his daughter's fiance's grandmother - a 
spry old lady of 86, if she would like a bottle of Guinness.  On 
getting her approval, he went and fetched a pint of my Whitbread 
porter.  The old lady took a swig and turned a beady eye on Don, she 
took another long pull, looked him straight in the eye and said, 
"That's not Guinness, that's London porter!  Where on earth did you 
get that?"  Don was totally flabbergasted.  he did not know that the 
old lady knew what porter was, never mind able to recognise it.  It 
transpired that she, as many girls did at the time, entered domestic 
service when she was fourteen.  As was the custom then, she was given 
so many pints of porter as part of her board.  When porter 
disappeared she switched to Guinness.  It took only a third of a pint 
of porter to set those memories flooding back."


My understanding is that the historic brown malt was kilned more 
slowly so as to preserve the enzymes, but modern maltsters don't 
bother since the malt isn't used as 100% of the grist.  Harrison 
writes that brown malt (also called porter malt) "was also known as 
blown malt due to the popping of the malt during production.  Modern 
brown malts are roasted differently and do not pop during production; 
neither are the diastatic.

With the invention of the hydrometer and its application to brewin in 
the late 18th century, it was discovered that brown malt, while 
cheaper per unit than pale malt, was actually more expensive to use 
as it yielded 15% less fermentables.  In 1817 D. Wheeler invented the 
cylindrical drum roaster which allowed the controlled roasting of 
grains without charring them.  Naturally, the product was called 
"patent" malt.  Harrison writes that within five years most London 
porter brewers switched to pale malts plus a portion of black patent 
malt.

While the new porter looked the same, there was a difference in 
flavor but this was accepted by consumers.

My project for next brew (probably this Monday) is a recipe from the 
Durden Park book, either an historic porter with a high proportion of 
brown malt or a strong (1.062) bitter based on an 1880 recipe from 
the Simonds brewery in Reading.  Harrison describes this as a 
favorite of the beer circle.  It uses some home roasted pale amber 
malt.  The book describes how to produce this as well as amber and 
brown malts.

BTW, some of the recipes call for large portions of brown malt, even 
a few with 100% ( plus brewing enzymes). I say, go for it, Greg.  25% 
doesn't sound at all too high, but you'll need to give it some age.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:11:59 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: brown malt (pt. 2)

On to Andy's request:

>Just curious, anyone experiment with brown malt in Stout? It seems from the
>previous responses that it would add some nice complexity to a stout in
>addition to the "required" roasted barley.

I posted this to HBD in Jan, 2002.  A brewer in Australia has brewed 
this with great success and has taken at least one prize in 
competitions there (I think several, actually).  I have brewed it 
since using two-row pale malt rather than six-row.  A single step 
infusion mash would work fine.  My RIMS makes multiple steps easy.

  From the HBD archives at http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3845.html#3845-10 :
========
When I visited Ireland, I preferred the mellower, chocolately 
Murphy's stout to the ubiquitous and somewhat sharper Guinness, and 
used some brown malt I had to advantage in a successful clone. 
You'll note that the 1.5 lbs used in 7.75 gallons jibes with 
Darrell's suggestion of one pound maximum in a five gallon batch.

Now I'd better get going and heat up my mash water! I'm brewing it today.


Brown Malt Stout (7.75 gallons)

13% 1.5 lbs Beeston's brown malt
2% 4 oz. Baird chocolate malt
6% 12 oz. Munton roast barley
20% 2.4 lbs flaked barley (from food co-op)
17% 2 lbs. Briess 6-row malt
42% 5 lbs. Durst pale ale malt

I used the six-row to make sure I had enough enzymes - might not bother again.

Mashed in 144F, raised immediately to target of 150F, rested 75 
minutes, boosted to 162F foam stand rest 20 minutes, then mashed off 
at 170F.

Hops (target 35 IBU):

3/4 oz. challenger plugs  at  10% target 23 IBU
1 oz. Target plugs  at  7%, target 12 IBU

75 minute boil, Irish moss last 15 minutes.

OG 10.4 P or ~ 1.042, FG 1.013

Yeast - 1.5 liter starter YCKC Irish ale yeast

Took two weeks in the keg to round out - a little like old coffee
grounds at first. Then very nice smooth, rich chocolately dry Irish
stout, rather more like Murphy's (the target) than Guinness.
Definite keeper recipe.
========

Let me know how it turns out if you brew it.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:30:18 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: grain conditioning

For the US-challenged, 1T is about 15ml and 1t is about 5ml. :-)  And 
within the precision needed for this particular application, 2lbs = 1kg, 
so you'd want to add 10 - 20ml / kg.

Totally OT: when I was living in Norway in 1979 I did a bit of cooking.  
The recipes I found used measures equivalent to the "English" teaspoon 
and tablespoon.  If I remember correctly, the "teaspoon" was called a 
"coffee spoon", and "tablespoon" was called a "soup spoon".  But I could 
be wrong.  I also remember measures like "coffee cup" (worked out to 
about 1/2 US cup or about 120ml).  So even places that are supposedly 
metrified still use some "old" measures.  (There was also the Norwegian 
"mile" which was "equal" to 10km.  I assume it was rounded from some 
older "mile" measure when they adopted the metric system.)

=S

>From: matt hardesty <mlhardesty at yahoo.com>
>Subject: grain conditioning
>
>... the 2T(ablespoon)/pound application
>rate seems rather high, however.  i have had good
>success with 1-2 t(easpoon)/lb.
>
>  
>



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:31:52 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Grain Beetles

Lee Ellman and others are having trouble with grain beetles.  One possible 
solution is to use Diatomaceous Earth as a pesticide.  DE is a fine powder 
consisting of various shaped (non-homogenous) fossilized organisms with many 
sharp edges.  It works as a filter-aid in brewing because its non-homogeny 
keeps it from compressing.  In pesticide use, it works by coating the 
insects then grinding through their exoskeletons and drying them out, i.e. 
they bleed to death.

It can be spread in infected areas, and even be mixed directly into your 
grain.  It should be used with care as you don't want to inhale it.  You may 
want to wear a dust mask during application.  I'm not sure of a source for 
DE.  A garden store may have it or perhaps a local brewery would be willing 
to provide you with a small quantity.  I'm assuming that the pesticide DE is 
the same grade and size as filter-aid DE.


Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:07:09 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Brown malt

Greg asks several questions about brown malt. Here's a somewhat jumbled 
response:

Modern brown malt is a roasted malt similiar to but less roasted than 
chocolate malt or black patent. As a roasted malt, it lacks enzymes. In the 
Zymurgy article "Perfect Your Porter" (Vol 19 No 2 Summer 1996) Terry 
Foster writes that modern brown malt is not the same as the original and 
recommends using no more than 1.5 lbs per 5-gallon batch.

On the other hand, historical brown malt does not (necessarily) lack 
enzymes and is not highly roasted. There seems to be some discussion about 
the exact characteristics of brown malt but everyone seems agreed that it 
was kilned more than pale malt. To my knowledge, there are no modern brown 
malts that match the original.

There are however ways of recreating historical brown malts by roasting 
pale ale malt in an oven (google search can find directions). IMO any 
recipe calling for brown malt to make up a quarter or a half of the grist 
is likely to be a historical recreation requiring the use of the less- 
roasted, home-made brown malt.

Based on all of this, I wouldn't personally use modern brown malt for more 
than 10-15% of a grist.
On the other hand, I would use historical brown malt for half or more of a 
grist.

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:58:01 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Barleywine pitching rates

> I just pitched nottingham into a 1.093 barleywine
> three days ago.  I used one 11g packet and after 6 hrs
> it was bubbling away quite nicely.  I wouldn't
> hesitate to use two, but three is unnecessary and
> potentially damaging.  

Can you elaborate on the "potentially damaging" part?



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:41:36 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Meeker makes the news

There is a nice article in this morning's "Baltimore Sunpaper" about 
homebrewing in Maryland, and the Cross Street Irregulars brewclub in 
particular.  Frequent HBD poster, Alan Meeker, is prominently featured in 
the article, including a photo.  Interested parties can view the article at 
http://www.sunspot.net/features/lifestyle/bal-to.brewers29oct29,0,5814684.story 
 .  It will be available for free access for 14 days.  After today, you'll 
be asked to establish a login account, but it's free.

Dave Towson
Bel Air, MD



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:46:34 -0500
From: "Jon Czerwinski" <joncz at mindspring.com>
Subject: Immersion Chiller

I found Ken Sullivan's plans for his four-tier chiller at

http://www.realbeer.com/spencer/kjs_chiller.html

I tried to email him and get some feedback on his experience with it,
but the email bounced.

Is anybody else familiar enough with this chiller to comment on it?

Jon Czerwinski
Atlanta, GA



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:11:06 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Subject: Counter Pressure Bottle Filler

Dave, here's how you do it:

  * First, get some mops and buckets nearby.
  * Then get the phone directory nearby open to your favorite house
painter's phone number.
  * Then if you are a believer, get a prayer book ready.

Ha Ha, the secret is cold, cold, cold. I have noticed that the first
draw likes to foam a lot until I realized that the serving hose needs
to warm up.  So.... what I do first is dispense myself a nice pint to
drink, then things move along much better afterwards.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:01:20 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: brown malt

Brewers

I cc'd my post to Geoff Cooper in London, who is quite involved with 
the Durden Park Beer Circle.  He has given me permission to post his 
comments.  I think him.  It sounds like reproducing historic brown 
malt would be a nice project.  I don't know whether the heat was more 
radiant than in modern kilns.  I have asked him if anyone across the 
pond had tried reproducing it.

Regarding the recipes he passes along.  It is probably a never ending 
and unresolvable question regarding exactly what is/are the 
difference(s) between porter and stout.  Historically, stout porter 
was a strong version of porter.

I hope anyone who brews this or tries reproducing historic diastatic 
brown malt will report back.

========
Geoff Cooper wrote:

On Wednesday, October 29, 2003, at 04:03  pm, Jeff Renner wrote:
>Andy Bailey <atmlobailey at cox.net> of Las Vegas, NV has started a 
>nice discussion about brown malt and asks for a stout recipe using 
>it.
>  [snip...]

>My understanding is that the historic brown malt was kilned more 
>slowly so as to preserve the enzymes, ...
>  ...  was also known as blown malt due to the popping of the malt 
>during production.

Brown malt was was (historically) roasted over hot fires (often 
including hardwood 'faggots'). The high temperature caused the 
popping. John's research appears to show that by roasting for a 
controlled period at high temperature, the outer part of the grain 
would roast (producing the colour) but the inside would remain much 
less cooked - a bit like a rare joint of beef or steak, coloured on 
the outside and only partially cooked on the inside. This inner core 
would remain pale and would retain the diastatic activity needed for 
the conversion.

This was clearly a skilled activity - both the amount of heat and the 
time had to be right to get acceptable brown malt.

>On to Andy's request:
>
>Just curious, anyone experiment with brown malt in Stout? It seems 
>from the previous responses that it would add some nice complexity 
>to a stout in addition to the "required" roasted barley.

Andy is quite right, small additions of other more lightly roasted 
malts can provide an improvement to the flavour profile of a stout. I 
can speak highly of the Usher's Stout, which also received 
independent praise in Brewing Techniques (sorry, the reference is not 
to hand).

 From edition 3 of Old British Beers:
   Stout (1885) Usher's Edinburgh    OG51
   per imperial gallon (1.2 US gallons):

   20 oz Pale Malt, 7.3 oz Pale Amber Malt, 5 oz Black Malt
   2.5 oz Amber Malt, 2.5 oz Brown Malt, 2.5 oz Crystal Malt
   1.33 oz Fuggles  (+ 0.1 oz Goldings dry hop)

   Single infusion mash.
=========
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:33:43
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: grain beetles + Counter Pressure Bottle Filler

Isaac Gibson has grain beetles in his malt and asked:  
>Can I mash them?  Will that affect my beer?  There are some larvae
>in some of the bags.  

I once got a 55# sack of pale ale malt which had maybe 1/2 cup of live
weevils in it- didn't notice any larvae.  I put the malt into cornie kegs
and purged/pressurized with CO2 via the brew-out fitting.  That killed all
of the buggers.  Kept it in the kegs and repressurized with CO2 after
opening to retreive malt for brewing just to be safe.  All the brews came
out fine.  If you have many more bugs, you might want to consider screening
the malt before brewing with it.

- --------
Dan Hansen posted about flat brew when counter pressure filling bottles.
If I have the time, I often increase the keg pressure by 5 psig or so
several days before bottle filling.  Don't try shaking the keg to speed
increased carbonation- it will cloud the brew if there is any sediment in
the keg.


c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:33:59 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Impact of Old Grain

What are the three most likely consequences when grain
that is too old and stored too warm is used in beer. 
Replies by E-mail are fine. Replies from people who
'think' they know, are not. TIA



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Date: 29 Oct 2003 20:28:46 EST
From: Stephen.T.Kajdasz at Dartmouth.EDU (Stephen T. Kajdasz)
Subject: Aquarium pumps and charcoal filters

Is it necessary to deodorize the air from an aquarium pump when using it to 
aerate wort? I have an in-line 0.2 micron filter, but I'm a little concerned 
about the rubber odor coming out.  I'd rather not have to make a charcoal 
filter if I can avoid it, but if it's for the good of the beer....  Thanks.

Steve Kajdasz
Lebanon, NH


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:14:07 -0500
From: "Jeff & Ellen" <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: water chemistry experiment

On Saturday for Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day, I'm going to brew two five
gallon batches of English pale ale with the only controlled difference being
the water chemistry.  I'll be trying to add to John Palmer's (?) experiment,
prepared for the AHA Conference this summer, to see how much the water
influences the hop expression.

One brew will use distilled water with salts added to mimic Burton-On-Trent
water.

The question is, should the other brew use distilled water or my normal,
soft well water?

My opinion is that using my normal brewing water would get better mash
efficiency than distilled water and would make the differences between the
two beers more likely to be boil/fermentation/hop comparisons rather than
efficiency comparisons.  But I like the idea of having such a stark contrast
in water chemistry by using distilled water to begin with.

What do you think?  Without doing three brews in the same day, which would
make the more telling experiment?

Jeff Gladish, Tampa



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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:27:55 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Fw:  AFCHBC Judging Announcement

 First Call For Judges and Stewards:

11th Annual America's Finest City
Homebrew Competition 2004 San Diego

Friday   Feb 27   6:00pm  St. Dunstans Episcopal Church, San Diego, CA
Saturday Feb 28   9:30am  St. Dunstans Episcopal Church, San Diego, CA

Please reserve these dates on your calendar.

Competition information is available at:

 http://www.quaff.org

Personal emails went out today to Southern California, Arizona, and Nevada
Judges.  If you didn't receive an email notification, please update your
email address with the BJCP.

If you are interested in Judgeing or Stewarding regardless of where you
live, please send me an email:

zuvaruvi at cox.net

Directions to St. Dunstan's and additional information can be found on the
web site.

Cheers,

Chad Stevens
AFCHBC Judge Coordinator
QUAFF
San Diego




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---