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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: HBD Digest, Category 24 & Honey beers, Recap: First (Bill Tobler)
  dryhopping ("Dr. Rodney Wild")
  re: Flocculated yeast ("-S")
  Re: Basement Brewing Ideas (Todd Goodman)
  RO water (Marc Sedam)
  Water profiles ("A.J deLange")
  Basement brewery ("3rbecks")
  Loathing the water in Las Vegas ("Doug Hurst")
  Basement brewery ("Tom Clark")
  Re: Basement brewery ideas ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Basement brewery (Leo Vitt)
  Re: Grain mills ("Thomas T. Veldhouse")
  adding lactose in stouts ("mike sullivan")
  burner sooting (Craig Agnor)
  Re: tacking oxygen utilization [follow up to Steve's response] ("Fredrik")
  yeast in space (carlos benitez)


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Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:55:05 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: HBD Digest, Category 24 & Honey beers, Recap: First

Dave Houseman corrected me the other day when I stuck my foot in my mouth.

That particular morning, the two or three Honeywheats must have really
clouded my judgment, as I didn't express what I was trying to say at all
about where to put a Honey Wheat beer in the style categories.  (I was just
off of graveyards) I have stewarded before, and I know the judges don't see
any information on the beers, except in special categories.  I guess what I
really wanted to say, but in no way said it, was that Honey Wheat beers
could have their own subcategory, if their was enough interest.  I really
haven't been to enough competitions to know how many Honey Wheat beers are
entered.  I agree with Dave Houseman's comments completely.  I just didn't
say what I wanted to.

The Barleywine I brewed a few weeks ago turned out great.  To recap, I
brewed a 5 gallon batch of Cream Ale the week before, pitched WLP001,
California Ale yeast, and pitched the Barleywine on top of the yeast cake.
The mashing went great, I ended up with 4.5 gallons of 1097 wort.  I decided
not to jack the OG up with sugar or DME.  The BW took off in just a few
hours, and finished at 1020.  Hydrometer tasting was very impressive.  It's
in a 5 gallon keg at 50 degrees conditioning.  I'll probably leave it there
for 4 or 5 months then bottle.

I made 2.5 gallons of a smaller beer off of the second runnings.  OG was
1066, pitched a pack of Nottingham and it finished at 1018.  I'm thinking of
turning this into an IceAle.  The latest BYO was talking about Eisbocks and
it sounds like fun.   I guess that would be Cat. 24 too?

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:25:02 -0900
From: "Dr. Rodney Wild" <rwild at ptialaska.net>
Subject: dryhopping

I just put two ounces of loose hops on top of 11 gall. IPA that is sitting
in a 15 gall. conical.  My problem is that about a full ounce is not in
contact with the beer.  Will it eventually come into contact, or have I
wasted some hops?
Thanks,
Rodney



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:23:22 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Flocculated yeast

I'm just catching up on digests and saw this red herring ...
Dave Burley writes,

>SteveA seems pretty sure that flocculated yeast cannot metabolize sugars.

That's *NOT* what I wrote    Freshly flocculated yeast are usually alive and
are to some extent fermenting carbohydrates.  The problem is NOT that
fermentation stops but that it is far too slow to avoid flavor and autolysis
problems.  It's slow because the yeast have lost the ability to reproduce
and so their energy requirements are tiny and so they consume sugars slowly.

My point is that when growth stops (always due to environment) that the
yeast energy req drops to a very low level and so fermentation slows to a
snails-pace.   For brewing yeast the inability to grow can also trigger the
NewFlo flocculation mechanism, but that's secondary to the real problem that
yeast ferment very slowly because they cannot grow.  Stirring cannot reverse
flocculation and reversing flocculation wouldn't create growth conditions
necessary for fast fermentation anyway. ((even non-flocculent yeast can
stick)).

>  I also doubt
> that dropping the yeast had much to do in the way of incorporation
> of oxygen

M&BS page 668, "Dropping the fermenting wort [[after 24-36 hours]] has the
advantage that (i) cold trub and other undesirable materials are left in
the first vessel, [...] (ii) mixing and AERATION.  Many brewers with and
without facilities dropping, mix and AERATE by rousing [[with paddles or
pumps and sprayers]]".  This is in the context of a paragraph that described
the need for aeration of wort.   Kirsop also demonstrated ["Oxygen in
Brewery Fermentation", JIBv80, pp252-259] that several of these highly
flocculating British ale yeasts, like NCYC228 - the Sheffield yeast, which
require dropping also have high oxygen requirements.

>Yeast growth ( if by that Steve means yeast <population> growth) has little
> to do with the metabolism of sugar by live yeast.

Every chemostat study I've ever seen says otherwise.   In the fermenter
sugar is the PRIMARY source of energy and the primary USE for energy
(upwards of 90%)  is in creating new yeast mass. Growth always refers to
yeast mass, and that's normally directly related to population.  In
fermenter, sugar is the primary source of carbon for cell biosynthesis too.
So growth is directly dependent on sugar fermentation in the brewery, and
sugar fermentation rate is strongly dependent on the rate energy is used for
growth (relatively minor amount used for cell  maintenance).

> BUT removing the yeast from the
>playing field by precipitation or reducing the area swept by a yeast cell
> due to flocculation will be expected to slow fermentation.

The folks who have developed immobilized yeast fermenting systems will be
disappointed to hear that their systems - in experimental use for over two
decades - cannot work according to Dave !   Some cellular growth systems,
like acetic acid bacteria,  primarily consist of stationary cells and have
no problem sucking all the nutrient out of the media.   Settling all the
yeast to the bottom will slow but certainly not stop fermentation and I
believe this should only have a minor impact on rate.   Honestly Dave -
calculate what wort of sugar concentration gradient could possibly be
maintained for even an hour across a 30cm fermenter and you'll no doubt see
that mixing the yeast and sugars is an inconsequential factor.   Brownian
motion will handle the mixing well enough that yeast need never leave the
fermenter bottom I think.

 -Steve Alexander




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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:57:44 -0500
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Basement Brewing Ideas

Don Anderson writes:
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> I have just moved into a new house and I now have some space I can dedicate
> just to brewing.  I have searched the archive and searched the web (google
> is your friend) looking for ideas on just how to lay things out.  I was
> wondering if anyone with a basement brewery would be so kind as to pass
> along any lessons they have learned from doing something similar.  Things I
> already have planned are:
> A large sink and counter space.
> Tiled floor with drain.
> Some type of fixed stands for my HERMS rig that's under construction.
> Storage shelves or cabinets.
> The room was built for a gas fireplace so it already has gas plumbing and a
> metal chimney. I am going to change over from propane to a gas burner and
> get some type of hood to connect to the chimney.  There is also a large
> window in this room that I can open if needed.
> 
> Safety gear: CO2 detector, fire detector, fire extinguisher, GFI wall
> sockets.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.
>  -Don

Don,

It sounds like you've hit the major things you'll want (and the safety
items especially.)

Other things you might want to think about are:

Hot and cold outdoor faucets (over your sink) so you can screw a bottle
washer and hose for chilling directly onto it.

I also added an overhead beam with trolley and hoist to help lift kegs
into and out of my chest freezer.

I needed a large diameter gas feed for my commercial stove which had to
be run right from the gas feed into the house (1" instead of 3/4" which
the rest of the house used, if I remember correctly...)

I have some pics of my old basement brewing setup and my new setup at:

http://ww.bonedaddy.net/tgoodman/brewerypics

Regards,

Todd

Leaving Westford, MA shortly for some warm weather riding in Oz


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Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:41:21 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: RO water

Just one comment on a home installation of RO water in brewing...

I'm sure someone will have the "right" number, but from my days in the 
lab I seem to recall that it takes four gallons of tap water to produce 
one gallon of RO water.  So using RO at home will increase your water 
and energy bills significantly.  Perhaps best to go buy the RO water at 
one of the various co-ops that seem to sell it...they probably have a 
water recovery aspect for the effluent that doesn't make it as RO water.

Cheers!

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:46:37 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Water profiles

I  just want to add a bit to the idea

"You also want to be aware, if you aren't already, that the published 
water
analysis of major brewing areas aren't necessarily what they are brewing
with."

There is a good reason why many of the published profiles are not what 
the brewer is working with and that is because many of the published 
profiles do not describe physically realizable water unless you want to 
entertain pH's that are well above reasonable (9 - 11). If you take the 
typical profile from a book or magazine article and calculate the pH 
necessary to bring about electrical balance (there must be as many 
positive ions as there are negative) it is often very high. This 
amounts to understatement of the bicarbonate level in most published 
profiles. But then the pubs don't really say what they mean when they 
list the bicarbonate content. Some sources call it "bicarbonate", some 
sources call it "carbonate" (which it really can't be because water 
actually contains very little carbonate). It is never indicated whether 
the numbers are as the ion or as calcium carbonate. Notice that the pH 
is never given. Values for other ions can probably be taken at face 
value (except for uncertainty as to whether calcium and magnesium 
numbers are as the element or hardness numbers) but the most important 
piece of information to the brewer, the alkalinity, is obscured.

Note also that modern breweries around the world are drawing their 
water from municipal supplies so that their water looks much like what 
comes from a typical water treatment plant in the US. Some are ROing it 
and adding minerals to tune for the desired result.

A.J.



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:49:51 -0600
From: "3rbecks" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Basement brewery

Hi Don,
Although it probably won't be a problem with a HERMS set up, make sure that
you have the heigth above the HLT to pour in the water.
Rob
Kansas City




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Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 09:33:36 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Loathing the water in Las Vegas


Jeff Rankert gives us a geologic run-down of the Colorado river basin as an 
explanation for mineral content of Las Vegas tap water.  Correct me if I'm 
wrong (and I may be) but doesn't Las Vegas water come from a quickly 
diminishing aquafer under the city rather than from the Colorado river?  
Never-the-less I'm sure its mineral content is influenced by many of the 
same sources.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:05:34 -0500
From: "Tom Clark" <rtclark at citynet.net>
Subject: Basement brewery

In response to Don's query on basement breweries, I can offer my two cents
worth.

I built a new home three years ago and included a brewery facility in the
basement.  It includes a counter in the shape of an "L" running along two of
three walls of a small alcove.  The counter is mounted entirely to the wall
so that the floor can be mopped with no obstructions.  I was fortunate in
that, as I was building the counter, Lowe's discontinued a bunch of white
Formica and had it on sale for $5.00 a sheet.  A large, single bowl
stainless steel sink is mounted in the center of the long counter.  (Be
aware that bleach can attack stainless steel. So, don't leave a concentrated
solution in the sink overnight.)  The facet assembly is the type that allows
a piece of garden hose to be attached.   This is handy for rinsing out
carboys, etc.   It also is used to connect the chiller coil.

The burner is an old cast iron natural gas hot plate.    There is a window
just above the hot plate which is opened when boiling wort.  A small window
fan provides forced ventilation but, the venting system should be improved.
Although I don't know an easy way to measure it at home, you need at least
100 feet per minute of air velocity at the face of your hood to help ensure
that any harmful gases are captured.  Velocity can be improved by limiting
the size of the opening in the front of your hood.    The ideal vent system
would also provide outside make up air ducted to the face of the hood area
so that the rest of room is not effected so much.   But, this is only if
fresh air supply is limited by heating requirements or air conditioning.  Of
course, as Don mentioned, a Carbon Monoxide detector is a must as are
GFCI's.

Having the concrete floor sloped sufficiently too ensure adequate drainage
is helpful.  With the wall mounted counter, the entire floor area can be
quite easily hosed down and mopped.  A shelf above the counter is high
enough to allow a carboy to fit beneath it.   It is sturdy enough to support
a full carboy or a bottling bucket.

A telephone jack is another little convenience. - Have you ever been deeply
involved in the brewing process only to have to run upstairs to answer the
phone?   Then come back to find your wort has boiled over.....  I boiled
over a wort once.  Once is definitely enough to make me very cautious of
that ever happening again!

If anyone would like I can send  photos via private E-mail.

Tom Clark




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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:01:22 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Basement brewery ideas


> I have just moved into a new house and I now have some space I can
dedicate
> just to brewing.

Here are the lessons I have learned from brewing in my basement for 5 years.

Keep one design specification in mind -- easy to clean! The easier it is to
clean, the more fun you will have, the more often you will brew, the less
vermin will be invited into the brewery, and you will make better beer.

Do no discount good lighting.  Get the lighting in place first.

Someway to drain large vessels while cleaning is important.

I have a fixed stand, but if I had it to do over again, I would divide each
vessel in my RIMS brewery into three separate stands so I could locate them
wherever I wanted, perhaps even rolling them around while full.

I would avoid tile, because things to not roll on it very well, and it
cracks easily.

One small esoteric item is water drainage from chilling.  Are you just going
to dump this down the sink?  If not, now is a good time to look at how to
plumb drainwater exhaust somewhere else, such as to the garden or lawn.



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:43:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Basement brewery


Don had asked for ideas for setting up a dedicated brewing area in his
new house.  

Lots of ventilation.

Will you ever make lagers, or ale that need a cooler fermentation temp
like alt and Kolsch?  If yes, refriguation with an adjustable temp
controller added.


=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:46:33 -0600
From: "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <veldy at veldy.net>
Subject: Re: Grain mills

I have nothing but praise for my JSP Adjustable Maltmill!  I have
consistantly had a very nice crush with this mill.  It is mounted on a
board, so that when it rests on the top of a bucket, the dust is minimal (my
Philmill I produced ALOT of dust).  The JSP is also very easy to motorize.
Whatever mill you choose, be sure to get an adjustable one if you can afford
it.  Last years American barley harvest produced some small kernels and
without adjusting your mill, you would realize a signficantly reduced
efficiency.

Tom Veldhouse



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Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:22:22 -0600
From: "mike sullivan" <mikesullivan666 at msn.com>
Subject: adding lactose in stouts

Does anyone know if adding lactose changes the gravity of wort? And if it 
does, how much?  I am pretty new to home brewing and any help would be 
appreciated.



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:31:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Agnor <cagnor at emerald.ucsc.edu>
Subject: burner sooting


Hello,

I've got a 'King Kooker' propane burner (~170,000 BTU - is this a 'ring'
style burner?).  I've been using this burner now for several years with no
trouble whatsoever.  However the last few brews have seen a dramatic
increase in the amount of soot produced.

When the burner was new it produced a pure blue flame and generated
virtually no soot.  Now the flame produced is mostly yellow and there is a
thin layer of the greasy black stuff covering the entire bottom of my 1/2
barrel kettle and going up the side after a brew.  It's a PITA to clean
up and smells pretty bad while brewing.

If memory serves, the soot results from incomplete combustion of fuel
and I suspect an inefficient mix of fuel and oxygen as the culprit.  Is
this correct?  If so, how can I repair my burners?  I've tried
disassembling the burners (unscrewing the ring) and cleaning them out, but
this didn't solve the problem.  Anyone else out there run into this
problem and come up with a simple solution?

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Cheers,
Craig Agnor
Santa Cruz, CA


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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:46:49 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: tacking oxygen utilization [follow up to Steve's response]

Thanks Steve for your response!

> Chas Bamforth wrote in an article on the topic that oxidation will reduce
> saturation levels of oxygen (~16ppm) in wort in 8 hours.  That doesn't
> help develop a good rate constant.  Creates an upped bound tho'.
>
> In pitched wort I've seen figures in the 20 minute to 1 hour range for the
> "disappearance" of oxygen.
>

These ballpark numbers was just what I was looking for! They are good enough
for now :)

> temperatures creating more unsaturated FAs.  There is a strong
relationship,
> suggestive of stochiometery, in the reduction of glycogen and the
conversion
> of squalene to sterol.   The oxygen requirements for "normal" brewery

I have assumed that this connection as a first approximation to be one of
simple ATP power generation utilizing glycogen and trehalose and the main
reason why old yeast have so long lag times. I short I'll attempt to model
this by assuming that the early utilization of external sugars are somewhat
proportional to the proper sterol levels, so that external sugars will enter
slowly when internal reserves are empty, allowing more power generation,
that will finally restore the sterol levels and cell walls for full speed
operation. What do you think? I think there has to be some other means of
energy supply if internals are out, otherwise one would have a stuck ferment
while still in the lag phase, which I doubt will happen, or?

> More interesting - the inclusion of relatively minor mounts of oxygen
during
> late fermentation causes a clear reduction of esters in beer - a major
> flavor impact.

This is very interesting! Do you have any ideas for a mechanism? Is this
reductiion a "reduction of production", or reduction of previously produced
esters external to the cell by reabsorption?

 /Fredrik



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Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:50:55 -0800 (PST)
From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: yeast in space

Hi All,
   Saw a neat article on brewing yeast being used in
experiments on the ISS - not brewing per say, but
kinda cool info for techno-heads out there...
the site is
ht_p://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/01dec_yeast.htm?aol37418



=====
BIBIDI !
        Brew It Bottle It Drink It 
       Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing
        Bainbridge, PA,  U.S.A.



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