HOMEBREW Digest #4415 Tue 02 December 2003

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  Re: HBD Digest, Category 24 & Honey beers, Recap: First (Bill Tobler)
  dryhopping ("Dr. Rodney Wild")
  re: Flocculated yeast ("-S")
  Re: Basement Brewing Ideas (Todd Goodman)
  RO water (Marc Sedam)
  Water profiles ("A.J deLange")
  Basement brewery ("3rbecks")
  Loathing the water in Las Vegas ("Doug Hurst")
  Basement brewery ("Tom Clark")
  Re: Basement brewery ideas ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Basement brewery (Leo Vitt)
  Re: Grain mills ("Thomas T. Veldhouse")
  adding lactose in stouts ("mike sullivan")
  burner sooting (Craig Agnor)
  Re: tacking oxygen utilization [follow up to Steve's response] ("Fredrik")
  yeast in space (carlos benitez)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:55:05 -0600 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: HBD Digest, Category 24 & Honey beers, Recap: First Dave Houseman corrected me the other day when I stuck my foot in my mouth. That particular morning, the two or three Honeywheats must have really clouded my judgment, as I didn't express what I was trying to say at all about where to put a Honey Wheat beer in the style categories. (I was just off of graveyards) I have stewarded before, and I know the judges don't see any information on the beers, except in special categories. I guess what I really wanted to say, but in no way said it, was that Honey Wheat beers could have their own subcategory, if their was enough interest. I really haven't been to enough competitions to know how many Honey Wheat beers are entered. I agree with Dave Houseman's comments completely. I just didn't say what I wanted to. The Barleywine I brewed a few weeks ago turned out great. To recap, I brewed a 5 gallon batch of Cream Ale the week before, pitched WLP001, California Ale yeast, and pitched the Barleywine on top of the yeast cake. The mashing went great, I ended up with 4.5 gallons of 1097 wort. I decided not to jack the OG up with sugar or DME. The BW took off in just a few hours, and finished at 1020. Hydrometer tasting was very impressive. It's in a 5 gallon keg at 50 degrees conditioning. I'll probably leave it there for 4 or 5 months then bottle. I made 2.5 gallons of a smaller beer off of the second runnings. OG was 1066, pitched a pack of Nottingham and it finished at 1018. I'm thinking of turning this into an IceAle. The latest BYO was talking about Eisbocks and it sounds like fun. I guess that would be Cat. 24 too? Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:25:02 -0900 From: "Dr. Rodney Wild" <rwild at ptialaska.net> Subject: dryhopping I just put two ounces of loose hops on top of 11 gall. IPA that is sitting in a 15 gall. conical. My problem is that about a full ounce is not in contact with the beer. Will it eventually come into contact, or have I wasted some hops? Thanks, Rodney Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:23:22 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: Flocculated yeast I'm just catching up on digests and saw this red herring ... Dave Burley writes, >SteveA seems pretty sure that flocculated yeast cannot metabolize sugars. That's *NOT* what I wrote Freshly flocculated yeast are usually alive and are to some extent fermenting carbohydrates. The problem is NOT that fermentation stops but that it is far too slow to avoid flavor and autolysis problems. It's slow because the yeast have lost the ability to reproduce and so their energy requirements are tiny and so they consume sugars slowly. My point is that when growth stops (always due to environment) that the yeast energy req drops to a very low level and so fermentation slows to a snails-pace. For brewing yeast the inability to grow can also trigger the NewFlo flocculation mechanism, but that's secondary to the real problem that yeast ferment very slowly because they cannot grow. Stirring cannot reverse flocculation and reversing flocculation wouldn't create growth conditions necessary for fast fermentation anyway. ((even non-flocculent yeast can stick)). > I also doubt > that dropping the yeast had much to do in the way of incorporation > of oxygen M&BS page 668, "Dropping the fermenting wort [[after 24-36 hours]] has the advantage that (i) cold trub and other undesirable materials are left in the first vessel, [...] (ii) mixing and AERATION. Many brewers with and without facilities dropping, mix and AERATE by rousing [[with paddles or pumps and sprayers]]". This is in the context of a paragraph that described the need for aeration of wort. Kirsop also demonstrated ["Oxygen in Brewery Fermentation", JIBv80, pp252-259] that several of these highly flocculating British ale yeasts, like NCYC228 - the Sheffield yeast, which require dropping also have high oxygen requirements. >Yeast growth ( if by that Steve means yeast <population> growth) has little > to do with the metabolism of sugar by live yeast. Every chemostat study I've ever seen says otherwise. In the fermenter sugar is the PRIMARY source of energy and the primary USE for energy (upwards of 90%) is in creating new yeast mass. Growth always refers to yeast mass, and that's normally directly related to population. In fermenter, sugar is the primary source of carbon for cell biosynthesis too. So growth is directly dependent on sugar fermentation in the brewery, and sugar fermentation rate is strongly dependent on the rate energy is used for growth (relatively minor amount used for cell maintenance). > BUT removing the yeast from the >playing field by precipitation or reducing the area swept by a yeast cell > due to flocculation will be expected to slow fermentation. The folks who have developed immobilized yeast fermenting systems will be disappointed to hear that their systems - in experimental use for over two decades - cannot work according to Dave ! Some cellular growth systems, like acetic acid bacteria, primarily consist of stationary cells and have no problem sucking all the nutrient out of the media. Settling all the yeast to the bottom will slow but certainly not stop fermentation and I believe this should only have a minor impact on rate. Honestly Dave - calculate what wort of sugar concentration gradient could possibly be maintained for even an hour across a 30cm fermenter and you'll no doubt see that mixing the yeast and sugars is an inconsequential factor. Brownian motion will handle the mixing well enough that yeast need never leave the fermenter bottom I think. -Steve Alexander Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:57:44 -0500 From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net> Subject: Re: Basement Brewing Ideas Don Anderson writes: > > Greetings all, > > I have just moved into a new house and I now have some space I can dedicate > just to brewing. I have searched the archive and searched the web (google > is your friend) looking for ideas on just how to lay things out. I was > wondering if anyone with a basement brewery would be so kind as to pass > along any lessons they have learned from doing something similar. Things I > already have planned are: > A large sink and counter space. > Tiled floor with drain. > Some type of fixed stands for my HERMS rig that's under construction. > Storage shelves or cabinets. > The room was built for a gas fireplace so it already has gas plumbing and a > metal chimney. I am going to change over from propane to a gas burner and > get some type of hood to connect to the chimney. There is also a large > window in this room that I can open if needed. > > Safety gear: CO2 detector, fire detector, fire extinguisher, GFI wall > sockets. > > Thanks for any feedback. > -Don Don, It sounds like you've hit the major things you'll want (and the safety items especially.) Other things you might want to think about are: Hot and cold outdoor faucets (over your sink) so you can screw a bottle washer and hose for chilling directly onto it. I also added an overhead beam with trolley and hoist to help lift kegs into and out of my chest freezer. I needed a large diameter gas feed for my commercial stove which had to be run right from the gas feed into the house (1" instead of 3/4" which the rest of the house used, if I remember correctly...) I have some pics of my old basement brewing setup and my new setup at: http://ww.bonedaddy.net/tgoodman/brewerypics Regards, Todd Leaving Westford, MA shortly for some warm weather riding in Oz Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:41:21 -0500 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: RO water Just one comment on a home installation of RO water in brewing... I'm sure someone will have the "right" number, but from my days in the lab I seem to recall that it takes four gallons of tap water to produce one gallon of RO water. So using RO at home will increase your water and energy bills significantly. Perhaps best to go buy the RO water at one of the various co-ops that seem to sell it...they probably have a water recovery aspect for the effluent that doesn't make it as RO water. Cheers! - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:46:37 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Water profiles I just want to add a bit to the idea "You also want to be aware, if you aren't already, that the published water analysis of major brewing areas aren't necessarily what they are brewing with." There is a good reason why many of the published profiles are not what the brewer is working with and that is because many of the published profiles do not describe physically realizable water unless you want to entertain pH's that are well above reasonable (9 - 11). If you take the typical profile from a book or magazine article and calculate the pH necessary to bring about electrical balance (there must be as many positive ions as there are negative) it is often very high. This amounts to understatement of the bicarbonate level in most published profiles. But then the pubs don't really say what they mean when they list the bicarbonate content. Some sources call it "bicarbonate", some sources call it "carbonate" (which it really can't be because water actually contains very little carbonate). It is never indicated whether the numbers are as the ion or as calcium carbonate. Notice that the pH is never given. Values for other ions can probably be taken at face value (except for uncertainty as to whether calcium and magnesium numbers are as the element or hardness numbers) but the most important piece of information to the brewer, the alkalinity, is obscured. Note also that modern breweries around the world are drawing their water from municipal supplies so that their water looks much like what comes from a typical water treatment plant in the US. Some are ROing it and adding minerals to tune for the desired result. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:49:51 -0600 From: "3rbecks" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Basement brewery Hi Don, Although it probably won't be a problem with a HERMS set up, make sure that you have the heigth above the HLT to pour in the water. Rob Kansas City Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 09:33:36 -0600 From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com> Subject: Loathing the water in Las Vegas Jeff Rankert gives us a geologic run-down of the Colorado river basin as an explanation for mineral content of Las Vegas tap water. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be) but doesn't Las Vegas water come from a quickly diminishing aquafer under the city rather than from the Colorado river? Never-the-less I'm sure its mineral content is influenced by many of the same sources. Doug Hurst Chicago, IL [197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:05:34 -0500 From: "Tom Clark" <rtclark at citynet.net> Subject: Basement brewery In response to Don's query on basement breweries, I can offer my two cents worth. I built a new home three years ago and included a brewery facility in the basement. It includes a counter in the shape of an "L" running along two of three walls of a small alcove. The counter is mounted entirely to the wall so that the floor can be mopped with no obstructions. I was fortunate in that, as I was building the counter, Lowe's discontinued a bunch of white Formica and had it on sale for $5.00 a sheet. A large, single bowl stainless steel sink is mounted in the center of the long counter. (Be aware that bleach can attack stainless steel. So, don't leave a concentrated solution in the sink overnight.) The facet assembly is the type that allows a piece of garden hose to be attached. This is handy for rinsing out carboys, etc. It also is used to connect the chiller coil. The burner is an old cast iron natural gas hot plate. There is a window just above the hot plate which is opened when boiling wort. A small window fan provides forced ventilation but, the venting system should be improved. Although I don't know an easy way to measure it at home, you need at least 100 feet per minute of air velocity at the face of your hood to help ensure that any harmful gases are captured. Velocity can be improved by limiting the size of the opening in the front of your hood. The ideal vent system would also provide outside make up air ducted to the face of the hood area so that the rest of room is not effected so much. But, this is only if fresh air supply is limited by heating requirements or air conditioning. Of course, as Don mentioned, a Carbon Monoxide detector is a must as are GFCI's. Having the concrete floor sloped sufficiently too ensure adequate drainage is helpful. With the wall mounted counter, the entire floor area can be quite easily hosed down and mopped. A shelf above the counter is high enough to allow a carboy to fit beneath it. It is sturdy enough to support a full carboy or a bottling bucket. A telephone jack is another little convenience. - Have you ever been deeply involved in the brewing process only to have to run upstairs to answer the phone? Then come back to find your wort has boiled over..... I boiled over a wort once. Once is definitely enough to make me very cautious of that ever happening again! If anyone would like I can send photos via private E-mail. Tom Clark Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:01:22 -0600 From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> Subject: Re: Basement brewery ideas > I have just moved into a new house and I now have some space I can dedicate > just to brewing. Here are the lessons I have learned from brewing in my basement for 5 years. Keep one design specification in mind -- easy to clean! The easier it is to clean, the more fun you will have, the more often you will brew, the less vermin will be invited into the brewery, and you will make better beer. Do no discount good lighting. Get the lighting in place first. Someway to drain large vessels while cleaning is important. I have a fixed stand, but if I had it to do over again, I would divide each vessel in my RIMS brewery into three separate stands so I could locate them wherever I wanted, perhaps even rolling them around while full. I would avoid tile, because things to not roll on it very well, and it cracks easily. One small esoteric item is water drainage from chilling. Are you just going to dump this down the sink? If not, now is a good time to look at how to plumb drainwater exhaust somewhere else, such as to the garden or lawn. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:43:53 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com> Subject: Basement brewery Don had asked for ideas for setting up a dedicated brewing area in his new house. Lots of ventilation. Will you ever make lagers, or ale that need a cooler fermentation temp like alt and Kolsch? If yes, refriguation with an adjustable temp controller added. ===== Leo Vitt Sidney, NE Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:46:33 -0600 From: "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <veldy at veldy.net> Subject: Re: Grain mills I have nothing but praise for my JSP Adjustable Maltmill! I have consistantly had a very nice crush with this mill. It is mounted on a board, so that when it rests on the top of a bucket, the dust is minimal (my Philmill I produced ALOT of dust). The JSP is also very easy to motorize. Whatever mill you choose, be sure to get an adjustable one if you can afford it. Last years American barley harvest produced some small kernels and without adjusting your mill, you would realize a signficantly reduced efficiency. Tom Veldhouse Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:22:22 -0600 From: "mike sullivan" <mikesullivan666 at msn.com> Subject: adding lactose in stouts Does anyone know if adding lactose changes the gravity of wort? And if it does, how much? I am pretty new to home brewing and any help would be appreciated. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:31:16 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Agnor <cagnor at emerald.ucsc.edu> Subject: burner sooting Hello, I've got a 'King Kooker' propane burner (~170,000 BTU - is this a 'ring' style burner?). I've been using this burner now for several years with no trouble whatsoever. However the last few brews have seen a dramatic increase in the amount of soot produced. When the burner was new it produced a pure blue flame and generated virtually no soot. Now the flame produced is mostly yellow and there is a thin layer of the greasy black stuff covering the entire bottom of my 1/2 barrel kettle and going up the side after a brew. It's a PITA to clean up and smells pretty bad while brewing. If memory serves, the soot results from incomplete combustion of fuel and I suspect an inefficient mix of fuel and oxygen as the culprit. Is this correct? If so, how can I repair my burners? I've tried disassembling the burners (unscrewing the ring) and cleaning them out, but this didn't solve the problem. Anyone else out there run into this problem and come up with a simple solution? Thanks for any help you can offer. Cheers, Craig Agnor Santa Cruz, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:46:49 +0100 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: tacking oxygen utilization [follow up to Steve's response] Thanks Steve for your response! > Chas Bamforth wrote in an article on the topic that oxidation will reduce > saturation levels of oxygen (~16ppm) in wort in 8 hours. That doesn't > help develop a good rate constant. Creates an upped bound tho'. > > In pitched wort I've seen figures in the 20 minute to 1 hour range for the > "disappearance" of oxygen. > These ballpark numbers was just what I was looking for! They are good enough for now :) > temperatures creating more unsaturated FAs. There is a strong relationship, > suggestive of stochiometery, in the reduction of glycogen and the conversion > of squalene to sterol. The oxygen requirements for "normal" brewery I have assumed that this connection as a first approximation to be one of simple ATP power generation utilizing glycogen and trehalose and the main reason why old yeast have so long lag times. I short I'll attempt to model this by assuming that the early utilization of external sugars are somewhat proportional to the proper sterol levels, so that external sugars will enter slowly when internal reserves are empty, allowing more power generation, that will finally restore the sterol levels and cell walls for full speed operation. What do you think? I think there has to be some other means of energy supply if internals are out, otherwise one would have a stuck ferment while still in the lag phase, which I doubt will happen, or? > More interesting - the inclusion of relatively minor mounts of oxygen during > late fermentation causes a clear reduction of esters in beer - a major > flavor impact. This is very interesting! Do you have any ideas for a mechanism? Is this reductiion a "reduction of production", or reduction of previously produced esters external to the cell by reabsorption? /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:50:55 -0800 (PST) From: carlos benitez <greenmonsterbrewing at yahoo.com> Subject: yeast in space Hi All, Saw a neat article on brewing yeast being used in experiments on the ISS - not brewing per say, but kinda cool info for techno-heads out there... the site is ht_p://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/01dec_yeast.htm?aol37418 ===== BIBIDI ! Brew It Bottle It Drink It Carlos Benitez - Green Monster Brewing Bainbridge, PA, U.S.A. Return to table of contents
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