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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  How *NOT* to clean a fermenter ("-S")
  Yeast & maltiness ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous? (jkleczewski)
  Re: grassy hops (matt hardesty)
  Re: Yeast descriptions (R.A.)" <rbarrett@ford.com>
  Damnosus (Michael)
  RE: thermistors, thermocouples, RTDs ("Todd M. Snyder")
  RE: maltiness ("Brian Lundeen")
  Lagering and Conditioning ("John Kramer")
  Dunkelwiess ("Bequette, Todd")
  Nother corny keg cleaning idea & thank yous' ("Gary Smith")
  inline O2 aeration ("jim")
  Re: Beer or Something More Dangerous? ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  PBW and stainless steel ("nephi polder")
  New Belgium Trippel (Craig Agnor)
  Re: inline O2 aeration (Pat Babcock)
  Re: inline O2 aeration (Pat Babcock)
  re: sensory: play-doh and grass ("-S")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:38:37 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: How *NOT* to clean a fermenter

David Towson states ...,

>IMO, using PBW to clean things that can be easily cleaned with "elbow
>grease" is a waste of both money and time. [...] I think its principal
>value is for cleaning things where
>scrubbing is not possible due to lack of access.

Most of the cleaners can be stored for re-use which amortizes the cost.  I
disagree with the philosophy that "elbow grease" is a substitute for a high
quality cleaning agent.  Dave demonstrates why:

> To clean my 12-gallon cylindro-conical, [...]
>  For "problem
> spots", I use a piece of ScrotchBrite held in my hand.

YOW !!!   Do *NOT NOT NOT* do what Dave has done.

Scotchbrite and comparable plastic scrubbing pads have abrasive qualities
similar to fine sandpaper.  It will scratch glass and stainless.  The
interior surfaces and joints of a fermenter *should* be polished to a very
high degree to prevent grooves where bacteria and fungi can trap.   There is
a spec (by the NSF in the US I think) that describes how smooth the
interiors of commercial fermenters must be.  Scrubbing the interior of a
fermenter with a scotchbrite type pad will make it unusable for meeting
sanitary specs.

A few years ago on the same topic came up on HBD and took a scotchbrite and
scrubbed a glass microscope slide.   This created grooves with dimensions
around 1 micron in the glass - ideal for hiding bacteria.

Soda cleaners (and chlorine in the case of glass fermenters) do a remarkable
job of cleaning with little or no scrubbing.  Abrasive cleaners and cleaning
pads must be avoided in the fermenter.

BTW I contacted the manufacturer of "Rebel's EZ-ON EZ-OFF" metal cleaner and
they do not recommend this cleaner for jewelry and plated items.  It's
intended for heavy, non-critical stainless.  The implication is that this
stuff may erode/dissolve the metal surface.  Again - not for fermenter use.

 -Steve




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Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:29:18 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Yeast & maltiness

Fred Johnson asks "how can yeast 'emphasize the maltiness ... or 
hoppiness' of a beer?  Is this related to attenuation?"

I think that a yeast that "emphasizes maltiness" probably puts out 
higher levels of various aroma compounds that produce a malty 
impression.  For example, a yeast that produced threshhold levels of 
diacetyl would make a maltier/sweeter tasting beer, even at the same 
attenuation level as a yeast that produced no diacetyl.  Same with DMS.  
On the other hand, an very clean yeast, or a yeast that produces low 
sulfur levels will leave the hops standing alone or even underpin the 
hop aroma.

So, no, I don't think it's just attenuation.  Maltiness is not 
sweetness.  The aromas that say "malt" to us do not come from sugars.  
Granted, a sweeter beer may taste maltier, but I've had plenty of malty 
tasting dry beers (Alt comes to mind.)

=Spencer



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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:28:48 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
From: jkleczewski at mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous?

In HBD #4418 Tom Franklin says:

>I have a batch of beer that's been sitting in a secondary for over 8 months
>now.  (Yeah, I know, I know)  It's developed a thin white layer of...
>something over the top of the beer.  I was all set to wipe a tear from my
>eye and dump the beer when I noticed something odd.  When I picked up the
>glass secondary the beer, naturally, shook around a fair amount.  The white
>stuff, however, didn't dissolve as I'd expected, but broke into torn
>segments.  Five days later they're still in thin, discrete segments.
>
>Anyone with any experience with this?  It this salvageable (without
>incurring really serious illness)?  My guess is that the bacterial
>infection is throughout the beer, but I figured it was worth asking the
>collective.

I have _very_ hard water and I notice this on all my beers, but the more
I dilute my water (for lighter beers) the less this forms. I two stage
filter my water, using it striaght for very dark beers, and dilute as
much as 2/3 (or more) with R/O water for light ales etc.

I assume that it is some sort of hardness coming out of the water, my
beers taste fine. I rack from under the scale.

    John

John Kleczewski
West Chicago, Il



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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:33:27 -0800 (PST)
From: matt hardesty <mlhardesty at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: grassy hops

bill,
thanks for the words of encouragement in this time of
loss and sorrow.

when i discovered the grassy flavor, i immediately
transferred the beer off the hops. i even
re-commissioned my rarely used canister filter to help
remove more of the hop sediment (another reason to use
whole hops, which i usually do.)

i am already force carbonating in cornie kegs in the
refrigerator.  i planned on bottling as soon as
carbonated to free up fridge space.  is there any
advantage or disadvantage to bottling and storing at
cellar temps. vs. an extended conditioning in the
refrigerator.  i wonder if the temps would make a
difference and if the presence of some free oxygen in
the bottle necks would make a difference in the aging
process.  i believe some oxygenation by-products are
often associated with the complexity of flavor in
barleywines.

matt




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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:06:14 -0500 
From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast descriptions

Fred Johnson asks:
>Would someone please confirm my suspicion that all we are talking about
>is the general degree of attenuation at which these yeasts perform.
>After all, doesn't maltiness only imply that there are sugars left
>behind? Doesn't "emphasize the hops" only mean that the sugars from the
>malt are more thoroughly consumed so that the hop flavor (or actually
>bitterness) comes through more?

Fred, if that were the case there would be no need for different yeasts.  All
you would have to be concerned about would be how much the yeast
attenuates. 
Have you ever brewed a beer and fermented the same wort in two different
fermenters with two different yeasts?  If not, the results are amazing.  Yeast,
IMHO, is the number one ingredient in beer that effects the flavor.  When I
taste a beer, I always ask,  "what yeast is this?"  When ever a brewer wants
to be secret about their beer, they always withhold the yeast identity.  You
can use the exact same grain and hops in the exact same proportions and
if you don't know the yeast, you won't be able to reproduce the beer.

We make the beer we drink!!
Bob Barrett
Ann Arbor, MI
(2.8, 103.6) rennerian.  I'm sure Jeff will post
something about this same subject.


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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:06:55 -0600
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Damnosus

"Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com> wrote about infections
in two non-consecutive batches.

Jay, I agree, it's probably not your fermenter. The things I have to
wonder about are:

1. How do you cool the wort? If you use a counterflow chiller, I have to
wonder if you're not cleaning it consistently.

2. How do you aerate the wort? This is another potential source of
infection, if not cleaned/sanitized consistently.

3. Do you crush grain anywhere near where it could get into the wort?
This is something I definitely worry about.

I had initially thought an infected starter was a possiblity until I
noticed that one of the batches used a dry yeast.

This would probably be a good time to go through your entire brewing
process and check and clean everything that can be checked and cleaned.
It's possible, for instance, that the damnosus is hanging out somewhere
around your brewery and (with the microbial equivalent of an infernal
laugh) just managed to infect your beer through two different methods.
(I do think it more likely to be something common to both beers.)

Michael
Middleton WI


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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:17:27 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject:  RE: thermistors, thermocouples, RTDs

Jeff from NASA, who definitely knows much more about thermocouples than I
do, writes:

<if care
is taken to use isothermal junction boxes, good ice reference units, highly
accurate digital voltmeters (better than a microvolt), etc., thermocouples
can be accurate to +/- 0.05C!  >

That's fine, but who has an isothermal junction box?  Who has a good ice
reference unit? (what is that, anyway?)  Who has a voltmeter accurate to
less than a microvolt?  NASA may, but very few others would, definitely no
homebrewer.

<Moreover, they can be used all the way down
to only a few degrees above absolute zero.  >

What 'rest' is that used for?  Do you dough in a 0 degrees Kelvin?

That's the thing about brewing temperatures, we're really only interested in
about 100F to 180F, a really narrow range.  Thermocouples are overkill in
this regard, even the type T with its narrowest range, goes from about 0 to
600F which is mostly useless to homebrewers.

<Granted, the equipment to do it properly is expensive and isn't common in
breweries. >

Common?   I've got $20 that says it's 'non-existant'.

I'm just trying to stay in reality here, and the typical thermocouple and
meter is going to be +/- 1 C, or +/- 1.8F .  Personally, my brewing would
not be affected by missing the dough-in temperature by 2F (or 5F for that
matter!).  Some brewers might be appalled by such inaccuracy though.

The original question was, 'what's in a $20 kitchen digital thermometer' .
It's not a thermocouple, just a thermistor.   The associated circuit must be
cheaper to make than for a thermocouple.

Todd
Basement Brewing in Buffalo,
On tap - Boh Pils and Schwartzbier




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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:30:03 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: maltiness


> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:51:54 -0500
> From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
> Subject: Yeast descriptions
> 
> Dear friends:
> 
> For years (and recently on the HBD) I've heard various yeasts 
> described 
> something like "emphasizes the malt" or "very malty" or "accentuates 
> the hops".
> 
> Would someone please confirm my suspicion that all we are 
> talking about 
> is the general degree of attenuation at which these yeasts perform. 
> After all, doesn't maltiness only imply that there are sugars left 
> behind? 

Not to my way of thinking. I've had very dry beers with lots of malt
flavour, and beers with high terminal gravity but little maltiness.
Maltiness to me is not a sweetness, it has more to do with the flavour
and aroma of the beer.

I've also done split batches with different yeasts, and noticed a
difference in maltiness that was not related to TG. My recent
Octoberfest was an example. The portion fermented with Wyeast Bavarian
was noticeably maltier in flavour than that fermented by the DCL S-189,
yet both finished at exactly the same TG. The S-189 definitely preserved
more hop character (which perhaps is why it was perceived as less
malty). I also did an Alt awhile back with both 1007 and S-04. The S-04
actually took it to a slightly lower TG, yet the emphasis on the malt
was noticeable compared to the more austere 1007. 

Just my personal observations, for what they're worth.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:15:24 -0500
From: "John Kramer" <kramjj03 at wfu.edu>
Subject: Lagering and Conditioning

I have two questions that in one way or another relate to conditioning

1) Lagering -  I would like to lager a czech pilsner in a 5 gallon cornelius
keg. I will eventually be force carbonating the beer, and I'm wondering what
I should do about pressure when I am lagering it.  Do I just transfer the
beer in and close the keg?  seal it with 10psi?  or completely force
carbonate it with 30psi?  Roughly how long should it lager at 38 degrees?

2) Conditioning an ale - I have a high gravity ale that has been sitting in
a secondary for 3 weeks but still tastes like it has another month or so to
mature.  I also plan to force carbonate this beer. Should I leave it in the
secondary for another month or transfer it to the 5 gallon keg and carbonate
it?  I have read about bottle vs secondary conditioning, but  I get confused
about how conditioning works, because it seems like in bottle conditioning
the beer is sitting for extended periods of time while carbonated...

Thanks so much,

John Kramer
Winston-Salem, NC



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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:07:46 -0600 
From: "Bequette, Todd" <TABE at ssitech.com>
Subject: Dunkelwiess 

    [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ]
    [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set.  ]
    [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]

	I saw your messages on hbd.org's website about Dunkelwiess brewing,
and was hoping that you may be able to help me out.  I've purchased a kit of
ducnkelwiess beer, but the instructions are for another type of beer.  When
I went back to the store they were of no help in correcting the situation.
Do you have a recipe that you could share with me?  Even if the ingredients
are slightly different, it would be better than just starting from scratch.
	Also, is there a particular type of yeast that you have found to be
good with weiss beer?  This is my first go at weiss.
	My email is tabe at ssitech.com.
Thanks, Todd Bequette


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Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:03:18 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Nother corny keg cleaning idea & thank yous'

First of all, the thanks to all those who replied to my 
questions about the corny cleaning & Sabco 
fermenter care & feeding.  It's so nice to get 
replies to something you need to know about & 
re-inventing the wheel in this case really doesn't 
help someone learn.  Getting to the solutions 
that work makes all the difference. I appreciate it!!!


I had this wild idea last night about cleaning cornys.  
What you're supposed to do as I've learned is take 
the fittings off the corny & then clean them in 
solution & then rinse & then fill with sanitizer & purge.

I've got a bunch of pumps here, an Iwaki MD40, a 
1.5 gal/ minute peristaltic & a couple lesser 
magnetics (Other than the high temp March pumps 
located on the rims unit) I was thinking that the 
pump with the most "vibration & spurting 
characteristic is the Peristaltic. If... I were to 
connect the Peristaltic which has polysulfone 
quick disconnects on it to the input & output of the 
corny & run/recycle cleaner through it & then 
with sanitizer, it would clean the valve areas 
and the snap on connectors on the hoses at the 
same time because when engaged all the 
hidden crevices would be exposed to the 
moving fluid. Since the fluid is moving it would 
likely clean the crevices like in the poppetts 
all that better. 

Just an idea but anyone see anything wrong 
with that? Seems like it would be easier on the 
equipment not to keep taking it apart & 
re-assemble and the moving fluid might give 
a more thorough cleaning/sanitizing?

Cheers!

Gary

Gary Smith
CQ DX de KA1J
http://musician.dyndns.org
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html


"Give a man a beer and he'll drink for five minutes.
Teach him where the beer is, he'll drink for a lifetime and get it himself".




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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:07:29 -0500
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: inline O2 aeration

I just picked up one of the inline aerators from St Pats. Before, I always
used an aeration stone in my wort, and would give it some quick blasts of
O2, then be done with it.

How is this done inline? I can't imagine just leaving the oxygen on the
whole time. That's a bit of a waste and unnecessary..?! If I periodically
give it a shot, it's not oxygenating all the wort, just that which happened
to pass by from the CF chiller. Should I go to an aquarium pump instead?

Kinda confused. someone send me in the right direction!

cheers,
Jim



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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:53:38 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Beer or Something More Dangerous?

On Thursday,  4 December 2003 at  0:18:29 -0500, Tom Franklin wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have a batch of beer that's been sitting in a secondary for over 8 months
>  now.  (Yeah, I know, I know)  It's developed a thin white layer of...
>  something over the top of the beer.  I was all set to wipe a tear from my
>  eye and dump the beer when I noticed something odd.  When I picked up the
>  glass secondary the beer, naturally, shook around a fair amount.  The white
>  stuff, however, didn't dissolve as I'd expected, but broke into torn
>  segments.  Five days later they're still in thin, discrete
> segments.

Heh.  Looks like you've made a sherry :-)

Seriously, I don't have any experience with this, but a film ("flor")
over the top of a dry sherry is highly prized.  No idea if this is the
same stuff, but I'd guess it's probably not going to kill you.  What
does the beer taste like?  And no, I don't take responsibility.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:04:48 -0800
From: "nephi polder" <nefipoda at hotmail.com>
Subject: PBW and stainless steel

Hello all,
Is there a limit to how long PBW should be in contact with stainless steel? 
Could it ever lead to corrosion or damage?  Does PBW break down, or can it 
be reused for days, or months?  I'm under the impression that iodophor 
solutions (and maybe starsan, which I haven't used) maintain their 
sanitizing properties for months or longer.  Why do some brewers fill their 
kegs with C02 between use?  Is that just to prevent any corrosion that might 
occur from the presence of oxygen?  Thanks in advance.  I really feel 
grateful to be able to participate in a forum that includes so many 
experienced and knowledgeable brewers.  I can't remember how I stumbled onto 
this site.
Nephi Polder



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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:43:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Agnor <cagnor at emerald.ucsc.edu>
Subject: New Belgium Trippel


Hi gang,

First of all, thanks to those who replied about how to fix my sooting
propane burners.  I think they'll be running clean again in no time.

Now, I'm interested in brewing a Trippel and seeking some guidance on the
yeast selection.

SWMBO is a big fan of New Belgium Trippel.  So, I'm shooting for something
reminiscent of that.  Does anyone have any information on which of the
available yeasts (White Labs or Wyeast) is closest to that used by New
Belgium?

I'm aware that the NB Trippel comes bottle conditioned, but a quick look
through the archives (HBD# 1462 June 1994) indicates that they condition
with an ale yeast rather than the estery belgian strain used for the primary
fermentation.  Is this still the case?

Cheers,
Craig Agnor
Santa Cruz, CA



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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:37:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: inline O2 aeration

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

"jim" <jimswms at cox.net> asks for tips in using an in-line
aerator...

> How is this done inline? I can't imagine just leaving the
> oxygen on the whole time. That's a bit of a waste and
> unnecessary..?! 

> Kinda confused. someone send me in the right direction!

Go ye into the wilderness and seeketh the wisdom of the ageless
Janitorial staff? Sooth! Ye have been answered thus:

I made my own inline aerator with a hypodermic needle and a
Burnzomatic welding regulator. I run it "continously" while
pumping the wort to the fermenter; however, "continously" means
that I have adjusted the flow of the oxygen so that it puts a
fairly regular stream of small bubbles into the stream. Since I
use a counterflow chiller, the flow rate of the wort is fairly
slow, too.

In any case, the trick is to set it up so that it bubbles
regularly into the wort, not so that it empties the oxygen tank
:^)

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie





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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:37:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: inline O2 aeration

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

"jim" <jimswms at cox.net> asks for tips in using an in-line
aerator...

> How is this done inline? I can't imagine just leaving the
> oxygen on the whole time. That's a bit of a waste and
> unnecessary..?! 

> Kinda confused. someone send me in the right direction!

Go ye into the wilderness and seeketh the wisdom of the ageless
Janitorial staff? Sooth! Ye have been answered thus:

I made my own inline aerator with a hypodermic needle and a
Bernzomatic welding regulator. I run it "continuously" while
pumping the wort to the fermenter; however, "continuously" means
that I have adjusted the flow of the oxygen so that it puts a
fairly regular stream of small bubbles into the stream. Since I
use a counterflow chiller, the flow rate of the wort is fairly
slow, too.

In any case, the trick is to set it up so that it bubbles
regularly into the wort, not so that it empties the oxygen tank
:^)

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie





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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:46:04 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: sensory: play-doh and grass

matt hardesty asks,

>first question:  what would explain a distinct
>play-doh aroma in a stout?  would this be diacetyl?

That funky aroma in Play-doh is a non-toxic anti-fungal called m-cresol, I
think.   No idea what it is doing in your beer, but it is produced by some
fungi&bacteria.

 -Steve






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---