---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  Balgian Beer ("E Kraus")
  re: beer or something more dangerous ("Buck Wilke")
  Re: Beer or Something More Dangerous? ("Peter Flint Jr.")
  RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous? (Nick Dempsey)
  Re: How *NOT* to clean a fermenter (David Towson)
  RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous? (Michael)
  Re: New Belgium Trippel ("Steve Jones")
  Re: Nother corny keg cleaning idea & thank yous' (Kent Fletcher)
  Thermocouples and other necessary brewing gadgets. ("Mike Sharp")
  Pending Lambic Legislation ("Mark Tumarkin")
  RE: Lagering and conditioning / white film / PBW (George de Piro)
  New Belgium Trippel (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: How *NOT* to clean a fermenter ("-S")
  sweaty socks? ("Jeff & Ellen")
  Link of the week - Dec 6 2003 (Bob Devine)
  Dunkelweizen ("Jodie Davis")
  Subject: RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous? (Steven Thomas)


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Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:38:06 -0500
From: "E Kraus" <ekraus50 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Balgian Beer

Belgianlookin for a good selection of Belgian Beers, Celebration Ale and 
Rogue Imperial Stout in Miami
Here is where you can get it.
12555 Biscayne Blvd
N. Miami, FL 33181
(305) 892-9463
The guy to ask for is Jeff he can get you what ever is available in Florida.
I have no affiliation with the store and after living in Atlanta since 76 
its great to find the finer beers in a local store. Not to mention a Manager 
that will get you what you want.



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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:54:38 -0500
From: "Buck Wilke" <brewer at valkyrie.net>
Subject: re: beer or something more dangerous

Tom Franklin said:
I have a batch of beer that's been sitting in a secondary for over 8 months
 now.  (Yeah, I know, I know)  It's developed a thin white layer of...
 something over the top of the beer.  I was all set to wipe a tear from my
 eye and dump the beer when I noticed something odd.  When I picked up the
 glass secondary the beer, naturally, shook around a fair amount.  The white
 stuff, however, didn't dissolve as I'd expected, but broke into torn
 segments.  Five days later they're still in thin, discrete segments.

I had the same thing happen to me about a year ago. Dan Listermann gave me
some advice that worked. He said that this was a "Brett" infection, and to
heat the brew to 160'F for a few minutes. After doing this the white stuff
disapeared and it did  not seem to effect the flavor of the brew.
Hope this helps.

Buck Wilke
brewer at valkyrie.net



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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:14:06 -0500
From: "Peter Flint Jr." <peterflint at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Beer or Something More Dangerous?

On Thursday,  4 December 2003 at  0:18:29 -0500, Tom Franklin wrote:
>  Hi All,
>
>  I have a batch of beer that's been sitting in a secondary for over 8 months
>   now.  (Yeah, I know, I know)  It's developed a thin white layer of...
>   something over the top of the beer.  I was all set to wipe a tear from my
>   eye and dump the beer when I noticed something odd.  When I picked up the
>   glass secondary the beer, naturally, shook around a fair amount.  The white
>   stuff, however, didn't dissolve as I'd expected, but broke into torn
>   segments.  Five days later they're still in thin, discrete
>  segments.

I'm just speculating here, but makers of lambics sometimes end up 
with a white film over the beer called pellicle.  I believe it is a 
byproduct of some of the bacteria used in making Lambics, but others 
may correct me.  I don't think it's considered a problem in that 
style.  However, if you weren't trying to make a Lambic, it may be 
more problematic and indicate a bacterial infection.

Everyone says, however, that it's very difficult or impossible to 
brew something that will actually do you harm.  So I'd bottle it or 
keg it and carbonate and give it a try before dumping it.

I attempted a pLambic Kriek a few years ago that grew a white film 
over all the cherries in the beer and looked for all the world like 
dog vomit.  It didn't taste much better either when I bottled it, but 
I've been leaving it in the closet and trying it every 6 months and 
it's actually to the point now, 2 years later, where it's pretty 
decent.  Who would've guessed?

Peter


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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:37:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Nick Dempsey <npdempse at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous?

> >I have a batch of beer that's been sitting in a secondary for over 8 months
> >now.  (Yeah, I know, I know)  It's developed a thin white layer of...
> >something over the top of the beer.  I was all set to wipe a tear from my
> >eye and dump the beer when I noticed something odd.  When I picked up the
> >glass secondary the beer, naturally, shook around a fair amount.  The white
> >stuff, however, didn't dissolve as I'd expected, but broke into torn
> >segments.  Five days later they're still in thin, discrete segments.
> >
> >Anyone with any experience with this?  It this salvageable (without
> >incurring really serious illness)?  My guess is that the bacterial
> >infection is throughout the beer, but I figured it was worth asking the
> >collective.
> 
Does it look like the beer in the upper right corner on this page:
http://www.bodensatz.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=FermentationFotos

We had this infection in a couple of batches a while ago. The beer below
it was drinkable--sour, not really good, but drinkable. Anyway, I stick to
the adage that nothing in beer can kill you. But it can make you retch a
little. 



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Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:30:33 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: How *NOT* to clean a fermenter

In HBD 4419, Steve is upset with my using a ScotchBrite pad to clean the 
interior of my stainless steel fermenter, because it will create 
microscopic scratches in which bacteria might hide.

Now I always read Steve's posts with great attention and interest, because 
I have found him to be one of the best sources of good information on this 
digest.  I've also saved copies of several such posts for later 
reference.  But in this case, I suspect Steve's objection may get more 
mileage in theory than in practical reality.  My principal reason for this 
suspicion is that my fermenter, when new, had a finish that was nowhere 
near as pristine as Steve claims to be necessary.  Having been formed by 
"spinning", my fermenter had many grooves and scratches in its surface, 
which one might interpret as making it "doomed from the start".  But I have 
been using it, and cleaning it the same way, for a little over four years, 
with never a hint of infection.  I have also cleaned my Corny kegs 
the  same way with similar lack of any unpleasant results, and I have been 
using those kegs for about eight years.  Maybe I'm just lucky.  But if so, 
I'm quite satisfied with my luck so far.

And I don't think chemical cleaners are any "magic bullet" either because 
they can be prevented from working if the crud you're trying to remove is 
encapsulated in material that is impervious to the cleaner.  That 
happens.  Does your dishwasher always get your dishes clean?

Steve also refers to existence of a surface smoothness standard for 
fermenters.  Having worked as an engineer for over forty years, I 
appreciate the need for and value of standards, but I also know that a good 
standard is written to "fail safe".  That is, if one follows the standard, 
then success is probably assured.  But standards don't necessarily specify 
the one-and-only-way to success.

So I remain unconvinced at this point.  But I'm still open to a more 
detailed argument.  And ScotchBrite or not, I still think it's a waste of 
time and money to use expensive chemicals for a half-hour or longer soak to 
do what one can do in a few minutes with TSP or washing soda and a sponge.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:10:15 -0600
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous?

I used to see a film on my wines/ciders when I used Campbden tablets.
This was apparently from the filler in my tablets. Now that I've
switched to straight postassium metabisulfite, it's not a problem any
more.

One thing I'd like to stress here, though, is the only serious danger
from an infection in a batch of beer is a ruined batch of beer. In many
cases, the beer will still be drinkable, but may not be enjoyable. For
instance, the horsy flavor from a brett infection in a pils would ruin
the beer for most people even though it's not infected enough to make
the beer undrinkable.

Any infection which might produce something toxic is also going to make
the beer undrinkable. For instance, I believe some infections produce
butyric acid. In the amounts produced in even a heavily infected batch
of beer, I don't think you could drink enough of the stuff to do
yourself any harm (although the odor and/or taste might make you retch).

So whenever you think a batch of beer might be infected, taste it. If it
tastes fine, you're either fine or you need to drink the beer quickly
before the off flavor develops. If it doesn't, you might need to dump
the beer and look at your cleaning/sanitation procedures.

I'm sure you could poison yourself with a batch of beer, but you'd have
to do it through contamination (heavy metals) or adjuncts (dangerous
amounts of some herbs). You have a far greater risk from just drinking
too much.

However, I do look forward to the inevitable contradictions from those
of you with more knowledge of the relevant medical literature. I am not
a doctor, allergies and some medical conditions may cause your mileage
to vary, etc., etc.

Michael
Middleton WI


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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:51:57 -0500
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: Re: New Belgium Trippel

Craig,
I just toured NB in October, and during the tour one of the
questions I asked is whether or not  the yeast used for
bottle conditioning was the fermentation strain. The
response was 'That is proprietary information', which I took
as a 'No'. But one of the great things they do is hand out a
stat sheet that lists all their beers, %ABW, Cal/Carbs, IBU,
pH, Hops & spices, and malts.

New Belgium Trippel
8.7% ABW
240 Cal
17.4 grams carbs per 12 oz
30 IBU
4.38 pH
Saaz, Liberty, Magnum Hops
Coriander
Pale, Munich, Victory Malt


Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN [421.8, 168.5] AR
http://hbd.org/franklin





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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:24:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Nother corny keg cleaning idea & thank yous'

Gary Smith proposed using his peristaltic pump to CIP
his cornies, and not have to disassemble the posts.

Gary, you might get away with that most of the time,
but sooner or later you'll probably wind up with an
infected batch.  You really can't rely on the
sanitizer to have contact with all of the surfaces,
especially in the posts.  There will usually be some
surface where air or CO2 is trapped, preventing the
sanitizer from doing its job.  The only way to be
certain you have contact is to disassemble the posts,
remove the O-rings, popets, dip tubes and dip tube
gaskets and soak them.  Also, be sure to remove the
large O-ring from the cornie lid and soak it.  With
the many excellent sanitizers available to brewers it
only takes a few minutes to be safe.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:01:12 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Thermocouples and other necessary brewing gadgets.

Todd M. Snyder, who has thermocouple envy, rails at Jeff::

<Granted, the equipment to do it properly is expensive and isn't common in
breweries. >
"Common?   I've got $20 that says it's 'non-existant'."

Hah! You owe him 20$.  Not only that, but I have a set of HyCal calibration
ovens in my garage brewery, so I can get nice calibration points at 150,
300, 450 and 600C.  They go nice with my HyCal reference junctions.  And to
calibrate my Heise gauge (which I can use to measure the pressure in a yeast
fart), I have a nice dead-weight tester.  I don't use RTDs, but if I did,
I'd have to get myself a triple point cell, so I can accurately measure the
resistance at 0.01C for calibration purposes.

I just wish my spectrophotometer had the really short UV wavelengths, so I
could measure the bitterness of my brew. I need something that will go down
in the 190nm range, but mine doesn't go below 340nm.  Been keeping my eye
out on eBay for an old Perkins-Elmer UV-VIS unit up here in the Northwest...

You mean you don't have these things?  My Gawd, man, how do you brew beer?

<g>
Mike Sharp
(my calibration equipment takes up almost as much space as my brewery...)


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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:31:06 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Pending Lambic Legislation 

Danger, danger, Will Robinson!!

I received an email from a friend & fellow Hogtown Brewer, Jim Ritchart. Jim
is our club Belgian fanatic and has just returned from one of his frequent
trips to Belgium. He alerted me to the following -

One of the members of the Belgium Parliament is pushing a bill that will
tighten and enforce the existing food and beverage hygenic laws in Belgium.
Part
of the existing law that is to be enforced reads in effect that 'any food or
beverage that is manufactured and sold in Belgium must meet strict hygenic
standards including but not limited to......
any food or beverage processing plant that manufacturers for public sale or
consumption, must insure that during the processing of these products, at no
time will they come in contact with airborne particulate....

The brewers and brewing clubs in Belgium are very concerned, because lambic
production has been mentioned during the talks on this subject. They fear that
if the new bill goes through, the few remaining Lambic and Gueze producers
will be forced to close their doors. De Troch brewery has already stated that
they will immediatly cease production if the law is passed.

Of course, as Americans there is not much we can do but watch and pray that
this will not happen. (At least for those of us that love this style of beer.)

Jim R

Do any of you have any further info on this? Where in the process and/or how
likely is this bill to pass? You would think that if lambic production was
specifically mentioned in the discussions, some Belgian legislator/beer lover
would have suggested exempting it from the legislation. Despite the fact that
Belgium is in many ways a very modern & highly industrialized country, they
also have an incredible wealth of (and appreciation for) beer culture. I
understand that lambic is a small, niche style but seems like it'd have
supporters that would be up in arms for an exemption. Jim says there's not
much we can do (as Americans), and he may be right. But..... I'd be willing to
write emails/letters to Belgian legislators if I could find a site with
addresses. The world without lambic would be a drearier place. Any one have
any more info about this?

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:31:36 -0500
From: George de Piro <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Lagering and conditioning / white film / PBW

Hi all,

John K. writes in asking how best to age a pilsner in a corny keg,
specifically wondering about whether or not to carbonate it and how much
pressure to store it under.

In my experience, it is best to carbonate the beer and leave the keg
pressurized to maintain the proper degree of carbonation.  Corny kegs have
the nasty habit of sometimes developing insidiously slow leaks, and are
especially difficult to seal with no or very low pressure.  Keeping it at 12
psi or so will help keep it sealed.

I am a big fan of conditioning homebrew in corny kegs because they can
better exclude oxygen and other contaminants from the beer.  They are also
much less fragile than glass carboys.  You can easily get samples from the
keg/lagering tank to taste as the beer ages, too (just tap the keg).  Of
course, if you become overzealous in your sampling you may end up with too
little finished beer...
- --------------
Tom Franklin asks what the white stuff is floating on his beer.  It is
called a pellicle, and was likely formed by bacteria.  Does the beer taste
like vinegar?  After 8 months in a carboy, the beer very likely has had
substantial oxygen uptake, allowing acetobacter to grow.  It won't hurt you,
and other, less flavor offensive organisms can also form pellicles, so give
it a try.
- --------------
Nephi asks about how long PBW can safely remain in contact with stainless
steel.  Prolonged contact (1-2 weeks) with stainless doesn't cause
corrosion, but if you allow the PBW solution to evaporate and dry onto the
steel, you will have a VERY difficult time getting the white residue off.

PBW is spent as it cleans.  It is best, and easiest, to just measure out the
amount you need for a specific task.

I think that PBW is a rather expensive product for home brewers.  Much
homebrewery cleaning can be accomplished using a bleach solution.  It is
very effective, doubles as a sanitizer, and is readily available and cheap.

Have fun!

George de Piro
Head Brewer, C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
19 Quackenbush Square
Albany, NY, USA 12207
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Brewers of Kick-Ass Brown:  Twice declared the Best American Brown Ale in
the USA at the Great American Beer Festival (2000 & 2002)!



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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:26 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: New Belgium Trippel

Craig,
I can't get New Belgium beers where I live, but several years ago I got my 
hands on a bottle of New Belgium Trippel, and I cultured up the yeast in 
the bottle and made the best trippel I have ever made, bar none. I've made 
many trippels over the years, with many different strains of belgian yeast, 
but this one was the best. It wasn't phenolic, but was definitely 
belgian-like, and had a very  complex, tantalizing tropical fruit character.
Trouble is, I don't know if they changed things since then and started 
bottling with a different strain. Seems to me it was rumored that they used 
a different bottling strain back then, too, but I can't be sure.




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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:02:04 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: How *NOT* to clean a fermenter

David Towson writes,

> In HBD 4419, Steve is upset with my using a ScotchBrite pad to clean the
> [...]  fermenter, [...]
> My [...]  fermenter, when new, had a finish that was nowhere
> near as pristine as Steve claims to be necessary.

I'm sorry to hear that.  You'd think for the huge price tag of some SS
CCVs that they'd meet commercial sanitary specs.

I never said it was "necessary", except for commercial sanitation laws, but
there are  few sorts of added infection risk that any of us would choose;
for that reason it's foolish to scratch up a fermenter with abrasives.
I've known nice beers  fermented in scratched plastic pails, but why take
the chance ?  You won't convince me that smooth surfaces are "necessary",
but you also won't convince me that increasing an infection risk is
reasonable.

Kunze (TB&M, pp367) writes that electropolishing is used to reduce surface
roughness to 0.3 to 0.4 um.  On the bottom and cone he notes that such low
surface roughness is necessary in the cone to prevent "the settling of
contaminating microorganisms"..  His comments about the accumulation of
bacterial and wild fungi with sub-micron dimensions on rougher surfaces is
pretty clear.

>And ScotchBrite or not, I still think it's a waste of
> time and money to use expensive chemicals for a half-hour or longer soak
to
> do what one can do in a few minutes with TSP or washing soda and a sponge.

I agree with Dave's comments about using cheap alkaline cleaners in
preference to expensive ones.  I can't agree that a few minutes with TSP is
comparable to longer contact times for proper cleaning.

Here is an article (which unfortunately advocates abrasive green-scrubbies)
on biofilm formation.
http://www.birkocorp.com/brewing/biofilms.asp
and another on beerstone
http://www.birkocorp.com/brewing/beerstone.asp
The point is that the surface biofilms adhere to the rough surface and are
remarkably resistant to cleaners and sanitizers.  Longer contact times can
help with this.  The alkaline cleaners Dave uses do little to remove
beerstone - which exacerbates the infection risk.

On cheap alkalines ... Automatic dishwasher detergents usually contain
chlorine and should be used with care on stainless, but unscented ones are
good for glass and plastic.   Oxiclean's MSDS lists only sodium carbonate
and percarbonate and it does a nice job on stainless.  Some deck cleaners
are mostly sodium percarbonate, but I'd worry about the other ingredients.
The most severe caustics, sodium and potassium hydroxide are available as
drain cleaners.  In several (US) states one can no longer buy TSP(tri-sodium
phosphate) retail.due to environmental concerns, though it may still be
purchased in paint stores aimed at professionals.  For economic and
environmental reasons it's sensible to store and  reuse these cleaners a few
times.

Alkaline cleaners (all the above) are not effective on beerstone (they even
enhance beerstone)  and beerstone coupled with grooves and recesses are an
infection risk.  With a non-smooth opaque surface it's difficult to see
filmy beerstone accumulation that might protect bacteria.  Acids necessary
to clean beerstone are generally  harmless to plastic and glass, but can
easily damage stainless.

I'll let a metallurgist address the issue of how to acid clean beerstone
from stainless without causing damage.  I'd also like to understand how
potentially corrosive chlorine compounds (like Oxine(chlorine dioxide))
can/should be safely used on stainless.   Got time John Palmer ?.

 -Steve Alexander




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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:13:12 -0500
From: "Jeff & Ellen" <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: sweaty socks?

Jay Spies of Baltimore wrote about two batches of beer that had butter and
sweat socks in the aroma.  He thought it may be Pediococcus damnosus, but
that seems unlikely, since it only affected two batches.  Were the beers
very sour?  I'm pretty sure that damnosus will cause sour flavors, although
I'm not positive.

In the FlavorActiV beer taste trouble shooting kit, available through the
AHA, there is a description of isovolaric acid as "a cheesy flavor, which
reminds some people of sweaty socks."   It says that this flavor is from
using old or degraded hops and that the intensity increases at a low pH
value.  Did you by chance use the same hops in these two brews?

Jeff Gladish, Tampa, FL



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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:51:11 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Link of the week - Dec 6 2003

This week's link highlights Samichlaus ("Santa Claus", in Swiss German)
beer, the strongest commercial lagered beer. It is brewed only once a
year on December 6th and then bottled in following October.

The current brewer's website:
  http://www.eggenberger.at/frames_flash.htm
(Warning, this has annoying frames and Flash)

Searching on the web for recipes reveals a few.  This one by
Marc Sedam looks like one of the best for an all-grain version:
  http://ericsbeerpage.com/Beer/Recipe/samichlaus.html

Or try cooking with it:
  http://www.alestreetnews.com/Features/info5.html

Bob Devine


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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 18:02:14 -0500
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject: Dunkelweizen

I'm wanting to make a dunkelweizen, one with less of the clovey/banana,
much like the Shiner W8nter Ale I'm sipping on tonight. The recipe in
the article in Sept/Oct Brew Your Own sounds like it'll fit the bill.
The problem for me with it is that I mash in a Gott so I can't do the
step mash. Can I get around this? Also, any suggestions for yeast to err
on the less rather than more side of the above-mentioned spices? The
recipe suggests Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen or White Labs WLP380
Hefeweizen IV.

Thanks for all of the great info here on HBD. I've been brewing about
two years and just got second runner-up in the Queen of Beer
Competition!

Jodie Davis
www.iejodie.com
www.friendsinthebee.com

 





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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:16:36 -0500
From: Steven Thomas <fabricus at hvi.net>
Subject: Subject: RE: Beer or Something More Dangerous?   

Howdy--
    In HBD #4418 Tom Franklin talks about a film growth on the beer surface 
in a carboy.  I've had that one.  The variety I have had likes warm 
conditions and needs some air.  The most common occurance is in 
incompletely filled carboys in the summertime.  My guess is that it is a 
microaerophillic yeast akin to the Mycoderma vini or sherry flor.
    The beer is drinkable, no off flavors as such, but an odd and 
unappealing quality that seems to be a dissolved gas that comes out of 
solution after swollowing 'riding the burp'.
    The best course is prevention; it needs air, so maintain a blanket of 
CO2 over any beer underfilled or disturbed for sampling in the summer.
                  --Steve Thomas




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