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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  How *NOT* to clean a fermenter ("Doug A Moller")
  Fuller's Products (Fred Johnson)
  RE: New Belgium Trippel (Steve Jones)
  Malty and Dry: The Holy Grail ("Dave Draper")
  probe envy ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Speaking of Cleansers... (rickdude02)
  PID, Peltiers, heatmats,RTDs, Power supplies and the whole sheban (Bjoern.Thegeby)
  3 gallon corny keg turned into a Hop Back ("Steve Hill")
  Damnosus follow up ("Jay Spies")
  Re: tackling oxygen [and more] (another follow up) ("Fredrik")
  thermocouples (Mark Beck)
  PET carboys (Michael)
  politics of hatred & beer. ("-S")
  5th Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results ("H. Dowda")


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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 06:10:06 -0600
From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com>
Subject: How *NOT* to clean a fermenter

YOW !!!   Do *NOT NOT NOT* do what Dave has done.

Scotchbrite and comparable plastic scrubbing pads have abrasive qualities
similar to fine sandpaper.  It will scratch glass and stainless.  The
interior surfaces and joints of a fermenter *should* be polished

)Polishing anything uses abrasive to produce a shiny apperance. I worked at
a SS shop were we fabricated and finished anything from touring buses(mirrir
finish with rouge) to pharmaceutical tanks. At that time there was no law on
finish yet established but recomended a #4 witch is a 160 grit An #8(high
polish) is from a 320 grit. To eletropolish you first need a #8 finish! Most
of the polishing for food grade stainless is done with scotch brite in
various qualities. If you look at these finishes with a 70 power hand scope
they look like mountain ranges. The smoothest material I looked was the 2b
mill finish that has the dull grey look. I have worked in several breweries
and used polished and 2b material with excellent results. I use a homemade
cip system after just rubbing off what can be removed by hand cloth. Try
cold water on some of the more unrully protiens with a spray gun.(

 with all with proper cleaning. to a very
high degree to prevent grooves where bacteria and fungi can trap.   There is
a spec (by the NSF in the US I think) that describes how smooth the
interiors of commercial fermenters must be.  Scrubbing the interior of a
fermenter with a scotchbrite type pad will make it unusable for meeting
sanitary specs.

Doug A Moller
Brewmaster
Oklahoma Brewing Ltd Co
brewmaster at intergate.com
20301 Palomino Way
Macomb, OK 74852-8808
405-226-3111



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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:06:36 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Fuller's Products

I haven't seen any Fuller's products in many months here in North 
Carolina, at least not on tap or in the bottle at my favorite watering 
holes. Is there a distribution problem in this particular distribution 
region/state? Anyone else notice this? I heard rumor that the 
distributor (for the US?) had some problem with Fuller's or perhaps 
with the US government. I'm sure this is all hogwash, but I want my 
ESB!

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 08:12:06 -0500
From: Steve Jones <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: New Belgium Trippel

After seeing Randy's post on how great his trippel was 
when he cultured the yeast from the NB Trippel, I guess 
I'll have to give it a try. It may be that the 
'proprietary information' answer meant 'It is, but we're 
not going to admit it.'.

I picked up a sixer when I visited in October, so I'm 
going to culture it up and brew a trippel. Since I'm a 
yeast banker, I'll probably hang on to it for a while. Now 
to find a decent microscope so I can be sure it is pure 
 ...



Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR


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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:30:35 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Malty and Dry: The Holy Grail

Dear Friends,  

During the recent discussion regarding the relation (or lack thereof) 
between yeast attenuation and malty character in the beer, several 
posters have made mention of beers that are both malty and dry.  I 
just wanted to spawn a new thread here to focus on that a bit, 
because to me it's the "Holy Grail" of brewing: it is both the most 
difficult target I've tried to hit in terms of brewing execution and my 
second-most-favorite beer flavor experience of them all (right behind 
the killer-hophead experience).  Example commercial brews that have 
this magical combination are rare; the ones that spring to mind are 
the Ayinger amber lagers (drooling already).    

So, what are the factors that can give us the best chance to achieve 
an end result that is both malty and dry?  Clearly choice of yeast 
strains is key; I've had my best luck hitting this target (which I've 
managed only half a dozen times to my complete satisfaction, I 
reckon) using Wyeast 2112 and 2206.  Mash temperature regime is 
another obvious one; lower mash T's would in general yield something 
drier, or alternatively if one is doing a 60-70C thing, then more time at 
60 than for sweeter beers.  Grist composition is also major: my few 
successes in this typically contained about 20 to 30% Munich malt, in 
some combination of dark and light kilning, and in one case some 
Vienna malt.  I think most of my good versions used a pils malt for 
the base malt, but I also seem to recall at least one used ale malt; 
and they were all attempts at lagers rather than ales.  Are there 
particular particular specs in the base malt that are favored for this 
too?  Not to mention fermentation T, water composition, etc...   

I'd love to hear from those of you that have given this some thought 
and effort. What has been the best combination of factors for you?   

Cheers, Dave in ABQ  

On tap: Jemez IPA (65+ IBU), Chocolate Moose Porter (ten BILLION 
srm), Chewy's Amber Ale. In secondary: Self EsSteam (CA common). 
In primary: Marzen Rocks! (latest quest for the Holy Grail). Next 
batch: Northern British bitter.   


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot Name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html
Just what we need, another wanker with an attitude!
    ---Rob Moline (aka Jethro Gump)






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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:45:20 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: probe envy

Mike,

Thanks for making me laugh this AM, great post!

However, I'm not paying anyone $20 until they find a _brewery_ (meaning
commercial) with the three items Jeff listed!

Todd,
Determining temperature via mercury bulb in Buffalo, NY




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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:15:13 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: rickdude02 at earthlink.net
Subject: Speaking of Cleansers...

George DePiro says:

>I think that PBW is a rather expensive product for home brewers.  
>Much homebrewery cleaning can be accomplished using a bleach 
>solution.  It is very effective, doubles as a sanitizer, and is readily 
>available and cheap.

First off, I agree that bleach is cheap and effective.  But watch out 
for stainless contact, because bleach does have an impact on it 
that can cause rusting over time.  And watch out for plastic contact, 
because bleach can make it brittle over time.

I'm not just being facetious-- I'll use bleach from time to time as
well.

Second, I agree that PBW is an expensive product for homebrewers.
In fact, I am amazed that it is typically almost twice as expensive
as the product I make, Straight-A, because they're essentially the
same thing.  (BTW, Straight-A was first to the market, not the 
other way around, in case you were wondering.)  And I might 
add that Five Star has much lower fixed costs in relation to profit
than I do, but no one has noticed how they've been getting gigged.

That's all I'll say at the moment, 'cos I'm already thinking that Pat
might bounce this note...

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
www.ecologiccleansers.com


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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:16:42 +0100 
From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int
Subject: PID, Peltiers, heatmats,RTDs, Power supplies and the whole sheban

Living in Belgium, where a/c does not exist, 5 months 
of the year are dry from a brewing perspective. With a 
garage at 26C, even ale brewing is impossible.

I have decided not to heed the ominous warnings of the 
fraternity and go ahead and build a Peltier temperature 
controlled fermenter. Clearly there is a case to be made 
for excessive power consumption but I have now sourced 
all the pieces except power switches and jacks from eBay 
for about $50.

PID controller Eurotherm 808	20.50
RTD probe				 8,50
SSR DC 40A Relay			10.42
2pcs 100W peltier TEC		14.20

In addition I cannibalised a an old CPU cooler and a PC 
power supply to get 12V 20A current and am putting it all 
in a case. Each Peltier is supposedly capable to removing 
290 BTU/Hour. If that holds true, one may be enough to 
remove the fermentation energy and keep the fermenter 
below ambient. We are not talking about ramping the 
temperature by degrees C/minute here. I bought the second 
for the extra margin. One thing to consider if you are 
going down this path is to use a GFI, ground all equipment 
and remember that 12V 20A current can make a lovely arc...

This setup gives me the option of cooling the fermenter through
the Peltier, or heating it with a low watt heating pad. 
The PID will regulate it to limit swings and my hope is that
power consumption will remain limited, at least for my usual 
ales. (The power supply requires a permanent 10 Ohm load on the 
5V rail and the SSR produces heat as well, in addition to the 
Peltier effect.) I would agree that a fridge is more sensible 
for those who mainly do lager brewing.

An important factor for me is the space saving. The control 
system takes up 22 x 25 x 12 cm. The strap-on Peltier and the 
insulation can be removed and stowed away during the cool season. 
One more fridge, to add to the serving fridge, would seriously 
affect garage space and hence SWMBO brewing harmony.

I have all but finished the controller assembly. The Peltier 
is still in the US and I will have to make(or have made) a 
copper or aluminium block to fit between it and the fermenter.

As many of you no doubt have noticed the design borrows a lot 
from the Beer, Beer and More Beer setups. I am certain that 
you would get a far more professional system from them, but 
I just wanted to show that I believe you can do it rather 
cheaper. Once it has been all assemble and I have real-life 
data, I will post them, hopefully together with a how-to.

Cheers 
Bjorn T


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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:52:50 -0500
From: "Steve Hill" <shill at cornerstoneloans.org>
Subject: 3 gallon corny keg turned into a Hop Back

Has anyone turned a 3 gallon corny keg into a hop back? If so, do you have a
link or schematic I can use?

Thanks a ton.
Steve

stevehill at comcast.net




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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:26:51 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: Damnosus follow up

All -

Thanks for all the responses to my recent question about the 2
non-sequential infected batches...

I think I have narrowed it down.......

Not the chiller:  I use an immersion chiller and it's sitting in the boil
for half an hour.

Not the hops being old:  I only use fresh whole hops - I buy them as I need
them.

Not malt dust:  I mill in the basement three floors from my brewery.

Could be the fermenter:  I *totally* disassembled it (undid the internal
swagelok fittings) and found a tiny black spot on an internal thread.  So I
scrubbed it off and boiled the crap out of the whole valve assembly in
pieces before my Duvel clone batch yesterday.  Then I Star-San'd the inside
of the fermenter.

Probably the yeast:  Several folks mentioned that I may have overpitched the
dry yeast.  Some dry yeasts have miniscule bacterial contamination and it
may have carried over with the massive quantities that I pitched ( I think
on a # of cells/volume scale I had pitched above commercial levels) and this
combined with the low alcohol levels and light flavors of the 2 batches in
question allowed this bacteria to multiply and leave butter and sweat socks
all over my otherwise nice beers (these beers were on the yeast for upwards
of a month apiece.)

That's all I can figure...anybody see anything I may have missed?

Thanks again for all the advice...

Jay Spies
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:12:25 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: tackling oxygen [and more] (another follow up)


Thanks for your great responses Steve!

> > > I have assumed that this connection as a first approximation to be one
> of
> > > simple ATP power generation utilizing glycogen and trehalose and the
> main
> > > reason why old yeast have so long lag times
> >
> > I used to think the same thing, but it's easy to poke some holes in the
> > argument.
> >
> > Trehalose has clear value as a functional carbohydrate, but trehalose
> > does not produce ATP in it's dissimilation !  Trehalose levels rise in
> > response to all sorts of cell stress, and it's presence appears to
> > stabilize yeast and reduce stress during storage.   Glycogen is

Hmmm interesting. I don't understand trehalose yet. So would act like
emergency stock of spare carbon? for repairs of stress damage? or does it
work any other way?

I thought it would generate ATP as well though possible less than glycogen?
I checked the S.Cerevisae genome database and it seems both trehalose and
glycogen are dissimilated into glucose-6-phosphate but that trehalose needs
one ATP for that step, while glycogen doens't. Glycolysis yields 2 ATP? but
maye I didn't read it as carefully.

> > "Lag time" is the time from pitching to the first CO2 release (after the
> > wort approaches 1 atm of CO2.  Long lag times imply poor fermentation
> > progress, and in very healthy yeast at proper pitching levels the
> > fermentation
> > of glycogen stores alone are sufficient to saturate wort with CO2 - give
> or
> > take a little.

Isn't the biologists definition of the lag time for a cell as the time from
pitching to the time the cell is active, and a budding cycle is initiated?

I like to make a distinction between the apparent lag (first appearance of
CO2 in airlock) and the intrinsic lag, and CO2 production from the yeast. So
far I haven't done very much tests to have a clear opnion what can be
attributed to saturation times and what are really intrinsic lags. So I am
attempting to account for variations in both. The saturation lag should be
straightforward to model once you know the production rate, so I am
currently trying to focus on understanding the intrinsic lag.

Are you suggesting that the intrinsic lag is insignificant compared to the
apparent or saturation lag?

The idea to model lag (transition from dormant state to active state) is to
consider

 - depletion of glycogen, to power sterol synthesis
 - sterol synthesis utilizing oxygen & carbohydrates(glycogen or external
sugars- whichever is quickest/available)
 - utilization of external sugars (function of membrane quality)
 - building membrane quality (function of levels of sterols, UFAs)
 - transition from dormant to active, correlated to membrane quality
 - UFA synthesis

I was thinkg that building that building the membrane requires a certains
amount of carbohydrates, and if the glycogens aren't enough, utilization of
externals are the only option. This could explain the slow start. The idea
is that the rate of cells entering the active state is proportional to the #
dormant cells, wher the rate constant is a function of membrane quality
(assumed to be correlated to cell health in general). If sterol synthesis
halts or slows, due to any limiting factor like glycogen depletion, oxygen
depletion, the intrinsic lag will increase.

Referring to you mentioning poking holes in the idea, can you see a major
flaw in this idea? If so where?

Any idea where trehalose would enter here? that's one of the missing pieces
it seems.

> >
> > I posted a more detailed message on ester production two years ago ...
> > http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3729.html
 > > Also see Andy Walsh's excellent note at:
> > http://hbd.org/brewery/library/EstFormAW0696.html

Yes, I've seen these posts before, they are both very excellent summaries!!

> >
> > -Steve Alexander
> >
> >

 /Fredrik


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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:26:28 -0800
From: Mark Beck <beckmk at whitman.edu>
Subject: thermocouples

Thermocouples seem to be getting a bad rap here.  I use a K-type 
thermocouple when I brew.  Mine is speced with an accuracy of +/- 2 deg. 
C.  Keep in mind though that this is absolute accuracy, not a random 
error--the readings are very reapeatable.  I calibrated mine, and found 
that it was accurate to within 1 deg. F between freezing and boiling, and 
that's accurate enough for brewing as far as I'm concerned.  I get bigger 
temperature variations than that at different locations in my mash tun.

Mark
Walla Walla, WA



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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:56:30 -0600
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: PET carboys

I notice that Williams Brewing is selling PET (polyethylene terephthalate
copolymer, apparently) carboys. Apparently these are "unbreakable"
and less permeable to oxygen than the plastic buckets.

Anyone know a) how these would compare to glass in terms of oxygen
permeability and b) if there are any downsides to using these that I'm
not thinking of?

Michael
Middleton WI


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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:10:52 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: politics of hatred & beer.

OK - I know I shouldn't bite this troll, but ... Randi Richi posted a
supposedly humorous bit last week painting conservatives as real beer people
and liberals are limp-wristed quiche eaters.  I don't care if it's an Ann
Coulter or an Al Franken spouting this junk; without mutual respect for
differing ideas civil society is over.  The last election hinged on
polarizing caricatures of Bush as a moron cowboy and Gore as a stuck-up
confabulating liar with no serious examination of their ideas.  It would be
astonishing if things could get worse - but I expect to be astonished by
next election day.

I object to the misused terms "liberal" and "conservative".  Conservatism is
about conserving previous social systems and morals while Jeffersonian
liberalism is about maximal personal liberty and minimal government.   It's
ridiculous to assert that actual conservatives, for example Jerry Falwell
and John Ashcroft (of naked statue fame), are "real beer people" while
liberals (or Libertarians)  like Clint Eastwood, P.J.O'Rourke, Penn&Teller,
Frank Zappa,  Jesse Ventura and H.L.Mencken are quiche eating wimps.  The US
Democratic party adheres primarily to socialist ideology, much like the UKs
'Social Democrats'.   That's a respectable position, but has nothing to do
with liberalism.

We'd all be better off sharing a beer and a chat with those of opposing
ideas rather aiming unjust personal insults at them.  Counter to Randi's
assertions, real conservatives never drink alcohol so sharing a beer may be
problematic !

 -S




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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:27:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: 5th Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results

Results of th 5th Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open
are posted.

http://www.sagecat.com/psb/psbo5results.htm





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