HOMEBREW Digest #4421 Tue 09 December 2003

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  How *NOT* to clean a fermenter ("Doug A Moller")
  Fuller's Products (Fred Johnson)
  RE: New Belgium Trippel (Steve Jones)
  Malty and Dry: The Holy Grail ("Dave Draper")
  probe envy ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Speaking of Cleansers... (rickdude02)
  PID, Peltiers, heatmats,RTDs, Power supplies and the whole sheban (Bjoern.Thegeby)
  3 gallon corny keg turned into a Hop Back ("Steve Hill")
  Damnosus follow up ("Jay Spies")
  Re: tackling oxygen [and more] (another follow up) ("Fredrik")
  thermocouples (Mark Beck)
  PET carboys (Michael)
  politics of hatred & beer. ("-S")
  5th Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results ("H. Dowda")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 06:10:06 -0600 From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com> Subject: How *NOT* to clean a fermenter YOW !!! Do *NOT NOT NOT* do what Dave has done. Scotchbrite and comparable plastic scrubbing pads have abrasive qualities similar to fine sandpaper. It will scratch glass and stainless. The interior surfaces and joints of a fermenter *should* be polished )Polishing anything uses abrasive to produce a shiny apperance. I worked at a SS shop were we fabricated and finished anything from touring buses(mirrir finish with rouge) to pharmaceutical tanks. At that time there was no law on finish yet established but recomended a #4 witch is a 160 grit An #8(high polish) is from a 320 grit. To eletropolish you first need a #8 finish! Most of the polishing for food grade stainless is done with scotch brite in various qualities. If you look at these finishes with a 70 power hand scope they look like mountain ranges. The smoothest material I looked was the 2b mill finish that has the dull grey look. I have worked in several breweries and used polished and 2b material with excellent results. I use a homemade cip system after just rubbing off what can be removed by hand cloth. Try cold water on some of the more unrully protiens with a spray gun.( with all with proper cleaning. to a very high degree to prevent grooves where bacteria and fungi can trap. There is a spec (by the NSF in the US I think) that describes how smooth the interiors of commercial fermenters must be. Scrubbing the interior of a fermenter with a scotchbrite type pad will make it unusable for meeting sanitary specs. Doug A Moller Brewmaster Oklahoma Brewing Ltd Co brewmaster at intergate.com 20301 Palomino Way Macomb, OK 74852-8808 405-226-3111 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:06:36 -0500 From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> Subject: Fuller's Products I haven't seen any Fuller's products in many months here in North Carolina, at least not on tap or in the bottle at my favorite watering holes. Is there a distribution problem in this particular distribution region/state? Anyone else notice this? I heard rumor that the distributor (for the US?) had some problem with Fuller's or perhaps with the US government. I'm sure this is all hogwash, but I want my ESB! Fred L Johnson Apex, North Carolina, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 08:12:06 -0500 From: Steve Jones <stjones1 at chartertn.net> Subject: RE: New Belgium Trippel After seeing Randy's post on how great his trippel was when he cultured the yeast from the NB Trippel, I guess I'll have to give it a try. It may be that the 'proprietary information' answer meant 'It is, but we're not going to admit it.'. I picked up a sixer when I visited in October, so I'm going to culture it up and brew a trippel. Since I'm a yeast banker, I'll probably hang on to it for a while. Now to find a decent microscope so I can be sure it is pure ... Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin) [421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:30:35 -0700 From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name> Subject: Malty and Dry: The Holy Grail Dear Friends, During the recent discussion regarding the relation (or lack thereof) between yeast attenuation and malty character in the beer, several posters have made mention of beers that are both malty and dry. I just wanted to spawn a new thread here to focus on that a bit, because to me it's the "Holy Grail" of brewing: it is both the most difficult target I've tried to hit in terms of brewing execution and my second-most-favorite beer flavor experience of them all (right behind the killer-hophead experience). Example commercial brews that have this magical combination are rare; the ones that spring to mind are the Ayinger amber lagers (drooling already). So, what are the factors that can give us the best chance to achieve an end result that is both malty and dry? Clearly choice of yeast strains is key; I've had my best luck hitting this target (which I've managed only half a dozen times to my complete satisfaction, I reckon) using Wyeast 2112 and 2206. Mash temperature regime is another obvious one; lower mash T's would in general yield something drier, or alternatively if one is doing a 60-70C thing, then more time at 60 than for sweeter beers. Grist composition is also major: my few successes in this typically contained about 20 to 30% Munich malt, in some combination of dark and light kilning, and in one case some Vienna malt. I think most of my good versions used a pils malt for the base malt, but I also seem to recall at least one used ale malt; and they were all attempts at lagers rather than ales. Are there particular particular specs in the base malt that are favored for this too? Not to mention fermentation T, water composition, etc... I'd love to hear from those of you that have given this some thought and effort. What has been the best combination of factors for you? Cheers, Dave in ABQ On tap: Jemez IPA (65+ IBU), Chocolate Moose Porter (ten BILLION srm), Chewy's Amber Ale. In secondary: Self EsSteam (CA common). In primary: Marzen Rocks! (latest quest for the Holy Grail). Next batch: Northern British bitter. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico David at Draper dot Name Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html Just what we need, another wanker with an attitude! ---Rob Moline (aka Jethro Gump) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:45:20 -0500 From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu> Subject: probe envy Mike, Thanks for making me laugh this AM, great post! However, I'm not paying anyone $20 until they find a _brewery_ (meaning commercial) with the three items Jeff listed! Todd, Determining temperature via mercury bulb in Buffalo, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:15:13 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: rickdude02 at earthlink.net Subject: Speaking of Cleansers... George DePiro says: >I think that PBW is a rather expensive product for home brewers. >Much homebrewery cleaning can be accomplished using a bleach >solution. It is very effective, doubles as a sanitizer, and is readily >available and cheap. First off, I agree that bleach is cheap and effective. But watch out for stainless contact, because bleach does have an impact on it that can cause rusting over time. And watch out for plastic contact, because bleach can make it brittle over time. I'm not just being facetious-- I'll use bleach from time to time as well. Second, I agree that PBW is an expensive product for homebrewers. In fact, I am amazed that it is typically almost twice as expensive as the product I make, Straight-A, because they're essentially the same thing. (BTW, Straight-A was first to the market, not the other way around, in case you were wondering.) And I might add that Five Star has much lower fixed costs in relation to profit than I do, but no one has noticed how they've been getting gigged. That's all I'll say at the moment, 'cos I'm already thinking that Pat might bounce this note... Rick Theiner LOGIC, Inc. www.ecologiccleansers.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:16:42 +0100 From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int Subject: PID, Peltiers, heatmats,RTDs, Power supplies and the whole sheban Living in Belgium, where a/c does not exist, 5 months of the year are dry from a brewing perspective. With a garage at 26C, even ale brewing is impossible. I have decided not to heed the ominous warnings of the fraternity and go ahead and build a Peltier temperature controlled fermenter. Clearly there is a case to be made for excessive power consumption but I have now sourced all the pieces except power switches and jacks from eBay for about $50. PID controller Eurotherm 808 20.50 RTD probe 8,50 SSR DC 40A Relay 10.42 2pcs 100W peltier TEC 14.20 In addition I cannibalised a an old CPU cooler and a PC power supply to get 12V 20A current and am putting it all in a case. Each Peltier is supposedly capable to removing 290 BTU/Hour. If that holds true, one may be enough to remove the fermentation energy and keep the fermenter below ambient. We are not talking about ramping the temperature by degrees C/minute here. I bought the second for the extra margin. One thing to consider if you are going down this path is to use a GFI, ground all equipment and remember that 12V 20A current can make a lovely arc... This setup gives me the option of cooling the fermenter through the Peltier, or heating it with a low watt heating pad. The PID will regulate it to limit swings and my hope is that power consumption will remain limited, at least for my usual ales. (The power supply requires a permanent 10 Ohm load on the 5V rail and the SSR produces heat as well, in addition to the Peltier effect.) I would agree that a fridge is more sensible for those who mainly do lager brewing. An important factor for me is the space saving. The control system takes up 22 x 25 x 12 cm. The strap-on Peltier and the insulation can be removed and stowed away during the cool season. One more fridge, to add to the serving fridge, would seriously affect garage space and hence SWMBO brewing harmony. I have all but finished the controller assembly. The Peltier is still in the US and I will have to make(or have made) a copper or aluminium block to fit between it and the fermenter. As many of you no doubt have noticed the design borrows a lot from the Beer, Beer and More Beer setups. I am certain that you would get a far more professional system from them, but I just wanted to show that I believe you can do it rather cheaper. Once it has been all assemble and I have real-life data, I will post them, hopefully together with a how-to. Cheers Bjorn T Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:52:50 -0500 From: "Steve Hill" <shill at cornerstoneloans.org> Subject: 3 gallon corny keg turned into a Hop Back Has anyone turned a 3 gallon corny keg into a hop back? If so, do you have a link or schematic I can use? Thanks a ton. Steve stevehill at comcast.net Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:26:51 -0500 From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com> Subject: Damnosus follow up All - Thanks for all the responses to my recent question about the 2 non-sequential infected batches... I think I have narrowed it down....... Not the chiller: I use an immersion chiller and it's sitting in the boil for half an hour. Not the hops being old: I only use fresh whole hops - I buy them as I need them. Not malt dust: I mill in the basement three floors from my brewery. Could be the fermenter: I *totally* disassembled it (undid the internal swagelok fittings) and found a tiny black spot on an internal thread. So I scrubbed it off and boiled the crap out of the whole valve assembly in pieces before my Duvel clone batch yesterday. Then I Star-San'd the inside of the fermenter. Probably the yeast: Several folks mentioned that I may have overpitched the dry yeast. Some dry yeasts have miniscule bacterial contamination and it may have carried over with the massive quantities that I pitched ( I think on a # of cells/volume scale I had pitched above commercial levels) and this combined with the low alcohol levels and light flavors of the 2 batches in question allowed this bacteria to multiply and leave butter and sweat socks all over my otherwise nice beers (these beers were on the yeast for upwards of a month apiece.) That's all I can figure...anybody see anything I may have missed? Thanks again for all the advice... Jay Spies Asinine Aleworks Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:12:25 +0100 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: tackling oxygen [and more] (another follow up) Thanks for your great responses Steve! > > > I have assumed that this connection as a first approximation to be one > of > > > simple ATP power generation utilizing glycogen and trehalose and the > main > > > reason why old yeast have so long lag times > > > > I used to think the same thing, but it's easy to poke some holes in the > > argument. > > > > Trehalose has clear value as a functional carbohydrate, but trehalose > > does not produce ATP in it's dissimilation ! Trehalose levels rise in > > response to all sorts of cell stress, and it's presence appears to > > stabilize yeast and reduce stress during storage. Glycogen is Hmmm interesting. I don't understand trehalose yet. So would act like emergency stock of spare carbon? for repairs of stress damage? or does it work any other way? I thought it would generate ATP as well though possible less than glycogen? I checked the S.Cerevisae genome database and it seems both trehalose and glycogen are dissimilated into glucose-6-phosphate but that trehalose needs one ATP for that step, while glycogen doens't. Glycolysis yields 2 ATP? but maye I didn't read it as carefully. > > "Lag time" is the time from pitching to the first CO2 release (after the > > wort approaches 1 atm of CO2. Long lag times imply poor fermentation > > progress, and in very healthy yeast at proper pitching levels the > > fermentation > > of glycogen stores alone are sufficient to saturate wort with CO2 - give > or > > take a little. Isn't the biologists definition of the lag time for a cell as the time from pitching to the time the cell is active, and a budding cycle is initiated? I like to make a distinction between the apparent lag (first appearance of CO2 in airlock) and the intrinsic lag, and CO2 production from the yeast. So far I haven't done very much tests to have a clear opnion what can be attributed to saturation times and what are really intrinsic lags. So I am attempting to account for variations in both. The saturation lag should be straightforward to model once you know the production rate, so I am currently trying to focus on understanding the intrinsic lag. Are you suggesting that the intrinsic lag is insignificant compared to the apparent or saturation lag? The idea to model lag (transition from dormant state to active state) is to consider - depletion of glycogen, to power sterol synthesis - sterol synthesis utilizing oxygen & carbohydrates(glycogen or external sugars- whichever is quickest/available) - utilization of external sugars (function of membrane quality) - building membrane quality (function of levels of sterols, UFAs) - transition from dormant to active, correlated to membrane quality - UFA synthesis I was thinkg that building that building the membrane requires a certains amount of carbohydrates, and if the glycogens aren't enough, utilization of externals are the only option. This could explain the slow start. The idea is that the rate of cells entering the active state is proportional to the # dormant cells, wher the rate constant is a function of membrane quality (assumed to be correlated to cell health in general). If sterol synthesis halts or slows, due to any limiting factor like glycogen depletion, oxygen depletion, the intrinsic lag will increase. Referring to you mentioning poking holes in the idea, can you see a major flaw in this idea? If so where? Any idea where trehalose would enter here? that's one of the missing pieces it seems. > > > > I posted a more detailed message on ester production two years ago ... > > http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3729.html > > Also see Andy Walsh's excellent note at: > > http://hbd.org/brewery/library/EstFormAW0696.html Yes, I've seen these posts before, they are both very excellent summaries!! > > > > -Steve Alexander > > > > /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:26:28 -0800 From: Mark Beck <beckmk at whitman.edu> Subject: thermocouples Thermocouples seem to be getting a bad rap here. I use a K-type thermocouple when I brew. Mine is speced with an accuracy of +/- 2 deg. C. Keep in mind though that this is absolute accuracy, not a random error--the readings are very reapeatable. I calibrated mine, and found that it was accurate to within 1 deg. F between freezing and boiling, and that's accurate enough for brewing as far as I'm concerned. I get bigger temperature variations than that at different locations in my mash tun. Mark Walla Walla, WA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:56:30 -0600 From: Michael <grice at binc.net> Subject: PET carboys I notice that Williams Brewing is selling PET (polyethylene terephthalate copolymer, apparently) carboys. Apparently these are "unbreakable" and less permeable to oxygen than the plastic buckets. Anyone know a) how these would compare to glass in terms of oxygen permeability and b) if there are any downsides to using these that I'm not thinking of? Michael Middleton WI Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:10:52 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: politics of hatred & beer. OK - I know I shouldn't bite this troll, but ... Randi Richi posted a supposedly humorous bit last week painting conservatives as real beer people and liberals are limp-wristed quiche eaters. I don't care if it's an Ann Coulter or an Al Franken spouting this junk; without mutual respect for differing ideas civil society is over. The last election hinged on polarizing caricatures of Bush as a moron cowboy and Gore as a stuck-up confabulating liar with no serious examination of their ideas. It would be astonishing if things could get worse - but I expect to be astonished by next election day. I object to the misused terms "liberal" and "conservative". Conservatism is about conserving previous social systems and morals while Jeffersonian liberalism is about maximal personal liberty and minimal government. It's ridiculous to assert that actual conservatives, for example Jerry Falwell and John Ashcroft (of naked statue fame), are "real beer people" while liberals (or Libertarians) like Clint Eastwood, P.J.O'Rourke, Penn&Teller, Frank Zappa, Jesse Ventura and H.L.Mencken are quiche eating wimps. The US Democratic party adheres primarily to socialist ideology, much like the UKs 'Social Democrats'. That's a respectable position, but has nothing to do with liberalism. We'd all be better off sharing a beer and a chat with those of opposing ideas rather aiming unjust personal insults at them. Counter to Randi's assertions, real conservatives never drink alcohol so sharing a beer may be problematic ! -S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:27:13 -0800 (PST) From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> Subject: 5th Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results Results of th 5th Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open are posted. http://www.sagecat.com/psb/psbo5results.htm Return to table of contents
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