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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE:  Scorched a direct fired mash ("Raj B. Apte")
  Re:  Rogue Chocolate Stout Clone (val.dan.morey)
  Extract potential of brewing sugars ("Bill Pierce")
  Carbohydrate Calculations ("National Midnight Star Brewery")
  Beerstone Removal (John Palmer)
  Re: RIMS Ramp Rates, PID Controlled etc (FRASERJ)
  Beersicles ("Lau, William T")
  PID Outputs ("A.J deLange")
  Reverse flow RIMS ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: Chilly HERMS ("Ronald La Borde")
  chest freezers run at 32 degrees--how long is life expectancy? (Paul Sullivan)
  Re: Scorched a direct fired mash (Doug Mosher)
  Belgian ale revisited ("Steve Smith")
  Schwarzbier (Keith Stevenson)
  Re: RIMS temperature control / Flowrate measurement (Kent Fletcher)
  Temperature control ("Patrick Hughes")


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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:47:17 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  Scorched a direct fired mash

Michael writes about scorching his first all-grain
brew.

I did two dozen or so direct fire brews this year
without scorching. With a 40L stainless pot, I could
achieve 1F/min without scorching by throttling back
from full gas power. Two months ago, I got a wort
pump. Now I recirculate by pumping from the bottom of
the grain bed to a little brass manifold on the top
(which I also use for sparging). The result has been
some beautiful mashes, spot on, with no scorching. I
measure temperature both at the fluid outflow and at
the center of the grain bed. I can slew 1C/min now
with my stove on full. RIMS and HERMS may be fine for
others, but this is simple and cheap. Look around for
a used pump--I got mine for $50. 

raj




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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:42:35 -0600
From: val.dan.morey at juno.com
Subject: Re:  Rogue Chocolate Stout Clone

Mark,
 
If you can get your hand on the Sep/Oct 2003 Zymurgy, they have a clone
for Shakespeare Stout and the Chocolate Stout.  As Bob Barrett indicated
in his post, the Chocolate Stout recipe is the same as Shakespeare Stout
except for the addition of 1.5 oz of chocolate extract added in
secondary.  I'd suggest that you can get a chocolate extract/syrup used
to flavor coffee beverages.  Use this in secondary.
 
Cheers,
Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble/


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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:49:03 -0500
From: "Bill Pierce" <BillPierce at aol.com>
Subject: Extract potential of brewing sugars

I have found conflicting references to the extract potential of various
brewing sugars.  Much of the evidence indicates that sucrose has value of
1.0462 but there is far less agreement about corn sugar.  Some references
indicate it is basically the same as for sucrose or slightly lower (several
state that it's 1.045), while others claim that it's 1.037.

Charlie Papazian in "The Homebrewer's Companion" suggests that this is due
to the fact that the glucose molecules in corn sugar are bound to water
molecules that account for 20 percent of the total weight.  If true, this
explains an extract potential that is 20 percent less than sucrose, but I
have found no corroboration of this.

Charlie P. also lists the extract potential of Belgian candi sugar is 1.036,
as do some other references to invert sugar.  Is the reason for this the
same (the sugar is bound to water molecules), or is this value in error?  It
seems odd to me that the extract potential for invert sugar is less than the
monosaccharide components of sucrose (glucose and fructose).

Some clarification would be helpful.

- -- Bill Pierce
Cellar Door Homebrewery
Now located in Burlington, Ontario




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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:13:05 -0500
From: "National Midnight Star Brewery" <nationalmidnightstarbrewery at hotmail.com>
Subject: Carbohydrate Calculations

I am now two weeks into the Atkins diet and everything is fine (except for
no beer!).  I am getting close to working the carbs back in and my homebrew
is at the top of my list.  I have done some searching and with my limited
skills, I have not been able to come across calculations for determining
carbohydrate concentration in homebrew.  Can anyone start me down the right
road or give me some references?

Thanks in advance and everyone have a safe and happy holiday!

William Menzl
Midland,  Michigan
National Midnight Star Brewery
North of Jeff a little....


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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:28:41 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Beerstone Removal

I was talking with Steve and Martin about beerstone removal, and what 
acids to use. Martin asked whether CLR (Calcium Lime Remover) from 
Jelmar worked, and here is what we found out.

CLR is composed primarily of Glycolic (hydroxyacetic) acid, sulfamic and
citric acids, according to the Jelmar website. One of the guys in my 
club
swears by it for beerstone removal.  I have not had enough beerstone to 
need
to use it. | :-}

Checking the ASM Metals Handbooks, I confirmed that sulfamic is 
routinely used
to clean stainless steel and is effective against "calcium deposits". I 
assume that Jelmar is primarily talking about calcium carbonate instead 
of oxalate.
Glycolic and citric are also used for stainless steel chemical 
cleaning. A
web search for milkstone and beerstone cleaners showed that other 
commercial products
primarily contain phosphoric acid, and one contained sulfuric, but that 
is
not one that we would want to use - too hazardous and sulfuric is 
corrosive
under some conditions.
CLR is not corrosive to stainless. It is more effective hot,  but don't 
use
it too hot (170F) because it begins to hydrolyze to sulfuric and becomes
less effective..
FYI,
John

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:16:26 -0500
From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
Subject: Re: RIMS Ramp Rates, PID Controlled etc





Dion responds to my post.....

>>Actually, the PID controller does the same thing, ON/OFF only.  It
>>does not directly cut back on wattage.  There are some PID
>>controllers capable <snip>

Thanks!  This is good information for me, I thought the PID actually
variably controlled heater output.  Bad part is that I have tried to
implement a % controlled algorithm for cycling the power to my elements via
the SSR's and have not found a good way of doing yet.  It really is a
little embarrassing as I am a computer professional working as an
independent consultant!!  Though in my defense, I have not really sat down
and worked through the problem properly.

Does anyone on the HBD have an algorithm for cycling an SSR in a given time
period?

John M. Fraser



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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:44:02 -0500
From: "Lau, William T" <william.lau at astrazeneca.com>
Subject: Beersicles

Dave Larsen" asks of a beersicle in keg -

A couple of years ago two cornies of ale in my garage fridge froze.  I could
figure out why I couldn't get anything out of the tap (duh)!  Anyway, I
brought them into the house and let them thaw at room temp., put them back
on tap and they were fine.

Bill Lau
AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals LP
587 Old Baltimore Pike
Newark, DE 19702
Phone 302-286-4948
Fax     302-286-4076
william.lau at astrazeneca.com





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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:13:36 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: PID Outputs

WRT the discussion of PID controller outputs: Most of them have 
several. The ON/OFF one has been discussed. It is ON (or OFF) depending 
on whether the load is direct (Cooling) or inverse (Heating) with the 
duty cycle (total duration settable by the operator) determining the 
amount of power deliverd. There are also continuous outputs (usually 0 
 - 5V and/or 4-20 current loops). These are signals whose levels are 
proportional (linearly) to the amount of power (4ma = 0%, 20 ma = 100%) 
the controller wants at a given moment. They can be sent to  an SCR 
controller (which usually has the power circuit closed for an integral 
number of half cycles and open for an integral number of half cycles 
thus really implementing proportional control but with resolution of 17 
(US 60 Hz) or 20 mS (most of rest of world - 50 Hz) so that the control 
is "smoother" but can also go to a really continuous control mechanism 
like the actuator on a gas or steam (though steam is usually done fully 
on or off) valve or the control winding on a saturable core reactor (if 
such things still exist). In a cooling application an evaporator bypass 
valve may be controlled for fine control. Note also that these 
controllers are used for applications other than heating/cooling. pH or 
ORP control are examples. In this case the device controlled is a 
chemical dispenser or dispensers.

It's probably worth mentioning once more that PID controllers will not 
control the way you want them to unless they are tuned and proper 
tuning depends on the masses, specific heats, rates of heat loss, 
linearity of output (proportional electric control is very linear, 
operation of a gas valve is not) etc. It is quite likely that the 
tuneset which works fine for the boost from dough-in to protein rest 
may not do so well at controlling the boost from saccharification rest 
to mashout. Modern controllers usually have the capablility to auto 
tune themselves, to store multiple tune sets and even switch between 
tunesets in the course of execution of a program is executed.

A.J.



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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:51:38 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Reverse flow RIMS

A lot of folks concerned about flow rates.  Has anyone tried a reverse flow
RIMS?  That is, pump the return to the bottom of the grain bed and scavenge
from the top.  You could run the thing full bore all day long and not stick
the mash.  When you reach the final rest and only maintenance heat additions
are required and high flow rate isn't an issue, un-reverse the flow to set
the grain bed and sparge as usual.

Anybody tried it?

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego

www.quaff.org/afc2004/AFCHBC.html



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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:52:27 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: Re: Chilly HERMS

>From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>

>Here's what I had in mind:  this is a 3 vessel, 15-20 gallon, single
>tier
>system with 2 pumps.  The heart of the system and the focal point of
>heat
>exchange is a convoluted counterflow chiller (hence my Chilly HERMS
>moniker).  The wort is recirculated through pump #1 (wort pump) and
>then to
>the inner coil of the CFC, and then back to the top of the mashtun.

Jay, that sounds great - your're in luck, just send me your wife's
email address and I promise to send her a great idea for your best
Christmas present ever.

>......The heater in the HLT is
>controlled by a PID control, with the thermocouple placed in the wort
>line
>just aft of the exit of the inner coil of the CFC (where the wort
will
>be
>hottest).

Since this is a wish list, maybe things can be improved. Instead of
the conventional CFC where the exit temp is the hottest, how about
some design of the CFC where the entire exchange interface is evenly
heated. Hmm, what would this look like?  A flat spiral coil inside
another coil with zillions of tiny holes for the heating medium to
spray the entire inner coil evenly, with a third outer coil to hold,
collect, and outflow the heating medium.

Oooh Santa, get busy.

>....The massive heater
>means that the temp rise should be fairly quick (aided by the
constant
>HLT
>recirc and insulation on all lines and tuns).  Once you mash in,
reset
>the
>PID for your desired mash temp and it will (should) keep mash temps
>stable
>without exposing the wort to any water that's but a few degrees over
>mash temps.

Or, how about having the HLT water MUCH hotter than step temperature,
and control the heat exchanger by modulating the flow of heating
medium through it. This way you have eliminated the heating ramp times
for the 'massive' heater. I will discuss this later.

>...The only variable is being able to raise
>the HLT temp fast enough so there's not massive lag going from step
to
>step - hence the Paul Bunyan heater.  (I had initially thought of
>putting
>the thermocouple in the HLT, but then I have no way of directly
>measuring MT
>heat losses.  It's hit or miss, but it should also work once you
>"learn"
>your system with regard to MT heat loss ie - set the HLT to "2
>degrees"
>above the desired mash temp)...but I digress.

Exactly, this is what I mean (see previous comment).

Still wishing, why not use a much smaller vessel to contain and heat
the heating medium. The HLT is a great HLT, but let's ask Santa for a
MHT (Medium Heating Tun). It could be much smaller, say a gallon or
so, just enough to contain the heating device (propane, gas, or
electric). Now you can get rapid heating when desired. Remember you
will modulate the flow to control temperature at the exchanger wort
exit.

>...Electrics/mechanical are a challenge.  The PID activates at LEAST
a
>30-40
>amp SSR (50 amp preferable) which switches through a contactor to
>operate
>the heater to change temps.

We love a challenge, but I think you can eliminate the contactor, the
SSR will do fine without it.

Now, about modulating the heating medium. I have been having great fun
playing with peristaltic pumps. Naturally being curious, I opened one
up to find the motor had an optical sensor at the motor rear shaft.
This was interfaced to the control board which allowed speed
regulation and control.

For some time I have been wondering about the pumps we have been
using, the magnetic drive pumps. I can and have been slowing the speed
by using a cheap fan motor control. This works sort-of, because I find
the setting difficult to adjust, more power, and the motor speeds up
too much, less power and the motor slows down too much. When the wort
gets moving, the motor then speeds up because the inertia is less.

Here's what I am getting at: The magnet already in the pump possibly
could be used to pulse a sensor attached to the outter housing. The
sensor could be a hall effect device, this then connected to the
control board (to be designed).

C. D., I will be checking your web site for the full details soon.
Thanks for a super web site!

>So what do you think?  Workable, or crap?  YOU MAKE THE CALL....

It's '409', better than 'FANTASTIC'!

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:59:14 -0500
From: Paul Sullivan <paulsull at gis.net>
Subject: chest freezers run at 32 degrees--how long is life expectancy? 

Well my Woods chest freezer, bought new 6 years ago, seems like it's on 
it's way out. The level of frost is only half way down the sides, the 
bottom half is not cooling. I spoke to a refrig tech today and he said 
that it's most likely that the metal tubes in the walls are slowly 
rusting. This seems plausible, because running it at 32 or so you can 
eventually see rust starting to form in the inside seams.

This is my third chest freezer in my 11 year brewing career, and 
thinking about it now, none of them has lasted more than 5-6 years. I'm 
guessing that this is because the condensation that rusts the inside 
seams probably rusts the inside gas pipes (although, shouldn't they be 
stainless?--well, probably too expensive, and not necessary if the 
freezer is run way below freezing temps, as most of these (not used for 
lagering) are).

He said he can charge it up, but there is no guarantee how long the 
charge will stay. I'm thinking charging it up again may hasten the gas 
escaping, as the increased pressure may enlarge the cracks in the 
tubes, this from past experience with another freezer which was 
recharged and only lasted a couple of weeks. Right now it still holds 
at 32, but the compressor  is turning on every couple of hours. I've 
marked the ice level inside with a sharpie, and am monitoring to see if 
the level is getting higher, and at what rate,

Anyone else have any experience with this phenomenon? What's the 
solution (besides building a custom walk-in (drool)? Doesn't this suck?

Paul



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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:21:23 -0700
From: Doug Mosher <dhmosher at juno.com>
Subject: Re: Scorched a direct fired mash

A continuation with a question. I have a 8 gal mash/lauter with the false 
bottom 2" off the bottom. I have
done a step using direct heat without scorching. The problem is 
circulation, so lacking a pump for the next
brew I'll try draining off the bottom into a 2 qt pan and recirculate 
manually. Does anyone see any drawback
to this?

thanks

Doug Mosher



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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:35:42 -0700
From: "Steve Smith" <sasmith at in-tch.com>
Subject: Belgian ale revisited

I have spent some time checking the hbd archives (which was helpful), but
wondered if anyone would care to share (via the list or privately) a
favorite partial extract Trappist Ale recipe that captures the character of
a Chimay.  From what I have uncovered, it appears that the best Chimay yeast
to culture from the bottle is that of Chimay's red label beer, Peres
Trappistes.  I have read up on the proper steps for culturing from the
bottle.  However, I would like some feedback about whether you feel it is
important to feed the starter a second time, after the bottle yeast dregs
have fed on the sugars within the sterilized wort of an initial starter
culture (which initial culture I found could take as long as 5 - 7 days to
create a good yeast layer in the starter).

Currently, I am thinking of working from Dave Miller's recipe for Trappist
Ale within his older book, "The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing", but am
open other suggestions.  Also, could you tell me, is the duration of primary
fermentation for Belgian ales  similar to that of other ales (usu. 4 - 7
days), and is it better to have a lengthy secondary fermentation (as usually
benefits other ales)?  Also, what would be the optimum temperature at which
to ferment?  As I understand it, a favorable phenolic character will develop
if you ferment above 70 degrees.  My question is, how high above 70 degrees?
Thanks, and if you just refer me to further study of the archives I will
certainly go back to it.  I was having trouble with the archives and other
sections of hbd.org, whereby every time I checked a specific article, I
could not return to the previous page that contained all of the other search
hits.  Has there been a problem with the website?  Maybe it was that the
couple times this happened I was online when there was enough other eTraffic
to cause a bottleneck.  Thanks!

Steve Smith
sasmith at in-tch.com




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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:23:11 -0500
From: Keith Stevenson <k.stevenson at kagekaze.org>
Subject: Schwarzbier

I've been having a bit of a debate with a local brewer over the amount of
roastiness that is appropriate in a schwarzbier.  Two of our local brewpubs
currently have schwarzbier on tap and both of them taste (to me at least)
like porter recipes brewed with lager techniques.

So my question for the collective is, just how should a schwarzbier taste?
Is Kostritzer the best example to work from?  Other than easing off on the
chocolate malt, what else could be done to fine-tune the recipe into a
better representation of the style?

Cheers!
- --Keith Stevenson--
Louisville, KY


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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:26:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS temperature control / Flowrate measurement 

lou King asked:
> Can anyone answer the question: How does one measure
> flowrate in a RIMS system?  The best answer would be
> something cheap and easy to clean, so it isn't a one
> time test but used for every batch.

Of course you COULD purchase and install a flowmeter,
you would have to use a refractometer and do the math
to get meaningful results, as flowmeters are
calibrated for a SG of 1.000.  Given that the
viscosity of a sugar solution is also temperature
dependent (IIRC), it could get quite complicated to
attain any level of accuracy with a variable area
flowmeter.

But don't forget the KISS principle.  Just run your
wort return into suitably sized pan for some fraction
of a minute, 10 seconds is probably good.  Keep the
vessel and return line at the same relative elevation
so as not to effect flow due to altering the head. 
Transfer the wort to a graduated vessel and multiply
the volme by 6 for volme per minute.

Kent Fletcher
HERMSing in So Cal




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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:48:49 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Temperature control

I am a week behind but I just read the very informative post by Martin
Brungard in HBD #4425 on his experiments controlling mash temps. and the
always controversial thermocouple location. This makes sense to me based on
the fact that the enzymes  are in the wort. Shouldn't this temp. monitoring
placement theory be applied to HERMS as well?

Patrick Hughes




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