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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Reverse flow RIMS ("Gary Smith")
  Scorching Mash (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Extract potential of brewing sugars (Fred Johnson)
  Woods chest freezer (Randy Ricchi)
  Rd: Belgian Ale revisited (Randy Ricchi)
  Sugar Yields ("A.J deLange")
  RE: Schwarzbier ("Urban, Michael J, WCITS")
  RE: Beerstone Removal ("Mary Meredith")
  RIMS ("Sven Pfitt")
  RIMS Ramp Rates, PID Controlled etc ("Todd M. Snyder")
  RE: diets ("Brian Lundeen")
  Re: Chilly HERMS ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Chocolate Stout Flavoring ("Richard S. Sloan")
  Re:  Chilly HERMS (MOREY Dan)
  RE: chest freezers run at 32 degrees--how long is life expectancy? ("Ronald La Borde")
  PID controller in depth (Wade Hutchison)
  Schwarzbier (Wade Hutchison)
  Re: Schwarzbier ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Re:RE: Diets (and exercise) (Pat Babcock)
  Re:RIMS control by PWM (Ken Meyer)
  Chest Freezer Alternatives and Reverse RIMS ("Martin Brungard")
  Homebrew Club Update Request ("Monica Tall")
  Re: Schwarzbier (Keith Stevenson)
  RIMS/HERMS pump speed control ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Throttle magnetic pump ("Patrick Hughes")


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:53:01 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: Reverse flow RIMS

Chad wants to RIMS in reverse

> A lot of folks concerned about flow rates.  Has anyone
> tried a reverse flow RIMS?  That is, pump the return 
> to the bottom of the grain bed and scavenge from the 
> top. You could run the thing full bore all day long and 
> not stick the mash.  When you reach the final rest 
> and only maintenance heat additions are required and 
> high flow rate isn't an issue, un-reverse the flow to 
> set the grain bed and sparge as usual.
> 
> Anybody tried it?

I haven't but the first thing that comes to mind is you'd 
need a filter at the top and at the bottom of the tun. The 
one at the top so that you wouldn't have crushed grains 
being sucked up into or clogging the intake manifold & 
you'd need a false bottom of some kind at the bottom to 
keep the grain from entering the boil kettle when you 
transfer. Also, once you are ready to transfer and drain 
from the bottom, your entire bed would be drawing in 
the opposite direction the flow had established and that might 
cause the compaction as the grains re-orient themselves 
to the draining flow. 

Also, if you weren't worried about the 
grains being sucked into the manifold, they'd accumulate 
between the false bottom and the valve & the first thing 
entering your boil kettle would be a slug of what had been 
trapped grain.

Just the ole devil's advocate in me coming out...


By the way Y'all, raise a brew to me on the 20th, 
I'll be 53, Yeehaw!

:)

Gary

Gary Smith
CQ DX de KA1J
http://musician.dyndns.org
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html

"The only things worthwhile in life are music and cats"
 
 -  Albert Einstein  -




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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:38:19 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Scorching Mash

Hi all
i have been thinking about this for a while.
We use JSP's EasyMasher for a couple of years now with very good
results. When i stir enough during the heating periods, i have no
scorching. But the EasyMasher looks a bit twisted after some use.
I was thinking about a electric stirrer, but this wouldn't work
with the EasyMasher.
So i thought why not use some sort of siphon that i can hang into
my mashtun after all the heating is done. I thougt about a ring
2/3rd of the mashtun diameter that is either slitted at the
lower half or fitted with some ss-screen(like EasyMasher).
What do you think about it?
If you are interested in the idea, but don't get the picture,
(sorry but my english lacks some details) send me a private
email and i send you a skecht of it.

Thomas



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:47:02 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: Extract potential of brewing sugars 

Bill Pierce asks what the correct values are for the potential extract 
of corn sugar and Belgian candi sugar.

It is a simple matter of measuring the values yourself for the sugar 
you have. Accurately weigh out some amount of the sugar and place it 
into solution in some type of accurate volumetric container, noting the 
total volume of the solution. Then measure the gravity of the solution 
with a hydrometer.

Regardless of the reason for differences in the published values, 
you'll know what the value is for YOUR sugar.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:13:34 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Woods chest freezer

Paul,

I also have a Woods chest freezer which is about 6 years old. After only
a year or two the seams were rusting so I put a wire wheel on my drill
and took off all the rust, then treated all the bare metal with naval
jelly, then caulked all the seams and painted. That lasted 3 or 4 years.
Just recently I had to do it over again, but this time I used spray-on
"rust converter" on all the bare metal after using the wire wheel to
remove the old caulking and surface rust. I then used Bondo instead of
caulking. Sanded down the Bondo and spray-painted.

I usually keep my freezer at around 46 to 48 degrees (serving temp), so
I don't get frost, I get moisture. I'm at work so I can't check right
now, but it seems to me that the moisture has always formed at the top
of the walls, say the top third or so. I don't think I've ever seen it
form lower down (other than the streams that run down the side).



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:39:27 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Rd: Belgian Ale revisited

Steve,
I cultured the dregs from a bottle of Chimay Cinq Cents (white cap)
quite a few years ago with great success in a tripel, but after that I
had bought several bottle's of Chimay white and red cap that were
clearly infected (gushers, harsh flavor), so I've been reluctant to use
their yeast anymore. There are so many belgian yeast strains available
through Wyeast and White Labs, I'd suggest you go with one of those. Of
course, if you live somewhere that that is not an option, then go with
the Chimay yeast IF the beer tastes okay. My guess is the same yeast is
used in all three of the Chimay beers.

You didn't mention which style of belgian ale you are going to brew, but
they are all fairly big beers so I'd recommend a quart sized starter
rather than a pint. Most belgian ale yeasts, other than the witbier
yeasts, are strong fermenters.

You ask about the duration of primary fermentation. I'd just let it go
until it is done fermenting and forget about secondary unless the yeast
is a very poor flocculator, in which case you might want to secondary
for awhile to let much of the yeast settle out.. Otherwise, secondary
can happen in the bottle. It may help to add a little fresh yeast (use
the same strain) at bottling to help with carbonation.

As far as fermentation temperature, you're better off keeping the temp
around 68-70F rather than warmer. While you may get a really aromatic
beer fermenting warmer, you can also get more fusel alcohols, which
leave the beer with a "hot" alcohol taste, and also seem to hamper head
retention. The only yeasts I deliberately ferment in the mid to upper
70's are some witbier strains that I have found become very sluggish at
cooler temps. For some reason these strains do not produce the hot
fusels the way other belgian strains do.




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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:52:59 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Sugar Yields

Extract potential of brewing sugars is legislated (or at least 
standardized) through the Plato tables which are published by the ASBC 
and EBC. These state (among other things) that if you add 11.482 grams 
(.02531 pound) of sugar to 88.518 grams of water you will obtain 100 
grams of solution with specific gravity (apparant, 20/20) 1.04620. This 
implies that the  volume of this solution will be 95.756 cc (at 20C) 
which is .02530 gallon. Thus 1 pound of sucrose in one gallon of 
solution gives a specific gravity very close to 1.04620.

The Plato tables were done for pure sucrose probably because it is not 
hygroscopic and is easy to purify. If you buy an assortment of ACS 
grade sugars from a lab supply source, make up solutions of various 
strengths (allowing for the water of hydration stated on the label e.g. 
glucose should have none, maltose 1 H2O per molecule) and measure the 
specific gravity you will be amazed at how close to the Plato tables 
the results are. This is even true for low molecular weight starch (to 
the extent that it is soluble).

That said, we all know what happens if you open a bag of dry malt 
extract on a humid summer afternoon and let it sit. Within minutes you 
have a sticky mess from the water it takes up from the air. Brown 
sugars contain not only sucrose but molasses (aside - try making your 
own brown sugar from molasses and white table sugar - it's wonderful). 
They probably will not follow the Plato table that closely. It is such 
things (including water of hydration) that are responsible for the 
variations in extract potentials. The only way to be sure of what you 
are getting is to make a 10P solution (10 grams of sugar in 100 grams 
of solution) and check the specific gravity. If it's less than 1.040 
you don't have pure sugar.

A.J.



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:10:37 -0500
From: "Urban, Michael J, WCITS" <mjurban at att.com>
Subject: RE: Schwarzbier

Keith Stevenson asks about Schwarzbier:

>I've been having a bit of a debate with a local brewer over the amount of
>roastiness that is appropriate in a schwarzbier.  Two of our local brewpubs
>currently have schwarzbier on tap and both of them taste (to me at least)
>like porter recipes brewed with lager techniques.

>So my question for the collective is, just how should a schwarzbier taste?
>Is Kostritzer the best example to work from?  Other than easing off on the
>chocolate malt, what else could be done to fine-tune the recipe into a
>better representation of the style?

We discussed this in beer school (a BJCP exam prep course I just
completed), and the point was made that German roasted malt is less
bitter than the English or American counterparts, and is also
frequently used de-husked to get the strong color contribution with
somewhat less of the harsh bitterness.  I have seen the Weyermann
Carafa II and Carafa III available dehusked.

The Kostritzer is the only example I've tried, but it was cited in
beer school as the classic example.  It's currently available on tap
at Old Germany in Orlando, and it's very fine.  I ordered a large, and
they brought me a mug as big as my lauter tun.

Michael Urban
Winter Springs, FL
[952.4, 170.5]



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:15:15 -0500
From: "Mary Meredith" <mmeredith at carboyscrubber.com>
Subject: RE: Beerstone Removal

Our Keg Turbo Scrubbers help to remove beerstone without scratching the
stainless steel.  The speed of the drill helps to get the job done fast and
works well.  You can use it with our without the chemicals.  These things
have made it possible for other industries to move away from acids to clean
their containers as well.  We guarantee our products and your satisfaction.
Visit our site at www.turboscrub.com for more information.

Mary Meredith
A&M Manufacturing Co.




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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:23:03 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RIMS

My biggest problem when I was usnig a RIMS system was that I brew mostly in 
the cooler part of the year, including winter.

I had appreciable heat loss through the plumbing during colder brew 
sessions. IN freezing weather it is enough to make RIMS ineffective.

I mostly have 1/2" copper pipe for plumbing, so the available straight 
sections of foam insulation for copper water pipe dont' fit well.

Has anyone addressedt his with insulation? What kind?

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:36:01 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: RIMS Ramp Rates, PID Controlled etc

Hi John,

You wrote:<Does anyone on the HBD have an algorithm for cycling an SSR in a
given time
period?>

I'll probably get super flamed for bastardizing a PI algorithm so badly, but
here's my simplified take on it.  Please keep in mind that I haven't taken a
process control class in 5 years, and I'm not going to open the textbook for
this.

First you have to choose a period of time that you want the SSR to cycle on
and off.  Let's choose 1 second for a cycle length just for starters.  If
your control algorithm calls for minimum heat, it will stay on 0 seconds.
If it calls for max heat, it will stay on for 1.0 seconds.  50% heat will
call for 0.5 seconds on, 0.5 s off.

To make a proportional (P) duty cycle, set a range of temperature across
which you want the algorithm to operate, let's say you want a 10F range,
this is the proportional band.  The setpoint is right in the center.  If the
temperature is more than 5F below the setpoint, the duty cycle is 100%.  If
it's 5F above the setpoint, the duty cycle is 0%.  In between it is
proportional:

Duty cycle = ((setpoint - measured temperature)+5)/10  : this is a fraction
from 0.00 to 1.00

Notice that as the P band (the 10 above) approaches zero you get on/off
control.

So then you need to write a program that turns on the SSR, waits until (duty
cycle * the cycle length) seconds have passed, then turns off the SSR and
waits until the next cycle.

To add integral (I) control, multiply (setpoint - measured temperature) by a
very small 'I' term every cycle and add it to the duty cycle as a cumulative
term, ie add the effect of I to the previous effects of I every time it's
recalculated.

I'll  summarize it in pseudo - Basic:

I = 0.001  (very small, increase to increase I effect)
PBand = 10  (degrees F, decrease to increase P effect)
CycleLength = 1 (seconds, depends on how often you want your SSR going
on/off)
IEffect = 0  (Initial effect of I control, start at zero)

100
T0 = TIMER
Turn 'on' SSR
PEffect =  ((setpoint - measured temperature) + (0.5 * PBand)) / PBand
IEffect = IEffect + (setpoint - measured temperature) * I
TimeOn = (PEffect + IEffect)*CycleLength
Wait until time = T0 + TimeOn
Turn 'off' SSR
Wait until Time = T0 + CycleLength
GOTO 100

So that's my take on it, I'm sure there are better programmers and people
that know control a lot better than I do out there that will post back to
this and refine it.  But that's the jist of what I would use for PI control.

Maybe someone could add the D component?

Good luck,
Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY




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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:30:33 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: diets

William Menzl writes:
> 
> I am now two weeks into the Atkins diet and everything is 
> fine (except for no beer!).  I am getting close to working 
> the carbs back in and my homebrew is at the top of my list.  

Ah, what the heck, what's Xmas without a little flame war to drive away
the cold, winter chill... ;-)

I'm now 3 years into my non-diet and everything is fine. I lost 40
pounds and am keeping it off. My weight, blood pressure and cholesterol
readings have dropped to acceptably healthy levels. I drink beer, wine,
spirits, I eat anything and everything (well, except lima beans,
echhh!), and have never eliminated anything from my diet, although I try
to approach things like greasy burgers, fried chicken and yes, alcohol
in moderation. This is an especially bad time of year we are heading
into. Last year, I weighed myself before and after the Xmas/New Year's
celebration period, which for me runs about 3 weeks. I lost half a pound
in that period.

I'm sure you know what I'm going to say next, but it needs to be said.
This was all accomplished through exercise. For me anyway, it doesn't
really take that much. 10K run/walk on the treadmill three times a week.
The whole session including warmups, cool downs and showering is a
paltry 2 hour time commitment. That's 6 hours a week out of 168, or 3.6%
of my life. And if you want to get picky about not including sleep, less
than 5% of my waking life. Of course, everyone is different, YMMV.

The point is, don't look for easy answers. Weight loss is only part of
the equation. You need cardio-vascular fitness to be healthy, and no
diet restrictions are going to give you that. Get out there and work up
a sweat. You'll feel energized, and you can still eat that plate of lamb
chops or rib eye, but now you'll be able to accompany it with a nice
risotto Milanese, and a glass or three of Shiraz or Porter. I mean,
really, why would a beer lover even consider a low-carb diet as a
solution?

Anyway, best of the season to all of you, as well.

Cheers
Brian, opinionated as always in Winnipeg


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:39:56 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Chilly HERMS

At 12:54 AM 12/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Since this is a wish list, maybe things can be improved. Instead of
>the conventional CFC where the exit temp is the hottest, how about
>some design of the CFC where the entire exchange interface is evenly
>heated. Hmm, what would this look like?  A flat spiral coil inside
>another coil with zillions of tiny holes for the heating medium to
>spray the entire inner coil evenly, with a third outer coil to hold,
>collect, and outflow the heating medium.


Actually, wouldn't this look a whole lot like the immersion heater in a 
traditional HERMS?  Doing so seems like it would eliminate the main reason 
for using a counterflow system, which is that you maximize the efficiency 
of your heat transfer my maximizing your delta-T along the coil.

cheers,
mike
Monterey, CA




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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:45:26 -0800
From: "Richard S. Sloan" <rssloan at household.com>
Subject: Chocolate Stout Flavoring

This site sells concentrated flavor extracts including a few chocolate
varieties. Someone once told me that it was the same stuff Rogue used but I
dont know how true that is.
http://www.wildroots.com/default.php/cPath/269_273

Richard Sloan
brewing in San Diego, CA
Mild w/rye in the fermentor
Dunkleweizen on deck for this weekend.




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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:36:17 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Re:  Chilly HERMS

I too have been consider using a counter flow chiller to maintain mash
temperatures.  My concept is slightly different however.  My heat source
would be the HLT kept at boiling.  I would use the boiling water for step
infusions to achieve rapid rest changes.  To maintain mash temperature, flow
rate of the hot water passing through the heat exchanger would be throttled.
By changing the flow rate, you change the effectivity of the heat exchanger.
Once the final mash step is reached the HLT would be allowed to drop to
170-180F for sparging.

This concept doesn't require temperature control of the HLT, and can be
setup to work easily with propane.  The control loop on the hot water
circuit could easily be run on 120V service.  It would require two pumps,
but I don't consider this a major issue.

So what do you think?

Cheers,

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi





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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:03:10 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: chest freezers run at 32 degrees--how long is life expectancy?

>From: Paul Sullivan <paulsull at gis.net>
>
>This is my third chest freezer in my 11 year brewing
>career, and
>thinking about it now, none of them has lasted more
>than 5-6 years. I'm
>
>Anyone else have any experience with this phenomenon?
>What's the
>solution (besides building a custom walk-in (drool)?
>Doesn't this suck?
>
>Paul

Yes, I have a Kenmore freezer, about 5 years old and it just kicked
the bucket.

Funny, I also have a Kenmore freezer about 35 years old and given to
me by my mother.

No, not funny after all. One is crap the other is quality. What's the
difference? Thirty years of bean counters playing engineer.

Well Kenmore, thanks for nothing. Jan 2, 2004 I'm ordering a Kegerator
from Beer, Beer, and more Beer.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:23:35 -0500
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: PID controller in depth

Depending on the PID controller you're using you could be
getting either a continuous output (0-10 Volts or 4-20 ma)
or a "pulse width modulate" output.  What Dion is talking about
is this second type, where the ratio between on and off is
varied (the duty cycle) to give you between 0 and 100 percent
of the power available.   This can be done via a relay (SSR) that
switches the element on and off on a couple-of-seconds cycle
(1 second on, 1 second off type of thing) or via a SCR or silicon
controlled rectifier, that actually works on a line
frequency duty cycle - it switches the power on and off 60 times
a second, which to the heating element looks like a continuous
change in the power applied.
I use a power controller similar to
http://www.vespo.com/for%20upload%20product%20page
/productpagenew.htm (recombine for proper link)
I have a PAC 10 regulator, which is apparently out of production.
This type of controller uses the continuous output of the
PID controller to vary the power delivered to the heating
element.

As far as algorithms, check out information on pulse
width modulation for ways to implement it in software.

Hope this helps,
         -----wade hutchison
         597.6 Klicks, 101.5 deg. Rennerian
         Milton, PA 17847

At 12:16 AM 12/19/2003, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:16:26 -0500
>From: FRASERJ at Nationwide.com
>Subject: Re: RIMS Ramp Rates, PID Controlled etc
>
>Dion responds to my post.....
>
> >>Actually, the PID controller does the same thing, ON/OFF only.  It
> >>does not directly cut back on wattage.  There are some PID
> >>controllers capable <snip>
>
>Thanks!  This is good information for me, I thought the PID actually
>variably controlled heater output.  Bad part is that I have tried to
>implement a % controlled algorithm for cycling the power to my elements via
>the SSR's and have not found a good way of doing yet.  It really is a
>little embarrassing as I am a computer professional working as an
>independent consultant!!  Though in my defense, I have not really sat down
>and worked through the problem properly.
>
>Does anyone on the HBD have an algorithm for cycling an SSR in a given time
>period?
>
>John M. Fraser



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:28:58 -0500
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: Schwarzbier 

Keith,
Use what the German breweries use - Carafa malt (a roasted,
de-husked malt) that will contribute the color to the beer without
the roasty flavors you get from chocolate or patent malts.
I just finished a keg off a great schwarzbier that I made with
lager and carafa malts.
         -----wade hutchison
         597.6 Klicks, 101.5 deg. Rennerian
         Milton, PA 17847

At 12:16 AM 12/19/2003, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:23:11 -0500
>From: Keith Stevenson <k.stevenson at kagekaze.org>
>Subject: Schwarzbier
>
>I've been having a bit of a debate with a local brewer over the amount of
>roastiness that is appropriate in a schwarzbier.  Two of our local brewpubs
>currently have schwarzbier on tap and both of them taste (to me at least)
>like porter recipes brewed with lager techniques.
>
>So my question for the collective is, just how should a schwarzbier taste?
>Is Kostritzer the best example to work from?  Other than easing off on the
>chocolate malt, what else could be done to fine-tune the recipe into a
>better representation of the style?
>
>Cheers!
>- --Keith Stevenson--
>Louisville, KY

          



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:05:10 -0800
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Schwarzbier


Keith Stevenson was asking about Schwarzbiers.  I can't claim to have  first 
hand knowledge of how Kostrizer is brewed, but the pre-crushed all grain 
"kit" from Paddock Wood (no affiliation, just a happy customer) uses a 
special de-husked Carafa 3 to get the deep colour without the heavy roasty 
husk flavours.   IIRC, it uses a pils base, munich and the de-husked Carafa 
3.

If there is interest, I will report after brewing it.


Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:10:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re:RE: Diets (and exercise)


On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 Brian wrote:

> The point is, don't look for easy answers. Weight loss is only part of
> the equation. You need cardio-vascular fitness to be healthy, and no

Though I agree with Brian regarding exercise and c-v fitness, I
am now a True Believer [tm] that cutting back on the carbs is an
"easy way" to shuck a big ol' passel of poundage for most of us.
30# in two months is substantial loss with no change in my
exercise patterns, and I've been able to enjoy some carbo-rich
foods as an occasional treat rather than as a staple. (And I
still enjoy my beer). Point is that all the processed crap we
ingest these days are more of a problem than most other thangs.
And it was, frankly, easy.

And, though c-v fitness is important to protecting your health,
so is plain old weight loss. Reducing weight has been shown to
lessen the strain on the ol' c-v system, as well as to reduce
your chances for becoming diabetic - it reduces the risk for
myriad other maladies as well. And, as an added bonus, it makes
you feel a whole lot better about yourself. Hell! I was able to
re-introduce myself to my toes and a certain other appendage
whom I had been sheltering from rain with my big ol' gut. It's
good to be whole again!

My $0.02 US...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie






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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:36:21 -0600
From: Ken Meyer <keno5 at wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re:RIMS control by PWM

The best way to control the heat output of an electrically heated RIMS 
is to use a pulse width modulated (PWM) heating element.  In a PWM 
system there is a set time base and the output is turned on for a 
percent of that time base from 0% full off to 100% full on.  In my 
system I have two signals applied to an operational amplifier. A 
sawtooth wave which represents the time base is applied to the negative 
input and an error signal is applied to the positive input.  whenever 
the error signal is higher than the sawtooth the output goes high.  As 
the error increases ( the target temp is higher than the actual temp) 
less of the sawtooth wave is higher than the error signal and the output 
is high for a larger portion of the time base.  The output is applied to 
the input of a solid state relay to control the power applied to the 
heating element.  This allows the average power output of the heater to 
be adjusted from full off to full on.
A software system would have two timing loops the time base and the 
pulse width.  When the time base loop starts it will reset and start the 
pulse width loop.  The pulse width loop will time for a period based on 
the difference between the target and the actual value or the error 
produced by a pid algorithm.  The higher the error the longer the pulse 
width loop will stay true and if the error is zero the pulse width loop 
will never be true.  The true output of the pulse width loop is used to 
control the solid state relay and the heating element.
In this application I use a period of one or two seconds.  This is short 
enough to make the heating act like a continuously variable power level 
and long enough to avoid response problems with the solid state relay.  
Another important variable in this setup is the amount of error at which 
the heating element is on all the time this will be the P in PID which 
is all my system uses. I have it set to five degree F. I use a two prob 
system the error is to the temperature of the wort coming out of the 
mash tun and I also have a over temperature probe that limits the 
maximum temperature of the wort coming out of the heating chamber.
A solid state relay is a must for this control strategy because a 
mechanical relay would have a much slower response and would also soon 
wear out from the constant cycling.

Ken



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:03:50 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Chest Freezer Alternatives and Reverse RIMS

Chest freezers have been a favorite for use as fermenting chambers and beer 
coolers.  I had not heard of problems with freezer rusting, but I suppose 
that running a chest freezer in a manner for which it was not designed, 
could produce problems.  There are alternatives to using a chest freezer.  
One alternative uses an auxilary fermentation chamber that is ducted to a 
refrigerator's freezer compartment.  I can thank fellow HBD'er, Steve Jones 
for posting a good web summary of the system he created.  Its shown at the 
following link:

http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/members/sj.html

You'll need to select the fermenter chamber drop down box to get to the 
actual web page.

I've done the same thing using a top-freezer model refrigerator.  My 
fermenter chamber is about the same size as Steve's, but I've elevated the 
chamber so that I could drain directly from my conical into a corny.  I've 
done a few other things differently, but the function is the same.  The 
ducting for my unit is 4-inch ID flexible HVAC ducting.  The ducts penetrate 
the top of both the freezer and fermenter compartments.  A 4-inch fan is 
just slipped inside one of the ducts.  The fan is controlled with one of 
those Johnson A419 temperature controllers.  Running the ducts through the 
tops of the compartments prevent any thermo-syphoning, as Steve experienced. 
  Most freezer compartments of modern refrigerators have a fan-controlled 
evaporator unit at the back of the freezer, so there is USUALLY no coils to 
hit when you saw through the freezer walls.  Anyone contemplating this kind 
of modification should figure out if the freezing coils are in the freezer 
walls before cutting.  Of course, the refrigerator is somewhat compromised 
after sawing holes in it, so think twice, cut once!

This fermenter chamber has proven to be a jewel of a system.  My 
refrigerator is full of beer and is set to serving temperature.  The freezer 
is still fully functional, providing ice and extra freezer space for SWMBO.  
The fermenter chamber provides space for my 12 gal conical and 2 cornys with 
the ability to provide ale to lagering temperatures.  Sure, this took more 
work than running out and buying an extra frig or freezer, but its very 
useful.

Chad asked about a reverse flow RIMS to help prevent grain compaction during 
high recirculation rates.  I have conducted an experiment using a reverse 
flow RIMS (flow going from bottom to top of grist) and found it didn't help. 
  I subsequently thought about it a little and used my engineering training 
to calculate that the upflow provides relatively little relief from the 
compaction problem.  The weight of the grain is a very small component in 
the forces involved in this hydraulic system.  Please do a search for 
brungard and reverse rims on the HBD search engine to find a more complete 
explanation on the physics of this.

Patrick asked about thermocouple location for a HERMS.  I think that the 
thermocouple should be located as close as possible to whatever heat source 
is used.  Whether its an electric element, steam, heat exchanger, or bottom 
fire, the sensor needs to be close to the heat source to avoid overheating 
the wort.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:32:42 -0700
From: "Monica Tall" <Monica at aob.org>
Subject: Homebrew Club Update Request

Hello!
Are you a member of a homebrew club?

The American Homebrewers Association, a division of the Association of
Brewers, wants to provide the most current homebrew-club information to those
passionate homebrewers. 

We're calling on you to help keep our online club locator up-to-date. Club
listings are quickly accessed from anywhere on the Association of Brewers
website www.beertown.org by going to our locator menu on the right side of
any page. 

STEP 1
Please check out your club's listing on www.beertown.org. Homebrew clubs are
listed by state and arranged alphabetically by city. 
Note: Many club records were eliminated when the new locator went up a few
months ago in our effort to clean out old information.

STEP 2
Make any corrections to listed clubs via the online form. 
Note: If your club is not listed, use the online form to add it! 

STEP 3
If you find clubs that are not in existence, please use the update form to
delete them from our records. 

Updates are not automatic. So be sure to allow a few days for us to update
our records. 

Update a club today.  Thanks for your help!

Cheers,
Monica Tall
Association of Brewers   
Phone: +1.303.447.0816 x 108 / 888.822.6273    
www.beertown.org 


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:23:09 -0500
From: Keith Stevenson <k.stevenson at kagekaze.org>
Subject: Re: Schwarzbier

Thanks for all the feedback!  Everyone seems united in their recommendation of
dehusked Carafa III as the color malt as opposed to the chocolate malt I've
been accusing my brewer friend of using.

Now for a few practical questions since I know he's going to challenge me to
come up with a better recipe!

It sounds like the base grain bill should be mostly pilsner malt.  I'd probably
add some Munich malt for character.  What percent of the grist should the
Carafa be?  Am I missing anything?

Also, I've never seen Carafa in my LHBS.  Would a cold water extraction of
black malt successfully tone down the roastiness or am I going to need to
break down and locate the real thing?

Thanks to all who've responded!

- --Keith Stevenson--
Louisville, KY


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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:34:00
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: RIMS/HERMS pump speed control

Ron La Borde posted that fan controllers are not ideal for controling the
speed of magnetic drive pumps and suggested:

>Here's what I am getting at: The magnet already in the pump possibly
>could be used to pulse a sensor attached to the outter housing. The
>sensor could be a hall effect device, this then connected to the
>control board (to be designed).
>C. D., I will be checking your web site for the full details soon.

Great idea Ron!  Rather than merely ensuring a constant pump speed, why not
a controller which dynamically modulates the pump motor speed so as to
maximize the flow while at the same time preventing a stuck mash?  I'm
confident that the WRIMS's fuzzy logic controller can be modified to handle
this rather trival task.  Maybe also a lower-tech alternative- a hacked
automotive cruise control.  Something should be on the site on April 1,
2004. ;-)

Seriously, the dialectic on the PID/RIMS/HERMS thread has been great.  

c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:36:44 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Throttle magnetic pump

Brendan Oldham in HBD 4427 asks about applying back pressure to a march
pump. These pumps are designed to handle this pressure and  you can
[should ]start your pump with the output valve completely closed , then
opening gradually until you reach the desired flow rate.

Patrick Hughes




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