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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Glycoprotein in beer foam ("Fredrik")
  tannins &  line-biter strikes. ("-S")
  re: making melanoidin ("-S")
  A convert! ("Gary Smith")
  AN end to the end problem (Pat Babcock)
  Re: How to make Melanoidin Malt (Wes Smith)
  Link of the week - Dec 27, 2003 Wassail (Bob Devine)
  switching the neutral ("Justin Wright")
  Pitching yeast ("Patrick Hughes")
  toasted oak barrel (Marc Sedam)


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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:12:31 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Glycoprotein in beer foam

Hello,

Hopefully everyone recovered from the xmas delirium :)

I've been trying to find methods to understand and improve the head.

Fix says in his book "Principles of brewing science" that glycoproteins form
at 70-72 C during the mash. Somehow I don't understand this. I've seen from
standard biochemistry texts that the formation of glycoproteins - in
general - is a fairly complex process that takes place inside the cells and
certainly doesn't happen sponatenously, outside cells? Therefore I wonder if
Fix way of putting it is correct? If it is, how come these glycoprotein form
so easily in the mash? Are they rare special cases?

I suspect that it's more a matter of extracting existing glycoproteins from
the malt that has been formed inside the barley cells long time ago, and
extracting it at this high temp makes sure the mash enzymes deactivate and
doesn't break the existing glycoproteins down too much.

Can someone confirm this? alternatively explain how come they form so easliy
in the mash?

Lastly, which mash enzymes are mainly responsible for desctruction of
glycoproteins? Is it the protein degrading enzymes or also the starch
degrading ones?

Suppose I manage to make the ultimate glycprotein extract from barley,
without breaking it down, I heat it to denature all enzymes. Then I add
alpha and possibly beta amylase, would this by any chance break down some of
the sugar bonds in the glycoproteins? I want highest possible
glycoproteinyield but at the same time I don't want any free unconverted
starches in the beer.

Any other ideas that can bring some light onto the topic of glycoprotein?

 /Fredrik


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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:22:25 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: tannins &  line-biter strikes.

Previous post should have read ....

>The other
*end of the phenolic world are the simple phenolic acids and these are at or
>below flavor threshold in beer, but may even contribute minor positive
>flavor characteristics - except when carboxylated into off-flavored smokey,
>medicinal, clovey off-flavored compounds.

The "$end" line-biter strikes again !

 -Steve




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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:08:55 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: making melanoidin

Stuart G asks,

>Anyone got (specific) info on how Melanoidin Malt is made and how it
>might be done at home? What malt should I start with - Pils, Vienna,
>Munich...?

Making real melanoidin or brumalt will probably require that you start with
barley and go thru the entire malting process.

Kunze describes that barley is processed as for Munich malt.  48% water
content is used (a bit higher than most).  In the last 36 hours the malting
temp is brought up to 40-50C.  Traditionally this is done by stacking the
malt deeply and covering it with a tarp.  This also reduces the O2 available
and increases the CO2 which stalls respiration and  kills the seedling, but
the enzymes survive.  This causes a lot of sugar and amino acid products to
form.  The drying/kilning includes a limited stewing step, similar to that
used to form crystal malt. A relativly low 80-90C kiln temp is used for 3-4
hours to produce 30-40EBC melanoidin.  Melanoidin will self-convert.

If I was going to *try* making fake melanoidin I'd start w/ pils malt, and
let it absorb ~30-40% of it's dry weight in water.  Then I'd store the damp
malt in a sealed plastic around 110F for around 36 hours.    I fear that
this will encourage a lot of bacteria and fungi and may fail with a
spectacular stench.  If so you could try pre-rinsing the pils malt with some
limed water (this will kill some surface micro-orgs) then rinse the lime
free.  Alkaline rinses are used in commercial malting.  This *might*
replicate the starch-protein breakdown somewhat.

You can probably make guesses at stewing, drying  kilning as well as I can.
I think any "stewing" (wet heating) step must be very limited since enzymes
survive and melanoidin is nothing like crystal.

Melanoidin is similar to Munich malt, but moreso.   Weaker enzymatically,
but more aroma and flavors.   Great stuff IMO.

 -S




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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:19:25 -0600
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at ameritech.net>
Subject: A convert!

It was a Christmas party & I brought my 3 gal corny with 1 
gal of my recent wheat with me (the corny had 12 pounds 
of pressure so I didn't need to bring co2).

One of the women there came up to me & asked how I 
made it & I gave the one minute answer. She said it was 
the first beer she had had in her entire life that she liked. 
She wanted to know where she could buy one like it & 
I had to say nowhere but to try micro-brews & she said 
she had but she liked this one & said "It tastes like desert".

I invited her & her hubby to come over & I'd show them 
how it was done. She said she'd like to do that & that 
he liked the beer as much as she did.

Homebrew wins again!!!

Heh, another pair of homebrewers on their way...

Gary

Gary Smith
CQ DX de KA1J
http://musician.dyndns.org
http://musician.dyndns.org/homebrew.html

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not 
bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.

 - Mark Twain -




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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:38:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: AN end to the end problem

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

As a Christmas present to the posters who have been struck by
it, there is now one loose end tied: I dug into the heart of the
HBD and have found and (hopefully) fixed the problems with lines
beginning with "end".

end starts this line, as a demonstration of this fix.

Sorry it took so long to track down - my apologies to those
whose posts looked a bit goofy due to it. 

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:45:37 +1100
From: Wes Smith <wsmith at rslcom.net.au>
Subject: Re: How to make Melanoidin Malt

Stuart from Tasmania wants to try home malting Melaniodin malt. First 
question Stuart - have you already tried malting barley? Was it successful? 
Melanoidin is a difficult and process intensive malt to produce which is 
why so few maltsters outside of Germany offer the product. You will need to 
be very comfortable with your malting process to be able to get the 
necessary control to get the melanoidins to develop. Actually most malts 
have some melanoidins - these are the colour and flavour agents that give 
malts their individual characteristics. Melanoidin malt takes this flavour 
and colour development several stages further. Melanoidin malt still has 
some levels of active distase and will convert itself, albeit slowly. 
Colours vary considerably - the Hoepfner brand we stock is usually around 
40 EBC (specs online at www.maltcraft.com), Gambrinus "Honey Malt" is 50 
EBC and Weyermann is darker again at 70 to 80 EBC.

  A bit of background info: Melanoidin malt or Brumalt as the Germans have 
traditionally called it, is like a "super Munich" - think "Munich on 
steroids" with pronounced malty aromas, flavours and a reddish colour. It 
is produced from a high protein "green malt" with a moisture content 
approaching 50% and is very well modified - ie the acrospire will need to 
be grown out to at least 100%. In the latter stages of germination, 
ventilation to the malting box is turned off allowing the buildup of CO2. 
This causes two things - (1) germination is terminated, and (2) the 
temperature of the malt rises. While the actual germination process is no 
longer occurring, the enzymes are still active producing a range of simple 
sugars and amino acids. These are the building blocks of the Maillard 
effect which will later produce the melanoidins in abundance.

The next stage is kilning off the still moist malt. Drying will be longer 
than for normal malt and some "stewing" of the grains will occur in the 60 
to 65C range. Final curing will typically be in the mid 90C range although 
the darker colours will probably require 100 to 105C.

This is obviously a VERY simplistic overview of one of the more complex 
malting processes - however if you still want to proceed, contact me off 
line and I can give you some more detailed guidance. If you have access to 
"Technology Brewing & Malting" by Kunze, that would be a good start. While 
there isn't much detailed about Brumalt, he does give a lot of good 
information on Munich malt production. You could also try re-steeping 
munich to 40% moisture and let it "stew" off at 70C or so before 
re-kilning, however I doubt you would get much more melanoidin development.

Having recently researched this particular malt as part of our own product 
development program, I can tell you that there is very little written about 
the process, and what is available is mostly proprietary and/or under 
copyright. But if you know how to make a munich malt, you are already well 
on the way.

Wes.



>G'day
>
>Anyone got (specific) info on how Melanoidin Malt is made and how it
>might be done at home? What malt should I start with - Pils, Vienna,
>Munich...?
>
>Cheers
>Stuart Grant
>Hobart, Tasmania, Australia




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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:39:41 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Link of the week - Dec 27, 2003 Wassail

First some trivia: the salutation "wassail" comes from the Old Norse 
toast "ves  heill" ("be well").  Over the centuries, the term changed 
from a toast to the name of a drink often served at holiday time.

This week's recipe is for a warmed, spiced beer (I haven't tried it but 
it looks tasty)
http://www.sallys-place.com/beverages/beer/wassailing.htm

Bob Devine



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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:46:06 +1030
From: "Justin Wright" <justin at tracesofnut.com>
Subject: switching the neutral

Hi All,

Just a comment on Kent Fletcher's comments below..

> As a matter of fact, it's better NOT to switch
> the neutral, as there's one less thing (or actually
> two: the two extra contacts) to fail.

What would happen if your household powerpoints had been accidentally
wired the wrong way?  

The switch would then be cutting the neutral only, leaving the whole
circuit connected to the live.  If there was a short to the case, then
the results could be nasty...

Happy new year to all!!


Regards

Justin Wright
Adelaide, Australia.







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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:37:09 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Pitching yeast

I decided to start making extract beers again , and using dried yeast to
simplify and speed up the process so I could brew more often. While trying
to adapt back to extract brewing from all grain I decided to use my HERMS
coil as an immersion chiller. It easily and quickly reduced the wort temp to
about 85 F. I then thought my re-hydrating dried yeast was about 85 at this
point can't I just pitch it?Seeing as how the wort is 85 and the
re-hydrating yeast is 85. So I did.  I then made the mistake of wrapping a
blanket around the fermenter, thinking that it might be too cold in my
basement where the ambient temp was 60 and I was using Windsor ale yeast. 12
hours later it was at full krausen and the strip stat showed 85, but that is
beside the point. Is it an OK practice to pitch at this temp with dry ale
yeast if both mediums are at the same temp? and assuming that one were to
ferment at a traditional ale temp?  I have yet to taste this beer.
By the way thanks to Rob Moline for his generous contribution of Danstar
yeast which he sent to me when I mentioned on this forum that I was
interested in trying it. I really like using it[ because of convenience ,
ensured adequate pitching rates and yeast viability] and will continue to
use it whenever possible. The beer I made from Nottingham yeast was cleaner
and had absolutely no off flavors. I realize this is considered a neutral
yeast but the lack of any off flavors gave this beer a pro quality that I
haven't experienced before.
I know this is a whole lot of arm waving.[ I love that term and credit the
HBD for putting a name to one of my discussion techniques.] But I like
reading about other brewers practical applications and thought I would throw
this out for comment.
Patrick Hughes





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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:27:54 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: toasted oak barrel

Santa was nice enough to bring me a 48L Hungarian oak barrel
(medium toast) for Christmas and really don't know how to
use or treat it.  That's the good news.  The bad news is
that I don't really know how to use it.  I searched the
archives for an answer and found a little information (and
many responses from Dave Burley on why you should just coat
them with pitch and be done with it) but nothing much new.

For example, I'd like to know how to sterilize the inside,
it's care and feeding, and how best to use it in beer
making.  Are there any helpful hints (i.e. make a beer in it
you're prepared to throw away, etc.) that would allow me to
use it with more success, more quickly?

Cheers!
marc



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