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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  toasted oak barrel (Jeremy Struffert)
  Re: trehalose (...follow ups to Steve's response) ("Fredrik")
  RE: oak barrel ("Brian Lundeen")
  RE: toasted oak barrel ("Doug Hurst")
  Over-fermented ESB (Kyle Mychajlonka)
  Re: oak barrel (Marc Sedam)
  Re: lag phase  (...follow ups to Steve's response) ("Fredrik")
  Carb calculator (Ricky Robbins)
  re: oak bbls ("-S")
  Compact Fridges (kmstfb2)
  Brewin In The Bush ("Phil Yates")
  Brumalt/Melanoidin/Honey Malt ("H. Dowda")
  Re.:  corn, sorghum beer ("Sean Richens")


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Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:16:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Struffert <mnbrewerguy at yahoo.com>
Subject: toasted oak barrel

Marc Sedam wrote:
>For example, I'd like to know how to sterilize the
inside,
it's care and feeding, and how best to use it in beer
making.  Are there any helpful hints (i.e. make a beer
in it
you're prepared to throw away, etc.) that would allow
me to
use it with more success, more quickly?<

All I know is that to sterilize the barrel you burn a
sulfur strip inside and seal the barrel ASAP after
burning the strip. I guess the way to get the barrel
ready for the beer you fill it with water and keep
adding water till the barrel don't leak anymore.
Beyond that I don't know much more. Hope this helps.

=====
Jeremy 
[501.5, 293.2] Apparent Rennerian
Burnsville, MN

Malt and hops may not have inspired 
as many precious pens as the noble grape, 
but they have always provided good company.



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:42:50 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: trehalose (...follow ups to Steve's response)

> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:30:47 -0500
> From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
> Subject: trehalose pt 2, was Re: tackling oxygen [and more] (another
follow up)
>

Thanks Steve for elaborating the trehalose topic!

After reading your response I've done some more thinking and search on the
topic.
It seems to me there are two issues to be understood, one is the protective
properties of trehalose during
stress, that prevents cell damage in general, and the other is if trehalose
has another releveant role of storage/buffering of carbohydrates?

> Trehalose has a role in stabilizing proteins from desiccation and cold
> damage and probably other stresses.   A lot of micro-organisms make
> trehalose in response to stress.  Some Macro-organisms like shrimp and
> lobster do too and that probably impacts the flavor.  It's also been shown
> to have a role in stabilizing lipid membranes aside from the protein
> stabilization.   That is trehalose protects the lipid membranes during
phase
> transitions to freezing & back.  To do this both sides of the membrane
must
> have access to trehalose, so yeast will release some trehalose into the
> space
> between the exterior membranes and cell wall.  They have a specific enzyme

Regarding the stress I don't quite understand the mechanism of preventing
cell damage. I found an article mentioned that trehalose for example
prevents proetin denaturation during heat shock - any idea what the
mechanism may be? The first idea that occured to me is that the trehalose
someone manages to absorb the heat energy in some process and covers the
protein from temperature gradients, like a shield? If the trehalose is more
responsive to
exciations than the protein it could make sense? What do you think?

What other possible mechanisms can there be?

> Yeast produce significant amounts of  trehalose when subjected to various
> stresses.  Brief heating of yeast causes them to accumulate trehalose and
> they are subsequently more heat resistant, for example.  For yeast at
least
> trehalose protects against heat as well as cold.  Alcohol and high osmotic
> pressure (from things like hi-gravity and sorbates) cause yeast to
> accumulate trehalose.   Yeast accumulate trehalose in "nutrient deficient"
> conditions as well ... the same conditions that generally cause
> flocculation, but this is somewhat after glycogen is created.  The
trehalose
> levels rise if glycogen rich dormant yeast are exposed to lots of oxygen
(a
> stressor).  They actually use glycogen to form trehalose in this case.
> Quain mentions unpublished data which supports the idea that there is a
> elevation in sugar uptake late in brewery fermentation which corresponds
> with trehalose creation.
> Growing brewing yeast in low stress conditions, fermented in 10-11P wort,
> they may accumulate 2-5% trehalose by weight.  In tests with very high
> gravity wort, brewery yeast accumulate up to 25% trehalose by weight -
even
> when the alcohol is removed by dialysis !    For dried baking yeast(also
> S.cerevisiae) 10% trehalose by weight is considered minimal for the drying
> process, while 15-20% is preferred.

The point in a storage as such is not hard to understand, however at first I
didn't quite understand the point in having two different *kinds* of
carbohydrate storages. (Apart from the trehalose function as stress reducer)
 It would seem easier to just go for one, instead of
maintaining two different dissimilation systems, say just glycogen and just
forget about trehalose? But then I was thinking that maybe there is a
balance
between carbon flow and ATP flow, and this regulation may call for two
sources. One with high ATP/carbon ration and one with low ATP/carbon ration
to use for building blocks? This way, the cell could make efficient use of
the carbohydrate storage at any stage rather than wasting something (wasting
energy or carbon)? Maybe  there is also the kinetic involved. If one
considers the
rate of ATP production from glycogen breakdown and the rate of breakdown of
trehalose, perhaps the correct
balance calls for regulation of the two paths in certain proportions? I
thought this may also explain why the glycogen and trehalose levels aren't
correlated.

What do you think of the following idea?
 - glycogen might be synthesised in response to negative energy/ATP stress.
 - trehalose might be synthesised in response to negative structural
carbon/stress as well as any other hostile stress that threatens the cell?

Structural carbon stress is probably evaluated at different levels in the
metabolic cycle, so I am not sure exactly what to consider.

So I would have to at least model the ATP levels in yeast, as well as
possibly the intermediate carbon level like maybe acetyl-CoA? Maybe the
balance of these
two may be part of regulating the glycogen and trehalose synthesis/usage?

I thought when modelling this nutrution stresses and other temperature and
toxic stesses probably even correlates with the two other
stresses though it may not be apparent at first thought?

What do you think Steve?

> > I thought it would generate ATP as well though possible less than
>glycogen?
>
> I don't want to overstate the case.  Yeast can metabolize the glucose
units
> in trehalose, but they expend energy in constructing it, and also in
> degrading
> it with trehalase enzyme.  They go to the trouble of  forming trehalose
for
> "reasons" other than energy storage.  Glycogen is far better for that..

I realise this now. Thanks!

 /Fredrik



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:50:06 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: oak barrel

> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:38:01 -0500 (EST)
> From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
> Subject: AN end to the end problem

> As a Christmas present to the posters who have been struck by 
> it, there is now one loose end tied: I dug into the heart of 
> the HBD and have found and (hopefully) fixed the problems 
> with lines beginning with "end".
>

Well done, Pat. It is with great relief that we have finally seen the

> 
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:27:54 -0500
> From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
> Subject: toasted oak barrel
> 
> For example, I'd like to know how to sterilize the inside,
> it's care and feeding, and how best to use it in beer
> making.  Are there any helpful hints (i.e. make a beer in it 
> you're prepared to throw away, etc.) that would allow me to 
> use it with more success, more quickly?
> 

This site has some good info on the basics of barrel care
http://www.winebarrels.com/ Go to the barrel care section.

I presume your goal is to use it as a lambic "game preserve" and that you
aren't really looking to add oak flavoring to your beers. The biggest
problem you face then is an overabundance of oak for awhile.   

Some good hot washings with soda ash should quickly make for a fairly
neutral barrel that will not impart a lot of oak character to the beers. You
can also store between uses with a sulfite solution to further extract any
oak character.

As an alternative, do you make apple cider? Oak goes well with the apple,
and you can use your barrel initially for fermentation and short aging, then
leave it in for longer storage as the oak diminishes. Or perhaps start with
some ciders, then move it into lambic use when it becomes neutral.

Cheers
Brian

PS I was just pulling Pat's leg above with my truncated message. ;-)



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:32:26 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: toasted oak barrel

Santa made a mistake and brought Marc Sedam the oak barrel that I was 
supposed to get.  Oh well, I got a nice refractometer and 20lb CO2 tank 
instead.  At any rate, here's a link to an article on oak barrel usage which 
may be of some help.

http://brewery.org/brewery/library/OakBarrelExp.html


The following is based upon info I've gathered over time from various 
websites.

New or dry barrels need several days of soaking to tighten and prevent 
leakage.

Rinse with a solution of: 2 oz sulphite, 1/2 oz citric acid, & cold water.  
Follow with a cold water rinse.

When the barrel is stored is should be filled with a sanitizing solution 
which also helps prevent drying and cracking.  2 oz sulphite & 5 gallons of 
water.


Hope this helps,

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:51:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Kyle Mychajlonka <kdem at earthlink.net>
Subject: Over-fermented ESB

I currently have an ESB in the plastic primary 
that should have been bottled on 
Nov. 30 (the flu and the holiday stopped it 
from happening). This is the first time
anything like this has happened to me. 
How should I proceed with this beer? Should
I prime and bottle it? Do I need to add 
any yeast to it? What is the collective 
opinion?

Kyle
Maryland



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:47:33 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Re: oak barrel

Thanks for the link, Brian.

Actually, I'm thinking of using it primarily to ferment "regular" beers.  The
barrel itself wasn't a request...my brother thought it would be really cool and
I so totally agree.  I was thinking about using it primarily for IPAs and some
Belgian beers, although I suppose I should stick with one type of style since I
could see this having mixed yeast cultures pretty quickly.

My other thought is to try and make oud bruins in it forever.  Who knows?

>
>
> This site has some good info on the basics of barrel care
> http://www.winebarrels.com/ Go to the barrel care section.



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:05:44 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: lag phase  (...follow ups to Steve's response)

> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:30:47 -0500
> From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
> Subject: trehalose pt 2, was Re: tackling oxygen [and more] (another
follow up)

Thanks again for your commens on this! I think this lag part is getting
clear enough, I had some follow up comments below.

> > Are you suggesting that the intrinsic lag is insignificant compared to
the
> > apparent or saturation lag?
>
> We could estimate it easily enough.
>
> 1L of CO2 at STP weighs 44/22.4 or just under 2 grams.  So 2gm/L is about
1
> volume of CO2, the level at which some bubbling will begin.  Producing
this
> requires fermentation of very nearly 4gm of sugar per liter or the
> fermentation of about 0.4P of wort sugars.
>
> I've reviewed some time vs SG data from the texts and it seems that the
last
> 50 hours of log-phase growth of a good 12P brewery fermentation causes the
> loss of about 25SG degrees of *apparent* gravity.  That's about 0.5
> *apparent*SG degree per hour.  The *real* attenuation rate is about 81% of
> that using the standard estimate.   So a good late rate of fermentation is
> *roughly*  0.4SG real degree per hour or 0.1P per hour.
>
> We would expect that with less yeast present at the beginning that the
> "brewery lag" , the time from pitching until first CO2 bubbles, will be
> considerably longer than [0.4P/(0.1P/hr)] 4 hours.  It seems entirely
> reasonable that the 8 to 24 hour sort of lag times reported is almost
> entirely time spent saturating the wort with CO2, and relatively little
time
> spent transitioning from dormant to growth phase.

I follow your estimates and they seem to make great sense, but I am not sure
I agree on the limit where bubbling starts? I would guess the first bubble
to come earlier than 1 vol/vol CO2 since the head space is mainly air in the
beginning and not 1 atm CO2?

I agree the saturation lag is an  issue to account for, but I am not
completely convinced that the transition lag should be insignificant aside
to the saturation lag? though with a healthy active starter, I guess the
main part ought to be saturation lag. But with a several days old yeast
directly from the fridge I wonder? I'm going to simulate this with an
algoritm, so I thought I better account for both lags anyhow. The final
decomposition is probably evident from the finestructure of the CO2 graph
later on, but I'm not at that stage yet to tell.

I looked at an old brewdata(OG 1.045  at  20C) I had and I got the first bubble
2 hours after pitching. With the pitching rate I used it represents about
18% of the max final population, and peak CO2 production was about 0,06
mole/h/l. This would estimate a initial max depletion rate of  0.09P/h
(about the same as 0.1P/h you suggested) once all initial cells are
transitioned to active state. In this brew I had an active fresh starter so
that the small apparent lag of 2 hours is possibly mainly saturation lag,
but 2h still seems alot for the first bubble? But anything much more than
that for that pitching rate of about 1.0-1.5 million/plato/ml would have
made me think it's a significant part intrinsic lag, maybe even a short lag
recovering from the shock when pitched?

This turns out complex with all the dynamics, so it's hard to "estimate"
things without accounting for everything, that's why I'm trying to model it,
but so far I want to make sure my initial assumptions are not too narrow.

 /Fredrik


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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:34:22 -0800
From: Ricky Robbins <ricky at rlrobbins.com>
Subject: Carb calculator


I recently finished my first homebrew and was happy to discover it
only contained 5.5 grams carbohydrates per 12 oz serving. I discovered
this from the site:

http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/carb-cal.shtml   (1.045 OG, 1.017 FG)

But, me being the skeptic I am and thinking this "just didn't sound
right" I decided to look at the math. Mr. Goodbeer gets his formulas
from:

http://hbd.org/ensmingr/top.html

and it appears either Mr. Goodbeer or I have missed something in
trying to formulate from the formulas (smile) and I hope it's me. I
prefer the 5.5 carbs to the 20 carbs I come up with.

He used the formula from the site:

cal/12 oz beer = [6.9*ABW + 4.0*(RE - 0.1)]*FG*3.55 

According to the formula listing, "The second item in brackets gives
the caloric contribution of carbohydrates" which would lead one to
believe "(RE-0.1)" can be used as the number of grams of carbohydrates
in the beer (as the "4.0" is given as the number of calories per gram
of carbohydrates). But this number is what is used, incorrectly I
think, in Mr. Goodbeer's calculator as the number of carbs in a 12
ounce serving. If I read the formula correctly, "RE-0.1" would be the
number of grams of carbohydrates in 100g of the beer and, for a 12 oz
beer, would need to be multiplied by FG (to convert to 100mL) and by
3.55 (to convert to 12 ounces). This changed my 5.5 carb beer into a
20 carbohydrate beer . . . and sounds more correct. Does that appear
to be a correct reading of the formulas as shown on
http://hbd.org/ensmingr/top.html ? Can that number even be used as a
decent estimate of the total carbohydrates?

As an aside, I'm still having trouble with exactly what "real extract"
is. Is it the unfermented sugars still hanging around in the brew at
completion of fermentation?

Thanks, all.

   Ricky



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:07:19 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: oak bbls

Marc Sedam asks,

>Santa was nice enough to bring me a 48L Hungarian oak barrel
> [...] I don't really know how to use it.
> [...] Dave Burley [...] just coat them with pitch
> and be done with it)

Personally I'm with Dave - I don't think "oaking" has a place in traditional
beer and my use has been with (uh) wine

FWIW I'd suggest that anyone interested in introducing oak flavor to beer
experiment with "oak beans", oak chips and oak powders used by winemakers
before investing in a $400 bbl.

I can make just a few useful comments.

Fresh oak barrels will impart an stunningly strong tannic note which is
unacceptable in wine and IMO worse in beer.  A product called something like
"barolkleen" is sold as a rinse agent to reduce the excess tannins.  I'd
strongly suggest you find some.  www.grapeandgranary.com carries this (no
affiliation, yada).

>I'd like to know how to sterilize the inside,

Can't be done.  I admit to having used iodophor and sulfite solutions, but
this is nothing like sterilization and given the porosity of wood can't even
be considered good sanitation.   The place above also sells sulfur strips -
a traditional wine barrel sanitizing step (of very dubious value and flavor
impact I think).  It's all whistling past the graveyard ... .  Wood cannot
be sanitized to common brewery standards.

Keeping infection in check is the key, not sterilization.  I like to keep my
little bbl topped with well sulfited water.  Look for an SO2 vs pH chart
when determining the amounts needed and consider acidification of the water.

>It's care and feeding, and how best to use it in beer
>making.

Chlorine is very destructive of wood tissue and ammonia too has no place
either.  Soda and percarbonate cleaners are about as effective as one could
hope for but I wouldn't over-use these - you wouldn't want to soak caustics
and alkalines into the wood.

Barrel staves may leak if the barrel is allowed to dry out.  This is usually
a reversible condition, but be aware that if it sits empty for a few weeks
you may have to "condition" it back into working shape with hot water and a
mess.   Wine barrels are opened, sometimes scraped down (re-cut), and
re-charred after several uses in order to increase the char flavor.   It
sounds like a daunting task.  Again charred oak strips are available at
winemaking shops - much easier.

>Are there any helpful hints ...

I haven't used oak in beer, but I'd suggest you fill the bbl with water and
taste the result over a few days or weeks.  I think you'll be surprised at
the impact.  That may help in gauging how long beer can sit in the bbl
without getting a quirky Quercus flavor ...  probably just a few days before
even a druid would reject the oak.

 -S





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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:56:36 -0500 (EST)
From: kmstfb2 at exis.net
Subject: Compact Fridges

Looking for a compact fridge that will hold carboy for lagering with
minimal modifications (no drilling holes).  Anybody know of a brand that
will meet these requirements. Cheers Tom


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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:35:39 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Brewin In The Bush

Having upset most of the Burradoovians by my sudden departure and
reappearance as "Cattle Baron of Berrima", I was looking forward to a new
brewing life. Mind you, I'm not pleased to hear that Brian Lundeen has been
referring to me as "Bugger Of Burradoo". I would have expected this sort of
behaviour from Ray Kruse since I named him "Goat King Of Kentucky". But you
can't get much out of Ray these days. He's been living on a concentrated
diet of sausages and eggs all year and talks about nothing but his dramatic
weight loss. I'm not game to ask him if he brews or drinks beer anymore. I
reckon I'd lose quite a bit of weight if I gave the beer away. But I'm not
about to do that!

But moving on to the subject, brewing in the bush ain't as easy as I was
thinking. For a start, we depend on rain water. When green slimy stuff
started oozing out of the shower, I was puzzled. Shortly after I was
confronted with the fact that we had hit the bottom of the water tanks. I
hadn't thought to check, not that I could do much about it. Whilst Jill and
Phoebe were screaming about no showers or drinking water, I was wondering
where my next supply of brewing water would come from. I bought a truck load
of water from town. Then I figured out how to divert water from the bore
down to the water tanks behind the house. This first gets pumped up to a
header tank on the hill which I then gravity feed down to the house. It
comes out of the bore a little high in iron, but by the time it gets to the
house, the iron content drops considerably. It tastes great, but I'm yet to
brew with it.

Next problem was the power supply. On any windy day we get up to ten power
failures. With no power we have no pump to supply any water at all. The
longest black out we had lasted twenty four hours. I told the Electricity
suppliers this just isn't on for a brewer, but they don't seem to care. So
next on my shopping list will be an emergency generator. I figure something
like 10kva's should be enough to keep my three brewing fridges and one temp
controlled chest freezer running okay. Jill asked about running the oven. I
can't be concerned about the oven. I told her we are going on Ray's diet and
she can cook all the sausages and eggs on my gas burner. Forget about
roasting potatoes in the oven, they're not on the diet anyway!

So brewing ain't easy out in the sticks, but I will conquer all! My saviour
has been Wes who, brewing from the safety of town, delivers the occasional
keg to me for sampling. Thank you Wes, without your supply I'm sure my skin
would crack in the parched heat of an Aussie summer.

Out here in the sticks I was feeling a bit lonely. But it took Jeff Renner
only days to geographically locate me. Not long after I received a call on
my mobile phone diverted from my home/office land line. We were out at a
bush party in the middle of nowhere and I was preaching to the local cockies
about the virtues of bush brewing when the next thing I know, Jeff's calling
me from America on my mobile phone. You can run, but you certainly can't
hide from Jeff!!

All the best to all brewers for the up and coming new year. The world has
seen some nasty changes in the last couple of years. I can only suggest we
all "keep on brewin", as recommended by Dave Burley.

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:24:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brumalt/Melanoidin/Honey Malt

Posters have been discussing how to make melanoidin
malt.  During the discussion, Brumalt has been equated
to melanoidin.  The honey malt produced by
Gambrinus(?) is commonly described as Brumalt. So, is
brumalt, melanoidin?  If a=b and b=c then a=c



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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:37:27 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at mts.net>
Subject: Re.:  corn, sorghum beer

Hola Mauricio!

http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/brewerytap/555/gfbeer/gfbeer.htm

is Sean Sweeney's site - the most complete published information I know of
on the web.  Be sure to check "news" and "recipes", a lot of the information
is there.  The best part of the information is how he works on the flavour
with gluten-free specialty malts.

For a stout, use ground coffee (add at end of boil) in place of roast
barley!

Are you in the picture at this link?
http://www.winnipegbrewbombers.ca/images/cerveceros_1060.JPG

I'm not an expert on what's available in commercial enzymes, but they have a
reputation for being very effective, so you end up with alcohol and water
instead of beer.  Using a specific enzyme, like you are thinking, makes
sense as it would hopefully limit hydrolysis of the starch.

I've had no luck getting sorghum malt imported to Canada, but have made a
small amount of jora de maiz at home for chicha.  Is it possible to get it
sent (or carried) from Chile or Peru?

Diastatic power = amount of active enzymes, in a general way.  There is no
specific relation between the diastic power and the starch content.

Chao,
Sean Richens
Winnipeg, Canada
(314 degrees, 829 miles R.)





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