HOMEBREW Digest #4442 Fri 02 January 2004

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

  RE: oak barrels ("-S")
  Copper and Sodium Hydroxide (Fred Johnson)
  Switching neutral ("Patrick Hughes")
  Poles ("A.J deLange")
  RE: Switching the neutral ("Richard Scotty")
  Plambic Digest subscribers please take note ("John D. Misrahi")
  re: switching neutrals ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Oak Barrels ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Re: Brumalt enlightment ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  More Power To The Powerless ("Phil Yates")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The HBD Logo Store is now open! * * http://www.hbd.org/store.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 01:19:07 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: RE: oak barrels Brian of the great white north says ... , >I disagree with your assessment of burning sulfur strips as being of dubious >value and flavour impact. This is by far the preferred method of storage by >winemakers, Hold on there - you've taken my statement out of context. The question was about STERILIZING oak barrels for beer, NOT barrel storage. Burning sulfur pastilles will create some free SO2 which *inhibits* some bacteria and fungi. Sulfite and burning sulfur pastilles are two different ways of introducing SO2 and neither is capable of sterilization or even Hbrewery level sanitization. SO2 makes life difficult for many bacteria and fungi - but not all. Specifically SO2 does a nice job of stopping acetos and lactos including pedios. It does not stop many S.cerevisiae(S.c.) yeasts including wild yeasts which will produce phenolic clovey and medicinal flavors. There is an oft' repeated myth that SO2 somehow (magically) holds off wild yeast but not cultured yeast. If we mean that certain non-S.c.yeasts are stopped this is certainly true. SO2 at high levels will even stun S.c yeast - both wild and cultured.. As a rule it does not kill S.c yeasts, probably some non-S.c yeasts are undeterred too. At neutral pH of early fermentation there are a lot of bacteria that can tolerate SO2.and make a mess of things. >The gas itself does not seem to have a flavour impact. Right, but the pastilles throw particles as well as drips and also produce SO3 (which goes into solution as sulfuric acid). Pastilles should not be used as a santization step immediately prior to barrel use, as some sources claim. Most winemaking books suggest that after burning the sulfur for *storage* that barrels be rinsed or spray washed before reuse. To the extent this introduces a modest level of SO2 to the beer it should act as a significant anti-oxidant and help reduce aldehyde levels. Any free sulfur is another matter. There are bacteria which can "make a living" by oxidizing elemental sulfur in acidic non-aerobic environments ! I still find the value of sulfur tapers in sanitization and flavor dubious (i.e fraught with uncertainty and doubt). They may well have sufficient anti-fungal activity to reduce the incidence of barrel rot. ==== This all begs the real question of oak barrels in beer - why are some people hell-bent on introducing tannins and oxidation (barrels transpire some O2) to beer, after going to great lengths to prevent this sort of damage ? >From all I read traditional oak fermenters and shipping barrels were covered with pitch to seal them and prevent beer+wood contact. Even the vanillin and vanilla-like phenolic flavors which are a major benefit of oaking wine taste smokey and out-of-place in beer to my tongue. I don't get the point ... now if you had a juniper-wood barrel you might have something ! -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 07:31:01 -0500 From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> Subject: Copper and Sodium Hydroxide Fellow brewers: I only received one off-line response to my question about using a solution of sodium hydroxide to clean my new copper counter flow chiller. The Cole-Parmer chart indicates that a 20% solution of sodium hydroxide with a 48 hour exposure period has "no effect", meaning no deleterious effect. For aluminum, the chart indicates that 20% sodium hydroxide will produce a "Severe effect: not recomended", so it does look like copper is much more resistant to NaOH than is aluminum. I was considering circulating a 5% solution for cleaning and perhaps storing the chiller filled with a 0.5% solution. I really don't like the idea of storing the chiller "dry", meaning it has residual water sitting around in it growing things. I believe it should be stored with something in it to prevent growth of fungi, bacteria, etc. Anyone have any thoughts my plan? (I won't bother you all again on this topic if I get no responses.) Fred L Johnson Apex, North Carolina, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:02:12 -0600 From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com> Subject: Switching neutral I don't know of any reason to switch a neutral [the grounded conductor] , in brewing applications, involving 120 volts or more, it is a conductor and should be solidly connected continuous back to your power source. The metal or mettalic components of your system should be grounded with the equipment grounding conductor [the green or green w/ yellow stripe or bare copper conductor if your wiring is following established protocol for identification of conductors] not the grounded [white or gray] conductor. This will always protect the mettallic components of your system from becoming inadvertantly energized. The neutral and the ground should be seperate and not connected together at any point in your brewing equipment.If your ungrounded [hot] conductor is energized and your grounded conductor [ neutral ] is not continuous back to the power source and one were to place themselves in this return path you will find out why the neutral is actually called a conductor. Not to mention you stand the chance of damaging any electronic components in your system if you lose the neutral while the hot is energized. GFCI protection is advisable and will not allow you to connect the neutral [grounded conductor] to the green [grounding conductor] at any point on the load side of the GFCI. Safety First! Patrick Hughes Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:10:03 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Poles RE: Switching neutrals - Decisions with regard to such things are better made with the help of the systems engineering approach rather than simple adherence to the "better is the enemy of good enough" mantra. The systems engineer would attempt to optimize over some criterion, usually cost. The extra cost of the dual pole relay would be compared to the cost of the repair (service call for the compressor in my case) multiplied by the probability of the failure requiring the repair (i.e. the direct cost of the "better" part compared to the "expected cost" of not using it). Safety would be considered (probability that someone would be injured if the neutral opened while a phase stayed closed times the probability that someone would be injured by this set of circumstances times the cost of defending the lawsuit but this would have to be modulated by the expected cost of a similar injury caused by switching only the phase when the outlet is wired with reverse polarity (which occurs with proability 50% according to the home inspector who looked at the place I live in now though in my recent home improvement job I've only found 1 outlet with this problem) as well as the costs related to other factors. Obviously some products and projects have more of this formal systems engineering than others (we always try to give our customers as much as they will pay for) and it should be obvious that it does not insure the "best of all possible worlds". When choosing an optimality criterion one has to consider the question "optimum for whom?" The manufacturer of my chiller saved a buck by using a single pole relay and thus made an extra buck profit per unit (assuming he hasn't been sued in a reverse wired outlet case). The cost of his decision was borne by me - the user- when the system boundaries were expanded to include my brewery. It's his job to optimize over his situation - it's my job to optimize over mine. If anyone thinks that my previous post was intended to say "Switch the neutral!", it wasn't. It said use a SPDT if you want to switch only the phase and a DPDT if you want to switch the neutral. I wish my chiller manufacturer had decided to switch both but he didn't. I have to live with this (or put in a double pole relay on my own). It's not actually something that keeps me awake at night. That said, I've seen many circuits where both the phases and the neutral are switched (and sometimes fused as well) and many more where it's only the phases. The designers of those pieces of equipment had reasons for the choices they made. And yes, many wires/cables are multiply insulated (and sometimes armored as well). It depends on the application. Happy New Year to all! A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 15:40:25 +0000 From: "Richard Scotty" <rscotty2 at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Switching the neutral Just thought I'd chime in on the subject as I began my professional carreer as an engineer with a major electrical manufacturer. First and foremost, if you're having difficulty with relay contacts fusing (sticking), you have seriously undersized your relay. You may want to consider purchasing a small motor contactor instead. I would expect a size 0 would be sufficient for most brewing applications, but consult the manufacturer's tables for your specific application. It'll cost a few bucks, but if you want to eliminate the problem, this would be the appropriate solution. Relay construction varies, but it is highly likely that all contacts are attached to the same armature. In this case, if one of the contacts fused and held the armature closed, the neutral contact would remain closed as well. Most of my brewery equipment is seriously over-engineered. I don't like problems on brew day :-) Rich Scotty Chief Electrical Engineer The Crapshoot Brewery Highlands Ranch, CO Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:22:30 -0800 From: "John D. Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca> Subject: Plambic Digest subscribers please take note Due to a technical malfunction of sorts, the Plambic mailing list is temporarily unavailable. Hopefully it will be up and running again shortly, though some archive material is gone forever. I will post a notice here when it is back in place. I think anyone who wants to remain a part of the list will have to re-subscribe as I think that info was lost as well. I have really enjoyed the good discussions there as of late and hope you will all remain a part of it. John Misrahi Montreal, Canada Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:23:38 -0800 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: re: switching neutrals "Ronald La Borde" spoke something that's been on my mind while I've been reading about "Switching the neutral" "What if the hot side contact did stick, and the neutral opens, now you have a potential hot box. So is this good or bad?" In fact, that's why switching the neutral is a no-no in the code, unless you guarantee to open the hot side at the same time. If you have welded contacts, you're using the wrong device to switch the load. Generally speaking, resistive loads will not weld contacts...inductive loads like motorized chillers will. But then the switch must be rated for the reactive load, and you'd be surprised how big the switch must be for inductive loads. If you look carefully at the business end of an inductively rated switch, you'll usually notice double contacts--in series, not parallel. This is so the total air gap the arc must cross between the contact faces increases twice as fast. The moveable contact is held in place with a spring, so that if one face does weld, the contact will pivot up, allowing the other face to break the circuit. Larger switches may have an arc-quenching coil at right angles to the contact movement. This blows the arc out and away from the center of the contact, cooling it faster and causing most of the scarring to take place outside of the point of contact when the switch is closed. If you have a two pole switch, and you're worried about welded contacts, wire the poles *in series* with the hot side. Switching the neutral is usually not a good idea. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:05:12 -0600 From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> Subject: Re: Oak Barrels > I disagree with your assessment of burning sulfur strips as being of dubious > value and flavour impact. This is by far the preferred method of storage by > winemakers, since filling with sulphite solution robs them of their precious > oak (again, if a neutral barrel is desired, this is not an issue). The gas > itself does not seem to have a flavour impact. There was a message a while back (Paul Gatza?) about burning sulphur and the repeatedly bad flavor impact this method had on beer. My impression is generally suphites and beer do not mix. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 13:17:18 +1030 From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> Subject: Re: Brumalt enlightment On Wednesday, 31 December 2003 at 18:50:06 +0100, Thomas Rohner wrote: > Hi Wes > as a german speeking guy, i hop i can translate it for you. > It's not Bru-malt (at least that's what i think) it's Bruehmalz. This seems reasonable. > (Normally it would be a u with those double dots on it, instead of > the ue, but i can't post this character on the HBD) The word means > exactly what you guessed, bruehen=brewing. Well, brauen means "to brew". Bruehen is more difficult to translate. My dictionary says that it means "to blanch, to pour boiling water over". In a brewing context you might use it to represent "to steep", though I have no idea if this is the case. > But it comes from the malting method. In the traditional floor- > malting, they used thicker layers of wetted grains. By doing that > the stuff heated up(brewed). That's what the maltsters want to > avoid, for regular malts. What is traditional flour malting? Greg - -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:49:51 +1100 From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com> Subject: More Power To The Powerless Groggy Greg from South Australia asks if I'm located in North East NSW. No Sir!! That would put me uncomfortably close to "Captain Ego Of The North". Southern Highlands of NSW Greg, we enjoy a cool climate. Well we did, this summer would burn the back end out of a malt roaster! I take your point about not going over board regarding an emergency generator for brewing. Perhaps I should add that apart from brewing fridges etc, I wouldn't mind running some lights and of course the water pump without which, no brewing can be done at all. I was told to allow quite a bit more for electric pumps starting up, as opposed to just running them. Jill's dad offered a spare thumping big 35kva generator he had. The beast is run by a giant caterpillar diesel engine and could probably light up the entire hamlet of Berrima. I could start selling electricity to the locals on brew days! Without getting scientific, I figured 10kva would cover all my brewing activities along with a few other past times such as shearing wombats. Cheers Phil Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 01/02/04, by HBD2HTML v1.2 by KFL
webmaster@hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96