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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Yeast Culturing in Baby Jars (Matthew Riggs)
  Re: Carb calculator ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Bru:hmalz ("A.J deLange")
  Homebrew shops in Phoenix (Mike Walker)
  RE:  HERMS exchanger design - will this work? (Bill Tobler)
  Happy New Year! (Pat Babcock)
  Cider--How to Sweeten ("Weaver Joseph T MAJ CENTAF-AUAB CAOC\\SG")
  Re: Brumalt enlightment (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Yeast Culture in Baby Food Jars ("beer man")
  Carb calculator (Ricky Robbins)
  RE: Switching the neutral ("Ronald La Borde")


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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:46:44 -0600
From: Matthew Riggs <braumeister at cox.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast Culturing in Baby Jars

Alexandre Enkerli asked a bunch of assorted questions on yeast culturing.

My suggestion for most all of your questions would be to look on some 
mycology sites to find the information you are looking for. There are a 
bunch that have actual video demonstrations. I would say more but would 
probably implicate myself by divulging the web addresses and content. 
But an obvious start would be www.fungi.com . This man has been growing 
mushrooms for a long time and has some excellent supplies for legal 
mushrooms. Also you can get your malt extract agar pretty cheap here 
along with the flame source you are needing. Not to mention if you 
wanted to make some real slants or plates.

Hope this helps you out in some way. Search google for mycology, or shroom.
- -- 
Matthew Riggs in San Angelo, TX




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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:08:52 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Carb calculator

On Tuesday, 30 December 2003 at  7:32:43 -0800, Demonick wrote:
>
> Here is the formula I use for percent alcohol and carbs.  The C code is
> available at http://www.primetab.com
>
> <snip>

Some time ago I picked up the C code, used it in my programs and
modified it.  It doesn't contain any copyright information.  Can you
tell me any details?  May I redistribute it freely?

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:20:36 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Bru:hmalz

The Germans (at least Narziss anyway) spells it as indicated in the 
title which makes it clear that its name is derived from "bru:hen" 
which means to scald or soak in hot water.

A.J.



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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:26:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike Walker <doplbock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Homebrew shops in Phoenix

John,

Tell your son to check out Homebrew Depot and talk to
Ken.  The shop is at Guadalupe and the 101.  I'll also
plug our local club, the Arizona Society of
Homebrewers.

2655 W Guadalupe
Mesa, AZ 85202
480-831-3030

Mike
Chandler, AZ



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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:44:13 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  HERMS exchanger design - will this work?

Steve wants to upgrade to a HERMS type system, but wants a separate heat
exchanger.  I say go for it.  You will really like the hands off brewing.
You can get a lot of other things done while your system is being watched
over by your electronics.  My system is an all electric HERMS, and I have
found that the HLT water gets a thermocline right at the level of the
heating element.  It was actually cold to the touch below the element and
hot above it.  So I needed to mix up the water somehow.  I first tried a
submersible bilge pump from Rule, (They were supposed to be good to 200
degree F) but it warped so bad the impeller started to hit the case.  So I
quit experimenting and bought a small mag drive pump and I now circulate the
HLT.  It made a big improvement in the way the system works.  The water
heats faster and so does the mash liquid circulating through the HERMS coil
inside.  My point is that you will need to move the water around in the heat
exchanger.  I'm guessing you're doing 10 gallon batches.  I think you will
be stressing the system with just 2 gallons of hot water trying to heat up a
24 pound mash.  Think about it.  The heat exchanger is the very heart of a
HERMS system.  If it's under powered, your initial heat-up will be sluggish
and so will the step-ups. On the other hand, once you get up to temperature,
you will have to control the temperature of the small heat exchanger so you
don't overheat the wort.  If you're mashing at 148, you don't want the heat
exchanger water to be much more than 10 degrees hotter than the mash
setpoint, IMO.  The HERMS coil in my system is a convoluted tube much like
the ones inside a CFC.  It's very efficient and I can get away with a very
low differential temperature.

A system I really like is Bill Freemans HERMS, "The Prefessor"
(http://www.brewrats.org/hwb/er/).  He uses a separate CFC as a heat
exchanger.  He circulates the HLT water with a separate pump, and the mash
circulates through the inner coil.  The mash temperature controller controls
the on/off of the hot water pump.  When the mash gets to temperature, the
hot water pump shuts off and the mash keeps circulating.  This system heats
the wort to within one or two degrees of the HLT temperature, so you would
have very exact control.   And the HLT gets circulated at the same time.

I think your idea will work if it's powered enough to keep the water hot
during steps.  I put 14 gallons of water in the HLT for every brew session,
and that gives me a heat sink that doesn't quit.  (Having a 7000 watt
element inside doesn't hurt either!)  You already have a big tank of hot
water in the HLT, and you should try to use some of that heat I think.

Cheers and Happy New Year to everyone!!


I'm staying home and brewing an American Larger tonight.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:28:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Happy New Year!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Just wanted to wish all a Happy and Prosperous New Year!

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:13:35 +0300
From: "Weaver Joseph T MAJ CENTAF-AUAB CAOC\\SG"
Subject: Cider--How to Sweeten

Collective,
This fall, I brewed two 5 gallon batches of apple cider.  Easiest brewing
project so far.  Drove out to a beautiful family owned orchard near the
Snake River in Idaho, put 2 sanitized carboys under the tap of a cider tank
(while the cider was being pressed..no preservatives), filled them up and
pitched the yeast (Lalvin K1-V116).  Pretty sure the juice was a blend of
popular apple varieties and probably not cider apples but a 2 gallon test
batch from this orchard last year was excellent!

My goal was to make one batch dry and one batch slightly sweet.  I had
planned to arrest the yeast in the sweet batch with potassium sorbate and
then sweeten but then realized that it would not undergo secondary
fermentation and carbonate when bottled.  

How do I sweeten this batch without creating bottle bombs?  Add lactose?
How much for a 5 gallon batch?

JOSEPH T. WEAVER DVM, Maj, USAF, BSC
CENTAF(F)/SG PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICER
AL UDEID AB, QATAR
DSN 318-436-4112
FAX  XXX-XXX-4427
NIPR ph at auab.aorcentaf.af.mil 
SIPR ph at auab.aorcentaf.af.smil.mil

A disproportionate representation of young males in their first through
third decades is readily apparent, as is the concurrent use of intoxicants
and various illicit substances with deliberate handling of the offending
reptile.

			Medical Treatment of Reptile Envenomation




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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:50:06 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Brumalt enlightment

Hi Wes
as a german speeking guy, i hop i can translate it for you.
It's not Bru-malt (at least that's what i think) it's Bruehmalz.
(Normally it would be a u with those double dots on it, instead of
the ue, but i can't post this character on the HBD)
The word means exactly what you guessed, bruehen=brewing.
But it comes from the malting method. In the traditional floor-
malting, they used thicker layers of wetted grains. By doing that
the stuff heated up(brewed). That's what the maltsters want to avoid,
for regular malts.

Happy new Year to all

Thomas



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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:15:04 -0800
From: "beer man" <westcoastalt at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast Culture in Baby Food Jars

Alexandre Enkerli writes:

>Been reading a bunch of things on yeast culturing [1-11] and pretty >
>much decided on using baby food jars in a pressure cooker [2]. Found the 
>agar-agar, secured a deal with parents of a very young baby nearby, will 
>borrow a pressure cooker from someone else and will manage to find a flame 
>source.
>It's still a lot of information to digest and some of it's slightly 
>contradictory.

Alex,

Pierre Rajotte's book First Steps in Yeast Culture is the essential read on 
the topic.  It is a practical manual of microbiological technique.  It has 
diagrams of specific techniques, provides information on the types of 
supplies to use and gives advice from Pierre's own experience in homebrewing 
and in the brewing industry.

Given your questions about autoclave use (amount of water, sealed jars), 
this book should help you a lot more than individual responses from the 
digest members.  You can find it at your local homebrew shop or online at 
amazon.com or morebeer.com

I am anxiously awaiting "part two" of this book.  I put in a call to 
Pierre's publisher (his wife I believe) to see when it would be out, and no 
response.  Anyone out there have any info on this?

Also, thank you Steve (-S) for your responses to my yeast flocculation 
questions back in November.  Your responses were very helpful and 
informative.  As a result, my beer is improving dramatically.

Cheers,

Oregon Alt



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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:33:47 -0800
From: Ricky Robbins <ricky at rlrobbins.com>
Subject: Carb calculator


From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
> A Beer with 1.045 OG/1.017 FG has ~20 g carbohydrates/12 oz (=80
> cal/12 oz) and is ~3.7% ABV (=71 cal/12 oz).

That's what I came up with, as well: 3.7% ABV with 151 calories and
20g Carbs per 12oz serving.

> "Real Extract" is a measure of the sugars that are fermented and
> accounts for the density lowering effects of alcohol. Basically,
> it's your FG (in Plato) if you removed all the alcohol.

Okay, it's the "measure of the sugars that are fermented" that I've
been having problems with, because to my reading it's backward from
the "FG if you removed all the alcohol" that comes later. If the
sugars ferment then they are no longer sugars, but have been turned
into alcohol and CO2, correct? (I'm asking) And if the real extract in
the formula is accounting for the sugars that *are* (as opposed to
*are not*) fermented, what exactly is contributing the carbs that it
accounts for and what accounts for the carbs in the unfermented
sugars? One thing to note: I'm reading the phrase "sugars that are
fermented" to mean the sugars that undergo the fermentation process of
turning into alcohol and maybe you are using the phrase to mean sugars
that still remain unfermented (which in my way of thinking would
specifically not include the "sugars that are fermented" - smile).

In simpler terms, is the RE accounting for the unfermented sugars in
the beer. If yes, then it makes complete sense. If no, I'm still
confused. And, if no, feel free to point me to a reference (book or
site) and I'll get out of your hair. 8)

> BTW, Mr. Goodbeer and you should use the proper URL for my site: 
> <http://hbd.org/ensmingr/>.

I just used the one he posted, sorry, but I will pass it on. I
previously e-mailed him with my suspected error in his formulation and
he has corrected the site to yield the carbs differently.


From: Demonick
>Here is the formula I use for percent alcohol and carbs. The C code
>is available at http://www.primetab.com

In wading through the formulas and playing with them it would appear
to me that the real extract is a calculated measurement of the
unfermented sugars in the beer, calculated to account for the fact
that the alcohol content "skews" the effort to use the gravity
measurement to measure the sugars because alcohol is less dense than
water. If that is true then I understand the formulas now and my only
problem all along was reading "sugars that are fermented" as sugars
that fermented and were no longer sugars but were alcohol and CO2, so
thinking RE was some sort of measurement of the difference in the OE
and AE, a measurement of the sugars that fermented into alcohol. In
other words, I think I've got it and if not I may be hopeless. 8)

Thanks for the explanation, the additional formulas, and the link.

From: "A. J. delange" <ajdel at cox.net>
> Carbohydrates are specified (ASBC Method Beer-6) as the real extract
> less protein and ash. Protein is a bit dicey to measure but is
> usually small relative to the real extract as is ash. Thus, for a
> rough approximation, estimate the sugars as the real extract.

Thanks for the explanation. As above, I've either now got it or I'm
hopeless, but I think I've got it (famous last words). If I don't have
it I may decide I don't need it (but probably will still want it). 8)

   Ricky



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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:40:33 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Switching the neutral

>From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
>Subject: Switching the neutral
>
>Since it was brought up again I'll mention another advantage to
>switching the neutral: relays sometimes fail by having the contacts
>fuze. If this happens (and it did happen to me on a chiller) a DPDT
>relay with enough springiness in the armature to allow one contact to
>release even though the other is fuzed would save the day.

There's no question that YAF (Yet Another Feature) can be added, and
in the name of safety, I suppose this could be good. However, there is
a practical limit to how far one should go to achieve that end.

If you look at most UL listed devices, I believe that you will find
most power switches do not switch the neutral. You can do it, if you
wish, but think about the relay or a switch similar to the above
mentioned one. What if the hot side contact did stick, and the neutral
opens, now you have a potential hot box. So is this good or bad?

Look at the practical side. Take the power cord. It has an insulating
material protecting the conductor. Gee, just one, why not insulation
over insulation. It would be safer perhaps in a conduit, better yet an
insulated conduit! What if the fuse fails, the line cord could get
hot, better make it fire proof. Oops, not asbestos though. See my
point. There's a sweet spot to design, that to be exceeded would be
over design.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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