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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Schmidling Mill Motorized ("Dana Yonaki")
  Re: Invert Sugar (Wes Smith)
  Homebrew Competition Bottle Labeler (Scott Alfter)
  re: molasses beer from George Washington (Steve Piatz)
  Brewpubs in Vienna ("Sasha von_Rottweil")
  Re: coffee roaster (Demonick)
  purging the keg ("Jay Spies")
  sugar from beets ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  11th Annual Peach State Brewoff (Chris Collier)
  Re: adding yeast at bottling, or not? Liquid or dry? (Denny Conn)
  SLOWWWWW  attenuation (rdavis77)
  HELP - Diagnosing Brew problems (Flavor / Aroma) ("Rogers, Mike")
  re: coffee, caffeine, home roasting ! ("jim")
  Melanoidin malt in Pils (Leo Vitt)
  stuck fermentation on a barley wine (b shockley)
  Re: Canning jar starter/Canning clear wort ("Mark Kellums")
  Re: Invert Sugar/Citrus-y flavor ("-S")
  Beet Sugar ("Jeffrey Rankert")
  Re: sugar from beets ("-S")
  Bottle Washer ("Brian Lundeen")


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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:59:47 -0800
From: "Dana Yonaki" <vectorproductions at lycos.com>
Subject: Schmidling Mill Motorized


I thought this rig looked pretty nice.  Anyone have any experience 
motorizing a mill?  This seems more elaborate than I was thinking. 
 I was considering using a cordless drill driver.

Item number: 2369711604 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?

ViewItem&item=2369711604&ssPageName=ADME:L:DS:US:8





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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:07:44 +1100
From: Wes Smith <wsmith at rslcom.net.au>
Subject: Re: Invert Sugar

Steve Alexander wrote:

That's about the most extreme case to be made in favor of invert sugar in
>fermentation ... and it's very weak.   Yeast normally will produce
>prodigious and effective amounts of invertase.  Getting yeast to handle
>sucrose is rarely more difficult than getting them to tackle other sugar
>adjuncts.

Maybe not as weak and extreme a statement as you say Steve. Consider the 
kit brewer who buys a 1.8kg can of hopped malt and adds 1kg of cane sugar. 
That's a 36% cane sugar adjunct ratio. Yep, the yeast will produce 
prodigious amounts of Invertase, but at a time when it is also starting to 
multiply itself for the main event ahead. I recall raising this point, or 
hearing it discussed at a presentation from our main yeast manufacturers. 
Possibly someone from White Labs or Wyeast might like to comment on this 
point. And then of course there are our local mainstream brewers who use up 
to 35% "syrup adjunct" in their brews. Legend would have us believe (at 
least here in Australia) that the bulk tankers seen driving into the 
brewery yards contained cane sugar syrup. Seems not so any more. Last 
Friday I met with a Grain Chemist colleague and supplier who used to work 
for one of our larger starch manufacturers and ran this topic past him. He 
made the point that today these same breweries use a range of syrup 
adjuncts including wheat starch derived maltose and maltodextrin syrups as 
well as dextrose syrups. The advent of "light" beers in Australia ("light" 
here means low alcohol - NOT low calorie!) demands hi levels of 
maltodextrin to balance off the lack of body in the 2.8 to 3.8% ABV brews. 
But I digress - if cane sugar syrup would do the job, I'm sure these same 
breweries would not be using the more expensive starch derived adjuncts. I 
will pursue this line with the appropriate people at the two mainstream 
breweries concerned.

>There is no credible evidence beyond speculation that fermentation of
>sucrose causes any greater extent of "citrusy flavor" than the fermentation
>of the component glucose and fructose.  I've attempted to produce the citrus
>flavor by fermenting separate sucrose, glucose and fructose solutions - with
>no luck in any case.  Other speculation include infection and the low
>nutrient environment of high sugar-adjunct wort as the cause.   High sugar,
>and therefore low amino acid, worts will cause yeast to produce more organic
>acids and this may be a causative factor.

And the old faithful tastebuds that have consistently "noticed" this 
citrusy effect in countless HB comp judgings? I cant quantify that 
"citrusy" effect other than to report it exist in countless HB beers. Maybe 
they all used the same extract? I am impressed you have done some 
'speriments on the components of sucrose - wish I had the time! (BTW where 
is Doc Pivo these days??) You could be very right that the low FAN can 
cause off flavours. But my Grain Chemist colleague also raised another 
factor - seems that Aussie cane sugar  - even the refined version, can have 
all sorts of negative flavour compounds. He referred to the food industry 
and the variability that the growing seasons climatic conditions had on the 
sugar cane.

Could it be that the beet sugar refining process produces a "cleaner" 
sucrose? And just to top this segment off, about a week ago I saw a post on 
a local digest pointing out that the "taste of invertase" would be 
prominent in a kit brew using sugar. The advisor recommended LME as a 
substitute. Taste of invertase??

Wes.





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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:27:50 -0800
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Homebrew Competition Bottle Labeler

Not everybody has ProMash, so I figured I'd throw together a little web app
to crank out bottle labels for competition entries.  Have a look here:

http://snafu.alfter.us/compform.html

Once you fill in the name of the competition, you can select the BJCP
category for your entry, fill in the other details, and print labels.  For
those categories that need extra information (fruit beer, mead, etc.), it
prompts for the extra information so you don't get dinged by the judges.
 
It's also fairly easy to add the label printer to your own website; a few
extra lines of HTML is all it takes.

Have a look at it and tell me what you think.  I think it's reasonably
error-free, but it needs some more people pounding away at it to see if it's
fully up to snuff.

  _/_   Scott Alfter ($firstname at $lastname.us)
 / v \  http://alfter.us/
(IIGS(  Southern Nevada Ale Fermenters Union - http://snafu.alfter.us/
 \_^_/  Beer and Loafing in Las Vegas - http://www.beerandloafing.org/



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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:53:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Steve Piatz <piatz at cray.com>
Subject: re: molasses beer from George Washington

Bob Devine wrote:
> Subject: link of the week - Jan 10
> 
> You think you have a recipe you're proud of?  Just for comparison,
> here is one that George Washington recommended:
>   
> We have pre-prohibition beers.  Does anyone want to try pre-revolutionary?
> 

A few years ago I made a beer with a similar recipe.  Let us
say calling it beer by today's standards is a stretch.  I'm
sure some members of the Minnesota Homebrewers Association
still fondly recall tasting this beverage :-) It was extremely
bitter.  The book is full of stuff like this.  The book is
"Early American Beverages" by John Hull Brown which is
copyright 1966.  The recipe I used is attributed to "Kitchen
Dictionary, 1846".


    HOP BEER: Put to six ounces of hops five quarts of water,
    boil them three hours - then strain off the liquor, and put
    to the hops four more quarts of water, a tea-cup full of
    ginger, and boil the hops three hours longer.  Strain and
    mix with the rest of the liquor., and stir in a couple of
    quarts of molasses.  Take about half a pound of bread, and
    brown it very slowly - when very brown and dry, put in the
    liquor, to enrich the beer.  Rusked bread is best for this
    purpose, but a loaf of bread cut in slices, and toasted
    until brittle, will do very well.  When rusked bread is
    used, pound it fine, and brown it in a pot, as you would
    coffee, stirring constantly.  When the hop liquor cools, so
    as to be just lukewarm, add a pint of new yeast, that has
    no salt in it.  Keep the beer covered in a
    temperate situation, till it has ceased fermenting, which is
    ascertained by the subsiding of the froth - turn it off
    carefully into a beer keg, or bottles.  The beer should not
    be corked very tight, or it will burst the bottles.  It
    should be kept in a cool place.

- -- 
Steve Piatz, Eagan Minnesota


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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:45:35 +0000
From: "Sasha von_Rottweil" <sasharina at hotmail.com>
Subject: Brewpubs in Vienna

Stan,
There are several good brew pubs in Vienna. The following link should help
you out:

http://bier.oesterreich.com/2001/documents/ilink/Gasthausbrauereien_Wien.shtml

I personally recommend Fischerbrau. They generally have have a Helles and a
darker beer on tap (during Dec they had a Christmas Bock) and a seasonal 
beer. Last fall they
had a 'hemp' beer.

Salm Brau is also a good place to go with at least three beers on tap. They
generally are a helles, a darker seasonal, and a Weizen if I remember
correctly.

Cheers,
Marty



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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 07:53:19 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: coffee roaster 

I believe that this message was lost in the server issue last week.  

Subsequently:
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
>Is  a 'Home Coffee Roasting Digest' possible  ?
Check out the newsgroup, alt.coffee.



I am a coffee roaster too, using a Precision from Home Innovations.  I also
started with a number of air popcorn poppers.  

Putting malt into the unit I use would be a SERIOUS fire hazard.  Malt
kernals are considerable smaller than green coffee beans and would fall
through the holes in the bottom of the roasting chamber and into the
heater.  The unit does blow considerable air, but I wouldn't trust that to
keep the malt from falling through.

Drum roasters may be safer than air roasters.

Everything Spenser said about home roasting coffee is true, so beware.  It
has become VERY difficult for me to drink anything but my own vacuum pot
brews.  I will occasionally have a ristretto from a real barista, but avoid
the watery and coffee flavored milk drinks most people think of as
"espresso".

My advice is to stick with canned coffee ...

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com




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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:22:18 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: purging the keg

All -

"S -" wrote re: what "Al" wrote:

>>>Al wrote:
"...If you're careful about sanitation and careful about the absolutely
essential task purging air from your carboys with co2  when you rack..."

How do you purge air from your carboy before racking?
 -Steve A<<<

Not sure what he means - maybe using CO2 to push with?  I would add the
recommendation to purge the headspace (in a keg) once you *have* racked.  At
least that's what I do....  Rack.  Pump 35 or so psi of CO2 into the little
bit of corny headspace.  Vent.  Repeat 4 or 5 times.  Leave the last pop of
CO2 in.  Voila!  Very very little to no O2.  Age away!

Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:42:21 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: sugar from beets

According to http://www.sucrose.com/learn.html, 30% of the sugar 
produced (in the world?) is from beets with 70% coming from cane.  The 
USDA estimated US production of sugar beets at almost 28 million tons 
for 2002, with 17% sugar content this means that 4.7 million tons of 
sugar was (potentially) produced from beets in the US in 2002. 
sucrose.com claims that the US produces 6.5 million tons of sugar, 
exporting almost none of it.  From those numbers we might infer that in 
fact over 1/2 the sugar produced in the US comes from beets. (This is 
true even if the "tons" on www.sucrose.com are metric tons.)

I know that most of the sugar on the shelf at my local grocery is beet 
sugar.  But then Michigan is 5th in the nation in production of sugar 
beets (according to Michigan State U, anyway: 
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/sugarbeets.html).

=S




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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:11:19 -0500
From: Chris Collier <CCollier at lanierclothes.com>
Subject: 11th Annual Peach State Brewoff

We are now accepting entries for the 11th Annual Peach State Brewoff in 
Atlanta, GA.  This AHA Sanctioned contest is the first in the 2004 
Mid-South Homebrewer/Club of the Year series.

The main Competition is Saturday Feb, 7 2004.  Currently, we are planning 
on having the it at the Max Lagers Brewery downtown, but we may 
have a last minute change of venue.  I should know this week, but wanted to 
go ahead and get the word out.

This is a 2 bottle competition and entry fee is $6 per entry.  Entry
deadline is 
Saturday entry January 1/24.

If interested in judging or stewarding, please let us know.  All the info
including 
forms, drop off locations, and schedule can be accessed on our website at:

http://www.coverthops.com/psbo/psbo2004.html

Chris Collier
Covert Hops Society
Atlanta, GA


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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:18:15 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: adding yeast at bottling, or not? Liquid or dry?

Robert, IF I have a high gravity beer (1.090+) and IF it spends an extended 
period of time in secondary (2+ months), I add yeast at bottling.  Between 
the gravity and length of time, it seems there's a pretty fair possibility 
that I won't have enough viable yeast to carbonate the beer.  It may not be 
necessary, but it couldn't hurt.  I usually use Danstar Nottingham, because 
it's so easy.  I just add it to the bottling bucket.  As to your corn sugar 
"tang", all I can say is that your taste buds must be WAY better than 
mine.  I've experimented with a number of priming agents and finally 
settled on corn sugar because it's easy, reliable, and flavor 
neutral.  There's so little used to prime a beer, I don't see how it could 
possibly have any effect on taste.

         ----------------->Denny

At 12:38 AM 1/12/04 -0500, you wrote:

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:22:47 -0800
>From: Robert Marshall <robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com>
>Subject: adding yeast at bottling, or not? Liquid or dry?
>
>Hi all,
>
>Since this is my first post after the New Year I wish wish everyone a
>most joyous year to come!
>
>I noticed someone posted a msg in the last couple of days where they
>said they always add dry yeast
>at bottling time and I wondered to myself how many brewers actually do
>that with their homebrew?
>
>The reason I ask is that I've noticed that many of my beers seem to take
>an innordinate amount of time
>to carbonate, and usually have a somewhat "tang" of corn sugar flavor
>(which is what I use to bottle
>condition).
>
>If you do use dry yeast, do you simply pour it in the beer prior to
>bottling, or do you reconsitute it in some
>sterile wort and then add it that way? If the latter, would it be more
>beneficial to use a liquid yeast rathr
>than a dry yeast? That way, I could also use the same strain as I brewed
>with.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Robert








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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:25:07 -0500
From: rdavis77 at erols.com
Subject: SLOWWWWW  attenuation

About 2 months ago I brewed a batch of a clone recipe of "Arrogant 
B*st*rd," one of my favorite commercial beers.  It's a simple all-grain 
recipe I found a few places on the Internet.  Anyway, I didn't have any 
yeast, except some good German Hefeweizen yeast, and thought that would 
make for an interesting flavor.  The yeast was fresh, and I aerated the 
cool wort for 30 seconds with pure oxygen before pitching.   Within a 12 
hours a vigorous ferment was evident.  I was excited to use my new 
"V-Vessel" conical fermenter and all looked well.  After a few days, 
when the ferment settled down, I removed the trub (using the bulb 
below...no racking needed with this system).  The ferment continued to 
bubble the bubble lock slowly for a week or so more.   Well, no,  its 
still  doing that  quite slowly (every  couple minutes or so) 2 MONTHS 
LATER! 

After about 2 weeks in the 2ndary ferment I moved the V-Vessel into my 
unheated basement (about 60 degrees).  Then I checked the gravity, about 
1.030.  The recipe calls for a 1.020 final grav., and I started out at 
about 1.070 OG.  So I moved the V-Vessel back to my closet keeping 
things at about 75 degrees.  Also, to try to get the stuff eaten more, I 
dumped in a jar of Ale yeast which my local Old Dominion brewery 
generously contributed.  (It's enough for 10 gallons at least).  Well it 
started to ferment more...and dang it, it still is now, just very 
slowly.  The gravity is down to 1.028 (woohoo)

Any suggestions on what's going on and what to do now?  (Is this 
something due to the conical???)


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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:09:28 -0500
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: HELP - Diagnosing Brew problems (Flavor / Aroma)

After reading and referencing what I consider to be a fair amount of brewing
literature, I am becoming frustrated as I search for that one good reference
that provides potential causes to brew problems, specifically flavor and
aroma. 
Plenty of documentation (detailed and summary) exists describing brew faults
and off flavors, but little documentation seems to exist that describes the
potential causes from a collective point.
Is there any literature devoted to diagnosing flavor problems in a
methodical manner, such as breaking down the potential problem causes into
subcategories related to the brewing process  (ingredients, mash, boil,
fermentation, conditioning, serving, equipment, etc)?
It would seem appropriate that fault documentation would be a big part of
the BJCP study guide (as judges are required to provide suggestions for
resolving even subtle issues), but the documentation doesn't appear to be
explicitly stated in any of the published study or reference materials.
I know there are numerous references that contain bits and pieces of off
flavor problem resolution material, but I'm looking for a dedicated source.
I also know that this topic can become complicated in that off flavors are
dependent on style, but I sure would love to be able to pick up one book
which is dedicated to the subject.  Any suggestions???
Thanks,
Mike.

Mike Rogers
Cass River Homebrewers    
Frankenmuth, Mi.
http://hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/ <http://hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers/>




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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:30:27 -0500
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: re: coffee, caffeine, home roasting !

yee hawwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just ordered my starter roaster from
Zach & Danis and can't wait for it to arrive. I would be very interested in
a coffee roasters digest ala the HBD. Maybe, HBD could host it? Just a
thought

Jim



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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:09:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Melanoidin malt in Pils


William asked for opinions on his PU pils recipe

Be aware you are adding a darker malt to the beer.  See the description
I found:

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/itm01411.htm

A little bit like the quarter pound mentioned, will probably be OK.  If
you haven't done it yest, I suggest running the recipe through a
calculator, paying attention to the color.  

After a second look at the recipe, I see you included light Munich malt
also.  I suspect the combination will make the beer rather dark.



=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:21:25 -0800 (PST)
From: b shockley <indythedog at yahoo.com>
Subject: stuck fermentation on a barley wine

I have a barley wine that I just brewed.  The starting
gravity was about 1.098,  I pitched Wyeast's London
1028 and after a vigorous fermentation, the poor guys
petered out at about 1.040.  I just repitched some
champagne yeast to take me down to my (hopeful) final
gravity of 1.012.  The problem is that the champagne
yeast have not taken off.  Could it be that there is
not enough oxygen for the new yeast to start their
reproduction?  What do I do

Sincerely

Stuck with an awfully sweet barley wine

Bill Shockley
Tacoma, WA



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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:47:31 -0600
From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Re: Canning jar starter/Canning clear wort

In HBD #4449 -S writes

| You certainly aren't going to make a starter in a canning jar, are you ?

After reading Don Van Valkenburgs comments on "why" use two containers for
your starter when the first is already sterile, I attempted to make the
starter in the canning jar. Using a 1/2 gallon canning jar w/ 1500 ml
sterile wort I  popped the lid, tossed in a stir bar and inoculated w/ yeast
of choice, placed on stir plate.  It worked. The stir bar works just fine in
the canning jar. I'm not worried about any break material in the starter
either.

Mark Kellums
Decatur Il.





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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:35:35 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Invert Sugar/Citrus-y flavor

Wes Smith writes of advantages of invert sugar over sucrose  ....

>Consider the
> kit brewer who buys a 1.8kg can of hopped malt and adds 1kg of cane sugar.
> That's a 36% cane sugar adjunct ratio.

Yes, look at him.  This guy obviously lacks brewing experience or he
wouldn't use 36% sugar.  He's likely to be equally ignorant of proper
sanitation and handling.  His/her kit certainly has sub-par instructions,
and there is every reason to suspect the quality of the LME and dried yeast
pack included.   What could cause odd flavors here ?   Low amino acid
concentration, low phosphate levels,  low levels of other nutrients, no
aeration or excessive aeration, oxidized Maillard products in stale LME, and
infection from the dried yeast or from inexperience and lack of
sanitization.    Blaming citrus flavors on the sucrose inversion step is not
inconcievable, but it's just one of many more likely possible causes.

> He
> made the point that today these same breweries use a range of syrup
> adjuncts including wheat starch derived maltose and maltodextrin syrups as
> well as dextrose syrups. The advent of "light" beers in Australia ("light"
> here means low alcohol - NOT low calorie!) demands hi levels of
> maltodextrin to balance off the lack of body in the 2.8 to 3.8% ABV brews.

It makes no sense to add maltodextrin to a beer intended as low-calorie -
you might as well ferment this extract to alcohol which is marginally less
calories.   *IF* you want to add dextinous body, then obviously you can't
get any from cane sugar and must use low DE syrups or purified maltodextrin.
That probably explains why dextrinous syrups are used (but they aren't
lo-cal) in place of no-dextrin cane sugar.

> But I digress - if cane sugar syrup would do the job, I'm sure these same
> breweries would not be using the more expensive starch derived adjuncts.

You are dead wrong about the costs.  Syrups from hydrolyzed starch are
significanly cheaper than cane sugar.  In the US they nearly fully hydrolyze
corn starch to glucose then they enzymatically convert much of the glucose
to fructose to make high fructose corn sweetner.   Coke and Pepsi  switched
to HFCS a couple(?) decades ago over here due to cost.  Making high DE corn
syrup is cheaper yet - bypasses the fructose step - that's why it would be
used in breweries.  Only water is cheaper than starch !

> And the old faithful tastebuds that have consistently "noticed" this
> citrusy effect in countless HB comp judgings?

Yes, citrusy flavors do appear in HB occasionally and they seem to be
associated with newbies making beer from cheesy kits.  I've actually tried
to produce these flavors by fermenting mixes with 50% and 100% sugars
(glucose, fructose and sucrose) and was unable to.  The 100% sugar mixes did
taste yeasty and a little cidery or winey but not citrus-like.  Cider-y
wine-y flavors are usually attributed to fusels, tho' esters may play.
Further - I have no evidence that sucrose is necessary to produce citrus
flavor - it's just what newbies are told to use.  Conclusion: Sucrose is not
sufficient and may not be necessary for citrus flavor.

As I said before, tests in chaptalized wine show no difference between the
flavor of adding sucrose v fructose or glucose.

> I cant quantify that
> "citrusy" effect other than to report it exist in countless HB beers.

Sad to hear it's "countless" in Oz.  I find it relatively rare these days
compared to when I began.   Maybe it's because my local shop, and all the
HBers I know insist newbies start with good yeast and instructions.  Yes you
can still buy Mr.Beer kits at the mall, but HB shop owners want newbies to
have a good first experience.

>Maybe they all used the same extract? I am impressed you have done some
> 'speriments on the components of sucrose - wish I had the time! (BTW where
> is Doc Pivo these days??)

Actually that experiment began from an offline discussion w/ Doc Pivo.
Pivo, last I heard, had a rather elaborate and plausible theory about how it
was the conversion of glucose and fructose to fructose-1-6-phosphate at the
beginning of digestion ties up phosphate, and because of the low
concentrations in the dilute media there is insufficient phosphate to
complete the conversion of citrate to oxoglutarate.  The citrate pools and
is released.   This is essentially the way citric acid was commercially
produced from Aspergillus fungi (top growth on phosphate reduced wort btw),
but yeast aren't very good at this.   Maybe dilute phosphate AND an
infection are involved in citrus flavor !

It's a great theory for citrus flavor, but like the other dozen I can spawn
in an hour - there is no evidence to support it and almost enough to reject
it outright.  It's all (including your yeast-guy's comments I trust)
mythology derived from unsubstantiated comments in homebrew books of the
1980s.  These d#mned myths get recyled till everyone believes them.   We
should make a list some day ...   Yeast cannabalize other cells in
autolysis - WRONG, rousing yeast reverses flocculation - WRONG, fermenter
shape is important to attenuation - NOT ON HB SCALE, sulfite kills wild
yeast leaving only brewing yeast - WRONG, brewing yeast can only handle 6-9%
ethanol - WRONG.  Don't even start me on "heat loading" or the guys who view
every bad fermentation as "yeast mutation".   It's a big list of
misinformation floating around in common HB use.   That citrus flavor
derives specifically from sucrose is not fully disproven, but I expect it
will be.  There was never any good evidence supporting it.

> But my Grain Chemist colleague also raised another
> factor - seems that Aussie cane sugar  - even the refined version, can
have
> all sorts of negative flavour compounds. He referred to the food industry
> and the variability that the growing seasons climatic conditions had on
the
> sugar cane.

(Oddly, I have relatives who grow cane near Mackay, Queensland - which makes
me no expert)  Half a planet away cane molasses often contains considerable
iron - enough to ruin beer outright.  I don't think it would be easy to
damage beer flavor with modest levels of refined sugar, but unrefined -
certainly ?

> Taste of invertase??

Hogwash !.   Yeast can invert 4P of sucrose in about 20 minutes after
pitching !  Really fast.  I've tested this myself using a diabetic meter to
measure the glucose concentration.  Anyway the inverted yeast mix tastes
yeasty and sweet but nothing more.  I've also tasted this same sample after
fermentation stopped (not fully attenuated) and it was less yeasty, less
sweet, alcoholic and a bit winey.   Same as the pure glucose and fructose
ferments.

Yeast invertase is a rather large protein - 250kDaltons or so.  As a rule
flavors are related to the relation and orientation of a few molecules or
groups separated by mere fractions of a nanometer.  The specific spacing and
orientation angles are key to flavor, probably aroma too.  Again as a rule
large polymeric structures like starch, protein and long chain fatty acids
have very low-key flavor unless they have some flavor active terminal
structure.   The usually have little or no aroma.   For a citrus flavor
detectable at low concentration you are almost certainly looking for a small
molecule under 3 kDalton and probably under 1kD; an organic acid, or short
chained oil or alcohol with attachments perhaps - almost certainly not a
250kD protein.

I wish there was a solid answer, but before we can get to that we need to be
able to reproduce the citrusy flavor reliably.   I have several samples of
ale yeast fermenting pure sucrose and half-malt extract + half sucrose
solutions with no citrusy flavors.  Sucrose inversion and fermentation and
high levels of sucrose adjunct are NOT sufficient to cause citrus flavor.
It's trivially easy to prove this to yourself next time you have a
tablespoon of clean active yeast slurry and some sterile table sugar around.

thanks Wes,
 -Steve




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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:09:24 -0500
From: "Jeffrey Rankert" <jrankert at msn.com>
Subject: Beet Sugar

To add to the Sugar discussion, if you look for sugars from Michigan 
companies, those sugars are beet sugar.  The bag of "Big Chief" sugar 
http://www.monitorsugar.com/I have downstairs is from Bay City, MI.  It has 
a small graphic of a sugar beet on the side.  Pioneer Sugar also is beet 
sugar.  I use these in my Belgian beers.

The Tate from Tate and Lyles Golden Syrup fame made a fortune in the sugar 
trade.  In London, the Tate British and Tate Modern Art Museums are from 
some of that furtune.  I use Golden Syrup in some of my Bitter recipes.

Jeff Rankert
Milford Mi - got to look up how far from Jeff in Rennerian (not far) 


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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:59:50 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: sugar from beets

Herr Doppelganger, =S writes ...

> According to http://www.sucrose.com/learn.html, 30% of the sugar
> produced (in the world?) is from beets with 70% coming from cane.  The
> USDA estimated US production of sugar beets at almost 28 million tons
> for 2002, with 17% sugar content this means that 4.7 million tons of
> sugar was (potentially) produced from beets in the US in 2002.

The USDA figure for 2002 is 4.23M tons ... a  low year, 2003 projected at
4.651Mtons close enough.

> sucrose.com claims that the US produces 6.5 million tons of sugar,
> exporting almost none of it.  From those numbers we might infer that in
> fact over 1/2 the sugar produced in the US comes from beets. (This is
> true even if the "tons" on www.sucrose.com are metric tons.)

Production is more like 8Mton in a typical year, but use of raw sugar is
around 9+m ton.   Obviously I underestimated the rapidly increasing amount
of beet sugar used in the US - it is over 50% of sugar production but ....
(see S&S 9.30.03 pdf)
http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/so/view.asp?f=specialty/sss-bb/
also
http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/sugar/Data/Table50.xls

This completely ignores the role of hydrolyzed starch sweeteners.  The US
beverage industry alone uses as much  HFCS extract as the entire US  market
for  sugar from beets and cane at  - abt 9.2M ton in 2002 !  In addition
more glucose & dextrose syrup derived from starch is used !  Beets are more
than half the *sugar*, but under a quarter of the total sweetener extract
used.  What is more we export loads of  sweeteners to carbo-rich countries
like Canada and Mexico.  Corn is the primary source of sugar in the US !

Per capita dry basis pounds in 2002, we in the US ate 63.2lbs of refined
beet and cane sugar and a total of 81.4 lbs of HFCS, dextrose and glucose
syrup extract.  Maple syrup and honey are in the noise.  The total has  been
dropping since 1999 btw.

World market price on refined sugar is around 10 cents a pound and is
increasingly driven by hydrolyzed starch prices.   Midwest market price for
beet sugar is 25 cents per pound - beet sugar is obviously non-economic and
exists entirely on subsidy and trade barrier in the US and Europe [if you
seek a pleasant pork-barrel farm subsidy - look about you].  High fructose
corn sweeteners are very competitive with cane and match world market
refined price; cheaper in any advanced grain exporting country.  The export
picture is rapidly shifting as world sources of syrup develop.

> I know that most of the sugar on the shelf at my local grocery is beet
> sugar.

I just checked the sack in the pantry, (quietly awaiting the fall of the
Atkin's regime), and it's labeled "pure CANE sugar".  I've certainly seen &
tasted beet sugar in packets, and I assume it exists in all sorts of
sweetening roles, but store shelf granulated ?  I'll have to check the local
grocery.  Sincere thanks for the update Spencer.  You always make me think.

 -S







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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:34:22 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Bottle Washer

As some of you might have been aware, my buddy and I have been working on
converting a portable dishwasher to a bottle washer. This past weekend, it
made its first run with great success.

I have put up some photos and text at

http://barleyment.neap.net/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album33

Just to add some information, it seems the dishwasher I acquired has a
problem with its hi-temp wash cycle. It will start, but it won't stop. Under
the category of documenting a bug and calling it a feature, this does give
me the option of extending the wash cycle for really filthy bottles. I'll
set the dishwasher for hi-temp, and it will continue to recirculate the soap
solution for as long as is necessary. Setting it back to normal allows the
cycle to then continue through the rinse and dry phases.

I used a fairly concentrated PBW solution for the tests. The wash cycle uses
about 2 gallons and I put 50 g of PBW into the detergent cup, about double
the strength I normally use for an extended soak clean. I'll continue to
play around with different cycles and detergent strengths to find the
minimum water and detergent levels that will still provide an effective
cleaning.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg



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