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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Schmidling Mill Motorized (46fleetmaster)
  RE: FW: Your message to McMaster-Carr ("Kent Fletcher")
  re: purging ("Jim Yeagley")
  Re: purging ("-S")
  Re: chilling wort and fermentation temp control (Scott Alfter)
  Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques (Denny Conn)
  Re: chilling wort and fermentation temp control ("Richard S. Sloan")
  Gose recipe? ("Richard S. Sloan")
  re. The message to McMaster-Carr ("Chad Stevens")
  keg purging ("Jay Spies")
  CO2 leaks (Calvin Perilloux)
  ?? ("Jay Spies")
  RE: purging (Leo Vitt)
  re: Yeast Washing/Osmotic Pressure ("-S")
  Seeking sponsors... (Pat Babcock)
  Re: uh-oh, ya got him started... (Wes Smith)
   (Jim Eberhardt)
  Visiting West Palm Beach Florida (Karen S Dohm)


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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:08:02 -0800
From: 46fleetmaster at techcpg.com
Subject: Schmidling Mill Motorized

You know, it's not that tough to motorize a mill with a cheap 1/4 - 1/3
motor from a place like harbor freight or Northern Equipment and a couple of
pulleys from your local ace hardware store and a leftover chunk of 2x6 and a
cheap v-belt and a light switch and a cheap little electric box and a bit of
leftover extension cord.

Ok, so maybe a Drill is easier, but just flipping a switch and being able to
use both hands for shoveling in the grain is pretty cool too!

Sincere,

Brent

Lone Unknown Brewing
Antioch, CA




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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:07:08 -0800
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: RE: FW: Your message to McMaster-Carr

Todd wrote: (to McMaster-Carr)
> I home-brew my own beer, and I am planning to assemble 
> a more efficient brewing system.  I need to go from a 
> 1/2 inch SS ball valve welded to a keg to 1/2 " ID 
> Norprene Beverage tubing.  I'm looking at Tri-Clamps. 
> I think I need a 1/2 male pipe adapter, a wing nut clamp,
> and a hose adapter.  I will probably use the 1/2x5/8x1/16 
> norprene tubing you sell. I don't see a 1/2 male pipe 
> adapter or hose adapter on your site.  Am I approaching 
> this correctly?

Todd, if you already have an NPT threaded ball valve on your keg, you would
just be wasting money to start connecting Tri-Clover fittings to it.  True
sanitary systems start with a ferule TIG welded to the vessel, then a
Tri-Clover sanitary ball or butterfly valve, etc.  You want to use 1/2" ID
tubing, just get a tubing adapter (1/2"MPT x 1/2" Barb) or maybe QD
fittings.  As John S. pointed out, you can't blame McMaster-Carr for not
having a clue what you need.  BTW, is homebrewing covered in AF Regs or
under the UCMJ?




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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:41:28 -0500
From: "Jim Yeagley" <jyeag at core.com>
Subject: re: purging

The fill and vent method sounds like it would work just fine, but I remember
reading somewhere on the net about a simpler method:  Fit your gas fitting
chuck to the beer out fitting on the cornie, then turn on the gas.  It was
explained that CO2 is heavier than O2, so all that would be left in the keg
after 30 seconds or so would be the CO2.  Then fill by  gravity or other
preferred method.

This made sense to me, since I remember reading the CO2 weight thing before
when referring to a protective layer of CO2 over the wort in the fermenter.
I think it might have been Mr. Wizard, but I could be wrong.

Jim Yeagley
Cleveland, OH



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:27:34 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: purging

Ron writes ... ,

[Burley method]
> This may be the best method, but it seems oh so wasteful of sanitizer
> and CO2, but then, if it makes better beer...............

I save and reuse sanitizer when I do this (tho' often I just fill & purge
several times).  Iodophor lasts pretty well in a topped up carboy.   It also
uses 20L of CO2 rather than the 11.66L of the 5 purging cycles to 35psi -
not a vast difference.

> On the topic of O2 contamination, let me ask a question:
>
>  I have noticed that when my CO2 cylinder valve is closed, and the
> outlet valve after the regulator is closed, that in a few hours all
> the pressure is gone in the gas  hose.  [...] Has anyone else noticed
> this effect? If so, could it make a difference as far as O2 getting into
> the keg. I don't think this is a leak, could it be diffusion?

Mine seems to take a longer than yours - maybe a day - to lose positive
pressure, but yeah - you don't know what's in the tubing.  I strongly
suspect it's milli-leaks at the joints and not diffusion.  I do a tubing
purge like you.  Actually I keep a male corny  connector around just for
this.




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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:51:28 -0800
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Re: chilling wort and fermentation temp control

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 at 13:18:43 +0200,
"Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com> wrote:
> The town where I live is very hot during summer. 
> Sometimes more than 40C(104F) 
> I have huge problems with chilling my wort and controlling 
> fermentation temperature. I tried counterflow chillers and immersion 
> chillers. 
> 
> I am thinking of buying a deep-freezer and place a container full of 
> food-grade glycol into it. Then, when I want to chill my wort, I will
> pump the glycol (-20C or -4F) through an immersion chiller inside the 
> boiling wort. Do you think it is feasible or will I need too much 
> cold liquid. I guess I can do some calculations. 
> Will have to look at my physics books, 'sigh'

It gets pretty toasty here in Las Vegas, too.  What I have seen done is to
fill a large plastic tub (or maybe just a sink) with ice and water and use a
swamp-cooler pump to pull water out of the tub and push it through an
immersion chiller.  You do this after running tap water through the chiller
to take the temperature down from boiling to maybe 90-110 degrees or so. 
When the temperature drop becomes more gradual, you switch to the icewater. 
Even in the middle of summer, you can get your wort into the 60s or 70s that
way.  It's not that expensive, either...the pump costs only $20 or so.

  _/_   Scott Alfter ($firstname at $lastname.us)
 / v \  http://alfter.us/
(IIGS(  Southern Nevada Ale Fermenters Union - http://snafu.alfter.us/
 \_^_/  Beer and Loafing in Las Vegas - http://www.beerandloafing.org/



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:09:53 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques

I started culturing yeast on plates and slants a few years ago with 
supplies from Brewer's Resource.  It made it really easy since I could get 
pre-poured slants and plates.  Brewer's Resource is long gone now, and I've 
used up my supplies, so I guess it's time to break down and learn how to 
pour my own.  I have some questions that I'm hoping someone can answer...

1.) I remember reading somewhere (here?) that the medium in the plates and 
slants is a combination of agar and DME.  Is this correct?  What's the 
"recipe"?
2.) Do I need a pressure cooker?  Autoclave (hope not!).  What's the 
technique for filling plates and slants?
3.) Where do you buy the blanks and other stuff?
4.) What do I need to know that I don't know I need to know?

Thanks for any help!

	--------------->Denny



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:12:42 -0800
From: "Richard S. Sloan" <rssloan at household.com>
Subject: Re: chilling wort and fermentation temp control

>>I have huge problems with chilling my wort and controlling
>>fermentation temperature. I tried counterflow chillers and immersion
>>chillers.

You can make a simple pre-chiller with a good sized (20L) plastic bucket
and another immersion chiller. Just put the new immersion chiller in the
bucket and fill with ice water. Put this between your water source and your
wort chiller. It should chill your incoming water enough to help speed up
your temp drop. Another important tip is to keep the wort moving around
your immersion chiller. If you can, get a good whirlpool going when you are
chilling. This will keep the hot wort moving around the chilling coil,
improving efficiency and the whirlpool will help collect the trub in the
center of the pot for when you are ready to transfer.

When it comes to keeping my fermentor at a steady temp I use a simple water
bath and small fan. I have a plastic laundry tub my fermentor sits in. I
partially fill the tub with water and wrap a towel around the carboy. The
towel wicks up the water and helps cool the carboy through evaporation. I
place a small fan to blow air across the whole setup increasing the heat
transfer.

Richard Sloan
brewing in San Diego, CA
http://beeradvocate.com/user/profile/xlperro/





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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:15:21 -0800
From: "Richard S. Sloan" <rssloan at household.com>
Subject: Gose recipe?

I recently had my first taste of Gose. I enjoyed it quite a bit and want to
brew it up for the summer. Does anyone have a good homebrew recipe or tips
for this style?

Richard Sloan
brewing in San Diego, CA
http://beeradvocate.com/user/profile/xlperro/




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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:39:25 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: re. The message to McMaster-Carr

I don't have the address from your original message, but if I remember
correctly it ended in .mil.  While alcohol is legal in Qatar, possession of
any alcoholic beverage by a member of the military in theater is subject to
UCMJ punishment.  Your tech rep responding from a .mil address doesn't want
to have anything to do with it.  I think.

There have been more than a few soldiers/sailors who have gotten into sticky
places as a result of their jungle juice production.  And I don't mean from
boil-overs.


Chad Stevens
San Diego



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:28:39 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: keg purging

Jesse Stricker Sez :

>>>I've regularly kegged beers for nine months using this technique and not
found obvious oxidation flaws. You might want to be more careful with beers
you were planning on aging for several years, but I'm guessing that less
than 2% of the beer
brewed by readers of this list falls into that category.<<<

I second that thought...  I'm lucky if mine stays in the keg for 9 weeks
much less nine months.  I have found (and several friends of mine who are in
the pro brewery business have also expressed the opinion) that if your beer
will be stored cold throughout its life, consumed somewhat quickly, and
begins its life without obvious flaws, a smidgen of O2 pickup is far from
the worst thing that can happen to it.  Granted, I'm not a proponent of
splashing the beer hither and yon while kegging, but neither do I really
fret about what PPM level of O2 I may have in the beer.  If and when I get
offensive or noticeable oxidative/stale/cardboardy flavors, I will
re-examine my kegging procedures.  Otherwise, I'm going to make my life
easier, not harder.

This is just my .02.  YMMV.  If you love to fill kegs with sanitizer and
blow out every iota of O2 with CO2, have at it!  Each of us has aspects of
the hobby that we find fun, and that's why we still scrape out the mashtun
with a smile.  Hopefully newbies reading this forum will not think their
"beer is ruined" should they not have a Zahm & Nagel headspace testing
machine, or some such nonsense.  Charlie P has dispensed some questionable
advice over the years, but the propagation of his mantra, RDWHAHB, is still
the one of best things I think he has ever done for the hobby.

Dismount Soapbox!

Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:29:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: CO2 leaks

Ron LaBorde reports in HDB:

>> I have noticed that when my CO2 cylinder valve is closed, 
>> and the outlet valve after the regulator is closed, that 
>> in a few hours all the pressure is gone in the gas hose.
>> ... Has anyone else noticed this effect? If so, could it make a
>> difference as far as O2 getting into the keg. I don't think this 
>> is a leak, could it be diffusion?

Diffusion?  Through the metal regulator parts?  Nah.  Through
the gas tubing?  Unlikely unless you have some really dodgy
and completely inappropriate tubing in that application. 

My money is on:  Leak!  

Of my two regulator assemblies, with the tank valve closed, 
one loses pressure over a matter of days; the other goes weeks 
and weeks with no apparent loss.  Something's leaking on my 
first one, though not enough IMO to worry about losing gas.  
But if I were losing all pressure in just a few hours, 
I might then think about [the cost of] lost CO2 over weeks 
if I forgot and left the tank valve open.

Should I concern myself with O2 in the line, though?  I kind of 
doubt it.  Such a minor pinhole leak (NOT diffusion) probably
requires positive pressure to even move this obviously small 
amount of gas.  Caveat:  I admit, I was at the pub and missed 
that session of engineering class covering gas flow in apertures 
versus permeable diaphragms.  Surely there are others out there 
who calculate this every day, though, right?  ;-)

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:37:47 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: ??

Mike Sullivan Sez :

>>>I recieved deluxarty star, a box of co2 and a 5 liter mini keg for
christmas.<<<

Mike, what is a deluxarty star?

That might help us with your question.  Also, minikegs are not the best
vessels to keg beer in.  They leak for a living, and eat CO2 cartridges for
lunch.  Regardless of what a deluxarty star might be, if you're serious
about kegging beer I'd get a corny keg system and a proper regulator/CO2
tank.  The expense will eventually be offset by not having to buy cases of
CO2 cartridges...

Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:17:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: purging


>A  workable alternative is Dave Burley's suggestion to fill every
ioto of
>sealed keg volume with no-rinse sanitizer and blow this out with CO2.
Then
>fill the keg w/ beer  thru the connection port w/ CO2 pressure.
This keeps
>transfer and headspace O2 very low.

Question:  HOW do you get that last tiny bit of air out of the keg?

I am assumeing you are filling the corny keg with the lid off.   Even
if I fill to the brim, I belieive there will be a bit of air trapped
unnder the lid when I insert the lid.

I also have a doubt you are getting every bit if the no rinse sanitizer
out, the way an inverted keg without its lid does.

Next question:  Which is a bigger problem;  A tiny bit of air, or a
tiny bit of sanitizer mixed into the beer?



=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:58:37 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Yeast Washing/Osmotic Pressure

Travis Dahl asks,

>So for the microbiology geeks in the crowd:
Not a biologist but ...

>  Can osmotic pressure differences harm yeast.
Yes, obviously.

Some basics [ref "Microbial Water Stress Technology", A.D.Brown].

the concept of osmotic pressure in biological systems is confusing and at
least a bit of that confusion begins with it's calculation.   First we need
to consider "Water Activity" (Aw).   Water activity is literally the mole
fraction of water in a solution.  A kilogram of water (a liter more or less)
at a MW of 18 contains 55.51 moles.   If we have a 1 molal solution of some
non-electrolyte solute then the water activity is just:

    Aw =  55.51 / (55.51 + 1) = 0.9823

I can understand that this solution comes to equilibrium with air at 98.23%
relative humidity.   I have a little harder time understanding it's exact
meaning at the biological membrane level ... I'll leave that to a real
biologist.

In any case Aw of pure water is 1.00 and drops toward zero as more solute is
dissolved in the water.  Microorganisms dislike low Aw environments.   Most
will tolerate Aw from 1.00 to 0.95 without much trouble.  Many fail below
0.95.   Fungi fair better and many tolerate 0.90,  brewing & wine yeast to
about 0.88.  A few rare species will tolerate lower Aw.  Salt loving
halobacteria tolerate 0.75, Xeromyces and Saccharomyces rouxii to a stunning
0.60.

Anyway leaving the development of water potential for another day, the
result is that
the change in water potential from pure water to solute is:

Pw = RT ln (Aw) / Vw  = 1380* ln(Aw) bars = 19960 * ln(Aw) psi

For a 100milli-mole solution of an electrolyte salt (both ions count) we
have about 4.1bar or 60psi of osmotic pressure possible.  For 1 molar
solution of a salt this translates to about 47bar or 680 psi of pressure.
About half that for a 1 molal solution of the non-electrolyte sugars.  I say
"about" because I am playing hookey with the several percent (more for
sugar) difference between molar and molal solutions in this range.

===

Now that we can convert from molal concentrations to actual pressure values
life, becomes complicated again.  The IDEAL membrane which is discussed in
terms of osmotic pressure allows water through but not any solutes or ions.
This would make a great RO water device but it would make a lousy cell
membrane.  Yeast cell membranes allow glucose and fructose to passively
transport thru the cell walls - so these solute ions do not contribute to
the osmotic pressure at all.   Initially maltose and maltotriose (and all
higher dextrins ) cannot transport, but eventually as ACTIVE transport of
maltose etc begins it's pressure contribution drops.  Glycerin apparently
passively permeates.  Membranes are (mostly) impermeable to ethanol and
fusels.   Salts are a different story.  Yeast and other micros actively try
to maintain the proper K and Na content and will pump these ions in or out
to maintain balance.   We must examine these internal vs external
concentrations to understand the cell membrane pressures involved.  Like
partial pressures of gasses like ions and solutes balance each other.
Calcium ion pressure from gypsum or water source in the wort pushes against
the yeast cell, but is not nulled, except mechanically, but outward pressure
due to intra-cellular K and Na ions.

 ...

Oh well - I *somewhere* have figures on intracellular ion concentrations,
and they are pretty high, but I can't find these at the moment.  The
internal yeast cell pressure (turgor) varies from around 30psi in stationary
phase down to 7psi in log(exponential) growth phase.   Mostly from K and Na
ions and their matching electrolytes.

Still the point is this.  Distilled water is the reference and has 0
pressure on the scale (distilled is the 0 pt reference).  Burton water has
about 20-25 millimoles of ions and so applies an osmotic pressure around
9psi.   The internal pressure from dissimilar ions forms a much greater
internal pressure than this minor external force.  The water ions from
minerals or lack thereof probably are insignificant against the 350+mMol of
non-permeable sugars and dextrins in wort or the 900mMol of ethanol in beer.
[[Note every Mol of maltose fermented produces 4 moles of ethanol - and a
huge attendant increase in OS-pressure]].

> Specifically, if someone  was to use RO/distilled water to
> wash their yeast, would this significantly affect yeast viability?

As compared to Burton water ?  No.  It's like 9psi difference in cells that
will handle 300+  psi and probably 400psi in finished beer.  The change is
that the external non-permeables in beer will go from pushing the cell
membrane inward with the mechanical differential of say 350psi minus the
cell internal 30psi. in distilled water the pressure is just the 30psi of
the internal cell solute pushing outward.

>Could it cause the yeast to actually autolyse?

Yes, but not due to pressure.  Exposing yeast to oxygen during washing
causes them to burn off glycogen stores and some trehalose to make sterols
from squalene.  This reduces the storage life of stored yeast after exposure
to oxygen.   Also after water washing (and maybe storage) you *may* get
shock excretion.  As you pitch the cells into fresh wort w/ higher
os-pressure they upchuck amino and keto acids and it's a while before they
feel better.  Some die no doubt.

> I'm partially curious, partially trying to track down what might have
>gone wrong with a previous brew that didn't ferment out enough.

Not fermenting out enough is almost always due to pitching unhealthy yeast,
pitching too little yeast , failure to provide nutrients or failure to
provide oxygen.   Normally yeast can take a big gulp of air and survive
maybe 3 generarions or a little longer in anaerobic conditions.  If you
don't pitch enough yeast the ferment won't have finished by the time the
yeast stop growing (and stop fast fermentation).  It you've pitched enough
yeast, then something must have prevented them from undergoing the 3 or so
reproductive cycles before hitting a growth limit.  *Usually* that's oxygen
and lipids stopping the progress, but it can be other things.   Using yeast
with insufficient oxygen+glycogen+squalene(else sterol) reserves .. for
example yeast from a previous hi-grav batch may lack glycogen and have
difficulty.  Sometime yeast will want extra amino acids for osmotolerance to
finish hi-grav ferments.  Lack of minor yeast nutriles and mineral
co-factors can make yeast stop too.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:24:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Seeking sponsors...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...


Folks, 

None of the HBD's sponsors have returned this year (Promash
renews in June - they're still with us). Notifications were sent
to all those who were sponsors, but no-one has renewed - most
haven't even responded to my emails. 

In any case, the future of the HBD is at risk. In the past, I
have been able to float the HBD when its funding has dropped to
zero. Certain recent life changes preclude me from doing so now.

Please, folks, this is critical: funding is currently less than
the cost of 12 months connectivity. Help the HBD find at least
one top-level sponsor. I know the economy is less than inspiring
at the moment, but there are many national mail-order hom
brewing concerns who could benefit from having their banner at
the head of the Brewery, Brews & Views or at the top of the
daily HBD. If you are a frequent customer of one of these
shops, you might suggest that they look into sponsoring the
HBD. I would appreciate it, as would all of the users of the
varied services hosted by the HBD network. Sponsorship details
can be seen at HBD Sponsorship Page. There are many options for
major sponsorship, and selling any one of them sustains the HBD
for a year.

Thanks - I now return you to your regularly scheduled
conversations.


- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:09:34 +1100
From: Wes Smith <wsmith at rslcom.net.au>
Subject: Re: uh-oh, ya got him started...

Steve Alexander wrote -

> >Steve's reply on this matter reminds of a Brad Garrett story
>  ...
> >"Sir, the last thing you
> >want is my undivided attention".
>
>Hope it didn't come across that threatening, and apologies to Wes if I did.

Certainly no offense taken here Steve, in fact this thread has had a very 
healthy spin off in causing me to go and do some extra homework. But just 
before you get the old comfy slippers back on and settle into that old 
favourite armchair, I have some more input.

First up some housekeeping -
>It makes no sense to add maltodextrin to a beer intended as low-calorie -
>you might as well ferment this extract to alcohol which is marginally less
>calories.   *IF* you want to add dextinous body, then obviously you can't
>get any from cane sugar and must use low DE syrups or purified maltodextrin.
>That probably explains why dextrinous syrups are used (but they aren't
>lo-cal) in place of no-dextrin cane sugar

I did stress the point that "light" beers in Australia are LOW alcohol, NOT 
low calorie and do need something to boost the body/mouthfeel hence the use 
of a maltodextrin syrup. I'm not sure you picked me up correctly on that point.

>Stating that some yeast professional
>supports the standard HB momily about sucrose producing citrus doesn't
>answer any questions but it does drive the unsupported myth farther down the
>road.  Sorry - but I want to bop that weasel.

I wasn't quoting some unnamed yeast professional - rather I was hoping that 
someone from White Labs or Wyeast might chime in with their thoughts on the 
issue.

But that said, I was able to speak to a yeast professional at one of our 
larger brewing groups about the issue of invertase in sucrose fermentation. 
As the Chief Scientist in charge of all fermentation issues for their 
brewing group, he had some interesting input. First up he confirmed they 
use starch derived dextrose, maltose and maltodextrin syrups along with 
some sucrose syrup from sugar cane. The ratios of use depend on the beer 
style and the seasonal commodity pricing of the various ingredients - 
including malted barley. He stated all yeast cells contain invertase, 
however the quantity of invertase varied greatly between strains (of 
yeast). In the 36% sucrose ferment scenario he said there would be 
insufficient invertase to invert the sucrose and the yeast would have to go 
off and produce the necessary extra invertase to "complete" the job. We 
discussed the optimal conditions for invertase and confirmed my belief that 
pH 4.5 and 50C were the ideal - certainly not a very healthy temperature 
for a brewing yeast! He did make a strong point that "if" his company were 
to look at a high sucrose ferment, he would not want the yeast to be 
producing the necessary invertase. Why? Because of the off flavours that 
could result. Was he familiar with the "citrisy" effect - Yes, but could 
not tell me the chemical cause. He also had some interesting anecdotal 
tales from some of the "older brewers" who claim they can still tell when 
the sucrose/glucose balance has been changed.

>You are dead wrong about the costs.  Syrups from hydrolyzed starch are
>significanly cheaper than cane sugar.

Sorry Steve, but I am dead right about the costs. I am talking about the 
Aussie market - you are talking about the US market and they are not the 
same. All starch derived brewing adjuncts in Australia are produced from 
WHEAT starch which in turn is pegged to the seasonal wheat price. The 
starch industry is monopolised by a single company operating (for brewing 
adjuncts) from a single east coast location and their pricing has, as you 
would expect taken advantage of that situation. The sugar industry is based 
primarily in Queensland and has produced a syrup product that used to be 
cheaper than malted barley, but is now at best, line ball. Talk to the 
brewer and he will tell you that there is no cost advantage today in using 
sucrose syrup over malt even if he could, and the starch derived adjuncts 
are an essential anyway, simply to maintain the existing beer product 
profile. The starch manufacturer will tell you that they have up to a 20% 
price margin over malt but that does not take into account the logistics, 
handling and storage costs and capital equipment involved. Talk to the 
maltster and he will tell you that they have a major cost advantage over 
the adjunct suppliers. There are 19 malting plants in Australia, 9 of them 
in the group we represent. These plants are strategically located in each 
state to be able to service the various state based breweries. There is no 
way adjunct suppliers can compete when they have to haul their product from 
one side of the country to the other, or even across Bass Straight to 
Tasmania to service the 2 breweries there. So the aggregate "cost" pecking 
order in Australia is water, malt then sucrose = starch adjunct.

Been an interesting debate - lets hope we can find the scientific 
explanation to this "citrusy effect". In the meantime I will still be using 
my Trimoline invert syrup for my beloved Saison. Oh, one good side benefit 
to all of this - I located a surplus quantity of invert syrup that we might 
just put into stock...

Wes.  




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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:54:04 -0600
From: Jim Eberhardt <jim at jacysplace.com>
Subject: 



First time poster, long time fan....

As I'm about to venture into counterpressure filling, I find myself 
thinking about oxygenation. And after Steve's comment:

> even exposing the beer surface to air will cause more O2 pickup
> in the beer than is commercially acceptable

I'm now a little concerned. I realize of course that purging with CO2 
prior to bottling clears the bottle of O2, but what about afterwards? 
When the filler is removed, the newly-created headspace will be air, 
not CO2. So, if I'm concerned about long-term storage (and I am), the 
question is this: is this a valid concern, or is it too little O2 to 
matter (and I'm worrying about nothing)?

Would oxygen-absorbing bottlecaps do the trick??

Thanks,
Jim
Wichita, KS



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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:17:33 -0800
From: Karen S Dohm <dohmfamily at juno.com>
Subject: Visiting West Palm Beach Florida

We will be in West Palm Beach, Florida next week starting January 21st. 
Wanted to know any area hot spots for Microbreweries or Pubs in West
Palm, or either north, south, or west on I-95. 
 We know of Brewzzi's in Boca and of course we know about Hops Pubs.
Looking for some thing new that might of popped up last year and is still
in business.  Road trips are welcome.  We heard of a new brewery in
Spring Hill, but do not know the name or the address.  Can anyone give us
a recommendation? 
Steven Dohm 
dohmfamily at juno.com


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