---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Your Company Name and Contact Info Here!
  Visit http://hbd.org/sponsorhbd_table.shtml for more info!

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  re: FW: Your message to McMaster-Carr (John Schnupp)
  RE: Schmidling Mill Motorized (Bill Tobler)
  chilling wort and fermentation temp control ("Braam Greyling")
  Re: Beet Sugar vs Cane Sugar ("Zemo")
  RE: purging ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re: uh-oh, ya got him started... ("-S")
  Boston Homebrew Competition (Andrew Walsh)
  re: purging (Jesse Stricker)
  Re: Beet Sugar vs Cane Sugar (bob.devine)
  Re: Of barrels and beer (Michael)
  cane vs beet sugar (Ed Jones)
  Party star delux junk? ("mike sullivan")
  Calculating gravities in a parti-gyle double mash (Christopher Swingley)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:26:19 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: FW: Your message to McMaster-Carr

From: "Weaver Joseph T MAJ CENTAF-AUAB CAOC\\SG"
>Not the response I expected based on several posts from the HBD Archives
>regarding McMaster-Carr customer service.  I thought this was a pretty
>straightforward question. 

<snip the McMaster-Carr reply>

and the question that started it all
>I home-brew my own beer, and I am planning to assemble a more efficient
>brewing system.  I need to go from a 1/2 inch SS ball valve welded to a
>keg to 1/2 " ID Norprene Beverage tubing.  I'm looking at Tri-Clamps.  I
>think I need a 1/2 male pipe adapter, a wing nut clamp, and a hose
>adapter.  I will probably use the 1/2x5/8x1/16 norprene tubing you sell.
>I don't see a 1/2 male pipe adapter or hose adapter on your site.  Am I
>approaching this correctly?

It's my opinion that you didn't ask the right question(s) and/or use the best
wording.  The customer service guy probably doesn't care one iota about
homebrew beer, in fact he might even think it is illegal.  So strike one.  Then
it sounds like, to me anyway, you are asking him to help you engineer your
project.  It sounds like you are not quite sure about what you need to begin
with.  So strike two.  Finally, I don't see any references to part numbers. 
Without the guy knowing what parts you were looking at, it is difficult for him
to offer input.  Strike three, your out.  

I think I know what you are trying to do but even so it is difficult for me to
know exactly what fittings you have in mind.  I went to their site and landed
on the Pipe and Pipe Fittings/Stainless Steel Pipe Fittings and Pipe page
within a minute.  The have pictures of the various types of connectors.  What
you are calling 1/2 male pipe adapter, is probably what is called a nipple. 
You also need more information than 1/2.  Exactly 1/2 of what?  I guessing that
you meant 1/2" NPT, which specifies the thread size and type.  Next I searched
on tri-clamp and landed on page 152.  In about the center of the page they have
a nice picture (click on it to make it bigger) that is a NPT x tri-clamp
adapter.  The problem is that the smallest NPT size is too big for your valve
so you need an adapter.  So back to the pipe fittings page and you can find an
adapter.  So on and so forth.  

There really is a little bit of leg work involved.  I just spent about 20
minutes looking around on the site for the various bits and pieces I _think_
that you might need.  The customer service guy probably had a bunch of other
questions waiting for him and he wasn't going to take the time to do the
research.  

One final thought, I was looking at the cost of SS and WOW $$$.  IMO, I think
your money might be better ROI'ed in other areas of your home brewery.  For you
to get the bites and pieces you need, I'll bet you spend +$300, and this is
just for the pieces for one connection, now if you need another one at the
other end of the hose double it.

Good luck,

 

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:39:02 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Schmidling Mill Motorized

Dana,
  You're right, it doesn't need to be that fancy.  I'm not sure you're
cordless has enough guts thou.  I tried my 3/8" electric drill and it had a
hard time of it.  I bought a 1/2" drill from Lowes for $50 and it works
great.  I also use it to stir the mash using a paint mixer.   Some pictures
attached.  Cheers!!

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:18:43 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: chilling wort and fermentation temp control

Hi all,

Just returned from holiday, happy new year to all!

The town where I live is very hot during summer. 
Sometimes more than 40C(104F) 
I have huge problems with chilling my wort and controlling 
fermentation temperature. I tried counterflow chillers and immersion 
chillers. 

I am thinking of buying a deep-freezer and place a container full of 
food-grade glycol into it. Then, when I want to chill my wort, I will
pump the glycol (-20C or -4F) through an immersion chiller inside the 
boiling wort. Do you think it is feasible or will I need too much 
cold liquid. I guess I can do some calculations. 
Will have to look at my physics books, 'sigh'

I am sure this will work for temperature controlling if I use an 
aquarium pump and temp controller. Im just worried Ill need too 
much liquid for chilling wort from 100C(212F) to 20C(68F) degrees 
for yeast pitching. I would like to be able to chill the wort within 
30minutes max. This is to save time on my brewing day. 
My batch size is approx 50litre or 11 gallons.

Any thoughts , ideas ? 


Thanks
Braam
Paarl - South Africa





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:02:50 -0600
From: "Zemo" <zemo at buyvictory.com>
Subject: Re: Beet Sugar vs Cane Sugar

Sven Pfitt lamented:

> I've not been able to find any dry sugar in the local 
> stores that specifically states that it is beet sugar.

A local brewpub gets big (30?50? lb) bags of sugar for
the kitchen from the local restaurant distributor. I don't
recall the brand, at least it wasn't a familiar name, but it
was very clearly labelled "BEET SUGAR".
I always carry a box of gallon storage bags in my truck-
just in case...

Zemo
[203.6, 263.9] Renns



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:36:38 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: purging

>From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
>
>Right, but I *VERY* seriously doubt anyone loads, mixes, vents like
this 5
>times,


Huh, that's what I have been doing every time!


>A  workable alternative is Dave Burley's suggestion to fill every
ioto of
>sealed keg volume with no-rinse sanitizer and blow this out with CO2.
Then
>fill the keg w/ beer  thru the connection port w/ CO2 pressure.
This keeps
>transfer and headspace O2 very low.

This may be the best method, but it seems oh so wasteful of sanitizer
and CO2, but then, if it makes better beer...............


On the topic of O2 contamination, let me ask a question:

 I have noticed that when my CO2 cylinder valve is closed, and the
outlet valve after the regulator is closed, that in a few hours all
the pressure is gone in the gas  hose.  So when I want to charge up
the keg, I actually go to the trouble of depressing the quick connect
pin to purge any air that may be in the line(after I re-open the
valves). Has anyone else noticed this effect? If so, could it make a
difference as far as O2 getting into the keg. I don't think this is a
leak, could it be diffusion?

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:58:54 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: uh-oh, ya got him started...

Brian Lundeen says,

>Steve's reply on this matter reminds of a Brad Garrett story
 ...
>"Sir, the last thing you
>want is my undivided attention".

Hope it didn't come across that threatening, and apologies to Wes if I did.

There are a handful of long standing mysteries in HB.  One is the source of
the citrus flavor. [ /why underfilled bottles overcarbonate and vise-versa.
/why yeast viability and maltotriose uptake are so variable in practice.
/what is the true relationship between pH, temps and phenolic extraction
 ... ].  We all rely on the (logically fallacious) argumentum ad
verecundiam - an argument based on "authority" at times but such arguments
only raise additional  questions.  Stating that some yeast professional
supports the standard HB momily about sucrose producing citrus doesn't
answer any questions but it does drive the unsupported myth farther down the
road.  Sorry - but I want to bop that weasel.

I've been interested in what causes the citrus flavor, and had discussions
w/ Doc Pivo, Andy Walsh, Al Korzonas and others over a period of a decade+.
I'd love to hear that someone cracked this mystery, but repeating the
standard rumors with no additional information is a disservice no matter who
claims this to be true.

 -Steve




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:36:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Andrew Walsh <awalsh at cfa.harvard.edu>
Subject: Boston Homebrew Competition



Announcing the Boston Homebrew Competition, Feb 7th at Watch City
Brewing Company Waltham MA.

Entry deadline is Friday 1/23. For more information see our web site
http://www.wort.org/BHC/bhc.html or contact Jim Dexter p#978-266-1470.

Later. Andrew xxx


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:03:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu>
Subject: re: purging


On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Steve Alexander writes:

> Jay Spies correctly notes ....
>
> >Rack.  Pump 35 or so psi of CO2 into the little
> >bit of corny headspace.  Vent.  Repeat 4 or 5 times.  Leave the last pop of
> >CO2 in.  Voila!  Very very little to no O2.  Age away!
>
> Right, but I *VERY* seriously doubt anyone loads, mixes, vents like this 5
> times, and even exposing the beer surface to air will cause more O2 pickup
> in the beer than is commercially acceptable...

	I do.  I imagine many other people do.  It's quick and dirt
simple.  Run beer into keg, being somewhat careful not to froth it up.
Fill to 5 gallons (leaves about 3 inches headspace).  Cap the keg, blow it
up to 30-35 psi to seat the lid.  Release pressure.  Repeat 5-10 times.
Takes maybe two or three minutes.  The hissing pressure startles the dogs,
and you might blow a little bit of aerosolized beer out, so cover the keg
with a towel.

	By your own calculations (which I have no intentions of arguing
with), 5 cycles can do the trick, and it's quick.  Filling kegs with
no-rinse sanitizer and blowing it out would work as well, and might not be
much more complicated, but I like simple things.  I've regularly kegged
beers for nine months using this technique and not found obvious oxidation
flaws.  You might want to be more careful with beers you were planning on
aging for several years, but I'm guessing that less than 2% of the beer
brewed by readers of this list falls into that category.  It might not be
commercially acceptable, but I'm not planning on shipping my beer on big
trucks across the country and storing it in unheated warehouses.

	Jesse Stricker (Durham, NC)

- --
	Jesse Stricker				jds19 at acpub.duke.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:39:44 +0000
From: bob.devine at att.net
Subject: Re: Beet Sugar vs Cane Sugar

Sven Pfitt wrote:
> In the previous postings it was stated that about half the sugar in the US 
> is beet sugar.
> 
> I've not been able to find any dry sugar in the local stores that 
> specifically states that it is beet sugar.

That may because beet sugar is not as highly regarded as cane sugar.

Anyone who lives near a sugar beet growing area (for trivia, look
for high school that have "beetdiggers" or "diggers" as their team
sports name!) will tell you that, until it is refined, beet sugar
is not very palatable.  On the other hand, cane sugar is tasty.
You can even find pieces of sugar cane in grocery stores to munch.
Molasses for human consumption comes (mainly) from sugarcane but
the molasses from refining beets is not wasted, besides feeding
livestock, it can also be used to grow the yeast for brewing!

I wrote an article about sugar in beer years ago and submitted it
to "Brewing Techniques" but it was never published.  You can try
brewing with nearly all sugars for an interesting twist on your
basic recipes.  For example, use caramelly sugars like golden
syrups (Lyle's is a good brand) in ambers, molasses in winter
spiced beers, white sugar in some Belgian and British beers, etc.

Avoid powdered sugar as it contains constarch, grocery store
corn syrup which can have salt and vanilla added, and some of
the unrefined sugars (such as piloncillo) unless you boil it.

Bob Devine


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:40:54 -0600
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Re: Of barrels and beer

* Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> [040104 15:55] wrote:
> Michael Grice kindly responds,
> 
> >Steve, you're making the assumption that all oxidation is bad. In
> >wine, low amounts of controlled oxidation seem to be beneficial for
> >aging. Evaporation from oak barrels also seems to do a nice job of
> >concentrating flavors (assuming you top off the wine, of course). My
> >hypothesis is that this would also be beneficial for any beer which
> >requires a little aging.
> 
> I have to say that the statement that a little oxidation is good for wine is
> very questionable but may have some evidence to support it.   IMO the aging
> with limited transpiration primarily benefits wine in that it allows the
> evaporation of certain nasty volatiles.   I drink a lot of wine these days
> (and for the past 2+ decades) and I've never noticed any flavor problem
> introduce by modern stainless low-O2 processing.  Some fortified and
> specialty wines depend on oxidation, but that's a very special case.
> 
> The unsupported extrapolation that beer can use a little oxidation too is
> almost certainly wrong.  Beer and wine have vastly different levels of
> different anti-oxidants and different oxidisable flavor constituents.  EVERY
> study shows that beer flavor quality and stability is damaged by post
> fermentation oxygen.

Yes, I was speculating. The word "hypothesis" should have given me away.

Anyway, apparently there's quite a little industry devoted to
micro-oxygenation for wines. It may well not work for beer; apparently
it does work best for red wines, which is a point against. However,
it does indicate that different levels of oxygen may cause different
results. Of course, I am not as familiar as you with the research on
the effects of barrel aging of beer, and unfortunately don't have the
time to look in more detail for a while.

*****************************************************

Brian Lundeen asks about how long it would take to get a mL of oxygen
with his aquarium pump (which reminded me I never responded to Steve). I'm
not sure if Brian is joking. Personally, I'd just use a syringe and 5 mL
of air to get 1 mL of oxygen (the nitrogen in the air shouldn't hurt
anything).

Michael
Middleton WI


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:09:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Ed Jones <cuisinartoh at yahoo.com>
Subject: cane vs beet sugar

Sven Pfitt said:
"I guess I'm making better beer than some of  you because I'm using
cane 
sugar instead of beet sugar :)....."

The sugar is so refined that it's essentially 100% sucrose. The source
is irrelevant.

Ed

=====
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:16:41 -0600
From: "mike sullivan" <mikesullivan666 at msn.com>
Subject: Party star delux junk?

I recieved deluxarty star, a box of co2 and a 5 liter mini keg for 
christmas. I tried it out for the first time last night and the regulator 
leaks. It took 8 co2 cartridges to empty the damn thing. Is this a normal 
problem with these? I have the receipt, and am not sure of returning it for 
cash or exchanging it for a new one.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:01:22 -0900
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Calculating gravities in a parti-gyle double mash

Greetings!

I'm a batch sparger, and have been curious about using this procedure as 
a parti-gyle double brew (mash the grains, add a small amount of sparge 
water, drain for brew #1, add more sparge water, drain for brew #2).  
Normally, I'd combine the two run off volumes and that's my wort.  Does 
anyone have a set of equations (or ballpark numbers, even?) for 
predicting what the gravities of first and second runnings would be?

I normally calculate my sparge additions such that an approximately 
equal amount of wort is run out from the mash in each step.  When I 
made the switch to batch sparging, it was suggested that this was the 
best way to split the sparges for maximizing mash efficiency.

For example, in my latest batch, I had 18 pounds of grain, mashed with 
18 quarts of water, and I used 8 quarts of water for the first sparge 
(18 + 8 - 9 quarts held by the grain = 17 quarts run off).  After this, 
I added 15 quarts in the second sparge to yield 15 more quarts of 
wort (the grain is still holding 9 quarts that didn't drain before).  
When the 8 gallons were boiled down to 5.5 gallons, I got an SG of 
1.080.  But I'd like to be able to predict what each half was supposed 
to be.

I've seen equations for batch sparging that include this information, 
but they are part of a set of equations for scaling up a fly sparge 
recipe to batch sparging, and so they include variables I don't have 
(like the scale-up factor).

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Chris
- -- 
Christopher S. Swingley          email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program         Please use encryption.  GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks   www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/



Return to table of contents

---