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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Recipe for alcoholic Rootbeer anyone? (Tim Cook)
  Gypsum or CaCl (Thomas Rohner)
  No Riding At Beer O'Clock! ("Phil Yates")
  Thomas Hardy?  Make your own! (Bev Blackwood II)
  Re: Popping Malt ("Greg R")
  120 minute IPA ("Don Scholl")
  Re: Gypsum vs Calcium Chloride (to drop pH)? (Denny Conn)
  RE: CACA vs CAP (Ronald La Borde)
  RE: Plastic fermenters (Ronald La Borde)
  Warmer in my fridge than in Michigan ("Dave Burley")
  RE: honey in brewing (Steve Funk)
  mash hopping 120 minute IPA (Marc Sedam)
  Re: 10 gallon corny kegs ("Jason G. Pavento")
  Re:  CACA vs CAP ("Steve Arnold")
  RE: Yeast Starters, CACA vs CAP, Plastic fermenters (Bill Tobler)
  Need a quickie ("Michael Joseph O'Donnell")


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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:36:54 +1100
From: Tim Cook <Tim.Cook at Sun.COM>
Subject: Recipe for alcoholic Rootbeer anyone?

*,

[Apologies to those who also read the Aus CraftBrewing list]

My next (or maybe the one after that) brewing project is to brew up
19L of Rootbeer.  I have acquired a couple of bottles of Rootbeer
flavouring from a brew shop in the US.  What I need is some guidance
on how to end up with an alcoholic version of Rootbeer, with residual
sweetness, and preferably bottle-conditioned.

The very brief instructions on the bottle; and slightly more detailed
instructions on the retailers website; seem to be for a recipe
designed to produce non-alcoholic carbonated Rootbeer.  The clues for
this are the short fermenting/conditioning time, followed by stressing
that you keep the bottles refrigerated...

The instructions also tell you to use sucrose and honey as sugars,
along with (preferably) a champagne yeast.

This is all cool, but I am imagining they are intending a fairly large
sweetness from un-fermented sugars, which presumably will balance the
Sassafras extract.

I would instead want to have the wort fully ferment, then bulk prime
and bottle for the right carbonation.  What worries me is that sucrose
and honey will almost fully ferment, giving a dry, bitter alcoholic
Rootbeer.

Would it be valid to substitute with malt, and use a clean ale yeast,
expecting 75% attenuation, to provide enough residual sugars to
balance the Sassafras, along with 4-5% ABV?  Should I use a quantity
of Carapils and/or Crystal to add a bit more sweetness?

Regards,
Tim
Brewing Rootbeer in Melbourne (not the one in Florida), Victoria (not
the one in Canada)




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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:26:38 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Gypsum or CaCl

Hi Darrell
look at your water composition for phosphate and chloride.
If your water is already high in phosphate, take calciumchloride.
If your water is high in chloride, take gypsum.
Chloride and phosphorus are only the "carriers" for what you
really want to add, calcium. In my case, the water is already high in
phosphate. That's why i use CaCl.

Cheers Thomas



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:17:22 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: No Riding At Beer O'Clock!

Jim Bermingham has given my bad day some thought:
> I have read Phil's "A Bad Day Kegging " post several times now and have
> yet to see anything wrong with it.  Well maybe the falling part.  Jill
> was absolutely correct!  You need to get right back on the horse and
> learn to fall properly.

Thanks Jim, apart from falling off before I even got on, I can now see a
litany of errors.
1. It was 7.00pm and at that time of the evening, I have to confess to only
being interested in having a beer or two.
2. It was 7.00pm and the horse apparently wanted his dinner.
3. I should learn to stand up to Jill.
4. I should have taken Bill Tobler's advice and shared some homebrew with
the horse.
5. If I'd followed all of the above, I'd have been enjoying a beer, the
horse his dinner, and the intimate swim together in the dam would never have
occurred.

 I'll stay firmly on the ground in the brew house thanks Jim, though between
you and me and a brew (or maybe a few before I'm game enough), I'll be
getting back on that beast again. Just not at Beer O'Clock!

Phil








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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:44:18 -0600
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Thomas Hardy?  Make your own!

David Craft bemoans the absence of Thomas Hardy Ale and wonders if 
there's  any one out there who carries it...  I personally got tired of 
trying to find it (and when I DID find it getting "off" bottles)  So I 
just brew my own.  It only takes 4-5 years to get the right character, 
but if anyone wants the recipe, just let me know.  (I've tasted the two 
(mine & Thomas Hardy) side by side and it's pretty damn close!)

Just as an FYI, Eldridge Pope was spending far more time on alco-pops 
than T.H.  when I visited there a few years back (1999, I think)  and 
the character of Thomas Hardy reflected that.  Rather than the huge, 
dense and syrupy brew it once was, it actually was clear and sparkling. 
  Still had a lot of the same character, but definitely wasn't the same. 
  I understand the new brewery is trying to get back to "old school" 
T.H. but it remains to be seen if they can get there.

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
Co-Competition Coordinator
The Foam Rangers
http://www.foamrangers.com



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:24:50 -0600
From: "Greg R" <gmrbrewer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Popping Malt

AleX posted regarding his home toasted malt experience, and suggests he will 
add some oven toasted malt to an upcoming porter.  I did that with a recent 
strong porter, and suggest you use a light hand when adding the home toasted 
malt.  As you found, the color of the toasted malt is not very dark before 
it starts tasting like chocolate malt, and there are some funky aromas 
created in the toasting process.  I toasted my Maris Otter per a BYO article 
on traditional porters last year, stepping through a few zones and finishing 
at 350F for about 45 minutes, till it looked like a medium crystal.  I was 
after a traditional version of brown malt, after warnings here that the 
commercial versions were too aggressive.  After letting it sit a couple 
weeks in a paper bag, I used about 20% in my porter, and it did not add 
nearly enough color as I wanted so I had to add a fair bit of chocolate malt 
to the lauter.

When I sampled it during racking I almost gagged.  Way too much smokey, 
acrid flavors that I cannot describe well, reminding me of the odd smells 
during toasting, and I wondered if this was at all what the BYO article 
intended.  Well, some early samples bottled after secondary show tremendous 
improvement.  The harsh smokey flavors are mellowing and add an interesting 
complexity, although still a bit too strong even for my tastes.  Some here 
have posted that I can expect further mellowing, so I will be patient.  I 
remain surprised at the flavor impact from what seemed to be a moderate 
addition.

My point is to go easy on the toasted malt additions.  Lighter versions 
might make less impact, but mine was not very dark looking, and 20% was too 
much.  10% of a darker version would be my recommendation in a porter.  And 
be prepared to give it some time.

Cheers!

Greg in Chicago



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:41:11 -0500
From: "Don Scholl" <dws at engineeringdimensions.com>
Subject: 120 minute IPA

Just what is this delicious sounding 120 minute IPA. I have never heard of
this. Could someone please fill me in.

Don Scholl
Twin Lake, Michigan
(140.9, 302.4)Rennerian



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:43:34 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Gypsum vs Calcium Chloride (to drop pH)?

Darrell, the proper way to use these is to get a water analysis so you have 
a starting point, and some way of checking the effects the additions will 
have, like a pH meter or papers.  Without having the data from an analysis, 
you're just shooting in the dark and can do as much harm as good.  For 
instance, with my well water, I'm in good shape for lighter beers, but need 
to add CaCO3 to drop the pH when brewing darker beers.  I use ColorpHast pH 
papers to get a reading from the mash tun as I make my additions.  If you 
live in an urban area, you water supplier will be able to get you an 
analysis.  Otherwise, go to www.wardlab.com and get test W-6 for $15.  It 
will supply pretty much all the info you need to make informed decisions 
about your water.

         ----------------->Denny

At 12:28 AM 1/27/04 -0500, Darrell wrote:

>Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 06:39:50 -0500
>From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
>Subject: Gypsum vs Calcium Chloride (to drop pH)?
>
>I have been using either Gypsum, or Calcium Chloride in the mash-tun
>when in need of dropping the pH, ie when making a lighter in color ale or
>pils.  My question is: What are the variables that should determine which
>to use?  Or, are they for all practical purposes equally effective in this?
>
>  ..Darrell




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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:44:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: CACA vs CAP

>From: "Ed Dorn" <edorn at cox.net>
>
>I was very surprised at my(our) inability to
>distinguish the beers.  I don't
>know what to make of the experiment's outcome, other
>than to wonder all over
>again if brewing lagers makes as much difference as
>us brewers seem to think
>it does.
>
>I'd love any feedback that you have.

Do ya'll smoke?


=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:56:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald La Borde <pivoron at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Plastic fermenters 

>From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
>
>..I need to buy new fermenters... on an apprentice's
>budget.

If your mash tun can handle the 7 gallon batch size,
then buy some food grade plastic 10 gallon bags. 

Put the bags in the cleaned out mash tun. Close up the
top and attach the airlock/stopper with some tie wrap
or something you can rig up. 

Cheap, big, and disposable.

=====
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:34:05 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Warmer in my fridge than in Michigan

Brewsters,

Rich in Lansing has a problem that it is colder outside his fridge than it
should be inside it and his keg is frozen.  I suggest you put suspend a
lightbulb ( turned on as a source of heat, of course)  inside the fridge to
get the temperature up. I'd start with a 40 watt bulb.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:27:28 -0800
From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com>
Subject: RE: honey in brewing

I have been following this honey topic with great interest.  I want to 
make my typical German Hefeweissen using Wyeast 3068 but would like to 
add a honey element.  I don't know whether to add pasteurized honey 
during high kraeusen, at flame out or just use honey malt as Steve Cavan 
suggests.  Has anyone produced a honey wheat that they would like to 
comment on?
- -- 
Steve Funk
Brewing in the Columbia River Gorge




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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:23:30 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: mash hopping 120 minute IPA

Randy Ricci casts his fate with mash hopping...

Randy, I'm normally all for this concept...except mash hopping will add 
exactly ZERO appreciable bitterness to your batch.  The idea of adding 
the hops every 10 minutes seems better to me.  You would have a 
beautiful hop aroma through mash hopping, though.

I happened to enjoy Steve's treatise on enzymes.  I happen to feel like, 
as a former biochemist and food scientist/enzymologist, that my brewing 
is appreciably better because I understand fundamentally what's 
happening in the mash tun (to the extent we can know).  It means that 
you know immediately how and why to treat unmalted grains, when you need 
to worry about the heat of the tun, etc.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:41:26 -0500
From: "Jason G. Pavento" <whiplash at juno.com>
Subject: Re: 10 gallon corny kegs

Scott A. posts:
>You might look for an older McDonald's and see if they still have
theirs. 
>They'll probably have only one or two if they have any at all.  They
were
>filled in-store with orange drink concentrate from one-gallon jugs... 

Hey, maybe you worked at a Mcdee's a lot longer ago than me (about 1992 -
1998) or maybe different stores just do things differently but I never
saw a 10 gal corny there. The Hi-C syrup came in the same 5-gal kegs (we
always called 'em "figals") that the rest of the flavors came in. We did
have gallon jugs of the Hi-C but they were for customers who rented out
the "O-Bowl" (the 5 gal drink cooler like many of us use as a mash-tun). 
Anyway, when we were converted to the "Bag-in-box" all of the figals went
back to Coke. Alas, I was not a homebrewer back then and didn't think to
snag any before they went back. For this reason I wouldn't put much hope
towards finding any kegs (10 gal or 5) at any Mcdees.

Keep in mind this is just one man's opinions/observations and how we did
it a few years back at a couple different stores here in MA and isn't
necessarily indicative of how it's done in the rest of the chain.

For a larf visit my McDonalds web page I set up a few years back to vent
my frustrations  at 
http://members.tripod.com/~herzeleid/frames.html


Jay
Brewin' Rehab Homebrews at
The Boilover BrauHaus in
Walpole MA 02081
In Bottles:
"What Have I Done?? Bride Ale Test Batch."
"Vlad The Impaler, Imperial Pale Ale."
"Nuncio, Apple Brown Ale"



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:24:07 -0600
From: "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re:  CACA vs CAP

Ed Dorn wrote about an experiment with Jeff's CAP/CACA recipe.

Very interesting.  I did the same experiment and my results were quite
different.  I did a ten gallon batch, split into 2 primaries, one with 1056
(ale), and one with 2007 (lager).  Fermented the ale at around 70F, and the
lager at 52F for 12 days, then slowly dropped to 35F.  Everything else was the
same - same grain bill, hops and kettle schedule.

In comparing the two finished beers, I found that the ingredients of the
Pilsner (grain, corn, hops) were the dominant flavor contributor, while in the
ale the fermentation by-products (presumably esters, etc.) were much more
prominent.  I shared both beers with a Coors Light drinking friend, and she
preferred the Pilsner hands down.  She grimaced at the ale, presumably because
it was too intense for her.  As an experienced brewer myself, and having
shared both beers with other experienced brewers, they were both wonderful
beers.  (Thanks for the recipe, Jeff)

The next step of my experiment would be to enter both beers in a single
competition twice - once each as a CAP and as a CACA to see if the judges'
comments reflected the difference.   I actually did this, but I couldn't tell
which comment sheets were from which beer, so the results of my little scam on
the judges were muddled.  It is worth noting that the only one to place in the
competition was a CACA entered as a CACA.

 - Steve Arnold (the brewer formerly known as Steve A, much to the chagrin of
the brewer known simply as -S.)  ;)



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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:43:53 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Yeast Starters, CACA vs CAP, Plastic fermenters

Yesterday, David Peters told of his trip to Vail and a tour of the Brewery.
He said,

>I was fortunate to be able to spend time in Vail recently doing what one
>does.  

>On the beer related end of the spectrum, I was able to enjoy some fine
>German Beer in Kaltneberg Castle.  The brewpub is licensed from Germany
>through Prince Luipold of Bavaria.  His ancestor was King Wilhelm who was
>responsible for the Rheinheitsgebot.  Along with a great tour by the head
>brewer he passed along the above and much more. snip...

I got curious and did a Google search on King Wilhelm.  It looks like he was
around between 1797 and 1888.  (He must have been a healthy bugger) I had to
do another search for the Reinheitsgebot (German Purity Law) which was
adopted in 1516, almost two hundred years before the long lived King
Wilhelm.  Am I missing something or is there an earlier King Welhelm?


Ed Dorn brewed a CACA (To our northern neighbors, a CCCA) and a CAP (Two of
my favorites) but out of the same 10 gallon batch.  That wouldn't work for
me as I like my CAP bigger in OG with a little more hop bite.  My cream ale
is lighter in color and doesn't have as much of the corn flavor.  It's not
surprising that you couldn't tell the two apart, especially if you cold
conditioned the CACA/CCCA.  1056 ferments very clean, and with the same hop
schedule, the beers would be very close.  Looking at the BJCP Style Chart,
the low end of the CAP crosses over with the high end of the Cream Ale, so I
suppose you could split the 10 gallons and still be in style for each. The
OG's are right on, with the CAP going just a little higher.

My understanding of the Cream Ale history was they were looking for a way to
make a CAP-like beer but ferment it as an Ale, for faster turn arounds. I'm
not sticking my neck out as to who "they" are.  Someone up "North."

I can't keep a keg of Cream Ale around.  My friend's are like bloodhounds
when I brew that beer.  All of a sudden, the card game is in the brewery.
(Don't tell them, but that's why I brew it!!)

Parker Dutro is looking for a cheep, bigger fermenter.  Here is an idea.
Get a NEW plastic garbage can from Wallyworld, maybe a 10 gallon size, and
line it with a food grade plastic bag from a roll. (Google search plastic
bags) The bags are sanitized from the production process.  Just line the
plastic can with the bag, pour in your wort, and cover with the lid.  You
might want to sanitize the lid with Star San or whatever you use.  When your
done, siphon into a secondary and throw out the bag or pitch on top of it.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian

 




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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:03:23 -0800
From: "Michael Joseph O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Need a quickie

Hi All,

What are some of the things that influence how quickly a beer is ready to 
drink?  It seems like most of my batches continue to improve for at least a 
month.  

The reason I'm asking is that I'm wanting to brew a batch of lighter beer 
(probably a pale ale or maybe a hefe from extract) to round out the 
selection for a party I'm planning... currently, everything I've got is 
very dark. I think that I have slightly less than a month (haven't set on a 
date) and it'll be less by the time I get around to getting ingredients.  

Any thoughts, either for ways to speed the process (I was thinking of using 
dry yeast so I could get a lot in since I don't have time to make a 
starter) or for a great recipe that conditions quickly?  


thanks!
Mike
Monterey, CA


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