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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Burners (Kent Fletcher)
  keg coating (KC Sare)
  alcoholic root beer ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")
  Concept of "Session Beer" (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Spartanburg, SC ("Bridges, Scott")
  Re: trash can bags for brewing (Gary Krone)
  Fermenter Heating ("Martin Brungard")
  Lightbulb as heat source (Jeff and/or Donna May)
  Quick brews ("Dave Draper")
  kegging questions ("Chris Keenan")
  re: Warmer in my fridge than in Michigan ("Michael O'Donnell")
  Re; St. Patty's Day Brew (NO Spam)
  Kaltenberg Castle (davidpeters)
  Cooking with beer (Steve Funk)
  Re: Ginty's Irish-American (Ted Grudzinski)
  Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC ("John C.Tull")
  RE: quickie beer (Steve Funk)
  CACA vs CAP ("Ed Dorn")
  Speaking of Irish Red Ales ("Steve Arnold")
  Gelatinization and corn malt ("Jon & Megan Sandlin")
  Question for Dave Burley ("William Frazier")


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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:29:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Burners

Ted Hull is considering going with Natural Gas
burners:

> Checked w/ a co-worker who does HVAC, and it appears
> that the 5/8" supply line will only carry roughly 
> 70-90 cu ft/hr, which equates to roughly 70,000 to 
> 90,000 Btu/hr.

It's not quite that simple, it depends on the distance
from the pressure regulator, which is at the meter. 
If you're fairly close to the meter you will have more
capacity.  A 1/2" pipe at 40 feet from the meter will
supply 82 cu ft/hr.  Fifty feet takes you down to 73. 
On the other hand, if you're only 20 deet from the
meter you'd have 119 cu ft/hr capacity, which is
pretty decent,  and should run a burner big enough for
10 gallon batches with no real strain.  If your
desired location is a long distance from the meter,
you'll probably want to stick with LPG.  If it's only
20-30 feet, you might consider upsizing to 3/4" pipe,
which would more than double the capacity (249 cu
ft/hr at 20 feet, for example).  Gas meters are
usually placed at the side of a house, so it can be a
short run to a back  patio.  It's only 13 feet from
the meter to my patio.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal




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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:42:30 -0800 (PST)
From: KC Sare <beerbeer95648 at yahoo.com>
Subject: keg coating

Today I was trying to weld a 2 inch tri-clover ferrel
to a converted keg.  I was welding from the inside
using a small miller TIG welder.  The problem being
that a stable ark would not form inside the keg. 
However, there was no problem from the outside.  I
have faith in my welding skills, and am sure there was
no problem with my set-up.  The keg is an old Anheuser
Busch keg, and is definitely stainless.  Does anyone
know if there is a possibility of there being some
kind of coating inside these kegs?

Thanks 
KC



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:13:26 -0500
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: alcoholic root beer

Tim Cook wants to make alcoholic root beer.  I think the best way to do this
is completely forget the sugar and honey.  Instead, use Laaglander dry malt
extract, probably the extra light "shade".  This malt extract has a
notoriously low attenuation and thus can be used for many different styles
of beers to supplement a more attenuative extract.  There may be others that
have this quality too but I don't know of them.  You should also choose an
unattenuative yeast as well, I think I'd suggest one of the scottish
strains.

In my experience sucrose or honey attenuate a tremendous amount and do not
add much in the way of sweetness unless you have a really big beer.

Another idea would be to add lactose, to sort of make a "milk root beer".

good luck!



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:20:31 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Concept of "Session Beer"

Saw the term a number of times and understood it from context to mean 
an easy-to-drink beer. Didn't understand the relation to a "drinking 
session" (quite British a concept), but could still imagine it being 
the kind of beer brewpub patrons are likely to order a pitcher of.
But I'm wondering about implications and connotations. As opposed to a 
lot of our terminology, it seems to be consumption-oriented, rather 
than brewing techniques. It also seems much more fluid than tasting and 
judging categories.
After googling a bit for explanations, I thought I'd ask the collective.
So, what are the "limits" of a session beer? The easy-to-drink factor 
clearly involves alcohol content but is there an acknowledged limit on 
this? Can a 6% ABV beer be considered a "session brew" if it meets 
other criteria? If so, what other criteria are there? If not, is 5% the 
limit?
What role does body/FG/residual sweetness play in the equation? For a 
session beer not to be "filling," should it be low in calories and/or 
low in flavour?
Then, aren't there tacit restrictions on which beer styles may be the 
base for a session brew? Can there be a "session witbier" if the 
brewery or pub sells it as the main quaffable beer (as happens in some 
places)?
Also, is it like ABT, defined as one extreme for a specific brewery or 
is there a general consensus on what it means?

Ah, so many questions, so little beer.

Thinking about this... it might be fun to have "session beer" 
experiments, using different brews. Which beer is easier to drink? Does 
the beer profile have an influence on rate of intake?
Older residents of a university's "greek system" would surely volunteer 
as guinea pigs... ;-)

AleX in Moncton, NB
[1568.9km, 68] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:41:06 -0500
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Spartanburg, SC



"Robert Humphrey" <RobertHumphrey at ev1.net writes:

>The last plant I worked in had protable emergency eye wash stations made
out
>of ten gallon corny kegs.  I believe the kegs were made in Spartenburg
>Georgia.  

Robert,
Spartanburg is in South Carolina, not Georgia.  They are our neighbors, but
I didn't want you confusing us with those crackers next door...  Many of the
corny style kegs were produced by Spartanburg Steel.  

ob brewing:  I'm moving next month to a new house in the area and have
already scoped out a space for my brewery.  She Who Must Be Obeyed has
already granted my petition for the dedicated space in the garage which I
guess was designed for a workshop.  I haven't brewed much lately due to
life's other obligations but I'm looking forward to getting back into it.  I
hope to be able to put some of the suggestions I've seen here in place in
the new brewhouse.  

Scott
Brewing in Columbia, SC (not Maryland, not Missouri, not District of ....)




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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:59:21 -0600
From: Gary Krone <gkrone at wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: trash can bags for brewing

I wouldn't even consider trash can liners for this!!  Many have an 
insecticide on them for the obvious reasons.  Can be hazardous to your health.


>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:29:05 -0500
>From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
>Subject: trash can bags for brewing
>
>Yesterday's HBD had a couple of suggestions to use trash can bags as a
>sanitary liner for fermentors.
>I have no doubt they are sanitary, but how do you know which brands
>would be food-grade? Considering their intended use, I doubt if the
>manufacturers would be touting them as food-grade.
>

Gary Krone
7617 50th Ave
Kenosha, WI  53142
gkrone at wi.rr.com
(262)697-5041 




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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 05:18:08 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fermenter Heating

I'm not surprised to see all the posts with recommendations for using a 
light bulb as a heat source in a fermenter chamber.  Its very cheap and easy 
to do.  Of course the light from the bulb is not an ideal by-product, but 
that is easily accommodated with an aluminum foil shroud.  I have another 
simple and relatively cheap heat source.

A simple heating pad is what I use.  For less than $15, I have an adjustable 
heat source that also serves me when I overdo some lifting ;-)

I just put the pad in the chamber and set it to the high setting.  I keep my 
cooling thermostat setting at the proper temperature and let it keep the 
fermenter temperature correct.  I usually have to turn the heating pad 
setting down after the fermenter has reached its target temperature so the 
cooling system isn't working overtime.  My workshop has its temperature set 
at about 50F, when I'm not working out there.  My well-insulated fermenter 
chamber works beautifully at ale temperatures with this arrangement.

Throwing a heating pad in your normally "cooling-purpose" fermenter chamber 
is an easy addition for those cold times of the year.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:45:32 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Jeff and/or Donna May <mayzer at earthlink.net>
Subject: Lightbulb as heat source

I am having the same problem with my fermenting fridge not staying warm
enough to ferment ales.  It is in the laundry room where it stays around 62F
during the winter months.  I am considering the light bulb approach with a
thermostat.  It works for my pump house, so it should work for my fridge.

My concern is exposing the beer to light.  I ferment in glass carboys and I
try to prevent the beer from getting light-struck.  Should I be concerned
about the light bulb exposing the fermenting beer to too much light?  I
guess I could cover the carboy to shield it.

Jeff May
Mayzerbrau
Wilmington NC


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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:16:12 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Quick brews

Dear Friends,

With regard to Michael O'Donnell's query on a quick-conditioning 
batch:

I recommend a very straightforward British-style pub bitter.  I have 
one in the keg now that went from brew day to tap in just over two 
weeks.  I am at work and so don't have my notes to give you the 
exact recipe, but that's not really important.  Use a grain bill that 
starts with a good, standard pale ale malt and about 20% medium 
crystal, and that's it-- simplicity itself.  Shoot for an OG of about 
1.040, and hop with any decent bittering hop for about 30 IBU, and 
be sure to use generous amounts of a good British finishing hop in the 
final ten minutes.  Mine used East Kent Goldings, and the hop flavor 
and aroma are wonderful (and I didn't even dry-hop).  I also used 
Nottingham dry ale yeast (I am a firm fan of this yeast for such 
beers).

For this brew, I was shooting for something like Hook Norton, a straw-
to-golden bitter that was one of my very faves when I lived in the UK 
lo! these many years ago.  I recall Michael's aim was to have 
something besides his darker brews that are already on hand, so this 
would fit that bill as well.  

Hope this helps,

Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html




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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:52:53 -0500
From: "Chris Keenan" <chrisk at flagshipcinemas.com>
Subject: kegging questions

Hello,

I would first like to thank all of you who helped me so much with the
encouragement to move to kegging.  I did it for my last batch and I am in
love with both the product and the time it saved me.  I do have a couple of
questions though, that I am sure are elementary for you all, but I am
stumped.

1) I think that I dispensing the beer all wrong.  I have a standard 5 gallon
corney keg with a CO2 set up.  I am not able to convert a 'fridge (yet) and
I keep the keg in a standard 'fridge with the shelving removed.  I also have
the tavern style tap which attached directly to the quick disconnect of the
corney.  When I first drew a glass, it was great, now when I draw a pint, I
get probably 3/4 foam and 1/4 beer.  This as you know is not all that
appealing.  I have tried dispensing using no CO2 flow, I have used CO2 flow
low and then at 1 - 2 psi above the psi to carbonate, and I still get foam,
what is the solution here, I am stumped.  I am convinced that I am
dispensing wrong, yet I cannot find good advice on this...

2) I have a brew in my Carboy that is ready to be moved to the keg for Super
Bowl Sunday.  I still have some of my prior batch in the keg, is there a
good way to get out the beer and so that I can force carbonate the next
batch without purchasing a counter-pressure bottle filter, as I really do
not want to spend the money, yet.

Thanks for the help!!
Chris
Everett, MA





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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:00:45 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: re: Warmer in my fridge than in Michigan

Another option that I use to keep my fridge warm is little baseboard 
heaters they sell for de-humidifying closets.  Now, it doesn't get that 
cold where I live (<40F, and people whine), but I use these to keep my 
fermentation box at 65 in the winter.  They look like a piece of 1/2" pipe 
with a  plug coming out and never get too hot to touch.  I think they are 
between 10-30 watts, which might be a little low.  They have the advantage 
that they are sealed and pretty sturdy so you don't need to worry if you 
spill some beer on them or about breaking one while shifting kegs 
around.  I think I paid about $10.

cheers,
mike
Monterey, CA



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:13:51 -0500
From: NO Spam <nospam02 at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re; St. Patty's Day Brew

Hey Jeff,

Nice to hear from you - great posts as usual.

I really like your interpretation of American
Irish Red Ale - I just may have to try this one!
Looks to be a great recipe.

One question though - and I see this alot, so
I'm really wondering.

I own a homebrew shop, as you probably know from
previous conversations.  I buy all my grains from
established, well know suppliers.  I am very
familiar with their catalogs - I know what's
available and what isn't, for the most part.

Very frequently, we see these recipes, like yours,
that call for crystal malt in everything from
35L to 25L to 55L to 65L.  I don't understand
where this comes from.

All the major suppliers supply crystal malt in
20L, 40L, 60L, 80L and 120L.  There is no such
thing as 55L, 35L or 25L crystal.

Are you blending your crystal?  I could see where
if you blend, say 1/2 pound of 60 and 1/2 pound
of 40, you'd get 1 pound of 50.

Just curious.

Bill Wible
Brew By You

"It's not great brew,
unless it's Brew By You!"

- ------------------------------
Brew By You    
20 Liberty Boulevard, Ste A-4
Malvern, PA 19355
610-644-6258 
888-542-BREW (Toll Free)
610-644-6629 (Fax)
http://www.brewbyyou.net
- ------------------------------




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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:20:40 +0000
From: davidpeters at comcast.net
Subject: Kaltenberg Castle

Bill Tobler had problems with his google search.  Maybe because I enjoyed 
too many beers there.  It was Duke Wilhelm rather than King Wilhelm as I 
found in their sight "World-wide it is the view that the most important 
contribution made by Duke Wilhelm IV was the establishment in 1516 of the 
famous Beer Purity Law (Reinheitsgebot) on which the whole reputation of 
Bavarian beer depends (and which later was adopted for the whole of 
Germany). The law has to be one of the first ordinances controlling the 
quality of food and drink in the whole world - and of course is that of 
highest importance to the beer drinker. The Beer Purity Law states that 
the beer shall be brewed "only from hops, barley malt and water" 
and nothing else. In other words, this means that the beer must not 
contain any other additives - something which nowadays plays a great 
role."
The reference is from : 
http://www.kaltenberg.com/koenig_ludwig.asp?lang=en

Hit the Brewery Tab and then Prinz Luitpold - a Wittelsbacher for 
a little history lesson.

>Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:43:53 -0600
>From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
>Subject: RE: Yeast Starters, CACA vs CAP, Plastic fermenters
>Yesterday, David Peters told of his trip to Vail and a brewery tour.

 ........

>I got curious and did a Google search on King Wilhelm.  It looks like he 
>was around between 1797 and 1888.  (He must have been a healthy bugger) 
>I had to do another search for the Reinheitsgebot (German Purity Law) 
>which was adopted in 1516, almost two hundred years before the long 
>lived King >Wilhelm.  Am I missing something or is there an earlier King 
>Welhelm?

David Peters 
Northville, MI


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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:27:55 -0800
From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com>
Subject: Cooking with beer

Brewing beer for use as a beverage is obvious.  But, cooking with beer 
can really add pizzazz to your recipes too.  Even Emeril Lagasse has an 
article with a couple recipes that include beer. 
http://houseandhome.msn.com/Food/Experts/CookingwithBeer.aspx
How many of you have a favorite recipe that includes beer.  Would you 
care to share any recipes?
Cheers,
- -- 
Steve Funk
Brewing in the Columbia River Gorge
Stevenson, WA




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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:31:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Grudzinski <tgrudzin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ginty's Irish-American

Do I trest the maize and barley in any special way, or
just add it to the mash?

Ted



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:12:46 -0800
From: "John C.Tull" <johnctull at fastmail.fm>
Subject: Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC

I want to invite the members of this list to participate in the 2004 
Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists Hombrew Competition here in Reno, NV. We will 
be judging Sunday 29 February 2004, with entries due from 7-21 February 
2004. Last year we had over 100 entries, and the BOS winner brewed 
their beer at the Great Basin Brewing Company. This year's winner will 
brew at Silver Peak Restaurant & Brewery in Reno, NV, receive a $50 
gift certificate for use at the Reno Homebrewer (mail orders ok), and 
receive their very own yard glass.

If you would like to enter your homebrew, or volunteer to steward or 
judge, or for more information, please visit our competition web page 
for all the details, and for online registration. Email me if you have 
any questions.

http://134.197.55.114/wzz/wzz-comp2004.html

I look forward to getting your beer. Best of luck and skill!

John Tull
WZZHC Competition Organizer



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:04:26 -0800
From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com>
Subject: RE: quickie beer

Alan Semok proposed a recipe outline for a quick turn-around time beer. 
  I just have one question about a statement:

<snip>
<...and a pinch or two of black for color (and to help the
beer clear)."

Back to me-
Does the use of black malt, or any dark malt for that matter, aid in the 
clairity of the wort runoff, final beer or what?
Cheerr,
- -- 
Steve Funk
Brewing in the Columbia River Gorge
Stevenson, WA




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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:44:00 -0500
From: "Ed Dorn" <edorn at cox.net>
Subject: CACA vs CAP

First - to Ron from Cajun country.  No, we don't smoke.  And in my absence,
please visit Acme Oyster House and have a few dozen oysters knowing that I
long to be in one of those seats again soon.

Several people have asked about the fermentation temps/schedules I used for
my brews.  I should have mentioned this in the original post.  Generally I
followed what I think are pretty typical fermentation schedules - I
certainly had no interest in trying to gimmick the results.

Brewday was November 1.  Original gravity was 1.043.  The ale (Wyeast 1056)
was fermented one week in primary at 67-70 F, and one week in secondary at
the same temperature.  It was kegged on November 15 with FG at 1.007.  The
CAP (WLP 833) was fermented 9 days at 50 F, got a 36-hour rest at 60 F, then
secondary fermentation at 45 F for 11 days.  Temp was then taken to freezing
and remained so for 2 weeks.  Beer was then kegged with a FG of 1.009.  It
then went into the serving tank at 40F and was carbonated over the next
week.  Both beers are force carbonated.

Others have said that their results of similar tastings have yielded
dissimilar results.  I'd urge caution about tastings that are not blind.
The power of suggestion is incredibly strong.  I, too, thought that the
beers were different as I consumed them.  The blind triangle tasting proved
me mistaken.

Some have suggested by private email that it's not surprising that 1056 is
clean enough to brew a beer quite similar to a lager.  If that turns out to
be consistently true, that's BIG NEWS.  To me, at least.  Maybe I was in the
proverbial 10% that didn't get the word, but I was unaware that such is the
case.

I'm certainly not drawing any conclusions from one tasting result.  But as
I've progressed over about 6 years of brewing, I've found myself wondering
how important lagers really are to the homebrewer.  I find myself thinking
back to when the first pilsner appeared in central Europe.  It was a
beautiful golden color and quite striking in the comparsion to the brown mud
that passed for beer in those days.  It seems to me entirely plausible that
over
the years a culture has grown up around the idea that to create a particular
type of beer it must be a lager.  AND with today's wide variety of yeasts,
 perhaps "clean" ale yeasts can produce beers that are virtually
indistinguishable
from their lager brethren.  In fact, my original post asked if it was
possible to
differentiate between a lager and an ale IN THE GLASS.

Just think what it would mean to a great many homebrewers if they could very
nearly clone world-class lagers in their homes with no refrigeration for
fermentation.  I'm simply wondering if it's possible.

Ed Dorn, Va Beach, VA









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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:57:08 -0600
From: "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com>
Subject: Speaking of Irish Red Ales

A recent issue of Zymurgy mentioned the possibility of IRA becoming an
official style for BJCP.  Anyone have any insight into that process?  Any
chance of that style being recognized before the March Bluebonnet competition
in Texas?

 -Steve Arnold
Fort Smith, Arkansas



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:27:10 -0800
From: "Jon & Megan Sandlin" <sandlin at bendcable.com>
Subject: Gelatinization and corn malt

I have malted some corn that I would like to use to make a "beer" from 100%
corn malt; however, I have a concern with the fact that the temperature for
starch conversion is lower than the gelatinization temperature for corn
(70-75
degrees C).  I have a dilema, will I denature the enzymes in the corn malt
if I getatinize the corn?  Thanks in advance for your help.

Jon Sandlin
Bend, OR




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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:21:19 -0600
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Question for Dave Burley

Dave wrote, in a discussion of how to purge kegs with CO2;
"Other later modifications by other brewers added in the idea of using
sanitizing agents instead of just plain hot water. There is no need to make
up 5 gallons of sanitizer"

Dave - I'm one of the brewers that fill a keg with Iodophor to sanitize.
Then I dispense the Iodophor into beer bottles to sanitize them before
filling with beer.  My question - do you sanitize your beer bottles or do
you treat them with very hot water like you do to sanitize your kegs?

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas





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