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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Trappist Yeast Ranching and Utilization ("Steve Smith")
  RE: Stuck Fermentation (Lou King)
  Stuck Fermentation ("PAUL SMITH")
  Yeast propagation and ownership ("PAUL SMITH")
  two styles/one mash (Robin Griller)
  dip tube circumcision (Steve Bruns)
  Re: Aluminum or Steel co2 Tank ("Michael O'Donnell")
  re: Under-counter fridge & tap assembly (stencil)
  Course for homebrewers ("Keith Lemcke")
  Re:McGinty's Irish-American Red Ale (Ted Grudzinski)
  RE: Wiring a washing machine motor ("Ronald La Borde")
  Under-counter fridge & tap assembly ("A.Ulinskas")


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 00:31:56 -0700
From: "Steve Smith" <sasmith at in-tch.com>
Subject: Trappist Yeast Ranching and Utilization

I'm brewing a Chimay Red clone (from the recipe in the book "Clone Brews")
and would prefer to give the beer a total of six weeks in the secondary
fermenter (carboy) to bulk age, complete fermentation, reach the specified
FG, and clear.  The recipe only specifies to bottle once fermentation is
complete.  To date, the beer has been in the secondary fermenter for three
weeks.  I know that I can be a genius and take a gravity reading and get on
with it, but in the past I've had such good luck with bulk aging, and
Szamatulski's newer, more instructive book, "Beer Captured" suggests letting
a similar-ingredients/ABV Belgian Dubbel go a full six weeks in the
secondary, and suggests waiting for all their Belgian clone brews to clear
before bottling (mine is still quite cloudy).

The questions are coming... but first more background.  Thank you (truly)
for your patience.  To begin fermentation, I had made a yeast starter from
yeast dregs in the bottom of a bottle of Chimay Red (I stepped up the
starter once with additional wort before pitching), and this yeast method
appears to have worked well so far.  That is, it bubbled well into the
eighth (final) day of primary, and a little bit through the third day of
secondary fermentation, and there's a good yeast cake on the bottom of the
carboy.  To ensure good carbonation (I always bottle), I was thinking that I
could add fresh yeast to the secondary fermenter three days before bottling
(in their newer book, the authors of the above books also recommend this
practice for at least one Dubbel using Trappist yeast strains).  Therefore,
in preparation I washed the yeast away from the trub left over when I racked
to the secondary fermenter, following John Palmer's instructions on how to
do that, as found in his excellent book, "How To Brew".

I am left with about 1/8 inch of yeast in the bottom of a refrigerated,
sealed, sanitized pint canning jar that is otherwise filled to the top with
boiled, cooled water, and wrapped in aluminum foil to stay away from the
fridge light.  As stated above, I could use this source of yeast to make
another starter, and re-inoculate the beer with the starter slurry prior to
bottling.  Given the above, to your knowledge is this a smart, or needless
and risky (due to possibility of infection) course of action given the
characteristics
of Chimay yeast?  I know that with most beers, the yeast residing within the
fermenting beer typically remain active for up to a full three months after
the brew
date, at least active enough to complete carbonation.
If you recommend adding yeast prior to bottling, to your knowledge will the
Chimay yeast in the refrigerator last the full 5 1/2 weeks it has to wait
before I make my starter (John Palmer states yeast kept this way will last
for UP TO two months).  Or, should I feed the yeast some wort soon to keep
it viable prior to making a starter from it?    I just don't want flat, or
infected beer!  And I promise, I will soon buy the good books out there on
brewing Belgian Ales.  This is my first experience brewing one.

Thank you.

Steve Smith
Missoula, MT




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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 05:35:43 -0500
From: Lou King <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Stuck Fermentation

"Mark Coster" <mvcoster at ev1.net> said:

> I usually rack to 
> secondary after one week but checked SG w/ refractometer and 
> it shows 8 brix which I believe is close to 1.032 SG.  OG was 
> 1.056, so just a drop of 24 points.  

The rule of thumb calculation of SG points = brix * 4 only works for
original gravity.  The calculations for gravity during fermentation are
more complicated due to the alcohol content of the beer.

Promash runs these calculations for me, and for an OG of 1.056, with
current refractometer measurement of 8.0 brix, it tells me that the
current gravity is 1.017, ready for racking to secondary in my opinion.

Promash has several references for these calculations, quoted here from
the help file:

" 
'Use of Handheld Refractometers by Small Scale Brewers', Louis K Bonham,
Zymurgy Vol 24, No. 1 - January/February 2001.

Jean De Clerck, "Use of Refractometers", A Textbook of Brewing, Vol. 2

AJ deLange

Note that the calculations for gravity during fermentation and %Alcohol
vary slightly from those derived from the formulas presented in Mr.
Bonham's article. This is because ProMash's coding allowed for the use
of more complicated and accurate formulas, as opposed to the simplified
ones presented in the article, which were intended to be worked by hand
or by hand calculators...
"

Going back to the Louis Bonham Zymurgy article I see the formula is
stated as

SG = 1.001843
   -0.002318474*OG
   -0.000007775*OG^2
   -0.000000034*OG^3
   +0.00574*R
   +0.00003344*R^2
   +0.000000086*R^3

where
  SG = Specific gravity of the beer in specific gravity units [sic]
  R = Refractometer reading in Brix
  OG = Original gravity in degrees Plato

or more simply (and less accurately) as

SG = 1.53*R + 0.59*OG

where
  SG = Specific gravity of the beer in degrees Plato
  R = Refractometer reading in Brix
  OG = Original gravity in degrees Plato

I don't use these calculations directly, though.  Like I say, I let Jeff
Donovan's fine software do the work for me.  (NAYYY)

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD
http://www.lousbrews.info (note new domain name)





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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:27:10 -0600
From: "PAUL SMITH" <pksmith_morin1 at msn.com>
Subject: Stuck Fermentation

Mark writes:

"I have over 50 brews under my belt but never have experienced stuck
fermentation.  I brewed a pale ale 24 Jan, and today still have a good head 
on brew in carboy.  I usually rack to secondary after one week but checked 
SG w/ refractometer and it shows 8 brix which I believe is close to 1.032 
SG.  OG was 1.056, so just a drop of 24 points.  Brewing is conducted in 
fridge with controller set to 68 deg F.  Thermometer on carboy states same.

I made 1.6L starter of 1 cup DME with fresh WLP001 day before brewing and 
starter was at high krauesen at time of pitching.  Fermentation kicked in 5 
hours after racking from brew kettle.

Usually fermentation is close to complete by now and want to know if  I 
should rack to secondary or wait longer?  Any suggestions?"

***

Mark, if you've brewed 50 batches without a similar experience, using a 
similar technique, then I am puzzled.  Presuming you brew in 5 gallon 
brewlengths, you've adequate starter.  The only thing I can think of is 
oxygenation.  I use pure 02 and a stone, and my fermentation runs parallel 
commercial runs - i.e., high krausen within 12 hours, and largely at final 
gravity by day 3 - this, even on starting gravities of 20 plato (1.083).  By 
day 6 I dry hop, if I am going to, and by day 9 I crash cool and lager for a 
couple of weeks.

Again, this doesn't explain why this batch differed from previous batches. 
Your gravity was not all that high, and you have adequate starter. But I'd 
invest in an oxygenation system - they are quite reasonable.  I goose about 
9 seconds per gallon of wort - I use 2 quarts, typically, for starter, so I 
goose even the starter with 4+ seconds.

Cheers,

Paul 


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:34:24 -0600
From: "PAUL SMITH" <pksmith_morin1 at msn.com>
Subject: Yeast propagation and ownership

Alexandre asks after the legality of yeast ranching.  I'm not a lawyer, so 
take everything that follows with a grain of salt.  I believe even GM foods, 
including yeasts, are hotly contested areas of the law in terms of 
"ownership."  Much less, simply propagating a "natural" strain is, in my 
understanding, completely legal.  It seems that purchasing a bottle of ale, 
as an example, which contains the wanted strain includes the purchase of all 
that was in that bottle - including the viable yeast.  Propagating and 
maintaining slants off that yeast is no different than what commercial 
breweries do - they buy master slants, or pints of pure culture, prop it up 
and reuse it in generation after generation in their unitanks - all without 
paying additionally to the yeast lab(s).

Paul 


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:25:50 -0500
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: two styles/one mash

Hi all,

Marc asks about doing two different styles from one mash. I often do this
(well, would do it often, if I got to brew often!) and find the beers turn
out well. Options include:

 -an old ale from the first runnings, followed by a mild or bitter from the
second half of the runnings. If a mild, throw some dark grains in after
running off/sparging for sufficient wort for the old ale;
 -a strong ale and a light bitter...
 -a stout and a mild...
 -a dry stout and a sweet stout (with enough lactose and a lot lower
hopping rate);
 -etc.

You can produce two relatively equal gravity beers by doing a first third-
remainder division of the runnings or a strong beer and a low gravity beer
by doing a first half-second half division of the runnings. Iirc, the
first third of the run off has about 1/2 the sugars, the first half about
two thirds.

Sometimes you'll want to add some grain after running off the first beer,
sometimes not...I've even on occassion done a small separate mash which I
then add to the main mash after running off the first wort if I want to
use substantial amounts of grain that need mashing (i.e. amber) for the
second beer or want to boost the gravity of the second beer.

I've never had a second batch that was astringent and I often sparge to 2
quarts/lb....I do often check the late runnings to make sure they aren't
getting too low. In my experience, second runnings wort makes an
*excellent* highly hopped low gravity bitter....a couple of my favourite
batches of bitter I've made were done this way. Very dry finish, flavour
hops and bitterness really shine.

cheers,
Robin



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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 06:51:37 -0800
From: Steve Bruns <sdbruns at telus.net>
Subject: dip tube circumcision

I've read somewhere that one should cut about 1" off of the "out" dip 
tube in a Corny to help avoid dispensing the sediment as it settles out 
in the keg.  Good idea or no?

Thanks,

Steve Bruns
Penticton, BC








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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:00:10 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Aluminum or Steel co2 Tank


>Steve asks about buying a CO2 tank.

You may want to ask your gas supplier about paying a deposit to use their 
cylinders instead.

I purchased a tank years ago, and have since abandoned my own, shiny-pretty 
aluminum one in favor of a beat-up steel one from the gas supplier.  The 
advantage is that I can walk in, hand them my empty and be out of there 
with a different full one in 5 minutes, rather than waiting around for 
someone to fill my personal tank.  An added bonus is that pressure tanks 
need to be inspected every 5 years; if you own the tank, you have to pay 
for it, while if they own the tank it is their responsibility.

>         Another question; My local supplier will sell me a brand new 
> steel tank
>(10lb) for $95, filled.  Is that a good price?  I can get a brand new
>aluminum tank (10lb)on the net, from beveragefactory.com  for the same
>price, delivered, but then I have to pay to have it filled.

I seem to recall that the deposit in my area was around $75 (although they 
just took mine in trade) and a fill is around $15.

cheers,
mike
Monterey, CA 



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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:09:38 -0500
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: re: Under-counter fridge & tap assembly

>My idea is to get some PVC tube long enough to reach and then put 
>rubber gaskets around each end. But how do I connect the tube & gasket 
>to the fridge and the top of the counter tight enough to create a tight 
>seal against the inside of the fridge and the top of the counter?

In the electrical accessories section of your hardware store you can get a
small brick of a non-hardening, non-staining filled putty, branded 'Duxseal,'
but universally called 'monkeyshit.'

Fwiw, it's not crystal clear why you would need an airtight seal at either
end.  Particularly at the fridge end, your concern is going to be to provide a
grommet around the cut edges of the hole in the sheetmetal shell so that the
tubing is protected from chafing.  If you choose the grommet (Radio Shack) to
provide a fair fit on the tubing, then cold air loss will really be
negligible.  Concerns about condensation on the beerline are best met by
sleeving the line as the very last step, after its length has been finalized.
(You may want to provide enough slack to permit operating the system with the
fridge temporarily pulled out and accessible, then pull rhe excess back into
the fridge as it goes under the counter. Further, there are benefits to a
longer line.) Strips of rag and bits of masking tape worked for me.

gds, stencil


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:09:41 -0800
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Course for homebrewers 

The Siebel Institute of Technology gets a lot of inquiries from homebrewers
asking if we offer any courses specifically about advanced homebrewing. We
are planning to introduce our first course specifically for homebrewers, and
we would like to hear from those in the homebrewing community with
suggestions for the content of this course.

Our initial plan is to create a program that is one week or less in
duration. We would use a mix of basic and advanced homebrewing equipment,
and take advantage of facilities in local small breweries to experience
practical demonstrations of larger-scale brewing. To make sure that we
maximize the pace of this course, our only prerequisite would be that
students have a basic understanding of the homebrewing process either
through homebrewing experience or study of basic homebrewing via the web or
textbooks.

Please let us know any of your thoughts and ideas about how we can design a
course that will give homebrewers the skills they need to improve the
quality of their beer and their brewing techniques. You can send your
comments by e-mail before Monday, February 16th to Keith Lemcke at
klemcke at siebelinstitute.com .

Thank you from the Siebel Institute of Technology, America's oldest brewing
school.



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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:41:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Grudzinski <tgrudzin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:McGinty's Irish-American Red Ale

Jeff,
According to your recipe and yeast choice, the numbers
don't match.

"McGinty's Irish-American Red Ale
5.25 gallons  at  1.044/ FG 1.015 
Irish Ale yeast or any ale yeast (I prefer more
flavorful yeasts than 
1056)."

According to the numbers I calculated, (by hand)the
two liquid Irish type yeast put the FG right about
1.011. Is 1.105 Correct? I plan to make the beer
anyway, as I still judge by taste, not hydrometer, but
I was curious about your 1.015 numbers. Does the
flaked barley add unfermentables that will keep the
numbers high?

Ted




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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:28:02 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Wiring a washing machine motor

>From: Kevin McDonough <kmcdonou at nmu.edu>
>
>...There are five wires: red, blue,
>black, green, yellow, and orange.  Which ones do I hook up..

Whew, this can be tricky, but probably can be done.
I looked at your pictures, and my guess is that the wire you call
yellow is probable supposed to be white. It's probably yellow from age
and pollution.

The motors from Kenmore machines have white, blue, and red for the
power input. Use white and blue for low speed, or white and red for
high speed.

What I would suggest is that you carefully examine the push on
terminals to see if scratch marks are present from the original
installation.  If you can see scratch marks for the white tab, and one
or two other tabs, then probably this is a good starting point.  The
other wires are connected to the starting switch and capacitor, so
leave them alone.

Of course one would never tell you to do this - but this is how I do
it. I connect one ac wire to the white terminal, and very carefully
swat the suspected correct other terminal with the second ac power
wire. If I guess wrong, probably only a quick spark will happen. If I
guess correctly, the motor may rotate and  jump voilently for a few
seconds.  This is why I tell you to not do this. If you connect the
wires permanently and you guess wrong, then you can burn out the motor
because you cannot react in time to kill the power (hate to use the
kill word here). I do this because I have the knowledge and experience
to not electrocute myself, but it would not be high on the list of
suggested entertainment. :>))

So, another approach is to call a serviceman for the maker of the
machine if you know what that is. Be nice and patient to him/her, and
be sure to tell him it's for a homebrewing setup. Try to call a used
applicance repair or salvage outfit, and chances if you talk to the
repairman he can tell you exactly what you need to know.

Good luck.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:09:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "A.Ulinskas" <algerdulin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Under-counter fridge & tap assembly

Troy Hakala asks about installing a fridge under his
bar.  I would assume that there is at most a couple of
inches of clearance between the top of the fridge and
the bar.  I would recommend making a collar out of
rigid foam insulation to bridge this gap.  The collar
could be wedged between the fridge and the bar with
the lines routed through the collar.  The fridge could
easily be removed for maintenance.   

There could be a potential problem in installing a
fridge this way.  Unless the fridge is specifically
designed for under-counter mounting, it probably has
the heat exchange coils on the back.  There must be
good air-circulation around these coils and boxing
them in would be detrimental to the operation of the
fridge.  

On a related note, my brewing partner is near
completion of an awesome bar.  He refrigerated a
fairly large area of it.  What he did was cut away
most of the sides, bottom and top of an old keg fridge
and installed it under the bar with a fan to circulate
the cold air inside and another aid in cooling the
heat-exchanger coils.  He is able to fit 8 kegs in one
section and has another large section that he plans to
build shelves to hold bottles, etc.  

If anyone wants to see some photos of this set-up let
me know.  

Al Ulinskas, 
Torrington CT




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