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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Link of the Week (Bob Devine)
  Plastic fermentor and bleach (Fred Johnson)
  Darkening of partial volume boils (Andrew Tate)
  Goodbye glass... (Bev Blackwood II)
  Still a Long Way to Go ("Stephen Johnson")
  Plastic and bleach ("Dave Draper")
  Plastic and bleach (Jeremy Hansen)
  Re: Aluminum or Steel co2 Tank (Roger Deschner)
  BABBLE Leap Beer Brew Off (val.dan.morey)
  Oh, the beermanity! ("Zemo")
  Re:  circumsizing dip tubes ("Steve Arnold")
  10 gallon soda kegs ("Stephen Rockey")
  Re: Reinheitsgebot ("-S")
  phenolic beer and plastic fermenters ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Re: Reinheitsgebot (zuvaruvi)
  B-L-C ... how nasty is this stuff? (Robert J Haines)
  pulley calcs ("Patrick Hughes")


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Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:42:12 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Link of the Week

This week's link is a collection of articles from the "Mr Wizard"
column from "Brew Your Own" magazine.  Quite a range of
questions and the answers are pretty helpful.

http://byo.com/mrwizard/

Bob Devine


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 06:02:05 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Plastic fermentor and bleach

Jeremy suspects his fermentor stored with bleach in it has caused a 
phenolic taste in his beer and asks if the fermentor can be used again.

I wouldn't throw out that fermentor yet. The chlorine will eventually 
dissipate. Be patient though; it may take months. My first lauter tun 
was originally a pickle bucket. It took a long time for the vinegar 
smell to go away but it eventually did. (Never detected any effect on 
the beer.) You will eventually be able to use your fermentor again.

Don't be too quick to conclude that the problem in your previous batch 
was chlorine. We all want to quickly identify the source of problems 
when they arise.  I've been guilty of thinking I've identified the 
source of a problem before I really have tested it or have considered 
other possibilities. There are other common causes of a phenolic taste. 
Probably the most common cause is a fermentation temperature being too 
high, especially at the time of pitching. If you pitched the yeast 
while the wort was still pretty warm, you'll get that medicinal taste 
and lots of it.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 04:00:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Tate <atate at yahoo.com>
Subject: Darkening of partial volume boils

This topic has been addressed before, but I didn't see
much in the way of replies in the archives.

I brew with extract and do partial volume boils on my
electric stove, somewhere around 3 out of 5 gallons. 
This results in a very dark wort.  Recently I've taken
to placing a bent coat hanger between the kettle and
the heating element, and this seems to help a small
amount.  The beers I make don't taste scorched, in
fact they seem fine other than color.  Even using
Extra Light DME I can't get my beer much lighter than
a dark amber.  

As much as I'd like to move outside and do all grain
full volume gas boils, it isn't a possibility for me
right now.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to
reduce the darkening?  And, could this darkening
result in a higher FG?  Thanks in advance.

Andrew Tate
Boston, MA


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Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:51:22 -0600
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Goodbye glass...

Having had my second "near miss" (3/4" cut on my ankle) with a broken 
carboy, I'm going to be retiring all my glass in the not too distant 
future.  Given that I have to do a lot of lifting & moving of these 
delicate vessels on a regular basis, sooner or later one is going to 
break and I'll get a serious cut.

My question is, apart from all the fancy stainless mini-conicals and 
the all too easily scratched plastic buckets, what are my alternatives 
and what experience have people had with them?  I note with interest 
that plastic carboys are available that are both transparent (What can 
I say? I like to watch...) and similar in size / shape to a glass 
vessel.  Also, I've had several friends remark that they have used 
stainless soda kegs as well.

Thanks!

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com



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Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:52:10 -0600
From: "Stephen Johnson" <sjohnson3 at comcast.net>
Subject: Still a Long Way to Go

To all real ale lovers:
We've still got a long way to go to educate both the media and the
public about what beer is all about. Upon accessing my internet today, I
was greeted by a line on MSN's homepage to learn about "The Proper Way
to Pour  Beer." I just finished reading the piece provided by Better
Homes and Gardens. If any of you care to have a laugh, and then maybe
cry about how misinformed our culture is about beer, go to the following
link:
http://houseandhome.msn.com/food/beerguide0.aspx

Not once are Ale styles mentioned, and the line "Imported beers are
often more bitter than American beers" is particularly laughable. They
obviously are talking only about Budmillercoors beers and have walked
past those many rows of micros in beer coolers in stores around the
country or the thousands of brewpubs in many of our cities. There are
plenty of other inaccuracies to be found in the article. It is truly a
shame...

Steve Johnson
Nashville, TN




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 06:59:04 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Plastic and bleach

Dear Friends,

In #4470 Jeremy attributes perceived phenol issues in his beers with 
sanitizing his plastic fermentor "for too long" with bleach.  Jeremy, how 
long did you soak them?  How strong was your solution?  This would 
really help us understand if it might be "too long".

I've exclusively used plastic fermentors for my entire 12-year, 200+ batch 
brewing life, and sanitized with bleach every time, and never experienced 
any ill effects, nor have I ever heard of such a problem before.  My typical 
soak times are about half an hour.  I soak with a cool-temperature, weak 
(about one cup in a 6-gallon fermentor) solution, and then rinse with 
warm water.  Higher-temperature water will denature the bleach as well 
as rinse out the solution.

Hope this helps,

Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot Name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html
Pitching your yeast at 70F instead of 90F *does* (in my experience)
improve the taste of your beer. ---John de Carlo






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Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 09:40:23 -0600
From: Jeremy Hansen <cfjh at eiu.edu>
Subject: Plastic and bleach

Thanks for the help thus far.

I've been asked how long I let it soak, and strength of bleach solution. I
had been pretty lax in sanitizing while I cut my teeth with extracts. I
moved on to all grain, so I thought I had better sanitize more thoroughly. I
was trying to follow Papazian's advice, so I think the sanitizing solution
was a few tablespoons of bleach in five gallons. He didn't specify a maximum
time, so I let it sit while I boiled, more than an hour. This was the first
time I had used bleach at all. The resulting batch tasted and smelled
terrible, and the flavor defied description. The next two batches I
sanitized with a stronger solution, thinking it may have been an infection.
Nothing improved. I did find a homebrew page online that described a phenol
taste, and that it can be caused by a soak with bleach longer than 15
minutes. This made sense, and the first batch using Iodophor instead worked
great.

Now I will admit that I made two other changes as well: different bucket,
and I changed my chiller into an immersion chiller. My third batch with
iodophor is aging now, and everything with these three newer batches has
been great. 

My pitching temperature may have been somewhat high, perhaps 85 degrees, but
that has been constant even with these later batches that have been great.
If it is a plastic/bleach reaction, how could I ensure that the original
fermentor is now free of problems?

Thanks very much.

Jeremy



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:23:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Roger Deschner <rogerd at uic.edu>
Subject: Re: Aluminum or Steel co2 Tank

Here in Illinois at least, aluminum tanks need to be pressure tested
every 5 years, and steel tanks every 10 years. Get steel.

Roger Deschner                                            rogerd at uic.edu
== "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy." =
============================= --Tom Waits ==============================


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:13:33 -0600
From: val.dan.morey at juno.com
Subject: BABBLE Leap Beer Brew Off

Reminder, you are invited to participate in the 2004 BABBLE Leap Beer
Brew Off, hosted by The Onion Pub and Brewery in Lake Barrington, IL. 
Entries are being accepted through the 21st of February.

We have great prizes and gifts being provided by our excellent sponsors. 
For details visit:
http://hbd.org/babble/prizes_and_sponsors.htm

If you would like to enter, steward, or judge, please visit our website
for more information:
http://hbd.org/babble/leapbeer2004.htm

Good luck and happy brewing!
Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble/


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:24:59 -0600
From: "Zemo" <zemo at buyvictory.com>
Subject: Oh, the beermanity!

No online digest with my morning cup for two days!
My check's in the mail.

Zemo
[203.6, 263.9 AR]


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:51:57 -0600
From: "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re:  circumsizing dip tubes

I'll have to throw my hat in the ring on the side of not cutting the tube, if
only for one additional reason:  When I purge my keg of sanitizer with CO2
just prior to racking beer into it, I am able to get nearly every last drop of
sanitizer out of the keg without having to up end the keg and lose CO2.
Therefore, I am able to rack without fear of oxygenation, and there is not
enough sanitizer left in the keg to produce the off flavors mentioned a few
weeks ago.  (remember that thread?)

 -Steve Arnold
Fort Smith, Arkansas
(currently sipping a brand new Koelsch and loving it!)




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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:37:57 -0600
From: "Stephen Rockey" <slrjk at egyptian.net>
Subject: 10 gallon soda kegs

Hello,
     I was visiting my local homebrew supplier yesterday.  As I was leaving,
the guy asked if I needed any kegs.  I looked and they were 10 gallon soda
kegs.  He said he paid $50 each for them, but wanted to get rid of them for
$14.99...  I'm not sure what to use them for.  They are too big for me to
use as beer kegs.  The price seems pretty decent.  I searched the web and
found a few people using them for fermenters which sounds like a good idea
if you can find someone who has the welding knowledge to convert one.

	From the other side, would it be worth my time to buy and sell them?

		Thanks,

		Steve in S. Illinois




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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:11:18 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Reinheitsgebot

Chad says Dave says of Reinheitsgebot ...

> The law has to be one of the first ordinances controlling the
> quality of food and drink in the whole world....

Such a wretched misunderstanding !!  Reinheitsgebot *REDUCES* beer quality
and restricts brewer creativity !

It's downright weird that historical law is viewed thru' rose colored
glasses while modern law and politics with cynical eyes.   I'd suggest that
human nature, intelligence and even political machinations haven't changed
more than a jot since cave dwellers began telling each other how to live.

Reinheitsgebot certainly includes a "purity" clause that requires beer to
include only water, hops and malt (no yeast please!), *but* 80% of
Reinheitsgebot involves the government creation of price caps for beer in
Bavaria.  It's net effect could only reduce beer quality.  If you find a
Bavarian brewer who claims to follow Reinheitsgebot, I'd suggest you stock
up.  Aside from Marzen, their beers must sell at either 1 cent or 2 cents
per mug (just over a liter) depending on the season !

Beyond  pricing, I still can't see that restricting the ingredients to
water, hops and malt has any positive implications for quality.   OK it
keeps the cabbage, pumpkins and peppers out of beer, but it also prevents
the use of unmalted adjunct, sugars, spices and fruits which can be used in
very high quality beer.  Are the unfettered Belgian brewers making lower
quality beer than Bavarians ?   I don't think so, but they certainly are
producing far more varied and creative styles.

As for being the oldest beer law - a 1290 Nuremberg law forbade the use of
rye, oats and wheat in brewing in order to preserve these grains for baking.
There is evidence of brewing in Europe ~800BC or a bit earlier and I suspect
the 'lawyers' of the era must have created some pointless busybody civil
restrictions regarding it's creation.  The code of Hammurabi ~2100BC
includes the penalty of drowning the vendor of inferior beer (does Auggie
Busch read this list?).  A bit earlier in Babylon certain types of beer were
reserved for Siris and Ninkasi temple use so brewing restriction must have
existed.

Maybe Chad can address the logic behind Gulatingslov but I expect is was for
the pagan Yule (solstice eve) celebration with perhaps religious
proscriptions.   I'm a little amused at Chad's contention that Christianity
supplanted the northern pagan mid-winter fest.    Personally I think that
Christianity has only made a small dent.  The Midwinter fest is still full
of Yule elves (tho' now carrying Christian names like SantaClaus), yule
logs, wassail, mulled wine, caroling, the use of evergreens, misletoe, holly
all with associations pagan custom; Thor, Freya but also Odin and Balder as
well as druidic practice.   Thor(aka Donner)'s  flying wagon pulled by a
team of horned goats becomes a sleigh pulled by a reindeer (one named
Donner) !  Odin's penchant for leaving gifts for children is taken up by
S.Claus.  Balder's death from misletoe at the hands of his brother and
eventual rebirth, like the Christian story, echoes the astronomical change
from a receding sun to an approaching one.   Even the Germanic custom of
eating pork at new years connects directly with Freya and the boar
symbology.    Norse 'yule', Anglo-Saxon 'geol' and the Germanic 'weh'
solstice fests share a lot in common.   My observation is that Christian
influence at mid-winter ranks third after pagan and commercial aspects of
the holidays

 -S





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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:58:59 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: phenolic beer and plastic fermenters

Brewsters,

Jeremy Hansen, a new All-grainer, is worried that the phenolic taste to his
beers was due to the fact that he used chlorine bleach to clean his
fermenters. Switching to B-brite and a new fermenter his problems have
disappeared.  He wants to know if he can use his old fermenter?

Despite what you have read ( where? I've never seen anything on this)  I know
of no such proof and after a few decades of brewing in plastic and using
bleach exclusively I can guarantee any phenolic tastes you are getting is not
from the fermenter if it is made of polyethylene as most and mine are.

I assume that after the chlorine bleach use that you are rinsing your
fermenter with very hot water to remove all the bleach?  If not, that is
likely your problem. The drip dry sanitizers shouldn't cause this kind of
problem.

Also, being new to the all grain business perhaps you are oxidizing your hot
wort, perhaps by recycling it during the sparging?  That could also give you a
phenolic taste and cause your beer to stale soon. Under no circumstances
should hot wort be mixed with air.

To answer your question, I am pretty sure your old  polyethylene fermenter is
OK to use. And so is bleach if you rinse it out.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:34:00 -0500
From: zuvaruvi at cox.net
Subject: Re: Re: Reinheitsgebot

http://www.beercook.com/articles/aassjuleol.htm

Can't find what I was looking for but this gets you in the groove at any rate.  Aass yuleol doesn't come close to being a historical representation of the style; it's a bock.

Don't even want to touch the Christianity thing; this is HBD afterall.  You really do love to stir the shit don't you Steven.

Chad
> 
> From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
> Date: 2004/02/08 Sun PM 04:11:18 EST
> To: "Posting Address Only - No Requests" <homebrew at hbd.org>
> CC: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>, 
> 	"Wes Smith" <wsmith at acenet.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Reinheitsgebot
> 
> Chad says Dave says of Reinheitsgebot ...
> 
> > The law has to be one of the first ordinances controlling the
> > quality of food and drink in the whole world....
> 
> Such a wretched misunderstanding !!  Reinheitsgebot *REDUCES* beer quality
> and restricts brewer creativity !
> 
> It's downright weird that historical law is viewed thru' rose colored
> glasses while modern law and politics with cynical eyes.   I'd suggest that
> human nature, intelligence and even political machinations haven't changed
> more than a jot since cave dwellers began telling each other how to live.
> 
> Reinheitsgebot certainly includes a "purity" clause that requires beer to
> include only water, hops and malt (no yeast please!), *but* 80% of
> Reinheitsgebot involves the government creation of price caps for beer in
> Bavaria.  It's net effect could only reduce beer quality.  If you find a
> Bavarian brewer who claims to follow Reinheitsgebot, I'd suggest you stock
> up.  Aside from Marzen, their beers must sell at either 1 cent or 2 cents
> per mug (just over a liter) depending on the season !
> 
> Beyond  pricing, I still can't see that restricting the ingredients to
> water, hops and malt has any positive implications for quality.   OK it
> keeps the cabbage, pumpkins and peppers out of beer, but it also prevents
> the use of unmalted adjunct, sugars, spices and fruits which can be used in
> very high quality beer.  Are the unfettered Belgian brewers making lower
> quality beer than Bavarians ?   I don't think so, but they certainly are
> producing far more varied and creative styles.
> 
> As for being the oldest beer law - a 1290 Nuremberg law forbade the use of
> rye, oats and wheat in brewing in order to preserve these grains for baking.
> There is evidence of brewing in Europe ~800BC or a bit earlier and I suspect
> the 'lawyers' of the era must have created some pointless busybody civil
> restrictions regarding it's creation.  The code of Hammurabi ~2100BC
> includes the penalty of drowning the vendor of inferior beer (does Auggie
> Busch read this list?).  A bit earlier in Babylon certain types of beer were
> reserved for Siris and Ninkasi temple use so brewing restriction must have
> existed.
> 
> Maybe Chad can address the logic behind Gulatingslov but I expect is was for
> the pagan Yule (solstice eve) celebration with perhaps religious
> proscriptions.   I'm a little amused at Chad's contention that Christianity
> supplanted the northern pagan mid-winter fest.    Personally I think that
> Christianity has only made a small dent.  The Midwinter fest is still full
> of Yule elves (tho' now carrying Christian names like SantaClaus), yule
> logs, wassail, mulled wine, caroling, the use of evergreens, misletoe, holly
> all with associations pagan custom; Thor, Freya but also Odin and Balder as
> well as druidic practice.   Thor(aka Donner)'s  flying wagon pulled by a
> team of horned goats becomes a sleigh pulled by a reindeer (one named
> Donner) !  Odin's penchant for leaving gifts for children is taken up by
> S.Claus.  Balder's death from misletoe at the hands of his brother and
> eventual rebirth, like the Christian story, echoes the astronomical change
> from a receding sun to an approaching one.   Even the Germanic custom of
> eating pork at new years connects directly with Freya and the boar
> symbology.    Norse 'yule', Anglo-Saxon 'geol' and the Germanic 'weh'
> solstice fests share a lot in common.   My observation is that Christian
> influence at mid-winter ranks third after pagan and commercial aspects of
> the holidays
> 
> -S
> 
> 
> 
> 



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:54:07 -0500
From: Robert J Haines <bjhaines at juno.com>
Subject: B-L-C ... how nasty is this stuff?

Good day everyone!
I had been putting off cleaning my beer lines, but
finally got the stuff I needed and I cleaned 'em
yesterday.  The kit I purchased included a quart
of National Chemical's B-L-C (Beer Line Cleaner)
 ... probably enough for years of home use.  The
warnings in the directions sure got my attention, but
I paid attention to them (safety eyewear and gloves),
and I'm still alive.  But I was curious, so I looked for
the MSDS and found one at:

http://www.inlandreno.com/pdf/m130003500.pdf

I paid enough attention in chemistry class to know that
strong acids and strong bases are both fairly bad for
you.  Duh.  But seriously, I don't know enough to figure
out just *how* caustic this stuff is. I'd really appreciate
it if someone who has the background could give some
practical advice on how cautious I need to be when
working with it  (in concentrated form, and in the normal
working solution of 2/5 oz B-L-C per quart of water).

Thanks in advance!

Bob Haines

P.S.  I haven't had the time to brew lately, but the
converted fridge does have other benefits.  For the
past few months it's been set up for commercial
kegs.  I do heartily recommend the Kegman ...
http://kegman.net/beer_tap.htm  (NAYY, JASC)
to anyone who might need the bits-n-pieces to
do this.  Most likely they've got all of the stuff
you need, and great service.


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Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:10:25 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: pulley calcs

Rickdude asks about the relationship between motor and pulley. To determine
the diameter of the driven pulley which is what you need to do to slow down.
your motor to run the mill, the Driven Pulley Diameter = Driving pulley
diameter x Driving RPM divided by Driven RPM. Figure out what the mill
manufacturers recomendations are for mill speed that is the # you would use
for Driven RPM.  The motor should be marked for RPM. If you are already set
up with both your pulleys but don't know what speed your grinding at you can
figure the driven pulley rpm = driving pulley diameter x driving rpm divided
by driven pulley diameter.
Patrick Hughes




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---