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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Recipes Unchanged for Steeping vs. Mashing (John Palmer)
  Reinheitsgebot it's not ("Phil Yates")
  Phosphate Buffers ("A.J deLange")
  High Gravity Yeast Health and Generations (gornicwm)
  Covering starter containers ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Monitoring CO2 Production with a Mass Flow Meter ("Ken")
  The  Dreaded Clinitest Thread.... ("H. Dowda")
  Counterflow Chiller (Tim & Cindy Howe)
  Thanks!  (was:  BLC) (Robert J Haines)
  Yeast Collection Looking for Home (Jim Liddil)
  bottling from kegs ("Steve Arnold")
  RE: Subject: Keg Conversion ("charlybill")


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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:24:33 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Recipes Unchanged for Steeping vs. Mashing

Bill asks why most recipes don't change the amount of specialty grain 
used between recipes that are steeped vs. those that mash the specialty 
grain.
Yes, you do get more extract yield (higher efficiency if you will) from 
mashing the specialty grain, but I think the real reason that no one 
seems to bother scaling the recipes differently is that it's "close 
enough". A half pound of Crystal 60 is going to taste pretty similar 
whether you steep or mash, and even if you disagree, the cause of a 
difference in flavor may be another aspect of the recipe or brewday. 
Thus, my opinion of "close enough".
And even though I am an engineer, I don't brew that way. If I have 
measured out a half pound, and there is a handful left in the bag, it's 
going in too. So, a half pound can almost be regarded as a euphemism 
for however-much-you-happen-to-have. ;-)
Good Brewing,
John

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:33:19 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Reinheitsgebot it's not 

What an extraordinary account of German history (pertaining to beer) by
Steve Alexander. I don't know where you find the time Steve, but obviously
you've been doing a lot of reading.

I found two comments most interesting:
>Heavy metals, vegetables and poultry don't belong in quality beer,
and:
>RHG stifles creativity but does not result in demonstrably better quality !

So who decides just what should and shouldn't be in quality beer? I can't
see anything wrong with sticking the odd chook in the cask when making Cock
Ale, as per Edward Spencer's book published in 1899. Can't see anything
wrong with whacking a wombat in there either, if I ever get the opportunity.

I'm not sure Steve if you aren't positioning yourself to be judge and jury
on such matters. But putting that aside, you've put in a lot of work
regarding Reinheitsgebot. Certainly too, you've made your attitude towards
laws (old and new) quite clear.

Phil





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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:02:13 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Phosphate Buffers

Phosphate buffers are widely used and should do a wonderful job of 
setting the pH of deionized water to right where the buffer is designed 
for. In brewing I'd have my doubts. If the water contains any calcium 
it will coalesce with phosphate and precipitate. Even though the amount 
of phosphate present at pH 5.2 is tiny calcium phosphate is extremely 
insoluble (pKs = 32.6) and so will precipitate causing conversion of 
dibasic phosphate to tribasic, monobasic to dibasic in so on. When the 
smoke clears water of hardness of about 100 ppm as CaCO3 can contain 
but E-10 moles (approximately) phosphate. Water half this hard about 3 
times that much. The implication is that if you add a tablespoon of 
phosphate salts to you water it will precipitate to the extent that 
there is calcium present in the wate to combine with it. In other words 
it will soften your water and, as those of you who remember highschool 
chemistry know, phosphates were used for exactly that purpose until 
eutrophication of the nations waterways became a concern.

I'd give this one a pass.

A.J.



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:59:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: gornicwm at earthlink.net
Subject: High Gravity Yeast Health and Generations

A club member of mine brewed a belgian trippel with a slurry
of yeast from another member who also brewed...Yep, a trippel.  

Two BIG beers in a row!!!

The member that used the slurry is experiencing stuck fermentation 
(In my opinion) even after preparing a proper, active starter for the trippel.

Need more info?  The beer started at 1.100 og and after 2 weeks is at 1.050.

On to the question/questions:

How many generations can you use yeast when brewing? When brewing high
gravity brews?

- ----------------
My Advice: Personally, I brew a small beer and then a BIG beer and toss the 
yeast after the big beer.  
- ----------------

However, is the cake from the BIG brew STILL viable?  How Long?  
How many generatinons?  What about exhaustion?

If I "happened" to be a Belgian Trippel fan, how can I ensure a viable personal 
supply of yeast from batch to batch without spending a small fortune on 
fresh tubes and vials of liquid yeast every other batch?

I know about yeast washing and acid washing, but will this add generations to my
yeast cake?

How do breweries do it????

Lots of questions...and I am sure that there are several factors involved. 

Just looking for some guidelines...

Thanks in advance,

Bill Gornicki
CRAFT Homebrew Club
Michigan


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:14:09 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Covering starter containers

What would be a good material to cover starter containers that allows air to
pass but no contaminants?  In labs, sterilized cotton balls are used, but
they don't make cotton balls big enough to cover either of my starter
containers (2000ml flasks & beakers).  Would some sort of muslin or cotton
fabric soaked in alcohol and secured with a rubber band be sufficient?  Or
is there some specialized material for this?  I was leaning towards a couple
of layers of coffee filters soaked in vodka.

I suppose I could fabricate some sort of lid with hole to accept smaller
cotton wads, but I would prefer to have the largest surface for air contact
as possible.



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:59:45 -0500
From: "Ken" <kapna at adelphia.net>
Subject: Monitoring CO2 Production with a Mass Flow Meter

Hi all,
I thought it might be interesting to monitor the rate of CO2 production during
a fermentation, so I purchased a mass flow meter and recently produced this
graph:   http://users.adelphia.net/~aken75/
I posted the link on the rcb and B&V. It received a small amount of interest,
an equal amount of indignation, and a goodly amount of indifference!  The idea
behind this effort is that, of the three main results of fermentation that
concern us (sugar depletion, alcohol production, and CO2 production), why not
look at CO2 production as a brewing aid?  The area under the curve of the
graph tells you the total CO2 produced.  The shape of the curve may yield
useful information, too.  From left to right I see a lag-time, a short
exponential period, a linearly increasing stage, a peak, a linear decline,
then an inverse proportion.  The end of the graph might give you and excellent
idea of when to rack to secondary, if you're looking for a bit of remaining
CO2 production to supply protection in the carboy, for example.  Also, a
simple equation may be possible, relating CO2 production, specific gravity
change, and wort volume.  The most surprising thing about this graph is the
pretty much linear increase from hour 16 to 42, and the lack of a plateau.  I
thought someone here might be able to relate the sections of this graph with
the typical stages of yeast growth.  In particular, what's with hours 16
through 42?
>
Ken Anderson
>
"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer.
Oh I grant you the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go
nearly as well with pizza." - Dave Barry



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:50:03 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: The  Dreaded Clinitest Thread....

ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHH...it's baaaaaacccccck



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:10:49 -0500
From: Tim & Cindy Howe <howe at execulink.com>
Subject: Counterflow Chiller

I was in a hardware store today, and they had a selection of 25ft copper 
coils, starting at 1/4" for $8.99 and going up to at least 1/2" with a few 
sizes in between.

Hmmm, says I, what could I possibly do with 2 sizes of ready coiled copper 
tubing....

So anyhew, now that I'm pondering a counterflow chiller, a few questions 
come to mind.

Any opinions on:

a) minimum diameter for the inner tube

b) minimum diameter for the outer tube

c) size differential between the two sizes

I'm thinking 1/4'' inner 3/8" outer or 3/8" inner 1/2" outer. I haven't 
looked into fittings/adapters etc  and that may be a factor as well.

Oh yeah, one other question: Is natural gas pipe suitable for brewing? Most 
of this stuff is labelled "general use" which probably means it hasn't been 
treated for gas, but it is in the same general area as the gas stuff....

Thanks to anyone that has any thoughts....

Cheers,

Tim



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:03:11 -0500
From: Robert J Haines <bjhaines at juno.com>
Subject: Thanks!  (was:  BLC)

Hi Brian,
Thanks for the "useless anecdotal advice."  Actually, you
provided exactly what I was looking for ... confirmation that
a little splash of the stuff won't instantly turn me into a
skeleton.

Barring any of those spastic fits, I'm still going to refrain from
bathing in it.

Have a great day!
Bob Haines



On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:50:08 -0600 "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
writes:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:54:07 -0500
> > From: Robert J Haines <bjhaines at juno.com>
> > Subject: B-L-C ... how nasty is this stuff?
> > 
> I'd really appreciate
> > it if someone who has the background could give some
> > practical advice on how cautious I need to be when
> > working with it  (in concentrated form, and in the normal 
> > working solution of 2/5 oz B-L-C per quart of water).
> > 
> 
> Well, Bob, I don't have The Background(tm) but that's never stopped 
> me
> from providing useless anecdotal advice on pretty much any topic.
> 
> I wear neither gloves nor eye protection while handling the stuff, 
> but
> then, I'm not prone to spastic fits that would cause me to hurl the
> container toward my face (which is not to say that you do). I treat 
> the
> concentrate with respect, I try not to touch the stuff, but if I err 
> on
> the side of clumsy, it's no big deal to get a little on my hands 
> (at
> least it didn't bother me). I just go wash it off. The eyes and 
> mouth I
> can see wanting to keep it away from.
> 
> In its dilute form, it seems to cause me no problems. It just feels
> slippery more than anything.
> 
> Cheers
> Brian, in Winnipeg
> 
> 


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:55:43 -0500
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at liddil.com>
Subject: Yeast Collection Looking for Home

Some folks may remember me.  After moving to the east coast I have not been 
brewing for a while and my career path has taken me out of being a bench 
scientist.  I have a rather extensive collection of yeasts that have been 
in -80C storage for a few years.  I have no idea of the condition of the 
collection.  I am attempting to find a happy home for the collection.  A 
large portion are Belgian yeasts and lambic isolates.  Eith I am going to 
give it away or I'm open to selling it to commercial enterprises as well.

Jim Liddil


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:11:41 -0600
From: "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com>
Subject: bottling from kegs

HBD traffic seems a little low, and I have a topic, so here goes:

I have brewed several beers lately and kegged all of them.  In preparing for
the upcoming Gulf Coast competition season, I tried to rack beer from my keg
directly to bottles.  I don't have a counter-pressure filler, and I have heard
of brewers simply attaching their spring loaded bottle filler to the picnic
tap and dispensing from the keg into the bottles.  Sure, you lose a little
carbonation in the transfer, but aside from a little (quickly recovered and
consumed) overflow it seems to work ok.  I had some trouble with one keg
because it wouldn't hold pressure below say, 10 psi, so I'll have to consider
other options for that one - maybe take the lid off and rack using a siphon.

Anyway - has anyone else tried to avoid using the counter pressure bottle
filler?   Is it better to just buy the CPBF?  What are your experiences?

Eagerly awaiting your replies (and sipping an APA that puts me in absolute
bliss),
 -Steve Arnold
Fort Smith, Arkansas




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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:43:06 -0600
From: "charlybill" <charlybill at prodigy.net>
Subject: RE: Subject: Keg Conversion

I am behind on my HBD's but thought I would comment.
I feel it would be better to use a pipe collar (female threads) rather than
a nipple (male threads). With male threads exposed there is a greater risk
of damaging the threads while the female threads are much better protected,
and you can add whatever appliances you desire.
Hope this helps,
Charlie Walker
Lancaster, TX
North Texas Homebrewers

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:44:38 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Keg Conversion

Procrastination has paid off . I found a welder who needed my services
before I needed his. I love the barter system. So I am converting a keg to a
HLT.
I am thinking that instead of cutting the threads off of one end of a nipple
and welding it flush with the outside of a keg I will push the threads thru
the hole into the inside of the keg just in case I ever wanted to use these
threads for future connection of something inside the keg. I am a believer
in allowing room for future expansion when building anything. Does anyone
see a problem with this?
Another ?
Can I cut the entire top off of a keg, not just the inner circle but the
entire top. Wiil the keg top become too flimsy? The keg is too tall for my
stand.
A good example of not leaving room for future expansion skewers me again.
Patrick Hughes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>



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