---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                  Beer, Beer, and More Beer
      Visit http://morebeer.com to show your appreciation!

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  re: Reinheitsgebot it's not (Dane Mosher)
  re: High Gravity Yeast (Dane Mosher)
  Re: Covering starter containers (Fred Johnson)
  Bottling w/o CPF (Bev Blackwood II)
  High gravity yeast generations (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Monitoring CO2 Production with a Mass Flow Meter (Jeff Renner)
  How much crystal malt is too much? ("Pat and Debbie")
  Subject: B-L-C ... how nasty is this stuff? ("Keith Lemcke")
  stuck ferm ("Jay Spies")
  Re: CO2 chart (joseph540)
  residual alkalinity ("Todd Carlson")
  Re: Covering starter containers (mjkid)
  geek alert (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Bottling from kegs (mjkid)
  Cooling Coils & Pressure Calculations ("Michael Noah")
  Re:Counterflow chiller (Kent Fletcher)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Spencer Thomas (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:27:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Reinheitsgebot it's not 

Phil Yates says: 

"So who decides just what should and shouldn't be in
quality beer? I can't see anything wrong with sticking
the odd chook in the cask when making Cock Ale, as per
Edward Spencer's book published in 1899. Can't see
anything wrong with whacking a wombat in there either,
if I ever get the opportunity."

I say go for it.  Samuel Adams brewed a cock ale not
too long ao.  If you can find people who will pay you
money for wombat beer, then what's the problem?  Keep
in mind that if you poison your customers, they will
sue you and spread the word.

Steve A. is absolutely right.  There's no need for
RHG, because there's no profit in food poisoning. 
Great contribution, Steve!

Dane Mosher
Fort Worth, TX



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:11:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: High Gravity Yeast

Bill Gornicki asks about reusing yeast from high
gravity (Belgian Trippel) fermentations:

I'm no authority on Belgian brewing, but I do know
that you never reuse yeast after a high gravity
fermentation (> 16 Plato).  Acid washing is no help. 
The yeast is spent.  I'm sure others know the details
better than me, but I recall something about petite
mutant cells becoming too numerous, which might
explain Bill's friend's poor attenuation. 

Belgian breweries are surely getting the yeast for the
Trippels from their lower alcohol offerings.

In general, you can reuse yeast from low gravity
fermentations many times, depending on how clean you
keep things.  Homebrewers are often advised to limit
it to 3 generations because of poorer sanitation.  (I
suspect that small contaminations have a greater
effect on the small volumes of yeast that homebrewers
deal with.)  Pros can easily get 10 generations.  More
generations than that, and the gradual mutations in
the yeast will add up to a new flavor profile.  BTW, I
speak only of ale microbreweries.  Not sure if the
same holds true of lagers or megabatches.

A few years ago, I heard of a brewpub that repitched
indefinitely--more than 100 batches--and claimed to
have great beer.  Maybe so, but that yeast was surely
a long way away from where it started.  Their
customers were probably in for a shock if the place
ever had to start over with fresh yeast.

Dane Mosher
Fort Worth, TX



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:02:31 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: Covering starter containers

Rob asks what to use to cover a flask or beaker used as a starter 
container.

Regarding your post to cover starter containers, I've often used a 
square of aluminum foil large enough to come down an inch or two over 
the neck of the flask--I haven't used beakers. This "cap" forms an 
effective barrier to airborne contaminants by the same principal as a 
Petri dish. You can flame the inside of the cap and the rim of the 
starter flask every time you have to break the barrier.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:10:25 -0600
From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com>
Subject: Bottling w/o CPF

Steve Arnold wondered whether anyone had any issues with bottling from 
a "picnic tap."  Not me!  I've won at competitions from coast to coast 
doing just that.  It's fast and most of all far less frustrating than 
the CPF experience. (Thankfully my kitchen ceiling is "wipeable."  I 
once coated a good 1/2 the room in Imperial Stout.)   I am sure I have  
lost a point or two here and there on carbonation, but as long as the 
flavor and aroma are still in good shape, there's no reason to worry.

Best of luck at Bluebonnet & we'll be looking for you come Dixie Cup!

 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
Co-Competition Coordinator
The Foam Rangers
http://www.foamrangers.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:43:21 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: High gravity yeast generations

Bill asked how you keep a yeast strain going after brewing a high
gravity beer like a tripel.

When I brew a big beer, I always brew a smaller beer (~1.050) first,
using the same yeast. I then pitch a portion of the dregs of the smaller
beer into the big beer. Even if you were to use all of the dregs from
the smaller beer, you can withold a tiny bit and add some wort to it and
store it in a canning jar in your fridge to keep the strain going. Or,
you can look at it another way: If you bottled that first, lower gravity
batch, you now have about 50 starters of the yeast for future batches.

Randy Ricchi
Hancock, Michigan



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:22:15 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Monitoring CO2 Production with a Mass Flow Meter

Ken Anderson <kapna at adelphia.net> wrote that he

>thought it might be interesting to monitor the rate of CO2 production during
>a fermentation

I like this.  Thanks.  I look forward to discussion from the 
scientists among us (A.J., -S, Frederick?).

A few things - you didn't mention so I will that the first production 
of CO2 will be absorbed by the wort/beer until saturation is reached. 
It would be trivial to compute how much this would be and you could 
interpolate back to before CO2 actually evolves.  I'm not sure when 
this actually starts.

It would be interesting to make a parallel graph of specific gravity 
or, better yet, actual extract.  I don't suppose you're interested in 
doing this and reporting back?

You can see such a graph at the Lallemand web site 
http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/danstar.html for their 
Windsor and Nottingham yeasts.  The pdf graph for Nottingham is at 
http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/PDF/Fiches%20NOTTINGHAM%20av03.pdf.

It includes plots for three data: extract, pH and a third value that 
I don't recognize, "CiS [Mio./m]" (can someone explain what this is?).

One of the interesting things I've gleaned from these is that Windsor 
is really fast and Nottingham ferments down a few more points.  I 
recently made an American brown ale with a good bit of Munich and 
crystal malt which fermented down from 1.048 to only 1.022 with 
Windsor (my first use of dry yeast in some time), so I repitched some 
fresh Nottingham which took it down to 1.015-16.

What yeast did you use and what was your final SG?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:35:10 -0600
From: "Pat and Debbie" <reddydp at charter.net>
Subject: How much crystal malt is too much?

I've designed a recipe within the style guidelines for an Amber Ale using
ProMash.
My SG, color, and IBUs are right in line.  My concern is that I have created
an overly malty, potentially super-sweet beer because of my liberal use of
carmel and honey malt.
Typically I brew with only 2-3 malts but I want to try something a little
more complex so I've let it all hang out this time.
Looking at the following grain bill, does anyone think I'm in over my head
in the specialty grain department?  Thanks.

Amber Ale - 10 gallons - 75% Efficiency
10 lb. 2-row
4.75 lb. pale
1.75 lb. honey malt
1.3 lb. crystal 60L
 .85 lb. crystal 40L
 .85 lb. Munich
 .05 lb. chocolate malt

90 minute boil
Willamette 18.8 IBU  at  60 min.
Cascade  1.7 IBU  at  30 min.
Tettnanger  4 IBU  at  30 min.
Tettnanger  1.6 IBU  at  10 min.
Tettnanger  0 IBU  at  Dry

12.3 SRM
26.1 IBU

American Ale II yeast
SRM 12.3
SG 1.052

Thanks in advance!
- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.588 / Virus Database: 372 - Release Date: 2/13/2004



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:03:39 -0600
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Subject: B-L-C ... how nasty is this stuff?

Please wear safety goggles when using BLC or any other line cleaning
solution!

These products contain caustic chemistry (or acid chemistry in the case of
acid-based line cleaners) that can cause eye damage in either high or low
concentrations. If you are using any sort of pressurized line cleaning
device (including hand-pump plastic pots), an errant spray can cause the
fluid to go into your eyes. The Draught Beer Guild advocates adherence to
all manufacturers guidelines for cleaning products, whether they regard
technical practice (such as temperature range) or personal safety.


The National Chemical web site at www.natlchem.com lists the MSDS safety
sheets for all their products, as well as contact info for sales agents that
can answer questions about safe handling of chemistry.

Keith Lemcke
Executive Director
Draught Beer Guild



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:16:39 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: stuck ferm

Bill Gornicki laments a stuck ferm on his tripel....


Bill, since you used the slurry from a big beer for this batch, you may have
a lot of non-viable yeast cells, or ones that pooped out quickly.  If there
is a pretty big mass of cells, a simple solution may be to swirl the
fermenter (if that's possible) to resuspend some of the yeast.  Some
perfectly happy yeasties may be stuck under a blanket of whipped ones.  Stir
things up gently and you may free the healthy ones to do some more work.

This may be especially helpful if you're fermenting in the 60's temperature
range......

Just a thought...

Jay Spies
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:18:33 -0800 (PST)
From: joseph540 at elvis.com
Subject: Re: CO2 chart

To my mind, this is kind of cool, Ken -- I'm sure
something like this has been done in the academic
literature; is there anything there that would help in
orienting this as a practical tool?

You said that you get big fluctuations at peak CO2
range, probably from eddies or large bubbles.  Could
you graph the ranges instead of the points?  That is,
produce the curve with vertical lines representing the
range at each time period?  I'm not sure what the range
would tell you, but it might be indicactive of
something.

Joe
Minneapolis

> Original message:
> I thought it might be interesting to monitor the rate
> of CO2 production during a fermentation [...] The idea
> behind this effort is that, of the three main results
> of fermentation that concern us (sugar depletion,
> alcohol production, and CO2 production), why not look
> at CO2 production as a brewing aid?  [...]

Hello?  Hello?  Hello?
- --Joe Broccoli
- -------------------------------------------------
Get your free  at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com!
http://www.elvis.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:17:25 -0500
From: "Todd Carlson" <carlsont at gvsu.edu>
Subject: residual alkalinity

I was trying to sort out some water chemistry issues and  had a question
regarding permanent hardness and residual alkalinity.  I will usually
treat my brewing water (municipal water from lake Michigan) by boiling
to remove chlorine and bicarbonates.  Our water analysis states that
Non-carbonate hardness (calcium not precipitated by boiling) is 35.5
mg/L (as CaCO3).  If I want to calculate the residual alkalinity, would
I assume the alkalinity in now zero or would I use the pre-boiling value
for total alkalinity of 111 mg/L (as CaCO3).  pH is 7.6 so all
alkalinity is bicarbonate.  Is there a way to know the Calcium to
Magnesium ratio in the boiled water.  Prior to boiling I have 39.3 mg/L
Ca (as Ca) and 11.7 mg/L Mg (as Mg).  These correspond to 0.99 mM Ca and
0.48 mM Mg for a Total Hardness of 1.47 mM (or 147 mg/mL CaCO3).  There
isn't enough Ca to precipitate all of the bicarbonate so some is coming
out as insoluble Mg salts.  Is it possible my permanent hardness is due
primarily to Mg rather than Ca?

Thanks

Todd Carlson



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:42:52 -0500
From: mjkid at rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: Covering starter containers

On 17 Feb 2004 at 0:25, "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>:

> What would be a good material to cover starter containers that allows air to
> pass but no contaminants?  In labs, sterilized cotton balls are used, but
> they don't make cotton balls big enough to cover either of my starter
> containers (2000ml flasks & beakers).  Would some sort of muslin or cotton
> fabric soaked in alcohol and secured with a rubber band be sufficient?  Or
> is there some specialized material for this?  I was leaning towards a couple
> of layers of coffee filters soaked in vodka.

B3 (morebeer.com) sells a sanitary filter. It's .023 micron, is 
reusable, and costs only $4.95. It will fit in a standard stopper, 
allowing air to pass but keeping out the nasties. I have two of them, 
one for filtering water when I need sanitary water, and one for 
starters. As long as you have a stopper that fits you starter vessel, 
you're all set. Check the water filter section of the morebeer 
website.

NAYY

Mike Kidulich
Rochester, NY





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:44:15 -0500
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: geek alert

Why do yeast undergo autolysis?  New research (the whole article costs 
money, but you can read the abstract):
http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/4/501
commentary on the article:
http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/full/164/4/477
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:04:29 -0500
From: mjkid at rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: Bottling from kegs

On 17 Feb 2004 at 0:25, "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com>:

> I have brewed several beers lately and kegged all of them.  In preparing for
> the upcoming Gulf Coast competition season, I tried to rack beer from my keg
> directly to bottles.  I don't have a counter-pressure filler, and I have heard
> of brewers simply attaching their spring loaded bottle filler to the picnic
> tap and dispensing from the keg into the bottles. 

I find myself in the same position, and a friend told me about this 
method of bottling from kegs that works quite well. I think it was 
from one of the brewing mags, but I don't recall which one. Anyway, 
sanitize some bottles. Fill said bottles with sanitary water (boiled 
and cooled, or filtered with a sanitary filter). Cap the bottles, and 
refigerate for several hours or overnight. You will need a length of 
tubing that fits your dispenser, and reaches the bottom of the 
bottles. Uncap and empty the bottles. You want them cold and wet, 
to reduce foaming. Back the serving pressure down to 4-5 lbs (the 
beer should barely come out). If you pull the hose up while you fill, 
you can get the bottle pretty much full. I've entered beers filled this 
way in a couple of competitions, with good results.

You need to make sure your serving lines and taps are clean. I 
sanitize a serving line with a cobra tap and use that for the transfer. 
I had thought about buying a CPBF, but this works well enough for 
me that I don't see the benefit in spending the money.

Mie Kidulich
Rochester, NY





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:31:48 -1000
From: "Michael Noah" <Michael.Noah at noaa.gov>
Subject: Cooling Coils & Pressure Calculations

I am the Beermeister for a "Drinking club with a running problem," better
known as the Hash House Harriers here in Honolulu. We have a pretty simple
beer dispensing system that I have been trying to optimize. I want to
calculate the pressure that I should set my regulator to in order to get the
beer out of the keg but to not over-carbonate the product before we've had a
chance to enjoy the last drop.

We use a jockey box system with two 120-foot coils to dispense one keg each
of a creme ale and a steamship lager. Standard fair, I believe, as I have
seen this system offered for sale on a number of websites.

My question is this - when calculating the resistance of the system using
Kegman's formula (kegman.net/balance.html), I calculate that the standard
120-foot cooling coils offered for sale introduce 60 psi of resistance.
That's 100' of 3/8" O.D. Stainless Beverage Tubing providing 100 x 0.2
lbs/ft, or 20 psi of resistance, and 20' of 1/4"O.D. Stainless Beverage
Tubing providing 20 x 2.0 lbs/ft, or 40 psi of resistance. That would seem
to indicate that I have to pressurize my kegs with 60 psi just to overcome
that resistance. Just to complete the picture, we also have 5 feet of 3/8"
tubing for the beer lines, adding another 0.5 psi, and the 1 foot we have
between the top of the keg and the faucet adds another 0.5 psi.

Am I overlooking something here?? That's a lot of CO2 to overcome what looks
to be a standard design for a cooling coil.

Mahalo!!
Michael





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:42:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Counterflow chiller

Tim asked:

>So anyhew, now that I'm pondering a counterflow
chiller,
> a few questions come to mind.

> Any opinions on:

> a) minimum diameter for the inner tube

> b) minimum diameter for the outer tube

> I'm thinking 1/4'' inner 3/8" outer or 3/8" inner 
> 1/2" outer. I haven't looked into fittings/adapters 
> etc and that may be a factor as well.

> Oh yeah, one other question: Is natural gas pipe 
> suitable for brewing? 

Tim, the absolute minimum wort (inner) tube size is
3/8" OD.  If you went with 1/4" it would take foreever
to chill 5 gallons.  Given that, the minimum outer
tube size you owuld want to use is 5/8" OD, and 3/4"
would be better.

As to the last question, what are you asking? 
Suitable to run wort through?  If that's the question,
the answer is certainly not.  The only pipe materials
suitable for wort transfer are stainless steel,
copper, and brass (and machined brass fittings should
be "pickled" to remove surface lead).

Kent Fletcher
Brweing in So Cal



Return to table of contents

---