HOMEBREW Digest #4478 Wed 18 February 2004

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  re: Reinheitsgebot it's not (Dane Mosher)
  re: High Gravity Yeast (Dane Mosher)
  Re: Covering starter containers (Fred Johnson)
  Bottling w/o CPF (Bev Blackwood II)
  High gravity yeast generations (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Monitoring CO2 Production with a Mass Flow Meter (Jeff Renner)
  How much crystal malt is too much? ("Pat and Debbie")
  Subject: B-L-C ... how nasty is this stuff? ("Keith Lemcke")
  stuck ferm ("Jay Spies")
  Re: CO2 chart (joseph540)
  residual alkalinity ("Todd Carlson")
  Re: Covering starter containers (mjkid)
  geek alert (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Bottling from kegs (mjkid)
  Cooling Coils & Pressure Calculations ("Michael Noah")
  Re:Counterflow chiller (Kent Fletcher)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:27:21 -0800 (PST) From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com> Subject: re: Reinheitsgebot it's not Phil Yates says: "So who decides just what should and shouldn't be in quality beer? I can't see anything wrong with sticking the odd chook in the cask when making Cock Ale, as per Edward Spencer's book published in 1899. Can't see anything wrong with whacking a wombat in there either, if I ever get the opportunity." I say go for it. Samuel Adams brewed a cock ale not too long ao. If you can find people who will pay you money for wombat beer, then what's the problem? Keep in mind that if you poison your customers, they will sue you and spread the word. Steve A. is absolutely right. There's no need for RHG, because there's no profit in food poisoning. Great contribution, Steve! Dane Mosher Fort Worth, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:11:46 -0800 (PST) From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com> Subject: re: High Gravity Yeast Bill Gornicki asks about reusing yeast from high gravity (Belgian Trippel) fermentations: I'm no authority on Belgian brewing, but I do know that you never reuse yeast after a high gravity fermentation (> 16 Plato). Acid washing is no help. The yeast is spent. I'm sure others know the details better than me, but I recall something about petite mutant cells becoming too numerous, which might explain Bill's friend's poor attenuation. Belgian breweries are surely getting the yeast for the Trippels from their lower alcohol offerings. In general, you can reuse yeast from low gravity fermentations many times, depending on how clean you keep things. Homebrewers are often advised to limit it to 3 generations because of poorer sanitation. (I suspect that small contaminations have a greater effect on the small volumes of yeast that homebrewers deal with.) Pros can easily get 10 generations. More generations than that, and the gradual mutations in the yeast will add up to a new flavor profile. BTW, I speak only of ale microbreweries. Not sure if the same holds true of lagers or megabatches. A few years ago, I heard of a brewpub that repitched indefinitely--more than 100 batches--and claimed to have great beer. Maybe so, but that yeast was surely a long way away from where it started. Their customers were probably in for a shock if the place ever had to start over with fresh yeast. Dane Mosher Fort Worth, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:02:31 -0500 From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> Subject: Re: Covering starter containers Rob asks what to use to cover a flask or beaker used as a starter container. Regarding your post to cover starter containers, I've often used a square of aluminum foil large enough to come down an inch or two over the neck of the flask--I haven't used beakers. This "cap" forms an effective barrier to airborne contaminants by the same principal as a Petri dish. You can flame the inside of the cap and the rim of the starter flask every time you have to break the barrier. Fred L Johnson Apex, North Carolina, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:10:25 -0600 From: Bev Blackwood II <bdb2 at bdb2.com> Subject: Bottling w/o CPF Steve Arnold wondered whether anyone had any issues with bottling from a "picnic tap." Not me! I've won at competitions from coast to coast doing just that. It's fast and most of all far less frustrating than the CPF experience. (Thankfully my kitchen ceiling is "wipeable." I once coated a good 1/2 the room in Imperial Stout.) I am sure I have lost a point or two here and there on carbonation, but as long as the flavor and aroma are still in good shape, there's no reason to worry. Best of luck at Bluebonnet & we'll be looking for you come Dixie Cup! -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II Co-Competition Coordinator The Foam Rangers http://www.foamrangers.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:43:21 -0500 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us> Subject: High gravity yeast generations Bill asked how you keep a yeast strain going after brewing a high gravity beer like a tripel. When I brew a big beer, I always brew a smaller beer (~1.050) first, using the same yeast. I then pitch a portion of the dregs of the smaller beer into the big beer. Even if you were to use all of the dregs from the smaller beer, you can withold a tiny bit and add some wort to it and store it in a canning jar in your fridge to keep the strain going. Or, you can look at it another way: If you bottled that first, lower gravity batch, you now have about 50 starters of the yeast for future batches. Randy Ricchi Hancock, Michigan Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:22:15 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Monitoring CO2 Production with a Mass Flow Meter Ken Anderson <kapna at adelphia.net> wrote that he >thought it might be interesting to monitor the rate of CO2 production during >a fermentation I like this. Thanks. I look forward to discussion from the scientists among us (A.J., -S, Frederick?). A few things - you didn't mention so I will that the first production of CO2 will be absorbed by the wort/beer until saturation is reached. It would be trivial to compute how much this would be and you could interpolate back to before CO2 actually evolves. I'm not sure when this actually starts. It would be interesting to make a parallel graph of specific gravity or, better yet, actual extract. I don't suppose you're interested in doing this and reporting back? You can see such a graph at the Lallemand web site http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/danstar.html for their Windsor and Nottingham yeasts. The pdf graph for Nottingham is at http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/PDF/Fiches%20NOTTINGHAM%20av03.pdf. It includes plots for three data: extract, pH and a third value that I don't recognize, "CiS [Mio./m]" (can someone explain what this is?). One of the interesting things I've gleaned from these is that Windsor is really fast and Nottingham ferments down a few more points. I recently made an American brown ale with a good bit of Munich and crystal malt which fermented down from 1.048 to only 1.022 with Windsor (my first use of dry yeast in some time), so I repitched some fresh Nottingham which took it down to 1.015-16. What yeast did you use and what was your final SG? Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:35:10 -0600 From: "Pat and Debbie" <reddydp at charter.net> Subject: How much crystal malt is too much? I've designed a recipe within the style guidelines for an Amber Ale using ProMash. My SG, color, and IBUs are right in line. My concern is that I have created an overly malty, potentially super-sweet beer because of my liberal use of carmel and honey malt. Typically I brew with only 2-3 malts but I want to try something a little more complex so I've let it all hang out this time. Looking at the following grain bill, does anyone think I'm in over my head in the specialty grain department? Thanks. Amber Ale - 10 gallons - 75% Efficiency 10 lb. 2-row 4.75 lb. pale 1.75 lb. honey malt 1.3 lb. crystal 60L .85 lb. crystal 40L .85 lb. Munich .05 lb. chocolate malt 90 minute boil Willamette 18.8 IBU at 60 min. Cascade 1.7 IBU at 30 min. Tettnanger 4 IBU at 30 min. Tettnanger 1.6 IBU at 10 min. Tettnanger 0 IBU at Dry 12.3 SRM 26.1 IBU American Ale II yeast SRM 12.3 SG 1.052 Thanks in advance! - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.588 / Virus Database: 372 - Release Date: 2/13/2004 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:03:39 -0600 From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com> Subject: Subject: B-L-C ... how nasty is this stuff? Please wear safety goggles when using BLC or any other line cleaning solution! These products contain caustic chemistry (or acid chemistry in the case of acid-based line cleaners) that can cause eye damage in either high or low concentrations. If you are using any sort of pressurized line cleaning device (including hand-pump plastic pots), an errant spray can cause the fluid to go into your eyes. The Draught Beer Guild advocates adherence to all manufacturers guidelines for cleaning products, whether they regard technical practice (such as temperature range) or personal safety. The National Chemical web site at www.natlchem.com lists the MSDS safety sheets for all their products, as well as contact info for sales agents that can answer questions about safe handling of chemistry. Keith Lemcke Executive Director Draught Beer Guild Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:16:39 -0500 From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com> Subject: stuck ferm Bill Gornicki laments a stuck ferm on his tripel.... Bill, since you used the slurry from a big beer for this batch, you may have a lot of non-viable yeast cells, or ones that pooped out quickly. If there is a pretty big mass of cells, a simple solution may be to swirl the fermenter (if that's possible) to resuspend some of the yeast. Some perfectly happy yeasties may be stuck under a blanket of whipped ones. Stir things up gently and you may free the healthy ones to do some more work. This may be especially helpful if you're fermenting in the 60's temperature range...... Just a thought... Jay Spies Asinine Aleworks Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:18:33 -0800 (PST) From: joseph540 at elvis.com Subject: Re: CO2 chart To my mind, this is kind of cool, Ken -- I'm sure something like this has been done in the academic literature; is there anything there that would help in orienting this as a practical tool? You said that you get big fluctuations at peak CO2 range, probably from eddies or large bubbles. Could you graph the ranges instead of the points? That is, produce the curve with vertical lines representing the range at each time period? I'm not sure what the range would tell you, but it might be indicactive of something. Joe Minneapolis > Original message: > I thought it might be interesting to monitor the rate > of CO2 production during a fermentation [...] The idea > behind this effort is that, of the three main results > of fermentation that concern us (sugar depletion, > alcohol production, and CO2 production), why not look > at CO2 production as a brewing aid? [...] Hello? Hello? Hello? - --Joe Broccoli - ------------------------------------------------- Get your free at Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com! http://www.elvis.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:17:25 -0500 From: "Todd Carlson" <carlsont at gvsu.edu> Subject: residual alkalinity I was trying to sort out some water chemistry issues and had a question regarding permanent hardness and residual alkalinity. I will usually treat my brewing water (municipal water from lake Michigan) by boiling to remove chlorine and bicarbonates. Our water analysis states that Non-carbonate hardness (calcium not precipitated by boiling) is 35.5 mg/L (as CaCO3). If I want to calculate the residual alkalinity, would I assume the alkalinity in now zero or would I use the pre-boiling value for total alkalinity of 111 mg/L (as CaCO3). pH is 7.6 so all alkalinity is bicarbonate. Is there a way to know the Calcium to Magnesium ratio in the boiled water. Prior to boiling I have 39.3 mg/L Ca (as Ca) and 11.7 mg/L Mg (as Mg). These correspond to 0.99 mM Ca and 0.48 mM Mg for a Total Hardness of 1.47 mM (or 147 mg/mL CaCO3). There isn't enough Ca to precipitate all of the bicarbonate so some is coming out as insoluble Mg salts. Is it possible my permanent hardness is due primarily to Mg rather than Ca? Thanks Todd Carlson Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:42:52 -0500 From: mjkid at rochester.rr.com Subject: Re: Covering starter containers On 17 Feb 2004 at 0:25, "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>: > What would be a good material to cover starter containers that allows air to > pass but no contaminants? In labs, sterilized cotton balls are used, but > they don't make cotton balls big enough to cover either of my starter > containers (2000ml flasks & beakers). Would some sort of muslin or cotton > fabric soaked in alcohol and secured with a rubber band be sufficient? Or > is there some specialized material for this? I was leaning towards a couple > of layers of coffee filters soaked in vodka. B3 (morebeer.com) sells a sanitary filter. It's .023 micron, is reusable, and costs only $4.95. It will fit in a standard stopper, allowing air to pass but keeping out the nasties. I have two of them, one for filtering water when I need sanitary water, and one for starters. As long as you have a stopper that fits you starter vessel, you're all set. Check the water filter section of the morebeer website. NAYY Mike Kidulich Rochester, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:44:15 -0500 From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org> Subject: geek alert Why do yeast undergo autolysis? New research (the whole article costs money, but you can read the abstract): http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/4/501 commentary on the article: http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/full/164/4/477 - -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremy at bergsman.org http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:04:29 -0500 From: mjkid at rochester.rr.com Subject: Re: Bottling from kegs On 17 Feb 2004 at 0:25, "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com>: > I have brewed several beers lately and kegged all of them. In preparing for > the upcoming Gulf Coast competition season, I tried to rack beer from my keg > directly to bottles. I don't have a counter-pressure filler, and I have heard > of brewers simply attaching their spring loaded bottle filler to the picnic > tap and dispensing from the keg into the bottles. I find myself in the same position, and a friend told me about this method of bottling from kegs that works quite well. I think it was from one of the brewing mags, but I don't recall which one. Anyway, sanitize some bottles. Fill said bottles with sanitary water (boiled and cooled, or filtered with a sanitary filter). Cap the bottles, and refigerate for several hours or overnight. You will need a length of tubing that fits your dispenser, and reaches the bottom of the bottles. Uncap and empty the bottles. You want them cold and wet, to reduce foaming. Back the serving pressure down to 4-5 lbs (the beer should barely come out). If you pull the hose up while you fill, you can get the bottle pretty much full. I've entered beers filled this way in a couple of competitions, with good results. You need to make sure your serving lines and taps are clean. I sanitize a serving line with a cobra tap and use that for the transfer. I had thought about buying a CPBF, but this works well enough for me that I don't see the benefit in spending the money. Mie Kidulich Rochester, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:31:48 -1000 From: "Michael Noah" <Michael.Noah at noaa.gov> Subject: Cooling Coils & Pressure Calculations I am the Beermeister for a "Drinking club with a running problem," better known as the Hash House Harriers here in Honolulu. We have a pretty simple beer dispensing system that I have been trying to optimize. I want to calculate the pressure that I should set my regulator to in order to get the beer out of the keg but to not over-carbonate the product before we've had a chance to enjoy the last drop. We use a jockey box system with two 120-foot coils to dispense one keg each of a creme ale and a steamship lager. Standard fair, I believe, as I have seen this system offered for sale on a number of websites. My question is this - when calculating the resistance of the system using Kegman's formula (kegman.net/balance.html), I calculate that the standard 120-foot cooling coils offered for sale introduce 60 psi of resistance. That's 100' of 3/8" O.D. Stainless Beverage Tubing providing 100 x 0.2 lbs/ft, or 20 psi of resistance, and 20' of 1/4"O.D. Stainless Beverage Tubing providing 20 x 2.0 lbs/ft, or 40 psi of resistance. That would seem to indicate that I have to pressurize my kegs with 60 psi just to overcome that resistance. Just to complete the picture, we also have 5 feet of 3/8" tubing for the beer lines, adding another 0.5 psi, and the 1 foot we have between the top of the keg and the faucet adds another 0.5 psi. Am I overlooking something here?? That's a lot of CO2 to overcome what looks to be a standard design for a cooling coil. Mahalo!! Michael Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:42:54 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: Re:Counterflow chiller Tim asked: >So anyhew, now that I'm pondering a counterflow chiller, > a few questions come to mind. > Any opinions on: > a) minimum diameter for the inner tube > b) minimum diameter for the outer tube > I'm thinking 1/4'' inner 3/8" outer or 3/8" inner > 1/2" outer. I haven't looked into fittings/adapters > etc and that may be a factor as well. > Oh yeah, one other question: Is natural gas pipe > suitable for brewing? Tim, the absolute minimum wort (inner) tube size is 3/8" OD. If you went with 1/4" it would take foreever to chill 5 gallons. Given that, the minimum outer tube size you owuld want to use is 5/8" OD, and 3/4" would be better. As to the last question, what are you asking? Suitable to run wort through? If that's the question, the answer is certainly not. The only pipe materials suitable for wort transfer are stainless steel, copper, and brass (and machined brass fittings should be "pickled" to remove surface lead). Kent Fletcher Brweing in So Cal Return to table of contents
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