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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Garden Hoses ("Terry A Harrison & Elizabeth Brown")
  CO2 graphs and it's interpretation ("Fredrik")
  Potassium Metabisulphate ("Rich Beecher")
  Garden Hose in Brewing (King Queen)
  Re:max safe ambient temp for full CO2 tank (Mike S)
  re: Seattle brewpubs ("May, Jeff")
  max safe ambient temp for full CO2 tank ("Michael Maag")
  Re: static fizz (Jeff Renner)
  RE: static fizz ("Brian Lundeen")
  The Quest for the Mash-Out Chalice ("Steve Fletty")
  Clinitest ("William Frazier")
  Re: max safe ambient temp for ful CO2 tank (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: Seattle Brewpubs (Demonick)
  Copper in Fermenters (Eric Schoville)
  Light and Dark Munich Malts (Leo Vitt)
  Re: Seattle Brewpubs (beerbuddy)


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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:19:19 -0800
From: "Terry A Harrison & Elizabeth Brown" <tahmeb at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Garden Hoses

Hello,

I used to work in the RV industry and it was very standard to use a "garden"
hose for fresh water supply in RV's. The hoses used were generally white and
some had a blue stripe. A trailer supply place like Camping World has these.
The key is the wording potable water hose.

Terry



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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:26:40 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: CO2 graphs and it's interpretation

I agree that eventually it is essential to improve the accuracy of the flow
meter used. I think Ken's flowmeter is really intersting and I am glad that
he shared his data! As I understand this is his first real run with it.

In general I am mostly concerned with repeatability. An repeatable error is
not a major problem as it can be calibrated away by software, while random
errors are fatal. A non-linear calibration isn't a big problem as long as
you are using a computer (and can model the error). As some may remember I
posted on here about a bubble logger I made some time ago. It's a flow meter
as well, but it works by counting bubbles. Obviously there are lots of
issued involved, pressure of bubbles, bubble volume variation etc. But I've
ran this for some batches now and even as is, it's very useful. Even if
you'd get an error in the volume you still see the rough fermentation
profile, which in itself is useful. To actually understand every peak and
jerk is complex, and without some theoretical model I think it wouldn't make
much sense even if you have the best flow meter around. With the bubble
logger the flow is very noise on small time scale, as the mean time between
bubbles is fairly random, but if you look at the time averages it looks very
good.

My approach is that I find my bubble logger good enough for now(though it
may eventually need to be replaced, but I haven't put alot of energy into
that part yet), enough to predict FG within some point anyway, and I'm
working on a computer simulation of the CO2 graph and fermentation and I
hope to have a alpha version coming this year. Until that is done, I doubt
it would make much sense to have a better flow meter. So I think any
flowmeter that's in the ballpark, with a reproducable error is great, and
much better than nothing.

If this turns out good I think the CO2 graphs is much more than just
predicting FG. OG and FG are just two datapoints. If you can get the entire
process mapped out, it's much more interesting to me, even if you would end
up with a slight error in the FG.

I've already done simple basic simulations of saturation lags etc, but the
real hard part that I'm struggling with is how to model yeast dynamic
response to ambient conditions. Some things are still bothering me, and as I
lack proper knowledge I have to make things up mathematically in order to
get the simulation model complete and then go back and revise it later.

(http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/simple.jpg)
In this pic the phase shift between CO2 productio and CO2 leaving fermentor
is shown. I'd better point out that this is a very simple simulation and not
near the final simulation, so I don't get nuked with corrections :) It
totally ignores that fact that the yeast go dormant  at  EOF. It basically
ignores everything, is just models the depletion of sugar and CO2
progressing throutgh the liquied in the simplest possible way. It does have
a simple transition function from lag. Also the "sugar" is only the
fermentable part. The unfermentable parts doesn't need modelling this this
simple case.

 /Fredrik


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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:13:58 -0500
From: "Rich Beecher" <rbeecher at hotmail.com>
Subject: Potassium Metabisulphate

24 February

Greetings All,

    After many years, I am returning to homebrewing. I'll be starting out 
with extract/steeping, and will be doing a partial boil. I hope to move up 
to mashing next year.
    My question is: is it possible to use potassium metabisulphate to 
pretreat the water that is not involved in the boil? I have read that wine 
must may be treated with it the day before to kill off most of the nasties; 
most of the sulphates evaporate, & the yeast is happy when added to the must 
the next day. Is the same thing possible with wort (the hops/steeped runoff 
will be boiled, along with the extract).
    Thank you all much.

Best Regards,
Rich Beecher
Chattanooga, TN



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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:15:02 +0000
From: King Queen <kq at kingqueen.org.uk>
Subject: Garden Hose in Brewing

Calvin Perilloux wrote:

> So I was thinking of this posting regarding "plasticisers"
> and adding some info to that, whereas I
> believe Tim was talking 
> about another posting using garden hose as the outer shell
> of a counter flow wort chiller.  I think both Tim and I agree
> that wort-contact applications are bad, and waste-water-contact
> applications are fine.  No misinformation there, just some
> clarification.

This misunderstanding was down to me I'm 
afraid - I misunderstood David Houseman's 
post (which was about a counterflow chiller, 
no hose > wort contact) and so my post about 
plasticisers was a bit of a non-sequiteur I'm afraid.

Anyway, it generated some interesting debate!



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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:25:35 -0500
From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S)
Subject: Re:max safe ambient temp for full CO2 tank


>I would like to put my CO2 tank outside of my refrigerator. However, 
>where I
>live, average daily high temps are 100+ for 2.5 to 3 months. What is 
>the
>safest ambient temperature that I can keep my full CO2 tank at without
>worry. Also, what is the highest ambient temperature for a high 
>pressure
>hose leading from the tank to the regulator?

This page: http://www.privatedata.com/doomlabs/science/CO2_Science.html
contains a useful chart for CO2 cylinders. CO2 cylinders are typically
rated at a working pressure of 1800 psig. "100% fill" is filled to 
design
capacity, not filled to the brim.

 From the chart, a 100% full CO2 cylinder is within it's working rating 
at
all temperatures below 110F. A 90% full would be good to about 120, and 
an
80% fill to about 130F (extrapolating.)

That's to stay inside the rated "working pressure." Test pressure on 
CO2
cylinders is 3000 psig, and they usually have a burst disc rated around 

2500 psig.

Basically, unless it's overfilled, you should have no problems. Burst 
discs
can, however, fail at less than their design rating from metal fatigue
after some period of use, so you may want to occasionally have a new 
one
put in.

Mike




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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:25:25 -0500
From: "May, Jeff" <Jeff.May at uscellular.com>
Subject: re: Seattle brewpubs

I lived there a few years ago, but my favorites would be Pike
Brewery downtown, and McMenamins (there are a couple around
town).  Pike is more of a brewery that celebrates it's own
creations and McMenamins is more of an Irish drinking house
with a LARGE selection.  Red Hook has a public house at their
brewery in Woodinville.  I also would have to mention Hale's
as they sponsored our brew club.  

Jeff (Mayzer) May 	
Mayzerbrau Nano Brew Wilmington, NC
jeff.may at uscellular.com

"The mind cannot fully comprehend the mind."



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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:50:23 -0500
From: "Michael Maag" <MichaelMaag at doli.state.va.us>
Subject: max safe ambient temp for full CO2 tank

>Andy in Las Vegas
> What is the safest ambient temperature that I can keep my full CO2
tank at >without worry. Also, what is the highest ambient temperature
for a high >pressure hose leading from the tank to the regulator? Any
help would be >appreciated.

The Compressed Gas Association recommendations regarding outdoor
storage include guarding against rust damage of the cylinder bottoms,
and shading the cylinders from direct sunlight.  CO2 cylinders are
protected from explosion with a frangible disk which will break at high
pressure (much lower pressure than would explode the cylinder), and vent
all the CO2.  If the cylinder is in an area with at least some
ventilation and not in direct sunlight, it should be fine.  The actual
safe temp limit would be lower if the cylinder were overfilled, but that
is taken into consideration regarding the need for shade.  In other
words, it SHOULD be ok.
The hose would be fine at "ambient" temps also.  Just keep it away from
flames and hot surfaces.

Hope this helps,
Mike Maag, in the Shenandoah Valley


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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:17:34 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: static fizz

JonO <burnunit at waste.org> writes from Minneapolis, MN that his Dunkel is

>basically fermented out and ready to bottle.
>EXCEPT, it's still active.  It's a little fizzy, with some fizz in the
>graduated cylinder and the airlock shows positive pressure from within,
>and it bubbles if I jostle it (like when I went to take a reading).

The finished beer is supersaturated with CO2 and the CO2 is slowly 
coming out of solution, especially when you bump it.  The colder the 
beer is, the more CO2 can hold.

>since it hasn't budged at all from that 1.013 gravity, I feel it's
>done.  I just don't want to overprime it.  Do I wait til it's flat and
>then go?  Or do I use less than my usual amount of priming sugar?  Or
>do I use a normal amount but keep it cold for a while?

You didn't tell us the starting gravity, but 1.013 seems like a good 
terminal gravity for anything above 1.050 or so.  You need to take 
into account the amount of CO2 in solution when you prime.  This is 
temperature dependent, of course.

John Palmer has a handy nomograph for this on p. 133 of his book _How 
to Brew_.  It's in the online book at 
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-4.html, or you could buy 
the hard copy.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:48:15 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: static fizz

> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:31:36 -0600
> From: Burn Unit <burnunit at waste.org>
> Subject: static fizz
> 

> since it hasn't budged at all from that 1.013 gravity, I feel it's 
> done.  I just don't want to overprime it.  Do I wait til it's 
> flat and 
> then go?  Or do I use less than my usual amount of priming sugar?  Or 
> do I use a normal amount but keep it cold for a while?
> 

The colder your fermentation, the more residual CO2 will remain, and
this is what's causing the static fizz in your lager. If you wait for it
to go flat, you will never drink that beer. ;-) 

A good priming calculator will account for the fermentation temperature
to provide a reasonable estimate of how much CO2 you already have and
how much priming sugar you will therefore need to reach your desired
level. There is a decent one at the Beer Recipator
http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html It also
provides recommended carbonation levels for a variety of styles.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg


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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:58:00 -0600
From: "Steve Fletty" <fletty at umn.edu>
Subject: The Quest for the Mash-Out Chalice

Good Sir Brewer, are you equal to the challenge? Are you willing to test
your Brewing Mettle against the Most Mighty Zymurgical Alchemists in All the
Land?

If you have the Fortitude of  Heart and haven't already Soiled Your Armor
and deleted this email in Sheer Cowardice, then press on Brave Brewer, for
by doing so you may win one of the Best of Show prizes, hand carved by a
Skilled Craftsman from Rare Exotic African Black Limba Wood, which will be
awarded at the third annual Upper Mississippi Mash-Out in May.

Only one Brave Brewer and one Mighty Meadmaker each will receive one of
these Coveted and Unique Chalices. Will it be you, or will you cower like a
Mangy Dog which wets itself in Abject Fear and crawls beneath a Dung Cart?

Please go to http://mnbrewers.com/mashout where you may view the Most
Coveted Vessels and acquire more Knowledge and Learning about the Upper
Mississippi Mash-Out. If you don't, then we will Break Wind in your general
direction and Snicker Most Mischievously about your Common and Paltry
Brewing Prowess.

Huzzah!.



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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:50:36 -0600
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Clinitest

Dave Burley wrote "Andy in Hillsborough decries starting a new Clinitest row
but asks about
getting Clinitest.  You can buy the tablets from your pharmacy ( maybe 100
in a box) and if you
don't have the kit, just get an eyedropper from the pharmacy and use a
testube.  The color test comparisons and instructions are in the box of
tablets."

Winemakers use Clinitest to test residule sugar.  It's a bad thing to have a
bottle fermentation.  If you want a kit go to www.piwine.com.  I don't see
Clinitest in their on-line catalog but they show it in their printed
version.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas







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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:01:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: max safe ambient temp for ful CO2 tank

Andy in (soon-to-be-sweltering) Las Vegas asks:

> What is the safest ambient temperature that I can keep
> my full CO2 tank at without worry. 

A copy of an excellent pressure/phase state chart for CO2 is here:
http://www.privatedata.com/doomlabs/science/CO2_Science.html

CO2 has a critical temperature of about 88 F.  That's the 
temperature where it becomes a gas+fluid state, and the 
"easy" equations we learned in Physics 101 don't work, 
hence the chart.

I've seen from suppliers that a "service pressure" of up 
to 1800 psi applies to aluminum tanks.  Dunno about steel,
but likely similar.  Max test pressure is 3000 psi --  but 
let's not even consider that.

With a full fill, you're getting close to the max service 
pressure on the tank at 110 F, manageable but not recommended
because any further increase in temperature causes a rapid 
rise in pressure - see the chart.  (Make damned sure you don't 
have that tank in the sun at these temps.  Make damned sure 
you don't get an overfill on a new tank at these temps.) 

However, keep in mind that the maximum daytime temperature
where you are is >100 F.  That means that at night, you're 
somewhat cooler.  With thermal inertia, that tank might
well be in the tolerable zone of 90's F.

As for the high-pressure hose, you'll be looking at the
same pressure as in the tank if the hose is before the
regulator.  I'd probably want to keep the regulator on
the tank, myself, but could be persuaded otherwise if
anyone has good info on that.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA



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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:05:36 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Seattle Brewpubs

Peter, email me and perhaps we can hook up somewhere. 

Big Time Brewery & Alehouse
   Absolutely worth a visit.  Bhagwan's Best, the Oatmeal Stout, and
whatever is on the engine. 

Elysian Brewing Company
   Yes.  Nice Pilsner.

Gordon Biersch Brewing Company
   A chain - forget it. 

Hale's Ales Brewery & Pub
Maritime Pacific Brewing
Redhook Trolleyman
   All three a are big YES!!  They are on the same street within a mile of
each other.  You may or may not be interested in trying Redhook's offerings
at the source, but at least drive by the original brick brewery.

   At Hale's one must try the Special Bitter, and the IPA, and whatever is
on the engine.

   At Maritime one must try Islander Pale, and the Jolly Roger.  

Pyramid Alehouse, Brewery & Restaurant
Hart Brewery & Pub / Pyramid Ales
   Same place.  Right across the street from the best ballpark in America,
SafeCo Field - the Safe.  Big place, still make pretty good beers.  If time
is limited skip it.

McMenamins Queen Anne Hill
McMenamins/Six Arms Pub
   Chains.  Beer is insipid. 

Pike Brewery & Pub
   Most folks like their beer, I find it uninteresting. 

Ram Restaurants / Big Horn Breweries
Rock Bottom Brewery
   Both chains - forget. 

Manny's, small local in Georgetown - I don't know if they have a tasting
room.  




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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:22:54 -0600
From: Eric Schoville <eric at schoville.com>
Subject: Copper in Fermenters

Is there a problem with copper in fermenters?  I would like to but a SS 
valve in my fermenter, but all of the extra parts I have are out of 
copper.  If not copper, what about PVC?  Does PVC tolerate acid 
environments like wort?

Thanks

Eric Schoville
http://www.schoville.com/brewery.php


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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:53:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Light and Dark Munich Malts



Robert Sandefer asked about Light and Dark Munich Malts.

"PS: Anyone who has used Munich malt (there are a lot of you I'm sure) 
can contribute to this discussion.
What style did you use light Munich malt in? And dark?"

I have only used light Munich malt.  I probably will use dark in the
future.

I have used light in these styles:
Altbier
Munich Dunkel
Bock/Dopplebock
DunkelWeizen
Weizenbock
Belgian Dubbel
Rauchbier
Maibock

Two - three years ago I experimented with 100% light munich in a
dunkel.
It was too light in color and was not that rich tasting.  Others I made
before that with base malt of light munich, some caramunich and
melanoidin malts fit the style better.

There is a dark malt flavor without having the roasted malt flavor

Altbier was a mix of light munich and pilsner malt.  Altbier is not
nearly as dark as dunkel.  Light munich is dark enough.

Bock and doppelbock had cara-munich, cara-vienna and melanoidian malt
added as well.

Maibock was half light munich half pilsner.

Weizen bock and dunkel weizen had dark wheat, light munich and
caramunich.

Dubbel - I forget the ratio. 





=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:53:06 +0000
From: beerbuddy at comcast.net
Subject: Re: Seattle Brewpubs

Although I moved to Santa Fe, NM a couple months ago, I still 
consider the Seattle area home. 

Your list of pubs is pretty good. You don't say where in the City your 
conference is, the breweries you list are all around town. Pike's is my 
favorite, and it is right down near the public market. It is walking 
distance from many conference facilities. They usually have 7 or 8
of their own, and several guest taps. Pyramid has some pretty good stuff.
Their Alehouse is across from Safeco Field. You can get a wider 
variety than their commonly available Pale Ale. Rock Bottom is in a
mall in downtown, but I've found them to be inconsistent. (with the
exception of their service, which is always poor.) 

My favorite is not on your list. It is about 15 miles east of the 
City. If you are out and about, check out Issaquah Brewery, across
from the library near old-town Issaquah.  (south on exit 18 of I90
east). Their food isn't great, but they are associated with Rogue 
Brewery. They typically have a variety of 12 or so taps from Rogue 
as well as one of their own. 

Hope this helps!
Timothy
BeerBuddy
snowed-in in Santa Fe, NM (formerly North Bend, WA)


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