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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Happy Hour in Seattle ("Mike Sharp")
  Brewing Movies/Pictures (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Bunratty Mead ("Brian Dougan")
  safety of coolers as mashtuns (Aaron Martin Linder)
  Re: Potassium Metabisulfite (Robert Sandefer)
  OT: Harvesting of addresses (Patrick-Gabriel Clarke)
  Building a bottling station ("Rob Dewhirst")
  metabite in brewing ("A. J. deLange")
  Re: Copper in Fermenters (Jeff Renner)
  golden gate cask bungs (RiedelD)
  useful if true (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Gas Measurement ("Martin Brungard")


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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:04:55 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Happy Hour in Seattle

Demonick suggests a happy hour:

> Peter, email me and perhaps we can hook up somewhere.

Heck, email me too; I'd love an excuse to quaff a brew at any of the places
(except the chains) on Demonick's list.  The Elysian is nice, and I've been
wanting to visit Big Time Brewery--I've heard great things about their head
brewer.

I was just in Tacoma last week--our brew club met at the Harmon Brewery, and
we met their brewer, Michael Davis.  Great fellow, great brew--he's got
quite a number of GABF medals.  But Tacoma's a bit of a drive.  But Hales,
Maritime Pacific and the old Redhook are all great places too.  Damn, it's
great to live near Seattle!  So many brewpubs, so little time.

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:59:23 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Brewing Movies/Pictures

Was looking for pictures of lager fermentation and couldn't find any 
through obvious searches. As a lot of people now have digital camera 
and even digital camcorder, there must be a lot of brewing-related 
pictures and movie files out there...
Of course, brewclubs have galleries but these usually contain pictures 
of group events such as Big Brews and visits, not much on 
fermentation...
I know of at least one (local) site which has fermentation pix, but 
nothing specifically on lager:
http://www.bodensatz.com/gallery/

It'd be nice to see, say, movies of a carboy and airlock at different 
stages of fermentation...

Anyone got a good repository for general brewing pictures and movie 
files?

Thanks in advance!

Ale-X in Moncton, New Brunswick (Canada)



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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:33:55 +0000
From: "Brian Dougan" <dougan_b at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bunratty Mead

While travelling around Ireland last spring I happened upon "Bunratty Mead" 
produced at the Bunratty Winery, Bunratty, Co. Clare.  Has anyone else 
sipped this mead and have opinions on it?  I was hoping perhaps someone 
would be able to help me figure out a recipe that would be close to it.  
Having yet to make a mead, I thought this would be a good one to try and get 
close to having enjoyed it.  Thanks in advance.

 -Brian



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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:02:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Aaron Martin Linder <lindera at umich.edu>
Subject: safety of coolers as mashtuns

Hi,

I have searched the HBD archives for good information for as long as I
could stand it using my 56K dial-up and finally decided to post my first
message since I couldn't find any good information(on plastic mashtuns
that is!)  Sorry if I missed it somehow.

I have been curious about the safety of using coolers as mashtuns for
awhile now.  I currently use a 5 gal. Rubbermaid and a 10 gal. Igloo (one
use).  I decided to cast aside any hints of fear I had or regrets I might
have had for using the coolers without thinking about it more by calling
Rubbermaid to settle the issue.  I'm not particularly convinced by
anecdotal evidence such as, "Well, I've been doing it for years and you
don't see anything wrong with me, do you?"  Well, no I guess I don't see
anything wrong with you.  So it's not an acute, fatal exposure, that's
mildly reassuring.  I assure you, I'm not dead yet either.

I called Rubbermaid three times and listened to three people tell me a
variation of the following dialogue:

Me:  Is it ok to use coolers for hot liquids, like for making beer.

Them:  No, it's never been tested for hot liquids.  Only use cold liquids.

Me:  So it might be unsafe to use them, like they might leach out toxic
metals or organics?

Them:  No, I'm not saying that, just that they haven't been tested.

After calling them, I of course felt two things.  One, they're just a
corporation trying to cover their ass, as usual. I understand. It's
probably made of food grade HDPE (Rubbermaid at least) and is probably
safe to use.  Besides, Rubbermaid is probably mostly scared the cooler
will become brittle and crack or something, not that the homebrewing world
is slowly raising the levels of lead or cadmium or whatever else in its
collective body.

Two, I thought, well, maybe it's fundamentally different to have a
slightly acidic solution at 170 degrees or maybe a touch over.  Maybe it
really is a risky business, maybe less so than other things like smoking
or walking out of the house, but maybe still a little risky.(yes, i could
easily have done more damage to myself by going to Frasier's pub last
night, breathing in cigarette fumes for 2 hours, i know.)

So, does anyone have any counter-evidence.  OR, is this issue like so many
others in life, an issue of whether you are willing to take a probably
insignificant risk in exchange for the convenience and monetary-savings
versus going with the perceived safer alternative which will cost you more
money, time and convenience(i.e. stainless steel)  By the way anyone know
how long a pot of mash will hold temperature in your kitchen without
applying heat?

That being said, I also called "ROPAK," a corporation that makes food
grade, white, HDPE buckets.  I use them for sparging, etc.  They said that
their products ARE safe for brewing.  The lady with whom I spoke gave an
example from the fruit-filling industry. She said that the fruit-filling
people, apple filing to be exact, blurp their gooey ware into the plastic
buckets, stamp on the lid and flip them over.  I assume that this is to
sterilize the lid.  The mixture was at 170+ degrees (not sure how high).
This seemed like a good comparison with a mash.  A hot, sweet, probably
mildly acidic mass.  So, the plastic in ROPAK, or other food-grade buckets
must be the same as Rubbermaid, and it's probably safe to use coolers, but
who knows.

Thanks.

Aaron

Sorry if this is an old horse.  I'm an animal lover too.


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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:41:11 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: Potassium Metabisulfite

In an acidic environment, potassium metabisulfite releases SO2, which many 
organisms cannot survive.

However, I believe a pH less than 4 is generally required to have a 
reasonable metabisulfite addition release enough sulfur dioxide to have 
much of an effect on the microorganisms in a must.

To my mind, both wort and plain water (in any area I've lived) are not 
acidic enough for metabisulfite addition to be viable.

I'd just boil the water. If it's for topping up an extract, partial-boil 
batch, you could just use tap water straight from the tap. (It's worked 
for me in the past. I have transfered water from the tap to the fermenter, 
pre-pitching, with a sanitized quart measuring cup. I haven't had an 
(obviously) infected batch yet.)

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA


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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:25:48 -0800
From: Patrick-Gabriel Clarke <hbd.to.theq at xoxy.net>
Subject: OT: Harvesting of addresses

Greetings brewers -

Firstly, hats off to the establishment for being cognizant of and caring 
about email security on the list. Unfortunately, my address has 
apparently been harvested from this list despite their efforts.

This is a tagged address that has been used only three times:
1) to submit a subscription request to HBD - some time ago
2) to confirm said request - also some time ago
3) to make my first post - a week or so ago

That's it - never exposed anywhere else, never used anywhere else, and 
not terribly subject to a dictionary attack. This will be only the 4th 
email sent from this address.

Has anyone else had similar experiences? This particular spew originates 
from 217.10.166.50 on Engineering-Internetworks (kcom.com?) which has a 
New Guineau address, but whose contacts appear to be from Gerrards 
Cross, UK. Does this ring any bells for anyone?

The spam itself involves a "weblotto" scam, from a "Dr Enrique 
Westerhoff" and appears to be laughable phishing attempt. Appropriate 
entities have already been larted. Has anyone else received this?

Thanks and sorry for the bad news!
 - Patrick-Gabriel

PS - FWIW, I agree with Demonick's estimation of the numerous Seattle 
brewpubs, and would add that the Muffaletta sandwich at Big Time is 
worth the visit even if they didn't have great beer!

Also, Fiddler's Inn and the Wedgwood Ale House (both on 35th NE in 
Wedgwood), while not brewpubs are pleasant places to explore many local 
brews. The former is non-smoking & has good food (try the Harvest 
sandwich), sports a nice wood theme in it's "new" incarnation (it used 
to be a tiny green cabin dive serving Bud & Rainier) but gets noisy on 
weekend nights and on open mike nights - and has a small outdoor patio 
that's nice. The latter is a basic neighborhood pub also with a great 
beer menu, and similarly good food - also has a "back room" all-ages 
restaurant for when you want to bring the kids. (Youngest Daughter 
recommends the cheesy noodles)
;-)




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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:01:30 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Building a bottling station

I am looking for ideas for building a bottling station (a bench-capping
station).  If you have pictures or ideas for what you have done in your
brewery, I would appreciate ideas I can rip off, er, I mean, use as a
basis for my homage to your ingenuity.

My vague idea of features would be:

Based on a small desk-size table, about the size of a large card table.
Draining rack that holds bottles upside down.
Platform for carboy/container of liquid to be bottled.
Removable mount for bench capper (already have an idea there from Norm
Abram).
Would accomodate both beer capping and wine corking (with floor corker
beside station).



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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:48:18 +0100
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajd at zai.com>
Subject: metabite in brewing

Metabite is used in brewing but the usual application is the 
elimination of chloramine rather than trying to establish an advantage 
for the desired strain of yeast as is done in wine making. One campden 
tablet should convert the cloramine in 40 gallons of water at a 
chloramine level of 3 mg/L/. See 
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4216.html#4216-18 for more details.

A.J.


A.J. deLange
ERS Project Manager
Zeta Associates Inc
703 359 8696
855-6005



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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:10:49 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Copper in Fermenters

[This hasn't shown up in the queue, so Ill send it again.  Hope it 
doesn't appear twice. -J]

Eric Schoville <eric at schoville.com> writes (from Texas?  Seems to 
me you were going to live in Europe for a while)

>Is there a problem with copper in fermenters?  I would like to but a SS
>valve in my fermenter, but all of the extra parts I have are out of
>copper.

I think the US government is trying to get copper out of contact with 
all kinds of foodstuffs, but copper has been used for brewing for 
centuries, including for fermenters.  Ridley's Brewery in Essex, UK, 
which I visited a few years ago, has copper lined square oak 
fermenters dating from 1842.  You can see them at 
http://www.ridleys.co.uk/pages/tour.asp?ftime=1& (scroll across to 
the fermenter).

After the fermenter is emptied, a worker puts on wellies and climbs 
in and scrubs the lining with a green pad, or so I was told.  You'd 
think that many years of that would wear out the copper.  It must 
have been thick to have lasted this long.

Ridley's beer can be problematic, but I don't think it's from the 
copper.  And their yeast, sold as WhiteLabs WLP023 Essex Ale Yeast, 
is one of my favorites.

I have copper parts in the valve on my aluminum kettle that I use as 
a fermenter, and I don't think it has anything to do with the way I 
am.  We have to look elsewhere for the blame.

>If not copper, what about PVC?  Does PVC tolerate acid
>environments like wort?

Can't help on that.

Jeff
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:38:49 -0800
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: golden gate cask bungs

Hi all,

I have a grave situation:  1 golden gate cask, 0 wooden bungs.
Problem is, these are difficult items to find.  Many suppliers don't even
know what kind of keg I'm talking about.  The bung appears to be about 2" in
diameter at the top, tapering down very slightly to just less than that.  I
have a rubber stopper that is the right size - it is a 10 1/2.

Does anyone have any of these solid wooden bungs for sale?  Or,
does anyone know who sells them?  I'd buy probably at least 10.

Note:  the firkins sold for cask ale by UK Brewing Supplies have a
2" wooden shive - but I *think* they have a hole in them (for the soft
spile, followed by the hard spile).  If these are actually solid *until* the
center is knocked out, would they work for the golden gate?

Anyway, I really hope someone can help.  The 30L golden gate is
a great size for cask ale (not too big), I want to be able to use it.

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Can.


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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:58:40 -0500
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: useful if true

I keep my beer in a fridge in unconditioned space.  During the winter it is
quite cold out there and I use my temperature controller to heat it to the
upper 30's to avoid freezing my beer, but to save money and wear and tear on
the heating pad I am currently using I don't keep it as warm as I like my
beer, especially styles like IPA.

To deal with this I have taken to microwaving my beer for 9 s just after
pouring.  (I have a powerful microwave--this is probably like 12-15 s in
most I have used.  It also has a turntable FWIW.)  I believe that I get an
amazing hop aroma from the hoppy beers I do this to.  It seems much stronger
than comparing to a beer which has been stored at a warmer temperature, but
it is hard to do this precisely, and I haven't.  

Anyway, it's a good trick if your beer is too cold, and I would be
interested in feedback if anyone tries it and thinks the hop (or perhaps
other?) aroma is increased.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy


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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:00:20 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Gas Measurement

It seems that gas flow measurement during fermentation could be a beneficial 
tool for brewers.  There have been some pretty high-tech gas measurement 
schemes discussed recently.  Most notable is the mass flowmeter.  From what 
I can tell, a mass flowmeter is a fairly high dollar unit.  I'm not sure 
that its the way to go though.  There is some question about accuracy at low 
flow rates.

I've done a little investigating and have come to the conclusion that an 
Event Logger or State Logger attached to some sort of gas volume tripping 
device would provide a less expensive and higher accuracy device at low gas 
flow rates.  These loggers record the time of every event that is signaled 
to it.  You would download the data from the logger into a computer for 
conversion into an actual flowrate.

There has been a mention of using bubble counting to measure gas production. 
  Its probably effective, but I'm not sure that the minimal volume of a 
bubble and the shear number of bubbles could be counted by most of the 
inexpensive event or state loggers.  From what I can tell, the sub-$100 
loggers can only handle 6000 to 8000 events.  Hobo and Nomad are two loggers 
that I've found so far.  So for these loggers to be used, the tripping 
device needs to cycle with a larger gas volume.

Rain gauges use a techique refered to as a "tipping bucket" to measure 
discrete volumes of rainfall.  I'm envisioning some sort of similar tipping 
bucket approach, excepting that it will be submerged in a water bath.  Think 
of one of those ornamental aquarium things driven by the air bubbler that 
tip up and release a big gush of air occasionally.

I assume the tipping apparatus would need to contact some sort of switch to 
signal the event to the logger.

What I'm hoping to cultivate with this message are some ideas about how a 
tipping device might be fashioned or if there are other approaches to flow 
measurement that aren't going to cost an arm and a leg.


Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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