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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Copper cleaning (Fred Johnson)
  Re: Freezer conversion. ("Darth Marley") (Todd Goodman)
  Re: acetone in weizen ("Zemo")
  Revival of hop growing in NY (wurly153)
  RE: CO2 Measure - bubbler - audio counter - dark ages ("Ronald La Borde")
  RE: Copper Oxidation ("Adam M. Bumpus")
  freezer conversion ("Jay Spies")
  WLP 380 ("Jeff & Ellen")
  Re: acetone in weizen (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fernando_Gon=E7alves?=)
  Clinitest tabs (Bill Tobler)
  Sanitize Yeast Nutrient Before Adding? ("Dave and Joan King")
  Make it more Bitter? ("Dave and Joan King")
  Which yeast? (Dean)
  oxygen/champagne yeast secondary/"McDonald's effect" (Aaron Martin Linder)
  Combining yeasts ("Pat and Debbie")
  Re: WLP 380 (Marc Sedam)


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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:14:28 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Copper cleaning

Ben says the inner copper tubing in his new counter flow chiller is 
black and asks for help cleaning it. I've been playing around with 
cleaning copper myself and have tested some different solutions on 
scrap copper pipe used in plumbing. I hasten to say that I'm not sure 
that the following applies to all types of copper and suspect there are 
various allows out there that may behave differently than my tests. For 
example, I know that some copper tubing is softer than others, which 
can only be evidence of a different composition, and I suspect that the 
copper tubing used in counter flow chillers, which likely came coiled 
up, may be very different than the straight copper tubing I've been 
playing with and used for general plumbing purposese.

Anyway, with all that said, I was able to produce a black deposit on 
copper with a prolonged exposure to fairly strong caustic (sodium 
hydroxide). This could be removed with brief exposure to dilute 
muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid). I haven't tested other acids (such 
as vinegar). After muriatic acid treatment, the copper becomes pinkish 
and shiny. With time (exposure to air), the copper will slowly dull and 
can again be restored with brief exposure to muriatic acid.  I know 
copper should not be exposed to strong acid for any prolonged time, so 
the acid treatment needs to be dilute and brief if you intend to use it 
to clean the chiller.

I would love to hear from the metallurgists out there on this. I'm not 
at all sure whether I'm observing changes to the copper itself or to 
something else mixed in with the copper or machined onto the surface of 
the copper (lead?).

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:12:03 -0500
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Freezer conversion. ("Darth Marley")

* From HBD #4491:
> Darth Marley's brewing buddy has purchased a chest freezer.
> 
> All brewing takes place at his apartment. And he has upgraded all my old
> I encountered the designs for a wooden collar on the net. I like the idea,
> but am having difficulty persuading him about the plan.

I just recently purchased a chest freezer and built a collar on it and
highly recommend it!

I have four taps through the collar and it raised the lid enough so that
my corny kegs can stand up on the raised motor housing.

It's less modification to the freezer than drilling holes.  I did have
to disconnect a defrost switch and light that went to my lid (the wiring
was too short after raising it on the collar.)  I was going to reconnect
both, but decided not to bother.

My collar is held on by screwing short lengths of 1x4 to the collar
which extend down over the side of the chest freezer.  There are a
couple on each side which keeps the collar from moving in any direction.
The lid is screwed into the collar and closes nicely.

And if I was ever crazy enough to want to use it as a freezer again, I
can just lift off the collar, reconnect the lid wire and screw the lid
back on and it will be just like it was before I added the collar!

Highly recommended...

Todd Goodman
Brewing in Westford, MA
[Sorry, lost my Rennerian coordinates when work moved...]


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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:19:39 -0600
From: "Zemo" <zemo at buyvictory.com>
Subject: Re: acetone in weizen

In 2002, I brewed an Orval clone and spiked it with Brett. Brux.
using a starter from a Wyeast tube. I made the starter in a 500ml
Erlenmeyer flask covered with foil. I don't recall what I used in
the starter, there could have been some wheat in it. It got pushed 
to the back of the counter and forgotten. I smelled it awhile back
expecting horse blanket (know what I mean?) and got nail polish
remover. I spend alot of time around solvents so I know acetone.
I couldn't believe a living organism could create such a strong
solvent smell! I had the beer in the Mobile Hazing Unit at the
NHC-Chicago. It was okay then. Haven't tried the beer lately.
It's in a chest freezer lagering away. I'll have to try it now.

Zemo



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:33:55 EST
From: wurly153 at stny.rr.com
Subject: Revival of hop growing in NY

This URL will take you to an article in the Press and Sun-Bulletin
(Binghamton NY) about a Cornell researcher, a New York State Farmer and
an Ithaca NY Brewery that are working on reviving hop farming in 
New York State.
http://www.pressconnects.com/tuesday/business/stories/bu030204s71947.shtml






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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:14:13 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: CO2 Measure - bubbler - audio counter - dark ages

>From: DSubject: CO2 measureean <dean at deanandadie.net>
>
>How about attaching an empty bag or bladder to your carboy and
measure the
>volume it occupies throughout fermentation.  Just capture all the CO2
that
>comes out of your fermenter.  Think a 45 gallon trash bag will be big
enough?
>You could even build a container for the bag and measuer the height
of the
>column to calculate volume

Dean has a good idea here. I wonder if he could simply weigh the empty
bag and then weigh the bag with CO2. This seems almost too simple to
be true!

I thought about weighing because I have been playing with my gram
scale, and I found that I could easily weigh CO2 in a 2 liter bottle
under pressure. The large bag should contain enough to measure on a
fairlly simple scale (Ohaus).

On another method, I have in my house alarm system a 'glass breakage
detector'. This is a small electronic box with some op amp circuitry
and a capacitor mic. pickup and filtering circuitry.  It's not too
expensive and the design is to not trigger on household ambient noise,
but trigger on glass breakage or any sharp spike of audio. Hmm wonder
if this can be adapted to the bubble counter. The thing runs on 12
VDC. and triggers built in relay and LED, so can easily be interfaced
to the computer. Just a thought thrown out for a bite.

The digest is getting interesting again!  Hooray, the dark ages are
gone.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:02:58 -0600
From: "Adam M. Bumpus" <adam at bump.us>
Subject: RE: Copper Oxidation

>Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:22:48 -0700
>From: "Ben Rodman" <brew-cat at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Copper oxidation
>	Is there anything to do with apparently oxidized copper? Is this
>oxidation, and is it a problem? I hate to just use it as is... I'm pretty
>conscientious with equipment and not being able to see the interior I'd
>like it as good as it can get when it's new, relying on attentive
>maintenance to keep it in good shape.
I've had good luck brightening up my copper immersion chiller with
vinegar. Wiping it down with a paper towel moistened with vinegar seems
to effectively remove the black and green spots. Obviously this isn't going
to work very well for a CFC, but you might be able to flush it out with a
dilute vinegar/water solution.

Adam




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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:29:34 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: freezer conversion

Darth Marley asks about drilling into a freezer wall or through the motor
wall.....

DON'T DO IT ! ! ! !

Freon coils on a chest freezer run spiraling up the chest walls.  It cools
by conduction, not convection as in a fridge.  Do him and you a favor if you
don't want the substantial likelihood of a DOA freezer:  Make a wooden
collar.

I put a collar on my chest freezer.  I used 3 layers of 3/4" x 6" poplar,
glued along the flats and clamped together until they dried.  Then I cut
them and assembled them, using carriage bolts to snug the 4 sides together.
Construction adhesive holds the collar down onto the freezer lip.  Do
yourself a favor and use hardwood (oak, maple, poplar) and not a softwood
like pine.  Hardwood is not only a better insulator but its also much less
porous and likely to mold up - interior condensation is the most unfortunate
side effect of operating a chest freezer above freezing.  The collar will
likely weigh about 50 pounds, and with Liquid Nails adhesive, I have lifted
my freezer off the ground with a friend (when empty) holding only the
collar.

A collar is the best way to go in my book, or you could put a tower through
the lid.

Hope this helps,

Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:46:23 -0500
From: "Jeff & Ellen" <JeffNGladish at ij.net>
Subject: WLP 380

Mark Sedam wrote about Bavarian Wheat, "Fermented with WhiteLabs WLP380
(Hefeweizen IV).  The remaining 5 gallons has taken on a distinctive acetone
odor."

I happen to really like this yeast in my Bavarian Weizens, but a lot of
people have told me that the balance of aromas is too much toward banana.
In two 10-gallon batches, split like Mark does into a keg and a secondary
fermenter, I've never had acetone aroma.  I've always thought that came from
high fermentation temps rather than a spoilage bacteria.

One thing I do not like about the yeast is the flocculation.  My beers stay
in c-kegs at about 38 degrees F for serving and lagering and I've been
disappointed that the wheat beers get crystal clear after a few weeks.  I've
even taken steps before entering competitions to throw in some wheat flour
just to make it look more like a wheat beer, but I've also learned to brew
this beer just before the deadline and send it off fresh.  When the beer is
fresh, it is a wonderful Weizen yeast.

By the way, how did you treat your wooden cask?  I also got one as a gift.

Jeff Gladish, Tampa



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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:00:23 -0800
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fernando_Gon=E7alves?= <fmsg at sapo.pt>
Subject: Re: acetone in weizen

Marc asks about an acetone odor in a weizen beer.
Marc when you say acetone do you mean solvent like odor?
I doubt that any microorganism can produce acetone (I'm not a
microbiologist). Maybe the odor you notice in your beer is etyl acetate that
has a pronounced solvent like smell. This chemical normaly occurs in the
presence of acetic acid that esterifies with ethanol. Of course the acetic
acid may be present due to some infection with aceto bacteria.
Resuming maybe your batch has been infected with some acetic bacteria, by
esterification of acetic acid and ethanol you got ethyl acetate that has a
solvent odor that you identified erroneously as acetone.
As I always say: I might be wrong ...

Fernando



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Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:06:15 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Clinitest tabs

OK, Dave convinced me to give the Clinitest tabs a try.  I called a few drug
stores, and no one carries them.  OK, I look on the net and find lots, but
everyone wants 6-7 dollars shipping.  Rats!!  I went into Randalls today, (A
local grocary store) and asked, and the sweet girl said no, we don't have
them them, but let me look in the book.  She found a box of 36 tabs, and
said she would have them the next day for about 7 dollars. Such a deal!!
I'll be trying them on my Vienna larger next week.

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:38:05 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Sanitize Yeast Nutrient Before Adding?

I've got a sluggish primary of an Imperial Stout, OG = 1.084.  I'm thinking
of adding some yeast nutrient to see if that'll get it moving.  I thought I
oxygenated it well, sprayed into the primary as always, which usually works
well.  I also made about a full quart of starter (twice fed yeast taken from
the last IPA I made).

How should I handle adding yeast nutrient?  Boil in a little water?  Soak in
some vodka?  Just sprinkle it in?  TAT

         Dave King (BIER)  [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:46:38 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Make it more Bitter?

OK, I screwed up.  I added too much 60L Crystal and Special B to what was
supposed to be an ESB.  It's kegged in a Corny keg, and it's probably OK,
but I'd like it a lot more bitter.  How about boiling an ounce of hops in
plain water for a while, and add it to the keg?

I did a Rager calculation, for an ounce of 15% AA Magnum hops, boiled for 18
minutes in SG = 1.000, I should be able to get 20 IBU.  It might even add
significant hop flavor.  Am I dreaming, or do you think this might actually
work?

         Dave King (BIER)  [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:35:19 -0800
From: Dean <dean at deanandadie.net>
Subject: Which yeast?

Hello All,
	I have a brown ale fermenting on two different yeasts right now.  When it's 
done, I want to pour a barley wine on top of one of the yeasts.  Yeast 1 is 
WYeast American Ale/Chico.  Yeast 2 is White Labs Burton Ale.  I am looking 
for a little guidance in regards to choosing the yeast to pitch upon.  I think 
the Burton may be a little more true to the British style barley wine, but the 
Chico attenuates a little more.

What do y'all think?  And give me a critique on the recipe too - I designed it 
myself.  Am I on the right track?  Hop choice is from what I have on-hand.

Gnarly Barley Wine
- ------------------
A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
- ----------------
Batch Size (Gal):         5.00    Wort Size (Gal):    5.00
Total Grain (Lbs):       19.00
Anticipated OG:          1.101    Plato:             24.03
Anticipated SRM:          13.4
Anticipated IBU:          83.2
Brewhouse Efficiency:       73 %
Wort Boil Time:             60    Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
    %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  69.7    13.25 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row)              Great Britain  1.038      3
  11.8     2.25 lbs. Honey Malt                    Canada         1.030     18
   7.9     1.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt                      1.033      2
   7.9     1.50 lbs. Munich Malt                   Australia      1.038      6
   2.6     0.50 lbs. Brown Malt                    Great Britain  1.032     60

Hops
    Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   1.50 oz.    Horizon                           Whole   14.20  75.9  60 min.
   1.00 oz.    Goldings - E.K.                   Plug     7.50   7.3  15 min.
   2.00 oz.    Goldings - E.K.                   Plug     4.75   0.0  Dry Hop

Extras
   Amount      Name                           Type      Time
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
   1.00 tsp    Irish Moss                     Fining    15 Min.(boil)

Yeast
- -----
White Labs WLP023 Burton Ale
or
WYeast 1056 American Ale/Chico

Mash Schedule
- -------------
Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs:   19.00
Water Qts:   19.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    4.75 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 150  Time:  60
Mash-out Rest Temp :           0  Time:   0
Sparge Temp :                170  Time:  10

Total Mash Volume Gal: 6.27 - Dough-In Infusion Only

Thanks!
- --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs
- --

Take your time, take your chances
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It matters not how strait the gate / How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the master of my fate / I am the captain of my soul.    -- Invictus --
                                                         -- William E Henley --



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:28:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Aaron Martin Linder <lindera at umich.edu>
Subject: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary/"McDonald's effect"

Hello all,
I have two primary questions.  One,  I recently made my first barleywine.
It was not only my first barleywine but it was an ALL-grain barleywine.  I
mashed 24 pounds of Briess 2-row and 1 lb. 90L crystal.  I stopped
sparging at 1.050 (temp. corrected) and wound up with 5 gallons at 1.110
after pitching the starter.  The problem was that after 2 weeks I checked
the primary, and the gravity was 1.045!!! I've never had such a poor
result with White Labs Dry English Ale yeast!  So, I kept it in primary
for a week more, and I am planning on making a starter with some "Red
Star Champagne" yeast, dry, to pitch into the secondary.  I already racked
and have a gravity of 1.040 now.  My first question is this:

do the serious brewers amongst you use an oxygen tank and diffusing stone
to get good attenuation or just shake the hell out of the carboy like I do
for a 1.036-1.085 gravity wort ( and get great results).

My second question is this:
Is it wise to pitch the champagne yeast to secondary, AND did my gravity
go down due to the clarification of the beer or the reduction of
sugar-content?  (i.e. does gravity change significatly due to "stuff"
other than sugar settling out of the wort?)

My last question is this:

I've noticed that my barleywine has a very pleasant apricot-like taste.
it is in fact much what i wanted and why i chose Dry English ale yeast as
opposed to something like California ale yeast (WLP001), which is not
as fruity.  In mashing the brew I used a 10 gallon Igloo "McDonald's"
**snicker** cooler that I found on the side of the road.  It had a
distinct smell of "McDonald's, mystery, poor man's Hi-C-like, I'll give it
to the minority kids' sports event ORANGE DRINK" smell in it as I like to
call it.  I cleaned it thoroughly with TSP before use.  I also used it as
a hot liquor tank before use as a mashtun.  Do you suppose my wonderful
apricot taste is due to the residual "McDonald's effect" or due to my
malt + Dry English ale yeast from White labs?

aaron



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:47:36 -0600
From: "Pat and Debbie" <reddydp at charter.net>
Subject: Combining yeasts

I searched old posts, quickly, for anything on this subject and didn't come
up with much.

I've found myself torn between 2 yeasts for a particular batch several times
and often considered what would be the result if I simply mixed the two.
I'd create a mammoth starter of each and then mix just prior to pitching.
What might I take into consideration before doing this?  How similar must
the two yeast's flocculation, attenuation, temperature preference, etc. be?

Thanks.

Pat Reddy
River Bound Brewing
St. Louis, MO
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Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:05:32 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Re: WLP 380

Regarding this yeast fermentation--Certainly didn't have high 
fermentation temps.  Low, if anything.  And I can second your comments 
about flocculation.

As for the cask, it sits unused yet.  I've got three things in store for 
it...a mead, a pinot noir, then an oud bruin.  I was inspired by the 
brief mention in this month's  Zymurgy of a mead stored for three weeks 
in a new oak cask taking on characteristics of bourbon.  NOW you're 
talking!!!  So I figured I'd make up 12 gallons of mead and store it in 
the keg until it gives the flavor I want.  Drain it and immediately fill 
with wine.  Drain that and immediately fill with oud bruin.

Testing out an oud bruin recipe right now.  7lbs light Munich, 1lb pils, 
1lb 60L crystal.  Ferment with Wyeast's Roeselare yeast.

The goal is that once I put some oud bruin in the cask it will remain a 
kind of "solera cask" for that style forever.  I have fantasies of 
blending 5 year old beer with a freshly fermented batch and getting into 
a "Rodenbach" kind of situation.  But the mead and wine should help 
strip some tannins out of the cask first.

Cheers!
marc



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---