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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Copper cleaning ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  Copper Metallurgy (John Palmer)
  Freezer conversion completed. ("Darth Marley")
  Club Project (stjones1)
  Re: Club Project (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Clinitest tabs ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re:Combining yeasts (Denny Conn)
  acetone odor (Marc Sedam)
  Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler ("Dave Thompson")
  RE: freezer conversion (NO Spam)
  Cleaning Copper ("A.J deLange")
  kegs/excess foam ("Steve Arnold")
  Black copper ("Dave Burley")
  re: Combining yeasts ("-S")
  RE.: combing yeasts ("The Mad Brewer")
  Looking for guidance on welding (Scott McAfee)
  Black copper ("Dave Burley")
  11th Annual BUZZ Off Home Brew Competition ("Christopher Clair")
  re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary (part1) ("-S")
  local micros (Ralph Link)
  re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary/"McDonald's effect" (part 2) ("-S")
  kegging (David)
  RE: Make it more bitter ("Kerry Drake")
   ("John Kennedy")
  NHC First Round - CA Region, Judges and Stewards Needed ("Jamil Zainasheff")


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Date: 05 Mar 2004 00:22:55 -0600
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig at cottingham.net>
Subject: Re: Copper cleaning

On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 07:14, Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
wrote in HBD #4492:

> Ben says the inner copper tubing in his new counter flow chiller is 
> black and asks for help cleaning it.

Sounds like cupric oxide -- CuO. According to my old, old copy of the
Merck Index, it's a "black to brownish-black amorphous or crystalline
powder or granules." Unfortunately, I wasn't paying attention when the
original post went flying by.

> For example, I know that some copper tubing is softer than others,
> which can only be evidence of a different composition, and I suspect
> that the copper tubing used in counter flow chillers, which likely
> came coiled up, may be very different than the straight copper tubing
> I've been playing with and used for general plumbing purposese.

Not necessarily. According to
http://www.matweb.com/reference/copper-alloys.asp :

"Many combinations of ductility, impact resistance, hardness,
conductivity, and strength can be obtained by varying the heat treatment
times and temperatures."

> Anyway, with all that said, I was able to produce a black deposit on 
> copper with a prolonged exposure to fairly strong caustic (sodium 
> hydroxide). This could be removed with brief exposure to dilute 
> muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid). I haven't tested other acids (such 
> as vinegar).

>From the Merck Index: "Practically insoluble in water, alcohols; soluble
in dilute acids; slowly soluble in ammonia." In other words, vinegar
should work. :-)

> After muriatic acid treatment, the copper becomes pinkish and shiny.
> With time (exposure to air), the copper will slowly dull and can again
> be restored with brief exposure to muriatic acid.

That's more copper oxidation, only this time it's cuprous oxide -- Cu2O.
"Color may be yellow, red, or brown.... Practically insoluble in water;
soluble in ammonium; in hydrochloric acid.... With dilute sulfuric acid
or dilute nitric acid."

> I would love to hear from the metallurgists out there on this. I'm not
> at all sure whether I'm observing changes to the copper itself or to 
> something else mixed in with the copper or machined onto the surface
> of the copper (lead?).

I'm not a metallurgist -- I don't even play one on TV -- but from what I
remember from many years of chemistry in high school and college
(unfortunately many years ago at this point), I think you're seeing the
copper reacting, not something it's alloyed with.

- -- 
Craig S. Cottingham
craig at cottingham.net
Olathe, KS



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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:36:43 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Copper Metallurgy

Let me start by saying that I don't know a lot about copper, which 
sounds stupid considering the number of years I have been working with 
it as a homebrewer, but there you go. I know more about stainless and 
aluminum.
Anywho... Copper piping of any kind is pure copper or nearly so (>99%). 
The stiff copper water pipe is hardened thru cold working (extrusion) 
compared to annealed soft copper tubing. Copper is more corrosion 
resistant than the yellow brasses that we use for fittings. It has 
Excellent resistance to Acetic Acid, Tannic Acid, Beer, Aldehydes, 
Alcohols, and (oh, pick one...) ethyl acetate. It has Fair to Good 
resistance to Hydrochloric (Muriatic) Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Sulfuric 
Acid, 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, Sodium Hydroxide, Sodium Hypochlorite, and 
Sea Water. It has Poor resistance to Nitric Acid.
Brass typically is one level less than copper in all the above 
environments.

Regarding the black layer inside a new CounterFlow Chiller, It could be 
the action of a caustic rinse, or it could be the result of heat and 
flux. I will have to call B3 and ask how they make them, and that 
information may be proprietary. I am guessing that the black oxide form 
is Cupric Oxide or CuO. Dave Burley might know that one for sure.

In general, I would say that either Acetic or Hydrochloric should work 
to remove the black layer. Be sure to rinse thoroughly afterwards to 
avoid forming other residual deposits.

Hmmm, this is interesting: "Copper and its alloys are unique among the 
corrosion-resistant alloys in that they do not form a truly passive 
corrosion product film. In aquesous environments at ambient 
temperatures, the corrosion product predominantly responsible for 
protection is cuprous oxide (Cu2O). This Cu2O film is adherent and 
follows parabolic growth kinetics. (It) is a p-type semiconductor. For 
the corrosion to proceed, copper ions and electrons must migrate thru 
the Cu2O film. (Alloying with) aluminum, zinc, tin, iron and nickel 
generally reduce corrosion rate significantly.
Source: ASM Metals Handbook, 9th Ed., Volume 13 - Corrosion.

Hope this helps!
John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:43:48 -0600
From: "Darth Marley" <darthmarley at comcast.net>
Subject: Freezer conversion completed.

Well, I failed in my goal of persuading my buddy from drilling through the
freezer.

Fortunately, he did not hit a coil, but did drill quite close to one.

I strongly recomed constructing a wooden collar instead, as disaster could
have ensued.



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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 8:44:30 -0500
From: stjones1 at chartertn.net
Subject: Club Project

Greetings brewers.
Our club has come up with an idea for an interesting club
project and I'd like to hear some comments on it,
especially from Jeff.

12 of us are going to brew 5 gallons each of a barleywine,
each using our own recipe. We will each ferment in our own
primaries, then rack to secondaries for a month or so. Our
only criteria is that it needs to fall roughly within the
OG and IBU guidelines for the style.

We will acquire a 'freshly emptied' bourbon barrel (53
gallons), then ceremoniously gather together with our
secondaries and after a sip of each batch to ensure
worthiness blend them into the bourbon barrel. The
leftover brew will be kept in a corny and used to keep
the barrel topped up.

A couple of times a year, we will draw off 5 gallons into
a corny, force carbonate, and serve at club special
events. The barrel will be topped up with a new 5 gallon
batch brewed a month or so before. In this way it will
become a perpetual Solara Bourbon Barrel Barleywine. We
will build a rack so that the barrel lays horizontally,
tall enough to siphon into a corny. A 2 hole rubber
stopper will be used for the bung, with an SS racking
tube (a short one - the end would be less than halfway
into the barrel) in one hole, and an airlock in the
other. We plan to feed CO2 into one hole to push the beer
out the racking cane to fill a corny, and reverse the
process to fill the barrel.

I've found a place that will sell us a 'freshly emptied'
once-used bourbon barrel pretty cheaply ($45). I would
guess that it would still be wet from the bourbon on the
inside, and as such should be sanitary enough to fill
without further treatment.

So, a few questions for you:

If the barrel is still wet inside, could it be considered
sanitary? Or, if it is dry, the plan is to fill with water
and soak for several days, then empty it, pour in a half-
gallon of everclear with a bit over a pint of water to
make a 70% solution, then roll it around to coat the
interior. Will that sanitize it?

If we keep it topped up and sealed from the atmosphere, is
it reasonable to assume that oxidation will be kept to a
minimum? What about putting some kind of sealer on the
exterior of the barrel? Would the filled barrel hold a few
psi of CO2 pressure without quickly emptying the bottle?

Any alternative suggestions to the plumbing plan?

Beginning to salivate profusely,
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR




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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:41:24 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Club Project

Steve Jones of Johnson City, TN solicits my thoughts on a project he 
has mentioned to me before that is inspired in part by my article in 
Zymurgy a few years ago on what I called "Solera Ale" (Steve - please 
note the correct spelling).  To catch up those who came in late, this 
is a keg of old ale that I occasionally top up with new ale to 
replace what I've drawn off.  This is inspired by the solera system 
of blending sherry in Jerez, Spain.

After several years of keeping my solera, it happily developed a 
friendly lactic acid producing bacterial and or wild yeast resident 
culture.  The resulting ale is something like a Flanders brown ale or 
perhaps a strong Sussex sour ale.  It is at its best a few months 
after a new batch of ale is added, and I have been remiss in not 
replenishing it for a couple of years.  It's quite austere these days.

Steve's club project is something that's been roaming around in my 
mind as well (lots of extra roaming room there) since I saw the 
bourbon barrel of royal imperial stout that the Chicago clubs had 
done for the National Homebrew Conference last June.  I haven't done 
anything to get it going here.  Nice to see that Steve is.  I like 
the project design.

>A couple of times a year, we will draw off 5 gallons into a corny, 
>force carbonate, and serve at club special events.

I am hoping that the inventor of Solera Ale will get some!

>  If the barrel is still wet inside, could it be considered sanitary? 
>Or, if it is dry, the plan is to fill with water and soak for 
>several days, then empty it, pour in a half-gallon of everclear with 
>a bit over a pint of water to make a 70% solution, then roll it 
>around to coat the interior. Will that sanitize it?

I think it would be very sanitary if wet, but if it dried out it 
would have several problems, including possible leakage until it was 
soaked with water, which might introduce spoilage organisms.  As I 
recall, the Chicago crowd had a spoilage problem in their barrel - 
phenolics, I think.

I think the answer is to get an absolutely newly dumped barrel.  You 
live close enough to the source that a road trip might work.  You 
might be able to get some enthusiasm for this project from a bourbon 
distillery, especially one of the smaller ones.  Maybe Maker's Mark? 
I think Bill Samuels, Jr. might just be the kind of guiy to like this 
kind of project.  He is reported to have a barrel of single malt 
Scotch (Glenmorangie?) aging in his Kentucky warehouse and a barrel 
of MM is aging in the Scottish distillery's warehouse.  Just to see 
how they differ.  And MM has the highest standards for barrels, 
insisting that the oak be air dried, not kiln dried.  They send 
much/most/all (?) of their barrels to Scotland to be refilled with 
malt whisky.  I have no connections but perhaps another HBDer does.

And I think Glyn Crossno lives very near George Dickel, maker of the 
best (IMO) Tennessee whisky, first cousin of bourbon.  Glyn?  Any 
connections?

>  If we keep it topped up and sealed from the atmosphere, is it 
>reasonable to assume that oxidation will be kept to a minimum?

I have no idea how fast O2 permeates oak staves, nor of the effect 
this would have on a strong ale.  It has beneficial effects on 
whiskey, up to a point.

>What about putting some kind of sealer on the exterior of the barrel?

That would seem to be a solution.  Bright red enamel paint!  Whatever 
you chose, you'd want to make sure the fumes or odor didn't taint the 
barrel.  Natural shellac might be a choice as it is cut with alcohol.

>Would the filled barrel hold a few psi of CO2 pressure without 
>quickly emptying the bottle?

I don't understand what you mean about "emptying the bottle."

There have been some microbreweries that have aged beer in bourbon 
barrels.  I'll bet HBDers are in touch with them.  They may have some 
practical suggestions.

>Beginning to salivate profusely,

Same here!  AABGers, what do you think.  Can we try this too?

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:07:36 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Clinitest tabs

Please,

Larger is good, but lager is better, and a larger lager is the best!

:>))

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:35:06 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re:Combining yeasts

Pat, the thing to keep in mind is that you have absolutely no control over 
which yeast will dominate, or what character each will provide.  It's a 
total crapshoot.  Not that it won't work, but there's no way to predict 
what will happen.  You might consider splitting the batch, fermenting each 
half with a different yeast, and blending them when they're done.

         ---------------->Denny

At 12:32 AM 3/5/04 -0500, Pat Reddy wrote:

>I searched old posts, quickly, for anything on this subject and didn't come
>up with much.
>
>I've found myself torn between 2 yeasts for a particular batch several times
>and often considered what would be the result if I simply mixed the two.
>I'd create a mammoth starter of each and then mix just prior to pitching.
>What might I take into consideration before doing this?  How similar must
>the two yeast's flocculation, attenuation, temperature preference, etc. be?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Pat Reddy
>River Bound Brewing
>St. Louis, MO




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Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:49:23 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: acetone odor

Much like Zemo, I spent enough time in a chemistry lab to know the smell 
of acetone.  Well, I mean, it *could* be something else but it really 
does smell like nail polish remover.  I've had some Belgian trippels 
take on the same odor which will mellow over time...just never had it 
with a wheat yeast before.  Oh well.  To the keg it goes, how it will 
taste nobody knows.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/





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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:05:28 -0500
From: "Dave Thompson" <thompsdc at mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler

Well I've been lurking around the HBD for quite some time, and am
finally preparing for my first all grain batch.  I'm making a
mash/lauter tun using a cooler and a copper pipe manifold.  My question
is this:  I have a 48 qt rectangular cooler.  I will be brewing ~5Gal
batches.  Is 48qt too big?  Ie will the grain bed depth be too shallow?
Most of my batches will have a relatively normal OG...so I guess that
means I'll be using about 9 lbs of grain.  If anyone has any experience
lautering a 5 gallon batch in a 48qt rectangular cooler, any feedback
would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Dave in Hamilton, Ontario.

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:13:36 -0500
From: NO Spam <nospam02 at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: RE: freezer conversion


There is a great article that was published in Zymurgy
AGES ago for a wooden collar on a chest freezer.

Here's a web page with one somebody built:
http://www.buckbrewery.com/FreezerConversion.htm

I seem to remember that the one in Zymurgy had a straight
wooden front and the 2 sides were cut angular, so you just
insert it between the freezer and the lid.  It is not bolted,
glued, screwed, etc.  It just sort of sits there and the
weight of the lid holds it.  You then drill holes
in the wood and slide your taps through that, rather
than drill holes in the freezer itself.  A web search
not finding that article, though.  hmmm...

I know 2 guys who have made the setup from Zymurgy, and
they both love it.

Now, a word of caution - I've personally burned out
2 good chest freezers using a Johnson Control and running
them at beer serving temp - above freezing.  I've been
told by  more than one appliance guy that this is a very
BAD idea.  These freezers are not made to run constantly
at temperatures above freezing.  It is VERY hard on
the compressors.  And when you need a new compressor,
that usually costs as much as buying a new chest
freezer, if not more.

Proceed at your own risk.

Bill



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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 03:37:45 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Cleaning Copper

For cleaning copper try household ammonia. It's not a quick reaction 
but it does seem to clean off oxide after a good soak. If the ammonia 
turns a pretty blue you know the job is getting done. Think Brasso.

A.J.



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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:19:26 -0600
From: "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com>
Subject: kegs/excess foam

    Went to a restaurant this afternoon and ordered a Fat Tire.  They said
that their keg was too warm, and all the beer was coming out as foam so I
would have to wait till the keg cooled down.  What causes this?  Is it simply
that the warmer beer can't hold as much dissolved gas, so the beer is quickly
degassing, or is there something else going on?
    Related point:  I recently tried to siphon beer from a cold keg into cold
bottles and had excess foam.  I had already tried to dispense using just a
pound or two of pressure, but my keg had a gas leak, so I couldn't maintain a
steady pressure.  So, I tried taking the lid off and siphoning directly into
bottles.  I could not get a clear siphon.  It was almost all foam.  Ended up
having to quit because there was so much overflow.  I am wondering if my
problem might somehow be related to the problem that the restaurant was
having.  Any thoughts?

 -Steve (Arkansas Steve)




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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:59:40 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Black copper

Brewsters:

Fred Johnson is doing some chemistry and found that copper metal will produce
a black deposit in caustic solution which is removable by hydrochloric acid.

Copper metal is a funny beast as it is below hydrogen in the electrochemical
series and is therefore not soluble in non-oxidizing acids. The copper oxides
and hydroxides are soluble in these acids, however. If you have bare copper
metal in a moist air environment it will oxidize to the
oxide/hydroxide/carbonate patina so well noted on those beautiful copper metal
based statues and roofs in Europe.

Basically, the same thing goes on on your chiller surface. The copper is
oxidized to a copper oxide derivative which is formed on the surface The dull
appearing tannish brown oxide of copper is soluble in the organic acids of
your beer and a very slight amount of copper ( as the oxide)  is dissolved.
The yeast love it as they need a very tiny amount for their metabolism.

However, if this does not suit your sensibilities you can clean your chiller
with white vinegar or very dilute muriatic acid followed by a rinse with
sanitary water before using it with your beer.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:36:56 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Combining yeasts

Pat and Debbie ask,

>I searched old posts, quickly, for anything on this subject and didn't come
>up with much.

That has a lot to do with the loss of Spencer's excellent search
engine ... much missed.  The topic has been covered but not recently.

>I've found myself torn between 2 yeasts for a particular batch several
times
>and often considered what would be the result if I simply mixed the two.
>I'd create a mammoth starter of each and then mix just prior to pitching.
>What might I take into consideration before doing this?  How similar must
>the two yeast's flocculation, attenuation, temperature preference, etc. be?

You can mix any two (or more) brewing yeasts, and except for the rare
cases where the two co-flocculate more readily then either alone, or one
has a killer yeast (K-factor) in it's hide which causes one to dominate
you shouldn't have any difficulty obtaining a competent fermentation by
mixing strains.

The problem with mixed strain fermenting is that the results are NEVER
reproducible and never can be.  Any minor shift in the fermenting
environment will cause a radical shift in the success of one strain over the
other.  The mismatches in growth are radically exaggerated if you ever
repitch
the combined yeasts.

If you want to play with mixed strain fermenting to satisfy your curiosity,
or to indulge your right brain
artsy-craftsy nature or perhaps to purposely make an unreproducible beer
then go for it.  It won't cause any harm and will almost certainly make fine
beer.

If you want to make reproducible beer, or if you want to be able to learn
from your fermentation experience then pure culture brewing is a must.   If
you want the flavor impact from two different strains then ferment split
batch pure ferments and mix the resulting beers.  This gives you the
advantage of choosing the mixing ratio after the beer is finished.  It will
also dramatically show you the flavor of the two yeast on the same wort
side-by-side.  That comparative info is invaluable to a serious brewer.

 -Steve





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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 12:18:23 -0600
From: "The Mad Brewer" <seansgroups at mts.net>
Subject: RE.: combing yeasts

Pat Reddy asks about attenuation as a factor in combining yeasts.  From what
I understand of successful mixed strains, the trick is to combine two yeasts
of strongly different characteristics.  A fast-growing unattenuative yeast
and a slower highly attenuative yeast can reach a steady state over a few
batches.  A similar phenomenon can operate between *Saccharomyces* and
*Brettanomyces* in lambic brewing.

The second yeast doesn't have to have a high population to survive and
contribute dryness to the beer.

Sean Richens




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Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:40:19 -0500
From: Scott McAfee <scmcafee at cox.net>
Subject: Looking for guidance on welding

After a particularly botched job on hiring a professional to weld a stainless
steel NPT fitting to my new 100qt brew kettle, I've decided to take up welding
as a new hobby.

I've had some welds done on my SS pots in the past, and although they were
ugly, they were serviceable with some grinding.   With the latest job I 
guess I
could've tried harder to find a TIG/stainless specialist, but settled on
someone nearby.  I should've been concerned when one of the staff looked at 
the
finished weld and said, "that's a very tough job".  It wasn't till I got home
that I saw the two good size holes burned in the kettle wall about an inch 
from
the fitting.  After a second effort it looked like the holes were filled, but
they were still there as pinholes.  Rather than take it back a third time, I
decided it was time for me to learn to weld.

So I picked up some books at the library.  Modern Welding is a super textbook,
and I feel like I've learned enough to rent a welder and perhaps buy one if 
I'm
not completely incompetent with the rental.  I can't afford a TIG welder, so
I'd love some advice on what kind of MIG welder to start with.  Again, I don't
mind ugly welds as long as they hold wort.  I can grind and have some decent
nitric acid on hand to fight corrosion.  Cost is a big factor, and I'm 
willing to
practice quite a bit to use something cheaper but perhaps not quite so user
friendly.

I figure most of my welding will be welding fittings to containers (pots,
hoppers (fermenters), etc.), and maybe an aluminum frame for a tiered brew
stand.

It looks like the tough part of welding fittings is that you have a pretty
thick walled fitting and a thin walled pot.  From the textbook, it looks like
there are three main types of welds with MIG: short circuit, globular 
transfer,
and spray transfer.  Short circuit looks like the best for thin walled metals
using low current, but I'm guessing this doesn't work to well for a thicker
walled fitting welded to a thin wall vessel.  I don't really know, of course.

So my two questions are:

1) what's the best transfer method for welding fittings to kettle walls, and
2) What are recommendations for relatively inexpensive MIG welders for the
task.

Thanks in advance,
Scott
scmcafee at cox.net

P.S. Thanks to John Palmer for his many words of wisdom on this topic



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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 03:29:35 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Black copper

Brewsters:

I hope this is not a repeat or, if so, the janitors catch it. Anymore, I just
don't open even legitimate looking attachments to stuff like "your message was
not delivered".

- -----------------

Fred Johnson is doing some chemistry and found that copper metal will produce
a black deposit in caustic solution which is removable by hydrochloric acid.

Copper metal is a funny beast as it is below hydrogen in the electrochemical
series and is therefore not soluble in non-oxidizing acids. The copper oxides
and hydroxides are soluble in these acids, however. If you have bare copper
metal in a moist air environment it will oxidize to the
oxide/hydroxide/carbonate patina so well noted on those beautiful copper metal
based statues and roofs in Europe.

Basically, the same thing goes on on your chiller surface. The copper is
oxidized to a copper oxide derivative which is formed on the surface The dull
appearing tannish brown oxide of copper is soluble in the organic acids of
your beer and a very slight amount of copper ( as the oxide)  is dissolved.
The yeast love it as they need a very tiny amount for their metabolism.

However, if this does not suit your sensibilities you can clean your chiller
with white vinegar or very dilute muriatic acid followed by a rinse with
sanitary water before using it with your beer.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:30:55 -0500
From: "Christopher Clair" <buzz at netreach.net>
Subject: 11th Annual BUZZ Off Home Brew Competition

Brewers Unlimited Zany Zymurgists (BUZZ) is proud to announce that the 2004
BUZZ Off home brew competition will be held on Saturday, May 22nd at Iron
Hill Brewery & Restaurant in West Chester, PA.  For another year we will be
a qualifying event for the prestigious Masters Championship of Amateur
Brewing (MCAB) as well as the Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year.  All
BJCP recognized styles including meads and ciders are eligible for entry.
For complete details and forms, please visit the BUZZ web site at
http://hbd.org/buzz.

Entries will be accepted between April 26th and May 16th.  For drop off and
mail in locations please refer to the BUZZ web site.  Please, do not send
entries to Iron Hill.

BJCP Judges and stewards will be needed. If you are interested please
contact me or another committee member (contact information can be found on
the web site). All judges must be BJCP certified.

Good luck and cheers!

Christopher Clair
buzz at netreach.net
http://hbd.org/buzz

"The mouth of a perfectly happy man is filled with beer."
 - Ancient Egyptian Wisdom, 2200 B.C.




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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:04:17 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary (part1)

Aaron Martin Linder tries his first barleywine ...

> [...]barleywine [...] 5 gallons at 1.110 after pitching the starter.
>The problem was that after 2 weeks I checked
>the primary, and the gravity was 1.045!!! I've never had such
> a poor result with White Labs Dry English Ale yeast!

Don't blame the yeast - blame the yeast manager !  The ONLY reason
to call this a *poor* result is your method of measuring is flawed.
Consider the yeast cell's POV.

A typical 5gal, 1.048SG wort has about 1600 grams of fermentables, this
barleywine has around 3750 grams and the yeast have already fermented 2800
grams.  They've fermented 1.75 times normal amount under terrific stresses.
You should give those yeast a medal and fine burial - they did a tremendous
amount of fermenting under very difficult conditions.

Fact list:

1/ Yeast ferment sugar for energy.
2/ Yeast cell growth is the primary requirement for energy in normal brewery
   ferments.
3/ When yeast cease to grow they use far less energy (ferment slowly)
   and begin to flocculate.  When fully dormant they use very little energy.
4/ Many factors can stop yeast growth - lack of oxygen products(lipids
   made with oxygen) and lack of amino acids top the list in common
   brewing conditions.
5/ Yeast have the capacity to incorporate their tiny oxygen requirement in
   lipid  precursors, then share these among 3 or perhaps 4 generations in
   anaerobic conditions.  When the lipids become too scarce growth stops
   (other conditions can prevent growth).
6/ High gravity fermentation causes several growth inhibitions for yeast
a/  more wort soluble increases osmotic pressure which stress yeast.
   Imagine each molecule of solute beating the yeast cell surface like a
   hail storm.  As solute molecules "accidentally"  make it thru the cell
   membrane the yeast must "pump" them back out against the gradient.
   The cell membrane that prevents this ingress is primarily made
   of lipids (see 5/) which directly relate to the cell oxygen-lipid status.
 b/ CO2 in solution changes cell pH and ion transfer characteristics and the
   internal cell  pH reduction reduces the rate at which cells obtain energy
   via cellular enzymatic  processes.
 c/ Alcohol is a particularly pernicious since 1/2 mole of glucose, 1/4 mole
   of maltose or 1/6th mole of maltotriose each ferments to 1 mole of
   ethanol - doubling, quadrupling or sextupling the osmotic pressure
   component !. Ethanol is a good solvent and difficult to keep out of the
   cell (membranes more permeable to ethanol)

In a normal ferment we aerate once then ferment anaerobically, effectively
asking our yeast:  "Hey guys - take a big gulp of oxygen, make lots of
lipids, share these with your children, grandchildren, g-grandchildren
and even some g-g-grandchildren.  You aren't getting any more O2 or lipids
till then.  BTW guys, the more you ferment the more osmo-stress you'll have
and the more lipids you'll *wish* you had - not gonna happen".  For ale
yeast we typically get an 8x or 10x increase in the yeast mass and cell
count so we get 3 or 3.3 generation of yeast growth with no oxygen
addition.

Yeast ferment 20 grams of sugars for every 1gm of yeast dry mass growth
(Balling eqn).  A "normal" (5gal, 12P) batch w/ ~1600gm of fermentables
requires the growth of 80 grams of yeast growth.   If we expect 3 or 3.3
generations of yeast (8x or 10x growth) then we should pitch 8 or 10
grams of yeast [dry mass] of yeast.

G.Fix and other sources suggest pitching around 1.5 Billion(10^9)
cells per liter per degree Plato, so for 5gal at 12P we need:
  1.5B cell * 19L * 12P = 342B cells.  *Typical* dry cell mass is 20-40
picograms [10-^12gm ].  So the suggested rate is about 10.2 grams !
The same as we calculated above.

For Aaron's barleywine w/ 3750gm of fermentables he must grow abt
190grams of yeast, but yeast will stop reproducing *before* they hit the
third generation under the extreme stress conditions of a late barleywine
ferment.  There simply isn't enough lipids to split up 8 or 10 ways and
still have viable cells given the environment.  You need more than 19
grams of yeast to achieve 190gms of growth in a barleywine.

Some brewing yeast are known to tolerate osmo-pressure better then others.
It's likely that, like wine yeast, these varieties accumulate more lipids in
the early phase. [These varieties may work better in underpitching
situations for the same reason].

There is also a lot of baloney about alcohol intolerance in brewing yeast.
Virtually any brewing yeast can tolerate 10% ABV and more *IF* they
are given enough O2 or lipids.  This  is the basis of progressive feedings
used for very high gravity. It's easier to progressively re-pitch well
aerated yeast than to add to gravity slowly.

> I am planning on making a starter with some "Red
> Star Champagne" yeast, dry, to pitch into the secondary.

Yes, repitching is necessary, it's time to send in a fresh second team.
For a barleywine you should expect this to happen.

>do the serious brewers amongst you use an oxygen [...] or just shake
[..]  like I do for a 1.036-1.085 gravity[...].

Around 1.032-1.065 SG you can use normal fermentation practice. Scaling
pitching rate up with gravity is sufficient.  I wouldn't reuse a yeast cake
from the high end of that range, but it would probably work.  Beyond 1.065
you are asking for a *LOT* of performance from your yeast.  Choosing the
right yeast and the right pitching levels and providing enough oxygen to the
yeast is critical. We'll leave other factors till another day.

I have pure oxygen but rarely use it for brewing !  I actively aerate
starters w/ a stir plate and  I aerate wort with air.  In the case of a
barleywine you need more O2 and the wort holds a bit  less.  Pure O2 would
help, but it's probably *more* effective to aerate the wort every few hours
for the first 12hrs after pitching.  You can get as much oxygen into
solution with 2 air aerations as one pure O2 aeration.  You can re-aerate
pitched wort safely until about the time you see the first CO2 bubbles ...
up to 24 hours according to Fix.  At some point aeration will create nasty
flavors from fermentation by-products and seriously damage flavor. NEVER
aerate half fermented wort/beer.

Shaking a carboy works but it takes time and a lot of shaking.  A cheap
aquarium pump, a sub-micron inline air filter and a well sanitized aeration
stone (doesn't have to be cintered stainless) do a better job for ~$25..

 -S




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Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 11:02:54 -0600
From: Ralph Link <ralphl at shaw.ca>
Subject: local micros

I will be in the phoenix Mesa area late March. Can anyone suggest best
of the local watering holes (Micro Brewery)
Private email is fine. 
Thanks for the help
Ralph Link 



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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:40:37 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary/"McDonald's effect" (part 2)

(continued)

>My second question is this:
>Is it wise to pitch the champagne yeast to secondary, AND did my gravity
>go down due to the clarification of the beer or the reduction of
>sugar-content?  (i.e. does gravity change significantly due to "stuff"
>other than sugar settling out of the wort?)

Gravity reading is affected by particulate in suspension, but the biggest
variable in late gravity readings is the CO2 bubbles clinging to the
hydrometer.  If you measured to avoid the CO2 error, then the 5 degree drop
is likely due to slow fermentation.

Re-pitching is necessary.  Champagne yeast (S.bayanus) is an ancestor of
lager yeast, great cold and stress tolerance, gives a clean neutral flavor.
If you had planned in advance you might have created a second starter of
your ale yeast and which would have preserved it's flavor character moreso.
For these re-pitchings I have some very strong advise: ALWAYS create a very
well aerated small starter for repitching.  The growth limiting factor in
high-grav brewing is often lipids from oxygen and there is no acceptable way
to introduce oxygen or lipids into the half-fermented beer.  You must
re-pitch yeast from an O2- lipid rich environment.

Most dry yeast and RTP yeast vendors claim their yeast are already rich in
lipids.  My *hunch* is that this claim is quite true for dry yeasts and
somewhat doubtful for live-culture RTPs.  I'd like to see a lipid assay of a
Lallemand dry pack vs a WhiteLabs "wet" RTP.

Aaron has roughly another 1000gm of sugar to ferment, or 50gms of yeast to
grow so he'll almost certainly need more than 5 grams dry re-pitch yeast to
finish this barleywine.  Considering osmo and alcohol stress (and other
factors not discussed here) the late pitching is unlikely to achieve 10x
growth.

>My last question is this:
>I've noticed that my barleywine has a very pleasant apricot-like taste.
> [...]  In mashing the brew I used a 10 gallon Igloo "McDonald's"
>**snicker** cooler that I found on the side of the road.  It had a
>distinct smell of "[...]
>[... due to container or yeast ?...]

Aaron, it's possible to be too frugal !  Economic consideration should
inform you that goods are usually discarded when they are unfit for their
intended purpose (a food container in this case).  Heed that consideration !

TSP is an exquisite cleaner, but plastics retain flavors and odors the way
Aaron holds onto nickels.  Mashing is likely to bring some of these flavors
out.  Also hi-grav beers always have higher absolute and relative levels of
fusels and esters than their low grav counterparts.  I posted on this a
few weeks back.  This makes hi-grav brewing a particular challenge.

 -S




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Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 12:44:49 -0800
From: David <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
Subject: kegging

Dear HBDrs,
   I'm new to kegging and am curious about a few things. I know if I set the
regulator on my CO2 to the recommended pressure, in about 2 days I will have
my beer carbonated without rocking. I've done that and I've also set the gas
to the out port and rocked it to infuse quickly and all is just fine. But
what I would like to know is can I bump up the pressure to a point and
carbonate in a much shorter time?-still without rocking. Say a few hours?
Cornies can take high pressures can't they? Is there a chart I can refer to?
   Also, when I was bottling I'd keep the bottles at 65 or so for up to 2
weeks to condition but since I'm now kegging it stays much cooler right out
of the secondary. Is this affecting aging or maturing by slowing down the
process?

Thanks,
David Brandt
Cloverdale, CA 


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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:39 -0500
From: "Kerry Drake" <kerry.drake at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Make it more bitter

Dave relents about his too sweet ESB:

>Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:46:38 -0500
>From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
>Subject: Make it more Bitter?

>OK, I screwed up.  I added too much 60L Crystal and Special B to what was
supposed to be an ESB.  It's kegged in a >Corny keg, and it's probably OK,
but I'd like it a lot more bitter.  How about boiling an ounce of hops in
plain >water for a while, and add it to the keg?

>I did a Rager calculation, for an ounce of 15% AA Magnum hops, boiled for
18 minutes in SG = 1.000, I should be able >to get 20 IBU.  It might even
add significant hop flavor.  Am I dreaming, or do you think this might
actually work?

A few months ago I had a batch of pale ale that, although not too sweet,
needed more bitterness and hop flavor.  I did exactly what you are
contemplating, making a hop tea, that is.  I boiled about an ounce of
cascade for 45 minutes in two quarts of water, let it cool and added it to
the keg.  It was less than a quart after 45 minutes of boiling.  Initially,
the hop flavor was over whelming.  With time it mellowed and was great.

Kerry




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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:42:57 +1000
From: "John Kennedy" <johnk at readybake.com.au>
Subject: 


Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:12:29 -0500
 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
 Subject: acetone in weizen

 I brewed up 10 gallons of wheat beer about a month ago. 5 gallons went
 right into a corny after primary fermentation and 5 stayed in my
 MiniBrew fermenter for a few more weeks. Fermented with WhiteLabs
 WLP380 (Hefeweizen IV).

 Hi Marc,
 I too have had the same problem from the Hefeweizen IV, it makes mouth wash
 out of good beer. I think the yeast has to much wild yeast in it, witch
 takes over.

 John K




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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:22:54 -0800
From: "Jamil Zainasheff" <jamilz at citlink.net>
Subject: NHC First Round - CA Region, Judges and Stewards Needed

		   American Homebrewers Association
	      First Round National Homebrew Competition
			California Region 2004

It is nearly time to judge the first round of the 26th Annual National
Homebrew Competition once again. We need your help as judges and stewards to
ensure a high quality competition. This year the first round judging duties
are being shared between two locations, one in Canoga Park, CA and the other
in San Diego, CA. You are welcome to judge at either location, whichever is
most convenient for you.

If you are interested in judging or stewarding in SAN DIEGO, please register
online at
http://www.brewingcompetition.com

If you are interested in judging or stewarding in CANOGA PARK, please
register online at
http://www.maltosefalcons.com


- --------------------------------------------------
SAN DIEGO, CA:
- --------------------------------------------------
When:
Judging starts Friday April 23 at 7:00 pm and Saturday April 24th at 10:00
am. Please arrive at least 30 minutes early to check in, have a bite to eat,
and chat with your fellow judges.

Where:
St. Dunstan's Episcopal Church
6556 Park Ridge Blvd.
San Diego, CA 92120

Register: http://www.brewingcompetition.com
You'll also find directions to St. Dunstan's on the web site.

Peter Zien, Judge Coordinator
pz at alesmith.com

Jamil Zainasheff, Technical Support
jamilz at citlink.net

- --------------------------------------------------
CANOGA PARK, CA:
- --------------------------------------------------
When:
Judging Saturday April 24th at 9:00 am. Please make certain you arrive on
time to ensure a prompt start.

Where:
St Martins
7136 Winnetka
Canoga Park, CA

Register: http://www.maltosefalcons.com/

Martin Carman, Judge Coordinator
carman1 at attglobal.net



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---