HOMEBREW Digest #4493 Sun 07 March 2004


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Contents:
  Re: Copper cleaning ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  Copper Metallurgy (John Palmer)
  Freezer conversion completed. ("Darth Marley")
  Club Project (stjones1)
  Re: Club Project (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Clinitest tabs ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re:Combining yeasts (Denny Conn)
  acetone odor (Marc Sedam)
  Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler ("Dave Thompson")
  RE: freezer conversion (NO Spam)
  Cleaning Copper ("A.J deLange")
  kegs/excess foam ("Steve Arnold")
  Black copper ("Dave Burley")
  re: Combining yeasts ("-S")
  RE.: combing yeasts ("The Mad Brewer")
  Looking for guidance on welding (Scott McAfee)
  Black copper ("Dave Burley")
  11th Annual BUZZ Off Home Brew Competition ("Christopher Clair")
  re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary (part1) ("-S")
  local micros (Ralph Link)
  re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary/"McDonald's effect" (part 2) ("-S")
  kegging (David)
  RE: Make it more bitter ("Kerry Drake")
   ("John Kennedy")
  NHC First Round - CA Region, Judges and Stewards Needed ("Jamil Zainasheff")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 05 Mar 2004 00:22:55 -0600 From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig at cottingham.net> Subject: Re: Copper cleaning On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 07:14, Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com> wrote in HBD #4492: > Ben says the inner copper tubing in his new counter flow chiller is > black and asks for help cleaning it. Sounds like cupric oxide -- CuO. According to my old, old copy of the Merck Index, it's a "black to brownish-black amorphous or crystalline powder or granules." Unfortunately, I wasn't paying attention when the original post went flying by. > For example, I know that some copper tubing is softer than others, > which can only be evidence of a different composition, and I suspect > that the copper tubing used in counter flow chillers, which likely > came coiled up, may be very different than the straight copper tubing > I've been playing with and used for general plumbing purposese. Not necessarily. According to http://www.matweb.com/reference/copper-alloys.asp : "Many combinations of ductility, impact resistance, hardness, conductivity, and strength can be obtained by varying the heat treatment times and temperatures." > Anyway, with all that said, I was able to produce a black deposit on > copper with a prolonged exposure to fairly strong caustic (sodium > hydroxide). This could be removed with brief exposure to dilute > muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid). I haven't tested other acids (such > as vinegar). >From the Merck Index: "Practically insoluble in water, alcohols; soluble in dilute acids; slowly soluble in ammonia." In other words, vinegar should work. :-) > After muriatic acid treatment, the copper becomes pinkish and shiny. > With time (exposure to air), the copper will slowly dull and can again > be restored with brief exposure to muriatic acid. That's more copper oxidation, only this time it's cuprous oxide -- Cu2O. "Color may be yellow, red, or brown.... Practically insoluble in water; soluble in ammonium; in hydrochloric acid.... With dilute sulfuric acid or dilute nitric acid." > I would love to hear from the metallurgists out there on this. I'm not > at all sure whether I'm observing changes to the copper itself or to > something else mixed in with the copper or machined onto the surface > of the copper (lead?). I'm not a metallurgist -- I don't even play one on TV -- but from what I remember from many years of chemistry in high school and college (unfortunately many years ago at this point), I think you're seeing the copper reacting, not something it's alloyed with. - -- Craig S. Cottingham craig at cottingham.net Olathe, KS Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:36:43 -0800 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com> Subject: Copper Metallurgy Let me start by saying that I don't know a lot about copper, which sounds stupid considering the number of years I have been working with it as a homebrewer, but there you go. I know more about stainless and aluminum. Anywho... Copper piping of any kind is pure copper or nearly so (>99%). The stiff copper water pipe is hardened thru cold working (extrusion) compared to annealed soft copper tubing. Copper is more corrosion resistant than the yellow brasses that we use for fittings. It has Excellent resistance to Acetic Acid, Tannic Acid, Beer, Aldehydes, Alcohols, and (oh, pick one...) ethyl acetate. It has Fair to Good resistance to Hydrochloric (Muriatic) Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Sulfuric Acid, 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, Sodium Hydroxide, Sodium Hypochlorite, and Sea Water. It has Poor resistance to Nitric Acid. Brass typically is one level less than copper in all the above environments. Regarding the black layer inside a new CounterFlow Chiller, It could be the action of a caustic rinse, or it could be the result of heat and flux. I will have to call B3 and ask how they make them, and that information may be proprietary. I am guessing that the black oxide form is Cupric Oxide or CuO. Dave Burley might know that one for sure. In general, I would say that either Acetic or Hydrochloric should work to remove the black layer. Be sure to rinse thoroughly afterwards to avoid forming other residual deposits. Hmmm, this is interesting: "Copper and its alloys are unique among the corrosion-resistant alloys in that they do not form a truly passive corrosion product film. In aquesous environments at ambient temperatures, the corrosion product predominantly responsible for protection is cuprous oxide (Cu2O). This Cu2O film is adherent and follows parabolic growth kinetics. (It) is a p-type semiconductor. For the corrosion to proceed, copper ions and electrons must migrate thru the Cu2O film. (Alloying with) aluminum, zinc, tin, iron and nickel generally reduce corrosion rate significantly. Source: ASM Metals Handbook, 9th Ed., Volume 13 - Corrosion. Hope this helps! John Palmer john at howtobrew.com www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 03:43:48 -0600 From: "Darth Marley" <darthmarley at comcast.net> Subject: Freezer conversion completed. Well, I failed in my goal of persuading my buddy from drilling through the freezer. Fortunately, he did not hit a coil, but did drill quite close to one. I strongly recomed constructing a wooden collar instead, as disaster could have ensued. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 8:44:30 -0500 From: stjones1 at chartertn.net Subject: Club Project Greetings brewers. Our club has come up with an idea for an interesting club project and I'd like to hear some comments on it, especially from Jeff. 12 of us are going to brew 5 gallons each of a barleywine, each using our own recipe. We will each ferment in our own primaries, then rack to secondaries for a month or so. Our only criteria is that it needs to fall roughly within the OG and IBU guidelines for the style. We will acquire a 'freshly emptied' bourbon barrel (53 gallons), then ceremoniously gather together with our secondaries and after a sip of each batch to ensure worthiness blend them into the bourbon barrel. The leftover brew will be kept in a corny and used to keep the barrel topped up. A couple of times a year, we will draw off 5 gallons into a corny, force carbonate, and serve at club special events. The barrel will be topped up with a new 5 gallon batch brewed a month or so before. In this way it will become a perpetual Solara Bourbon Barrel Barleywine. We will build a rack so that the barrel lays horizontally, tall enough to siphon into a corny. A 2 hole rubber stopper will be used for the bung, with an SS racking tube (a short one - the end would be less than halfway into the barrel) in one hole, and an airlock in the other. We plan to feed CO2 into one hole to push the beer out the racking cane to fill a corny, and reverse the process to fill the barrel. I've found a place that will sell us a 'freshly emptied' once-used bourbon barrel pretty cheaply ($45). I would guess that it would still be wet from the bourbon on the inside, and as such should be sanitary enough to fill without further treatment. So, a few questions for you: If the barrel is still wet inside, could it be considered sanitary? Or, if it is dry, the plan is to fill with water and soak for several days, then empty it, pour in a half- gallon of everclear with a bit over a pint of water to make a 70% solution, then roll it around to coat the interior. Will that sanitize it? If we keep it topped up and sealed from the atmosphere, is it reasonable to assume that oxidation will be kept to a minimum? What about putting some kind of sealer on the exterior of the barrel? Would the filled barrel hold a few psi of CO2 pressure without quickly emptying the bottle? Any alternative suggestions to the plumbing plan? Beginning to salivate profusely, Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin [421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:41:24 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Club Project Steve Jones of Johnson City, TN solicits my thoughts on a project he has mentioned to me before that is inspired in part by my article in Zymurgy a few years ago on what I called "Solera Ale" (Steve - please note the correct spelling). To catch up those who came in late, this is a keg of old ale that I occasionally top up with new ale to replace what I've drawn off. This is inspired by the solera system of blending sherry in Jerez, Spain. After several years of keeping my solera, it happily developed a friendly lactic acid producing bacterial and or wild yeast resident culture. The resulting ale is something like a Flanders brown ale or perhaps a strong Sussex sour ale. It is at its best a few months after a new batch of ale is added, and I have been remiss in not replenishing it for a couple of years. It's quite austere these days. Steve's club project is something that's been roaming around in my mind as well (lots of extra roaming room there) since I saw the bourbon barrel of royal imperial stout that the Chicago clubs had done for the National Homebrew Conference last June. I haven't done anything to get it going here. Nice to see that Steve is. I like the project design. >A couple of times a year, we will draw off 5 gallons into a corny, >force carbonate, and serve at club special events. I am hoping that the inventor of Solera Ale will get some! > If the barrel is still wet inside, could it be considered sanitary? >Or, if it is dry, the plan is to fill with water and soak for >several days, then empty it, pour in a half-gallon of everclear with >a bit over a pint of water to make a 70% solution, then roll it >around to coat the interior. Will that sanitize it? I think it would be very sanitary if wet, but if it dried out it would have several problems, including possible leakage until it was soaked with water, which might introduce spoilage organisms. As I recall, the Chicago crowd had a spoilage problem in their barrel - phenolics, I think. I think the answer is to get an absolutely newly dumped barrel. You live close enough to the source that a road trip might work. You might be able to get some enthusiasm for this project from a bourbon distillery, especially one of the smaller ones. Maybe Maker's Mark? I think Bill Samuels, Jr. might just be the kind of guiy to like this kind of project. He is reported to have a barrel of single malt Scotch (Glenmorangie?) aging in his Kentucky warehouse and a barrel of MM is aging in the Scottish distillery's warehouse. Just to see how they differ. And MM has the highest standards for barrels, insisting that the oak be air dried, not kiln dried. They send much/most/all (?) of their barrels to Scotland to be refilled with malt whisky. I have no connections but perhaps another HBDer does. And I think Glyn Crossno lives very near George Dickel, maker of the best (IMO) Tennessee whisky, first cousin of bourbon. Glyn? Any connections? > If we keep it topped up and sealed from the atmosphere, is it >reasonable to assume that oxidation will be kept to a minimum? I have no idea how fast O2 permeates oak staves, nor of the effect this would have on a strong ale. It has beneficial effects on whiskey, up to a point. >What about putting some kind of sealer on the exterior of the barrel? That would seem to be a solution. Bright red enamel paint! Whatever you chose, you'd want to make sure the fumes or odor didn't taint the barrel. Natural shellac might be a choice as it is cut with alcohol. >Would the filled barrel hold a few psi of CO2 pressure without >quickly emptying the bottle? I don't understand what you mean about "emptying the bottle." There have been some microbreweries that have aged beer in bourbon barrels. I'll bet HBDers are in touch with them. They may have some practical suggestions. >Beginning to salivate profusely, Same here! AABGers, what do you think. Can we try this too? Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:07:36 -0600 From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net> Subject: RE: Clinitest tabs Please, Larger is good, but lager is better, and a larger lager is the best! :>)) Ron ===== Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA www.hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:35:06 -0800 From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com> Subject: Re:Combining yeasts Pat, the thing to keep in mind is that you have absolutely no control over which yeast will dominate, or what character each will provide. It's a total crapshoot. Not that it won't work, but there's no way to predict what will happen. You might consider splitting the batch, fermenting each half with a different yeast, and blending them when they're done. ---------------->Denny At 12:32 AM 3/5/04 -0500, Pat Reddy wrote: >I searched old posts, quickly, for anything on this subject and didn't come >up with much. > >I've found myself torn between 2 yeasts for a particular batch several times >and often considered what would be the result if I simply mixed the two. >I'd create a mammoth starter of each and then mix just prior to pitching. >What might I take into consideration before doing this? How similar must >the two yeast's flocculation, attenuation, temperature preference, etc. be? > >Thanks. > >Pat Reddy >River Bound Brewing >St. Louis, MO Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:49:23 -0500 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: acetone odor Much like Zemo, I spent enough time in a chemistry lab to know the smell of acetone. Well, I mean, it *could* be something else but it really does smell like nail polish remover. I've had some Belgian trippels take on the same odor which will mellow over time...just never had it with a wheat yeast before. Oh well. To the keg it goes, how it will taste nobody knows. - -- Marc Sedam Associate Director Office of Technology Development The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-4105 919.966.3929 (phone) 919.962.0646 (fax) OTD site : http://www.research.unc.edu/otd Monthly Seminar Info: http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:05:28 -0500 From: "Dave Thompson" <thompsdc at mcmaster.ca> Subject: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler Well I've been lurking around the HBD for quite some time, and am finally preparing for my first all grain batch. I'm making a mash/lauter tun using a cooler and a copper pipe manifold. My question is this: I have a 48 qt rectangular cooler. I will be brewing ~5Gal batches. Is 48qt too big? Ie will the grain bed depth be too shallow? Most of my batches will have a relatively normal OG...so I guess that means I'll be using about 9 lbs of grain. If anyone has any experience lautering a 5 gallon batch in a 48qt rectangular cooler, any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Dave in Hamilton, Ontario. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 1/2/2004 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:13:36 -0500 From: NO Spam <nospam02 at brewbyyou.net> Subject: RE: freezer conversion There is a great article that was published in Zymurgy AGES ago for a wooden collar on a chest freezer. Here's a web page with one somebody built: http://www.buckbrewery.com/FreezerConversion.htm I seem to remember that the one in Zymurgy had a straight wooden front and the 2 sides were cut angular, so you just insert it between the freezer and the lid. It is not bolted, glued, screwed, etc. It just sort of sits there and the weight of the lid holds it. You then drill holes in the wood and slide your taps through that, rather than drill holes in the freezer itself. A web search not finding that article, though. hmmm... I know 2 guys who have made the setup from Zymurgy, and they both love it. Now, a word of caution - I've personally burned out 2 good chest freezers using a Johnson Control and running them at beer serving temp - above freezing. I've been told by more than one appliance guy that this is a very BAD idea. These freezers are not made to run constantly at temperatures above freezing. It is VERY hard on the compressors. And when you need a new compressor, that usually costs as much as buying a new chest freezer, if not more. Proceed at your own risk. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 03:37:45 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Cleaning Copper For cleaning copper try household ammonia. It's not a quick reaction but it does seem to clean off oxide after a good soak. If the ammonia turns a pretty blue you know the job is getting done. Think Brasso. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:19:26 -0600 From: "Steve Arnold" <vmi92 at cox-internet.com> Subject: kegs/excess foam Went to a restaurant this afternoon and ordered a Fat Tire. They said that their keg was too warm, and all the beer was coming out as foam so I would have to wait till the keg cooled down. What causes this? Is it simply that the warmer beer can't hold as much dissolved gas, so the beer is quickly degassing, or is there something else going on? Related point: I recently tried to siphon beer from a cold keg into cold bottles and had excess foam. I had already tried to dispense using just a pound or two of pressure, but my keg had a gas leak, so I couldn't maintain a steady pressure. So, I tried taking the lid off and siphoning directly into bottles. I could not get a clear siphon. It was almost all foam. Ended up having to quit because there was so much overflow. I am wondering if my problem might somehow be related to the problem that the restaurant was having. Any thoughts? -Steve (Arkansas Steve) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:59:40 -0500 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Black copper Brewsters: Fred Johnson is doing some chemistry and found that copper metal will produce a black deposit in caustic solution which is removable by hydrochloric acid. Copper metal is a funny beast as it is below hydrogen in the electrochemical series and is therefore not soluble in non-oxidizing acids. The copper oxides and hydroxides are soluble in these acids, however. If you have bare copper metal in a moist air environment it will oxidize to the oxide/hydroxide/carbonate patina so well noted on those beautiful copper metal based statues and roofs in Europe. Basically, the same thing goes on on your chiller surface. The copper is oxidized to a copper oxide derivative which is formed on the surface The dull appearing tannish brown oxide of copper is soluble in the organic acids of your beer and a very slight amount of copper ( as the oxide) is dissolved. The yeast love it as they need a very tiny amount for their metabolism. However, if this does not suit your sensibilities you can clean your chiller with white vinegar or very dilute muriatic acid followed by a rinse with sanitary water before using it with your beer. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:36:56 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: Combining yeasts Pat and Debbie ask, >I searched old posts, quickly, for anything on this subject and didn't come >up with much. That has a lot to do with the loss of Spencer's excellent search engine ... much missed. The topic has been covered but not recently. >I've found myself torn between 2 yeasts for a particular batch several times >and often considered what would be the result if I simply mixed the two. >I'd create a mammoth starter of each and then mix just prior to pitching. >What might I take into consideration before doing this? How similar must >the two yeast's flocculation, attenuation, temperature preference, etc. be? You can mix any two (or more) brewing yeasts, and except for the rare cases where the two co-flocculate more readily then either alone, or one has a killer yeast (K-factor) in it's hide which causes one to dominate you shouldn't have any difficulty obtaining a competent fermentation by mixing strains. The problem with mixed strain fermenting is that the results are NEVER reproducible and never can be. Any minor shift in the fermenting environment will cause a radical shift in the success of one strain over the other. The mismatches in growth are radically exaggerated if you ever repitch the combined yeasts. If you want to play with mixed strain fermenting to satisfy your curiosity, or to indulge your right brain artsy-craftsy nature or perhaps to purposely make an unreproducible beer then go for it. It won't cause any harm and will almost certainly make fine beer. If you want to make reproducible beer, or if you want to be able to learn from your fermentation experience then pure culture brewing is a must. If you want the flavor impact from two different strains then ferment split batch pure ferments and mix the resulting beers. This gives you the advantage of choosing the mixing ratio after the beer is finished. It will also dramatically show you the flavor of the two yeast on the same wort side-by-side. That comparative info is invaluable to a serious brewer. -Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 12:18:23 -0600 From: "The Mad Brewer" <seansgroups at mts.net> Subject: RE.: combing yeasts Pat Reddy asks about attenuation as a factor in combining yeasts. From what I understand of successful mixed strains, the trick is to combine two yeasts of strongly different characteristics. A fast-growing unattenuative yeast and a slower highly attenuative yeast can reach a steady state over a few batches. A similar phenomenon can operate between *Saccharomyces* and *Brettanomyces* in lambic brewing. The second yeast doesn't have to have a high population to survive and contribute dryness to the beer. Sean Richens Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:40:19 -0500 From: Scott McAfee <scmcafee at cox.net> Subject: Looking for guidance on welding After a particularly botched job on hiring a professional to weld a stainless steel NPT fitting to my new 100qt brew kettle, I've decided to take up welding as a new hobby. I've had some welds done on my SS pots in the past, and although they were ugly, they were serviceable with some grinding. With the latest job I guess I could've tried harder to find a TIG/stainless specialist, but settled on someone nearby. I should've been concerned when one of the staff looked at the finished weld and said, "that's a very tough job". It wasn't till I got home that I saw the two good size holes burned in the kettle wall about an inch from the fitting. After a second effort it looked like the holes were filled, but they were still there as pinholes. Rather than take it back a third time, I decided it was time for me to learn to weld. So I picked up some books at the library. Modern Welding is a super textbook, and I feel like I've learned enough to rent a welder and perhaps buy one if I'm not completely incompetent with the rental. I can't afford a TIG welder, so I'd love some advice on what kind of MIG welder to start with. Again, I don't mind ugly welds as long as they hold wort. I can grind and have some decent nitric acid on hand to fight corrosion. Cost is a big factor, and I'm willing to practice quite a bit to use something cheaper but perhaps not quite so user friendly. I figure most of my welding will be welding fittings to containers (pots, hoppers (fermenters), etc.), and maybe an aluminum frame for a tiered brew stand. It looks like the tough part of welding fittings is that you have a pretty thick walled fitting and a thin walled pot. From the textbook, it looks like there are three main types of welds with MIG: short circuit, globular transfer, and spray transfer. Short circuit looks like the best for thin walled metals using low current, but I'm guessing this doesn't work to well for a thicker walled fitting welded to a thin wall vessel. I don't really know, of course. So my two questions are: 1) what's the best transfer method for welding fittings to kettle walls, and 2) What are recommendations for relatively inexpensive MIG welders for the task. Thanks in advance, Scott scmcafee at cox.net P.S. Thanks to John Palmer for his many words of wisdom on this topic Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 03:29:35 -0500 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Black copper Brewsters: I hope this is not a repeat or, if so, the janitors catch it. Anymore, I just don't open even legitimate looking attachments to stuff like "your message was not delivered". - ----------------- Fred Johnson is doing some chemistry and found that copper metal will produce a black deposit in caustic solution which is removable by hydrochloric acid. Copper metal is a funny beast as it is below hydrogen in the electrochemical series and is therefore not soluble in non-oxidizing acids. The copper oxides and hydroxides are soluble in these acids, however. If you have bare copper metal in a moist air environment it will oxidize to the oxide/hydroxide/carbonate patina so well noted on those beautiful copper metal based statues and roofs in Europe. Basically, the same thing goes on on your chiller surface. The copper is oxidized to a copper oxide derivative which is formed on the surface The dull appearing tannish brown oxide of copper is soluble in the organic acids of your beer and a very slight amount of copper ( as the oxide) is dissolved. The yeast love it as they need a very tiny amount for their metabolism. However, if this does not suit your sensibilities you can clean your chiller with white vinegar or very dilute muriatic acid followed by a rinse with sanitary water before using it with your beer. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:30:55 -0500 From: "Christopher Clair" <buzz at netreach.net> Subject: 11th Annual BUZZ Off Home Brew Competition Brewers Unlimited Zany Zymurgists (BUZZ) is proud to announce that the 2004 BUZZ Off home brew competition will be held on Saturday, May 22nd at Iron Hill Brewery & Restaurant in West Chester, PA. For another year we will be a qualifying event for the prestigious Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB) as well as the Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year. All BJCP recognized styles including meads and ciders are eligible for entry. For complete details and forms, please visit the BUZZ web site at http://hbd.org/buzz. Entries will be accepted between April 26th and May 16th. For drop off and mail in locations please refer to the BUZZ web site. Please, do not send entries to Iron Hill. BJCP Judges and stewards will be needed. If you are interested please contact me or another committee member (contact information can be found on the web site). All judges must be BJCP certified. Good luck and cheers! Christopher Clair buzz at netreach.net http://hbd.org/buzz "The mouth of a perfectly happy man is filled with beer." - Ancient Egyptian Wisdom, 2200 B.C. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:04:17 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary (part1) Aaron Martin Linder tries his first barleywine ... > [...]barleywine [...] 5 gallons at 1.110 after pitching the starter. >The problem was that after 2 weeks I checked >the primary, and the gravity was 1.045!!! I've never had such > a poor result with White Labs Dry English Ale yeast! Don't blame the yeast - blame the yeast manager ! The ONLY reason to call this a *poor* result is your method of measuring is flawed. Consider the yeast cell's POV. A typical 5gal, 1.048SG wort has about 1600 grams of fermentables, this barleywine has around 3750 grams and the yeast have already fermented 2800 grams. They've fermented 1.75 times normal amount under terrific stresses. You should give those yeast a medal and fine burial - they did a tremendous amount of fermenting under very difficult conditions. Fact list: 1/ Yeast ferment sugar for energy. 2/ Yeast cell growth is the primary requirement for energy in normal brewery ferments. 3/ When yeast cease to grow they use far less energy (ferment slowly) and begin to flocculate. When fully dormant they use very little energy. 4/ Many factors can stop yeast growth - lack of oxygen products(lipids made with oxygen) and lack of amino acids top the list in common brewing conditions. 5/ Yeast have the capacity to incorporate their tiny oxygen requirement in lipid precursors, then share these among 3 or perhaps 4 generations in anaerobic conditions. When the lipids become too scarce growth stops (other conditions can prevent growth). 6/ High gravity fermentation causes several growth inhibitions for yeast a/ more wort soluble increases osmotic pressure which stress yeast. Imagine each molecule of solute beating the yeast cell surface like a hail storm. As solute molecules "accidentally" make it thru the cell membrane the yeast must "pump" them back out against the gradient. The cell membrane that prevents this ingress is primarily made of lipids (see 5/) which directly relate to the cell oxygen-lipid status. b/ CO2 in solution changes cell pH and ion transfer characteristics and the internal cell pH reduction reduces the rate at which cells obtain energy via cellular enzymatic processes. c/ Alcohol is a particularly pernicious since 1/2 mole of glucose, 1/4 mole of maltose or 1/6th mole of maltotriose each ferments to 1 mole of ethanol - doubling, quadrupling or sextupling the osmotic pressure component !. Ethanol is a good solvent and difficult to keep out of the cell (membranes more permeable to ethanol) In a normal ferment we aerate once then ferment anaerobically, effectively asking our yeast: "Hey guys - take a big gulp of oxygen, make lots of lipids, share these with your children, grandchildren, g-grandchildren and even some g-g-grandchildren. You aren't getting any more O2 or lipids till then. BTW guys, the more you ferment the more osmo-stress you'll have and the more lipids you'll *wish* you had - not gonna happen". For ale yeast we typically get an 8x or 10x increase in the yeast mass and cell count so we get 3 or 3.3 generation of yeast growth with no oxygen addition. Yeast ferment 20 grams of sugars for every 1gm of yeast dry mass growth (Balling eqn). A "normal" (5gal, 12P) batch w/ ~1600gm of fermentables requires the growth of 80 grams of yeast growth. If we expect 3 or 3.3 generations of yeast (8x or 10x growth) then we should pitch 8 or 10 grams of yeast [dry mass] of yeast. G.Fix and other sources suggest pitching around 1.5 Billion(10^9) cells per liter per degree Plato, so for 5gal at 12P we need: 1.5B cell * 19L * 12P = 342B cells. *Typical* dry cell mass is 20-40 picograms [10-^12gm ]. So the suggested rate is about 10.2 grams ! The same as we calculated above. For Aaron's barleywine w/ 3750gm of fermentables he must grow abt 190grams of yeast, but yeast will stop reproducing *before* they hit the third generation under the extreme stress conditions of a late barleywine ferment. There simply isn't enough lipids to split up 8 or 10 ways and still have viable cells given the environment. You need more than 19 grams of yeast to achieve 190gms of growth in a barleywine. Some brewing yeast are known to tolerate osmo-pressure better then others. It's likely that, like wine yeast, these varieties accumulate more lipids in the early phase. [These varieties may work better in underpitching situations for the same reason]. There is also a lot of baloney about alcohol intolerance in brewing yeast. Virtually any brewing yeast can tolerate 10% ABV and more *IF* they are given enough O2 or lipids. This is the basis of progressive feedings used for very high gravity. It's easier to progressively re-pitch well aerated yeast than to add to gravity slowly. > I am planning on making a starter with some "Red > Star Champagne" yeast, dry, to pitch into the secondary. Yes, repitching is necessary, it's time to send in a fresh second team. For a barleywine you should expect this to happen. >do the serious brewers amongst you use an oxygen [...] or just shake [..] like I do for a 1.036-1.085 gravity[...]. Around 1.032-1.065 SG you can use normal fermentation practice. Scaling pitching rate up with gravity is sufficient. I wouldn't reuse a yeast cake from the high end of that range, but it would probably work. Beyond 1.065 you are asking for a *LOT* of performance from your yeast. Choosing the right yeast and the right pitching levels and providing enough oxygen to the yeast is critical. We'll leave other factors till another day. I have pure oxygen but rarely use it for brewing ! I actively aerate starters w/ a stir plate and I aerate wort with air. In the case of a barleywine you need more O2 and the wort holds a bit less. Pure O2 would help, but it's probably *more* effective to aerate the wort every few hours for the first 12hrs after pitching. You can get as much oxygen into solution with 2 air aerations as one pure O2 aeration. You can re-aerate pitched wort safely until about the time you see the first CO2 bubbles ... up to 24 hours according to Fix. At some point aeration will create nasty flavors from fermentation by-products and seriously damage flavor. NEVER aerate half fermented wort/beer. Shaking a carboy works but it takes time and a lot of shaking. A cheap aquarium pump, a sub-micron inline air filter and a well sanitized aeration stone (doesn't have to be cintered stainless) do a better job for ~$25.. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 11:02:54 -0600 From: Ralph Link <ralphl at shaw.ca> Subject: local micros I will be in the phoenix Mesa area late March. Can anyone suggest best of the local watering holes (Micro Brewery) Private email is fine. Thanks for the help Ralph Link Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:40:37 -0500 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: re: oxygen/champagne yeast secondary/"McDonald's effect" (part 2) (continued) >My second question is this: >Is it wise to pitch the champagne yeast to secondary, AND did my gravity >go down due to the clarification of the beer or the reduction of >sugar-content? (i.e. does gravity change significantly due to "stuff" >other than sugar settling out of the wort?) Gravity reading is affected by particulate in suspension, but the biggest variable in late gravity readings is the CO2 bubbles clinging to the hydrometer. If you measured to avoid the CO2 error, then the 5 degree drop is likely due to slow fermentation. Re-pitching is necessary. Champagne yeast (S.bayanus) is an ancestor of lager yeast, great cold and stress tolerance, gives a clean neutral flavor. If you had planned in advance you might have created a second starter of your ale yeast and which would have preserved it's flavor character moreso. For these re-pitchings I have some very strong advise: ALWAYS create a very well aerated small starter for repitching. The growth limiting factor in high-grav brewing is often lipids from oxygen and there is no acceptable way to introduce oxygen or lipids into the half-fermented beer. You must re-pitch yeast from an O2- lipid rich environment. Most dry yeast and RTP yeast vendors claim their yeast are already rich in lipids. My *hunch* is that this claim is quite true for dry yeasts and somewhat doubtful for live-culture RTPs. I'd like to see a lipid assay of a Lallemand dry pack vs a WhiteLabs "wet" RTP. Aaron has roughly another 1000gm of sugar to ferment, or 50gms of yeast to grow so he'll almost certainly need more than 5 grams dry re-pitch yeast to finish this barleywine. Considering osmo and alcohol stress (and other factors not discussed here) the late pitching is unlikely to achieve 10x growth. >My last question is this: >I've noticed that my barleywine has a very pleasant apricot-like taste. > [...] In mashing the brew I used a 10 gallon Igloo "McDonald's" >**snicker** cooler that I found on the side of the road. It had a >distinct smell of "[...] >[... due to container or yeast ?...] Aaron, it's possible to be too frugal ! Economic consideration should inform you that goods are usually discarded when they are unfit for their intended purpose (a food container in this case). Heed that consideration ! TSP is an exquisite cleaner, but plastics retain flavors and odors the way Aaron holds onto nickels. Mashing is likely to bring some of these flavors out. Also hi-grav beers always have higher absolute and relative levels of fusels and esters than their low grav counterparts. I posted on this a few weeks back. This makes hi-grav brewing a particular challenge. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 12:44:49 -0800 From: David <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com> Subject: kegging Dear HBDrs, I'm new to kegging and am curious about a few things. I know if I set the regulator on my CO2 to the recommended pressure, in about 2 days I will have my beer carbonated without rocking. I've done that and I've also set the gas to the out port and rocked it to infuse quickly and all is just fine. But what I would like to know is can I bump up the pressure to a point and carbonate in a much shorter time?-still without rocking. Say a few hours? Cornies can take high pressures can't they? Is there a chart I can refer to? Also, when I was bottling I'd keep the bottles at 65 or so for up to 2 weeks to condition but since I'm now kegging it stays much cooler right out of the secondary. Is this affecting aging or maturing by slowing down the process? Thanks, David Brandt Cloverdale, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:39 -0500 From: "Kerry Drake" <kerry.drake at cox.net> Subject: RE: Make it more bitter Dave relents about his too sweet ESB: >Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:46:38 -0500 >From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com> >Subject: Make it more Bitter? >OK, I screwed up. I added too much 60L Crystal and Special B to what was supposed to be an ESB. It's kegged in a >Corny keg, and it's probably OK, but I'd like it a lot more bitter. How about boiling an ounce of hops in plain >water for a while, and add it to the keg? >I did a Rager calculation, for an ounce of 15% AA Magnum hops, boiled for 18 minutes in SG = 1.000, I should be able >to get 20 IBU. It might even add significant hop flavor. Am I dreaming, or do you think this might actually work? A few months ago I had a batch of pale ale that, although not too sweet, needed more bitterness and hop flavor. I did exactly what you are contemplating, making a hop tea, that is. I boiled about an ounce of cascade for 45 minutes in two quarts of water, let it cool and added it to the keg. It was less than a quart after 45 minutes of boiling. Initially, the hop flavor was over whelming. With time it mellowed and was great. Kerry Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:42:57 +1000 From: "John Kennedy" <johnk at readybake.com.au> Subject: Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:12:29 -0500 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: acetone in weizen I brewed up 10 gallons of wheat beer about a month ago. 5 gallons went right into a corny after primary fermentation and 5 stayed in my MiniBrew fermenter for a few more weeks. Fermented with WhiteLabs WLP380 (Hefeweizen IV). Hi Marc, I too have had the same problem from the Hefeweizen IV, it makes mouth wash out of good beer. I think the yeast has to much wild yeast in it, witch takes over. John K Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:22:54 -0800 From: "Jamil Zainasheff" <jamilz at citlink.net> Subject: NHC First Round - CA Region, Judges and Stewards Needed American Homebrewers Association First Round National Homebrew Competition California Region 2004 It is nearly time to judge the first round of the 26th Annual National Homebrew Competition once again. We need your help as judges and stewards to ensure a high quality competition. This year the first round judging duties are being shared between two locations, one in Canoga Park, CA and the other in San Diego, CA. You are welcome to judge at either location, whichever is most convenient for you. If you are interested in judging or stewarding in SAN DIEGO, please register online at http://www.brewingcompetition.com If you are interested in judging or stewarding in CANOGA PARK, please register online at http://www.maltosefalcons.com - -------------------------------------------------- SAN DIEGO, CA: - -------------------------------------------------- When: Judging starts Friday April 23 at 7:00 pm and Saturday April 24th at 10:00 am. Please arrive at least 30 minutes early to check in, have a bite to eat, and chat with your fellow judges. Where: St. Dunstan's Episcopal Church 6556 Park Ridge Blvd. San Diego, CA 92120 Register: http://www.brewingcompetition.com You'll also find directions to St. Dunstan's on the web site. Peter Zien, Judge Coordinator pz at alesmith.com Jamil Zainasheff, Technical Support jamilz at citlink.net - -------------------------------------------------- CANOGA PARK, CA: - -------------------------------------------------- When: Judging Saturday April 24th at 9:00 am. Please make certain you arrive on time to ensure a prompt start. Where: St Martins 7136 Winnetka Canoga Park, CA Register: http://www.maltosefalcons.com/ Martin Carman, Judge Coordinator carman1 at attglobal.net Return to table of contents
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