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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Make it more bitter ("Dave and Joan King")
  Medicine Taste/Chlorophenols - Masking ("Robert Bucinskas")
  Digest reconfigured... (Pat Babcock)
  Link of the week - Master Brewers Association (Bob Devine)
  Welding...Yeast K Factor ("Mike Sharp")
  Mixed Yeast  Strains ("Dave Burley")
  Search Engine ("Davison, Patrick")
  Re: Bourbon Barrel Club Project ("Rob Dewhirst")
  re: club project (Joe Yoder)
  Welders and S.S. (Inland-Gaylord)" <BrianSmith1@templeinland.com>
  Re: acetone odor ("Fredrik")
  Re: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler (CONN Denny G)
  Re: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler (Kent Fletcher)
  Dip Tubes ("Nick Nikiforov")
  BABBLE Leap Beer Brew Off Results (val.dan.morey)
  beer clarifying (Stan Gammons)
  Re: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler ("Dave and Joan King")
  Re: kegs/excess foam ("Dave and Joan King")
  Re: Grain Bed Depth In Cooler ("Ross Potter")


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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:37:49 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Make it more bitter

Thanks Kerry.  Marc Sedam sent me a note along the same lines, and added
that we should include a few drops of lemon juice to acidify the hop tea.
I'm going to try it next weekend.

The reason for the wait is that I dry hopped the keg, and that'll make 4
weeks, time to pull the bag of hops out.  I can easily add the hop tea while
the keg is open then.  I found an "earthy" flavor seemed to develop if I
left the hops in for a few months (until the keg died).  Since I've started
pulling them out in 3 or 4 weeks, I haven't noticed that any more.

Dave King, BIER

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry Drake" <kerry.drake at cox.net>
To: <post at hbd.org>
Cc: <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: Make it more bitter


> Dave relents about his too sweet ESB:
>
> >Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:46:38 -0500
> >From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
> >Subject: Make it more Bitter?
>
> >OK, I screwed up.  I added too much 60L Crystal and Special B to what was
> supposed to be an ESB.  It's kegged in a >Corny keg, and it's probably OK,
> but I'd like it a lot more bitter.  How about boiling an ounce of hops in
> plain >water for a while, and add it to the keg?
>
> >I did a Rager calculation, for an ounce of 15% AA Magnum hops, boiled for
> 18 minutes in SG = 1.000, I should be able >to get 20 IBU.  It might even
> add significant hop flavor.  Am I dreaming, or do you think this might
> actually work?
>
> A few months ago I had a batch of pale ale that, although not too sweet,
> needed more bitterness and hop flavor.  I did exactly what you are
> contemplating, making a hop tea, that is.  I boiled about an ounce of
> cascade for 45 minutes in two quarts of water, let it cool and added it to
> the keg.  It was less than a quart after 45 minutes of boiling.
Initially,
> the hop flavor was over whelming.  With time it mellowed and was great.
>
> Kerry
>
>



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Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:33:38 +1100
From: "Robert Bucinskas" <Robert.Bucinskas at oir.commerce.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Medicine Taste/Chlorophenols - Masking

I've just brewed my first "big" beer, which started at 1.098 and finished at
1.022.  It's a small volume brew (15 litres) made up mostly of DME but also
Cane Sugar, golden syrup (liquid invert sugar) and some specialty grains.  It
was fermented out with WLP500 at a reasonably warm (high 20's C) temp.

This beast is now sitting in secondary and tastes a lot like medicine.  I 
suspect the cause is chlorine in the tap water, as there was a fair amount of 
rain in my catchment before brew day and I suspect the Water Supply upped the
chlorine to kill off the bugs from the usual stuff like road kill, dead wombats
etc that find their way into the reservoir in a big storm.  I sanitised with
bleach but took great pains to rinse the carboy well with hot tap water and 
followed up with methylated spirits, more tap water, then a dose of iodophor 
and yet more tap water... maybe overkill, but the fermenter had been fallow for
a while.

Anyway, the taste is reasonably strong but not overwhelming.  I was thinking of
masking the taste somehow by racking the beer into another miniwort and letting
it ferment out.  The idea was to put together say 5 litres of wort with a big 
pile of dark roasted malt and choc malt and bitter it with a sizeable chunk of
perle hops.  Hopefully this ridiculously bitter and roasty concoction will
overwhelm the phenolic taste... or am I just sending good grain after bad?




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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:40:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Digest reconfigured...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to you chronograph...

I've reconfigured the Digest to mail out prior to my normal
snooze time. With the nu,ber of spam, worms and viruses bouncing
off of the posting adress these days, this step should help keep
the garbage out of the Digest by not leaving the gates unguarded
prior to publication as often.

Lemme know how it works out for you...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:11:46 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Link of the week - Master Brewers Association

An interesting comparison for HBD readers is to look at the
topics discussed at the Master Brewers Assn. website:
http://www.mbaa.com/

Bob Devine
Santa Fe, NM


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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:30:05 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Welding...Yeast K Factor

Scott McAfee looks for guidance on welding...

If TIG is out of the question, you might consider silver-brazing, as long as
there's a pretty decent area of contact.  I've had particularly good luck
with this, and even found I could readily braze stainless sanitary ferrules
to the inside of copper tubing.  I ran thousands of feet of 2 1/8 inch ACR
copper refrigeration tubing around a facility using sanitary ferrules for
valve connections.

Machining the end of a coupling flat, and brazing it to a thin stainless
wall shouldn't be all that hard.  I like the high silver content brazing
rod/wire.  It's been a while since I've done it, but it seemed to me like
the stuff with a small amount of phosphorus worked really well.

Steve mentioned killer yeasts...I've always been curious about this.  What
is different about a killer yeast, and is it effective against, say wild
yeasts? Are they effective against other spoilage organisms?

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:54:49 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Mixed Yeast  Strains

Brewsters:

Steve A's point that mixed yeast strains will give varying results is likely
correct, but the fact is most historical beers were always brewed with mixed
strains and it wasn't until the early 20th century that single strains were
used widely in the industry. I doubt that historically expectations for a
standardized product were the same.  With our ability to control temperatures
and such being much better than in the past we should be able to overcome wide
variations.

Dornbusch makes the point that ancient German beers were likely ales in the
summer and lagers in the winter as the storage and brewing temperatures
changed with the weather.

London Ales were made up from  two or more strains, some of which were
flocculating and some were powdery. Things and expectations were different in
those days. A small amount of powdery yeast did two things  - it helped finish
off the fermentation and provided a source of yeast during the carbonation of
the keg.

I think mixed yeast blends will provide a new avenue for amateur
experimentation and has the potential to provide a more complex beer.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:59:07 -0500 
From: "Davison, Patrick" <Davison at nsf.org>
Subject: Search Engine

In HBD #4493, -S, responding to Pat and Debbie's failed efforts to search
the HBD archives, laments, "That has a lot to do with the loss of Spencer's
excellent search engine ... much missed."

I have successfully used a feature in Google.com to search the HBD archives.
At the Google.com opening screen, click on the "Advanced Search" link.  In
the top four text boxes, write in your search requirements.  Then, about
halfway down the screen, under the heading "Domain," type in 'hbd.org' in
the appropriate box and hit 'Search.'  The search will return HBD pages with
the requirements you specified.

I have no affiliation with google.com; other search engines likely have this
feature.  

Good luck,

Pat Davison
Ferndale, Michigan




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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:42:42 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Bourbon Barrel Club Project

Our brewclub did a similar project last year.  I did not coordinate it, but
this is from memory.

> If the barrel is still wet inside, could it be considered
> sanitary?

Not sanitary, but good enough for your purposes.

> If we keep it topped up and sealed from the atmosphere, is
> it reasonable to assume that oxidation will be kept to a
> minimum?

yes.

> What about putting some kind of sealer on the
> exterior of the barrel?

probably wouldn't accomplish much.

> Would the filled barrel hold a few
> psi of CO2 pressure without quickly emptying the bottle?

We drained at least one 5lb co2 tank trying to push beer from ours.  They
are hard to seal.  Tapping for a spigot would be a better idea.

> Any alternative suggestions to the plumbing plan?

I would build a good-sealing bung from hardwood and seal an inlet and
racking port in the top.

Also, I would expect your "perpetual" beer will eventually turn undrinkable.
Once the alcohol level in the liquid is thoroughly diluted and the barrel
has had plenty of time to harbor lots of bacteria, you might end up ruining
any beer you put in it.  The shelf life of our bourbon barrel (stout, not
barleywine) was about 4 mos.



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Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 09:01:12 -0600
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: re: club project

Steve Jones' writes about his brew clubs project:

> 12 of us are going to brew 5 gallons each of a barleywine,
> each using our own recipe. We will each ferment in our own
> primaries, then rack to secondaries for a month or so. Our
> only criteria is that it needs to fall roughly within the
> OG and IBU guidelines for the style.

Steve, the Lawrence Brewers Guild (Lawrence, KS) had a similar project 
last year.  We used a foreign style stout and left it in the barrel for 
a couple of months.  It became very bourbonny.  I think that after you 
remove the first five gallons you may reconsider leaving the beer in the 
barrel much longer.  As far as sanitizing the barrel, I doubt that you 
can ever be secure about sanitation.  We just poured the beer in on the 
leftover bourbon (probably about a pint or so was still left in the 
barrel).  I don't think that there were any infection off flavors, 
though judges in a competition noted a solventy aftertaste.  The CO2 
method of filling kegs is exactly how we filled ours, it worked but it 
did take a bunch of CO2 until we got everything sealed properly.

This year we are talking about filling a smaller new barrel with an IPA.

Good luck, sounds like fun!
Joe Yoder
Lawrence, KS



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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:49:43 -0600
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BrianSmith1 at templeinland.com>
Subject: Welders and S.S.

Scott,

While I have never tried weld stainless, I do quite a bit of welding on my
other hobby (restoring British Sports cars).  I have the Lincoln 110v mig
welder (Weld-Pak 110 I think).  I know you can weld Stainless with it with
the proper wire and gas (pure argon, I think).  I bought this welder because
of the wide control of both voltage and wire speed.  I can tell you it is
easy to "blow holes" in thinning metal, but it can be done.  Thanks my
recommendation.  I also considered the "Miller" version of this welder, but
I chose the Lincoln because I could buy it at Lowe's/Home depot.

Brian

Brian Smith
Big Ring Brewery
Bogalusa, LA

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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:56:33 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: acetone odor


> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:49:23 -0500
> From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
> Subject: acetone odor

> Much like Zemo, I spent enough time in a chemistry lab to know the smell
> of acetone.  Well, I mean, it *could* be something else but it really
> does smell like nail polish remover.  I've had some Belgian trippels
> take on the same odor which will mellow over time...just never had it
> with a wheat yeast before.  Oh well.  To the keg it goes, how it will
> taste nobody knows.
>

Hello Marc,

Maybe you've seen the excellent biocyc pages but FWIW, I don't know how
likely this bacteria is to occur in brewing, or in as contaminants in
brewing yeast but check the nice sites below for one possibly pathway to
acetone.

Bacteria: Clostridium acetobutylicum
featured pathway: pyruvate -> acetyl-CoA -> acetoacetyl-CoA ->
acetoacetate -> acetone + CO2

http://biocyc.org:1555/META/new-image?type=PATHWAY&object=CENTFERM-PWY&detai
l-level=1
http://www.accessexcellence.org/LC/SS/ferm_graphics/process.html

 /Fredrik


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:43:11 -0800 
From: CONN Denny G <denny.g.conn at ci.eugene.or.us>
Subject: Re: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler

Dave, I can tell you that if you batch sparge, grain bed depth makes no
difference at all.  You might consider that method if you have concerns.

	------------>Denny Conn


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:55:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler

Dave was a little concerned about having a relatively
shallow grain bed depth in his newly made 48 quart
rectangualr cooler mash/lauter tun.

Dave, I made mine with a 56 quart high insulation
cooler, cause that's the one I already had.  I've made
batches varying from 5 gallons to 22 (a Mild, with a
28 pound grain bill) in it, my efficiency is
consistently in the high seventies, the shallow bed on
the 5 gallon batches doesn't seemed to have hurt.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



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Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:46:55 -0500
From: "Nick Nikiforov" <NNikifor at dos.state.ny.us>
Subject: Dip Tubes

I am a bit behind in my HB reading but wanted to comment on the dip tube
thread.
I cut an inch off using a pipe cutter. The inside of the tube where I
cut
it pushed in just enough so that when I pour a beer I get an initial
shot of foam. 
Instahead. 

BTW, by cutting the tube I don't get the  glass of yeast on the last
pint or
two of the keg. IMO, there is nothing more depressing than having the
last
glass pulled be undrinkable. It sort of ruins the  "moment of silence" 
ritual for a dead keg.

As far as getting the last of the sanitizer out. I turn the keg upside
down and let it drip dry.
I flush with CO2 before filling. I have had beer age in such a treated
keg for 6 months.
It tasted great. Until I run into trouble I will not spend the time to
do anything extra.

Nick
Albany, NY


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:34:26 -0600
From: val.dan.morey at juno.com
Subject: BABBLE Leap Beer Brew Off Results

BABBLE is pleased to announce the winners of the first BABBLE Leap Beer
Brew Off.  119 entries from 36 different brewers were judged at The Onion
Pub and Brewery.

BOS winners are:

1st   George Krafcisin for his robust porter
2nd  Scott Prutton with his Belgian pale ale
3rd  Michael Pelter for his Russian Imperial Stout

For a complete list of winners see:

http://hbd.org/babble/Leap_Beer_Winners_2004.html

For a complete list of sponsors visit:

http://hbd.org/babble/prizes_and_sponsors.htm

We would like to thank everyone who participated (entrants, judges,
stewards, and staff).  We also are grateful for our sponsors who helped
make the vent special.  Please support those who support the homebrew
hobby.

Score sheets and prizes should be in the mail soon.

Cheers,
Dan Morey
Club BABBLE  http://hbd.org/babble/


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Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 18:07:04 -0600
From: Stan Gammons <s_gammons at charter.net>
Subject: beer clarifying

I was wondering about clarifying beer, especially styles like IPA or
lighter colored "yellow" beers.

I recently made an all grain IPA that turned out pretty well other than
being rather cloudy.  I thought about using Isinglass to help clarify
it, but I've never used it before and I wanted to see how it turned out
without any sort of clarifying or filtering.  Anyone here having any
advice on how to use Isinglass?  What point would you recommend using
it?  The method I normally use it to let the beer ferment out in one
carboy and transfer to a second carboy then let it sit at least 5 days
before I keg it.

Does anyone use a filter to clarify their beer?  If so what kind?  I
have a corny keg system so a filter that is used in conjunction with
those isn't a problem.

Thanks in advance.





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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:26:17 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler

Dave asks;
- ------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:05:28 -0500
From: "Dave Thompson" <thompsdc at mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler

Well I've been lurking around the HBD for quite some time, and am
finally preparing for my first all grain batch.  I'm making a
mash/lauter tun using a cooler and a copper pipe manifold.  My question
is this:  I have a 48 qt rectangular cooler.  I will be brewing ~5Gal
batches.  Is 48qt too big?  Ie will the grain bed depth be too shallow?
Most of my batches will have a relatively normal OG...so I guess that
means I'll be using about 9 lbs of grain.  If anyone has any experience
lautering a 5 gallon batch in a 48qt rectangular cooler, any feedback
would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Dave in Hamilton, Ontario.
- ------------------------------------------
I've been using a 48 qt rectangular cooler with a Cu pipe manifold as a mash
tun for several years, and have fine success.  You do need to be sure the
grain bed is reasonably level.  I have had a couple batches where the grain
got piled up on one end, and the extraction I got was poor (60 some%).  I
normally get around 75% theoretical grain extraction, which I don't think is
too bad.  My grain bill is normally around 12 to 14 lb, to get OG of around
1.055 to 1.070.

   Dave King (BIER)  [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:50:09 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: kegs/excess foam

Steve asks;
- --------------------------------
    Went to a restaurant this afternoon and ordered a Fat Tire.  They said
that their keg was too warm, and all the beer was coming out as foam so I
would have to wait till the keg cooled down.  What causes this?  Is it
simply
that the warmer beer can't hold as much dissolved gas, so the beer is
quickly
degassing, or is there something else going on?
    Related point:  I recently tried to siphon beer from a cold keg into
cold
bottles and had excess foam.  I had already tried to dispense using just a
pound or two of pressure, but my keg had a gas leak, so I couldn't maintain
a
steady pressure.  So, I tried taking the lid off and siphoning directly into
bottles.  I could not get a clear siphon.  It was almost all foam.  Ended up
having to quit because there was so much overflow.  I am wondering if my
problem might somehow be related to the problem that the restaurant was
having.  Any thoughts?

 -Steve (Arkansas Steve)
___________________

Here're my thoughts.  The science is right, the numbers are mine, so they're
just opinion.

The problem is that the colder the beer, the more CO2 it'll hold at a low
pressure.  If you warm it up, you need more pressure to hold the CO2 in
solution, but when you open the spigot, it pushes out so vigorously, the
activity is like shaking a bottle, the CO2 comes out, doing a lot of
foaming.  If you cool the keg down to about 30 degrees and keep about 7 psi
on it, you'll get a slow flow, and not a lot of foaming.  At 1 atmosphere,
the gas wants to come out, but if the beer's still relatively cold, and you
don't thrash it around a lot, the CO2 will only come out slowly.

If you want to fill bottles from a keg, the best thing to do is get a
counter pressure bottle filler (CPBF), that'll balance the pressure, keeping
the beer under nearly the same pressure as in the keg while quietly
dispensing.  The lower the temperature, the easier this is.  If you don't
mind low CO2 levels, just go for it, skip the expensive CPBF, and have the
capper ready.  Do this in a pan, and drink your spills.  Adds to the
pleasure.  :-)

For normal dispensing into a glass, you need to keep the keg at around 35 to
40F, and about 10 psi.  If you want more carbonation left in the beer, you
can use a longer hose on the outlet (I use about 10 feet).  This allows a
gradual pressure drop when you open the tap.  You have to experiment to find
the right values for your setup.  You can use lower temperatures, but
anything below about 40F tends to kill the flavor.

I often take beer in a soda bottle to club meetings, and use a "carbonator"
cap.  I fill the bottle about 3/4 of the way with a piece of siphon cane
crammed into the dispensing spigot.  That way I can more "quietly" get the
beer into the bottle, minimizing foaming.  I sit the bottle in a pan, and
it'll overflow the bottle with a little foam.  I quickly get the lid on,
rinse it off, and then top this off with about 20 psi on the carbonator.
This works fine.

Dave King (BIER)  [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:49:22 -0800
From: "Ross Potter" <BurningBrite at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Grain Bed Depth In Cooler

>>In response to Dave Thompson's question about
>>"Grain bed depth in a 48qt rectangular cooler":

Dave, I have used exactly that system for my lauter tun for about two years
now and it works marvelously well.  In fact I just did an Irish red ale this
weekend, 9 lbs of grain and 6.5 gallons (preboil) of wort, and had no
problems with bed depth, runoff, etc.  I batch sparge (usually two sparges),
use between 1.25 and 1.5 quarts per pound for most mash-ins, and get very
reasonable efficiencies (>75%).  I have done a barley wine and imperial
stout with pretty high gravities too, and the cooler had sufficient capacity
(with some work and quadruple sparges) to handle it.

The only problem I run into consistently is being able to add enough hot
water to bring the temperature from lower saccharification ranges (~150
degrees) to mash-out temperatures (~170 degrees) without exceeding the
cooler's capacity.  Whenever I feel denaturing the little enzies is
important enough for the beer to turn out right, I will add a partial
decoction step prior to the first runoff.  Boiling and returning several
quarts to the tun helps ensure it hits mash-out range.  This partial
decoction also helps with setting the grain bed (as long as I am careful
about pouring the reheated liquor back into the tun).  Precise timing and
+/- 0.1 degree adjustments aren't feasible for me with this setup, but hey
- -- relax, don't worry...

 ...Ross Potter
Richland, WA



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---