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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: The Yeast That Ate Ann Arbor ("Beer Man")
  Re: health beer recipes/techniques? ("Joe & Kirsten Woyte")
  re: hop tea ("Darth Marley")
  brew texts (darrell.leavitt)
  Health Beer (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Brewing Texts ("A.J deLange")
  Diacetyl ("steve lane")
  re: health beer recipes/techniques? (Matt Comstock)
  burner stand question (Marc Sedam)
  Wyeast Roselaere blend (Marc Sedam)
  Carbonate precipitation ("Brian Lundeen")
  hard cider recipe (Marc Sedam)
  Nutritional Beers ("Dave Burley")
  Berliner Weisse (Robert Sandefer)
  Re: Advanced Brewing Texts ("Doug Hurst")
  Pets with beer-related names (stihlerunits)


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:35:28 -0600
From: "Beer Man" <beer.man at cox.net>
Subject: Re: The Yeast That Ate Ann Arbor

In response to Don Scholl's question about other people's experience with
White Labs yeast, I brewed a Tripel Saturday morning and pitched my yeast
starter about 7:00 that night. At roughly 3 a.m., I happened to be up and
heard a strange noise, so turned on the kitchen light and what did I see? My
air lock was gushing foam and by the look was about to become a slow moving
projectile. I removed the air lock and it was like a miniature old faithful
in slow motion. The foam was constantly pouring out of the rubber bung on
the top of my carboy. I capped it with an inverted plastic pitcher to
prevent anything from falling in, but the gushing continued until about 5:00
or so Sunday Night. Man, I don't know what kinda steroids that yeast was on,
but it was full on. I've never had yeast take off like that. I mean, I've
had yeast show signs of ferment by a few hours later, but damn, never a full
krausen by 6 hrs later. Much less the level of activity.

White Labs needs to keep doing whatever they're doing if this is typical.

Btw, I just tried my first lager with the equipment I've got at home (wine
refrigerator) and I was curious about the sulfur taste (Yeast was white labs
san francisco lager). Is that normal for a lager at the end of primary? How
long does it take to tone down to normal levels? The beer is a California
Common and I'm not sure how to approach the lagering phase, and if it's any
different for this particular style.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Byron Towles
Crescent City Homebrewers
http://hbd.org/crescent




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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:14:05 -0600
From: "Joe & Kirsten Woyte" <woyte4 at cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: health beer recipes/techniques?

  (Jon O asks about creating healthy beers)
  Jon,
     I highly recommend 2 books to you:
  "Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers" (Brunner) to explore the idea of beers
made with various healthful ingredients, and
  "Eating Well for Optimum Health" (Weil) to develop your understanding of
heathy foods in general.
    Note that the second makes little mention of alcohol, and the first
maintains an almost defiant disregard for the importance of yeast strains,
focusing instead on ingredients, traditions, history, and many, many
interesting recipes, most sized to experimental 1 gallon batches (perfect
for a glass cider jug).  There are simply too many great ideas to list here.
    As to your question about yeast strains, well, it's a judgement call,
but in my own experimentation I've noted the following generalizations (your
results may vary):
   - Ale yeast is user-friendly for those who ferment at room temp (spare
bathtub is a great spot)
   - Lager yeast may be preferable if your focus is on the ingredients/herbs
   - An alternative to the opposing statements above is a California "steam"
lager yeast
   - Wine yeast or cider yeast is a must for hard ciders that taste like
anything other than yeast
   - Nothing beats a mead yeast for a mead
     Some other lessons I've learned first-hand:
   - When using strongly flavored herbs like yarrow, err on the cautious
side
   - Steep, don't boil, fruit additions or juices
   - The main ingredient in both braggot and lambic and is patience
   - The only way to truly know the effect of an herb or adjunct is to make
a control batch without it
   - Experiment with adjuncts in the fermentor, but prime with corn sugar or
dme for safety's sake
    Finally, re: your question about unfermentables and indigestibles --
these are not synonyms.  Just because s. cerevisiae can't digest it doesn't
mean the various critters in your gut won't break it down for you.
  Prosit!
  -Joe
  Dry County Brewery
  Tyler, TX






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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:16:18 -0600
From: "Darth Marley" <darthmarley at comcast.net>
Subject: re: hop tea

One issue I have read about with doing a hop tea that argues against it is,
that you are adding hop phenols to the beer without removing them in a hot
or cold break.

This could create chill haze problems.



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:00:11 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: brew texts

perhaps a bit less technical, but good none the less is the Fix's ANALYSIS 
OF BREWING TECHNIQUE...

 ..Darrell




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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:20:50 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Health Beer

JonO in Minny said:
> I'd be interested in recipes and techniques to create beer with higher 
> nutritional qualities.
That can get really interesting, depending on how it's done. After all, 
health food stores are already an important source of ingredients for 
some of us: flaked grain, cool sugars, herbs...

But we should probably define what we want in terms of beer nutrition 
and then look at ingredients and techniques to achieve it.
There's the whole "saving the village by brewing beer" principle. 
Beer's safer than water (because of boiling, pH, and alcohol) and we 
all heard the legends of beer hagiography, with an Arnold (Arnould) or 
two in France and Belgium. But nowadays, soft-drinks are probably very 
safe in general...

Among the common dietary/nutritional parameters in beer, there's at 
least carbohydrates, proteins, B-complex vitamins, and of course water. 
These are all pretty well-known and some are fairly easy to control. 
What about FAN? They're used by yeast but can't we use them too? Iron? 
Calcium? Fat???
For one thing, trub might be the part of beer with the most nutritional 
qualities, right? A very yeasty bottle-conditioned beer might already 
be "healthier" than other beers...

There's also the whole other part, with herbs and such. Apparently, 
even hops have a calming effect and may help insomniacs. Most of the 
herbs used in gruit also have some effect that we may or may not want 
to get. Here's a good page describing different herbs to use in beer, 
with their use and effects:
<http://www.calferm.org/edu/misc/botanicals.htm>

Although, there's probably a danger of associating "health freak 
ingredients" with healthiness. The health benefits of a single 
ingredient matter very little in comparison to a whole diet...
And there are technical difficulties. For instance, flax doesn't seem 
to be a very good ingredient for beer despite its alleged dietary 
qualities. Someone out there has made soy beer. That might be really 
interesting although head formation is probably out of the question.

But this can all lead to interesting experiments. Are there 
nutritionists in the room?

Ale-X in Moncton, New Brunswick (Canada)



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:55:57 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Brewing Texts

For Chuck Brandt: Of the three texts listed the latter two (DeClerk and 
Hough et al) are, IMO absolutely essential. They sit on a shelf right 
over my computer so I don't even have to get out of my chair to get to 
them and get to them frequently I do. Right between them is "Handbook 
of Brewing" edited by Hardwick (publisher Marcel Dekker) and I refer to 
that fairly frequently as well. Most useful is Manfred Moll's chapter 
on water as the other two are a little thin on that subject.

The MBAA text is definitely for the commercial brewer - thin on theory 
and thick on practice at a scale that home brewers don't deal with 
typically (three phase electrical power, for example). A similar text 
is "Technology Brewing and Malting" by Kunze but the emphasis is on 
European practices. Abriss der Bier Brauerei by Narziss is more 
theoretical but totally lacking in illustrations, graphs etc (and you 
have to be able to read technical German).

A.J.



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:02:46 -0600
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: Diacetyl

Interesting article in the Missouri papers yesterday.  A jury in Joplin, MO 
awarded a man and his wife $20 million in damages for a product that has 
ruined the mans lungs.  He now needs a double lung transplant after working 
in a microwave popcorn factory for a few years.  He worked in the mixing 
room where they "concoct" the greasy tasty stuff that is injected into the 
packaging to give it the buttery flavor that we've all come to love on our 
popcorn.  Seems that the guilty substance was diacetyl as one of the 
flavorings that was added to the popcorn concontion.
The article mentioned that this is a naturally occuring chemical in many 
food products including cheese and beer.  One more reason to sit back and 
enjoy your buttery brew and not just sit down and "inhale" your pint.
My prayers go out the Ford family.  I had the pleasure to be in the KC 
B-meisters with Steve Ford and he will be truly missed by all who's life he 
touch.  Rest In Peace Steve.  We'll raise a toast to you in your memory.

Stephen Lane
Kansas City, MO



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:47:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: health beer recipes/techniques?

Glancing at the hbd today after a long hiatus, I
see JonO (aka Burn Unit, GO GOPHERS, I'm from
Blaine, MN) asks about procedures to make 'higher
complexity' beers.  This reminded me of
"Sangamon's Principle," described in Neal
Stephenson's book "Zodiac," that essentially says
simple molecules are better, because you never
know what side effects more complicated compounds
will have.

Excerpt:

"Sangamon's Principle," I said. "The simpler the
molecule, the better the drug. So the best drug
is oxygen. Only two atoms. The second-best,
nitrous oxide - a mere three atoms. The
third-best, ethanol - nine. Past that, you're
talking lots of atoms."
"So?"
"Atoms are like people. Get lots of them
together, never know what they'll do."

But, we're making beer, not drugs.

As far as grain additions go, others will have
more information, I'm sure, but I think you'll
need to make sure you've got plenty of barley
malt enzymes around, which may lead you to use
6-row malt as opposed to 2-row - "6-row barley is
richer in enzymes which are important when large
amount of adjuncts are being used" (Kirk-Othmer
Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, Beer).  

During a mash, higher temperatures lead to more
complex carbohydrates while lower temperatures
lead to the more fermentable maltose.

"alpha-amylase is resistant to comparatively high
temperature; its temperature optimum in the mash
is 70 deg-C (158 deg-F) and it is destroyed at 80
deg-C (176 deg-F).  In the mash, it functions
best at pH 5.8.  Beta-amylase is destroyed at 75
deg-C (167 deg-F) and in the mash its optimum
operating temperature is 60-65 deg-C (140 - 149
deg-F) and optimum pH is 5.4.  Consequently, the
higher the temperature of the mash, the more
dextrin is formed.  Long retention at 60-65
deg-C, on the other hand, gives a wort rich in
maltose.  In this way it is possible to regulate
the fermentability of the wort since maltose is
easily fermentable and dextrin is not."
(Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology,
Beer). 

I've made ginger-honey beer. I threw several
ounces of grated ginder root in at the beginning
of the boil in hop bags.  Near the end of the
boil, right before chilling, I added a couple
pounds of honey (malt:honey = 1:1).  The stuff
was not bad, and reminescent of the belgian
triple I'd made (?).

I still have a bag full of chili peppers in the
freezer after I chickened out of making a chili
beer.

I don't know why, but I've always wanted to make
a potato beer.

If you are looking for some truly wacky recipes
and an interesting read, (and Chuck this is for
you too) try Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The
Secrets of Ancient Fermentation by Stephen Harrod
Buhner 

Matt in Cincinnati



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:22:54 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: burner stand question

Hey all,

I'm taking about 10 days off starting Monday (changing jobs) and thought 
that it would be a good time to finally build a rig for my brew system. 
 I'm looking for good designs out there which utilize the three-kettle 
(HLT, mash tun, boiler), two-tier approach.  And I'm pretty well a moron 
when it comes to looking at something, then building it, so sites that 
have good foolproof instructions would be greatly appreciated.  I have 
all of the bells and whistles of the semi-pro brewer (pump, CFC, QDs, 
converted keg setup) and just need an easy way to put it all together. 
 Oh...one other thing...no welding.  I don't know how and am too cheap 
to pay someone.

Cheers!
marc

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:29:10 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Wyeast Roselaere blend

I am testing out some oud bruin recipes and used the Wyeast Roselaere 
blend to ferment the first one.  The first thing I noticed was that 
fermentation took several days to start, even from a swelled XL pack. 
 Guessing that the bacteria/yeast mix was settling in.  Fermentation was 
slow and steady and looks about done now, with a gravity drop from 1.052 
to 1.012.  I do see some activity in the airlock and know that if 
there's a lactobacillus in the culture, that bugger will continue to 
feed.  Been about three weeks from the brew date.

I was a little surprised...OK...disappointed to taste the beer when I 
racked.  Not really sour, not really characteristic of the oud bruins 
I've had on both sides of the pond.  Has anyone brewed with this culture 
before?  Does it get more sour?  Is this something that should sit on 
the lees as it ages for two, four, six months?

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
OTD site :  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info:  http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/





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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:36:16 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Carbonate precipitation

I just want to confirm something with the water experts here. Am I
correct in assuming that the wort boil will also result in calcium
carbonate precipitation, resulting in a reduction in both in the final
beer, or does this reaction only occur when plain old water is boiled?

Thanks
Brian


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:48:40 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: hard cider recipe

So the digest seems slow and I'm still getting used to reading it the 
day after...

Thought I'd repost a very easy hard cider recipe that I've started to 
make every six months or so.  I like to have it to counterbalance the 
beers, and it's very refreshing during the warm months to come.  I make 
this in three gallon batches basically because I have a three gallon keg 
I like to use for either very strong beers or cider.  Just tweaked the 
recipe a bit from something I posted in January.

HARD CIDER/CYSER (3 gallons)
3 gallons unpasteurized apple cider (I use Whole Foods Gravestein)
2lbs honey
Safale S-04 dry yeast

Ferment two gallons of cider completely.  Dissolve honey in a quart of 
water and add to fermenter.  When fermentation is complete, rack into 
secondary fermenter with the remaining gallon of unfermented cider.  Add 
two Campden tablets to the secondary to stop any further fermentation. 
 Rack into keg and serve.

Low alcohol and fresh apple taste.  Yummy.

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:46:53 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Nutritional Beers

Brewsters:

JonO is thinking about brewing beers from different non-traditional
constituents used before RHG and asks for some ideas, while fearing some sort
of flaming.

No flames here.  The HBD is all about experimentation.  I mean if you can put
chili in beer, you can put in anything - Right SteveA?

Why not just substitute various non-traditional components as adjuncts.  I'd
start with the legume field.  Cook up some white beans to soft but not
squishy, briefly mash them up (physically) in a food processor and incorporate
them in the mash.  The high protein may cause cloudiness so I suspect a
protein step is in order as an improvement. Later some black turtle beans are
in order for your stouts. And of course don't forget the chili when you
substitute pinto beans. In this case, I'd try a little cilantro in the hop
back also.

For more advanced work legumes easily sprout and should be easy to malt.

As far as those non-fermentable carbs go, your body can use most of them, so
they should be counted, but the ones fermented by bacteria in the lower tract
do cause some problems as you know.  I also suspect these bean beers will have
a higher non-fermentable carb content with the anticipated consequences.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:49:18 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Berliner Weisse

In Digest 4423, I mentioned that I had made two batches of Berliner Weisse 
and promised to report on their progress. (long post follows)

Well, I have tasted them twice and so this seems like a good time to do 
so. But first I'll post the details of each batch:

The batches each used 3 pounds of wheat malt, 3 pounds of pale malt, .5 oz 
of whole Saaz hops (6.9% alpha acids), a Wyeast tube of Lactobacillus 
delbruckii, a 1 quart starter of White Labs German ale/Kolsch yeast, and 1 
cup corn sugar boiled 5 min in 2 cups water (for priming).

The first batch boiled the hops in the sparge water for an hour. After the 
90-minute mash (at 153F), I mashed out with 9 quarts of the 192F hops tea 
(with most of the hops pieces) and let the mash sit for 10 min. I used the 
remaining hops tea (hops and all) to sparge the mash. I collected around 
5.5 gallons of wort and brought it to a boil. I then covered and cooled 
it. I poured it into the fermenter. The Lactobacillus tube was added. 
After five days I pitched the yeast culture. After another five days, I 
racked to a secondary (5gal carboy). The secondary was 117 days long. I 
then bottled the beer with the priming sugar.

The second batch used more conventional techniques: I mashed the grains 
for 90 min (at 153F), mashed out with 10 quarts 177F water, sparged with 
165F water, and collected 6.5 gallons of wort. The wort and hops were 
boiled for 60 min. The wort was cooled, poured into the primary and 
inoculated with Lactobacillus. After 5 days, the yeast culture was 
pitched. After five days more, the beer was racked to secondary, where it 
stayed for 121 days. I then bottled it with the priming sugar.

At the first tasting, Batch 1 had been in the bottle for 2.0 months; Batch 
2, for 1.5 months. My tasting notes read:
	Batch 1: gold-yellow in color, perfect clarity, dense white head that 
settled to lace quickly. Aroma is sour, fruit, funky. decently large/good 
mouthfeel. Carbonation is high, apparent. Taste is funky, /sour/, sour 
milk, hint of fruitiness, hint of spice. May also be a tad bready. Finish 
is sour, dry, long. Bitterness is not obvious; there might be some in the 
finish but I'm not sure.
	Batch 2: yellow-gold (I think darker than Batch 1), perfectly clear, 
white head that settled quickly. Aroma is sour, barely fruity/floral. 
Mouthfeel is ok, fairly thin (but thicker than Batch 1). Carbonation is 
high, apparent. Taste is sour, sour milk, caramel, hint of spice, fruity, 
wheat/tart. Finish is sour, dry, long, and has detectable bitterness.

At the first tasting, I noted also that Batch 1 seemed more sour/lactic 
and fruity while Batch 2 had more biterness, spiciness, and caramel. Both 
were very sour but I prefered Batch 1 at that tasting.

Nine days later I did a second tasting of both beers. This time though I 
had my wife remove the crown caps so that I could not tell which beer I 
was getting. I poured and tasted and after I made my notes, I asked which 
had been which. My notes are:
	Batch 1: short-lived white head, gold, perfect clarity. Aroma is sour, 
lactic, floral, fruity. Taste is bready, lactic, sour, funky, wheaty, hint 
of caramel. Finish is dry. Carbonation is good, obvious.
	Batch 2: short-lived white head, yellow-gold, perfect clarity. Aroma is 
fruity, funky, lightly sour/lactic. Taste is fruity, sour, lactic, a hint 
nutty, and a little bread. Finish is dry, sour, fruity. Carbonation is 
good, obvious.
	I also noted: Batch 1 is more sour and obviously sharp. Batch 2 was my 
favorite because the tastes seemed cleaner, more melded, less obviously 
sour. Mouthfeel of 1 just slightly thicker/fuller than that of 2.

Take whatever conclusions you want from my notes, but I'd say that there 
are not night-and-day differences between these beers so anyone who wants 
to use "ordinary" techniques of mashing, sparging, and boiling to produce 
Berliner weisse can do so (if they are willing to deal with 
Lactobacillus). I find both beers interesting and quite drinkable.

I will continue to taste these batches as they age and report back on any 
changes.

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:27:51 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced Brewing Texts


Chuck Brandt is wondering which advanced homebrew/probrew books to buy.  
Seeing as I find myself amassing a brewing library, I thought I might chime 
in.

Of the ones Chuck listed, I've got de Clerck's "A Textbook of Brewing".  
This book is a good primer covering all topics from barley in the field to 
filling the bottle.  It was written in the 1950s and I've found the basic 
info to be quite good but the technology and language a little out of date.  
It's worth having for history sake, as de Clerck was an authority on brewing 
in his time and his influence is still felt (or tasted) today, especially in 
belgian brewing.

I also have "Technology Malting and Brewing" by Wolfgang Kunze, which I 
highly recommend.   The info is much more recent than de Clerck, it's easier 
reading and there are plenty of excellent illustrations and photos.  This is 
would be a good book for homebrewers who want an in-depth understanding of 
brewing.  It does cover some topics like mass bottling and filtering, which 
are (currently) not used in homebrewing.

Both Kunze and de Clerck are recommended texts by Siebel for their diploma 
course.  I found the Kunze book especially helpful.

If you're interested in the microbiological side you might look at "Brewing 
Microbiology" by Priest and Campbell.  It covers everything from yeast 
metabolism to most of the contaminating microorganisms.  Most useful are the 
sections on rapid detection methods and analysis.

I've heard that "Malting and Brewing Science" vols I & II  by Briggs, Hough 
et.al. are quite good, but have yet to see them.  They also appear to be the 
most pricey of the pro-brew books at about $170 each.

I don't know much about the books offered by the MBAA, but I'm sure they're 
fine books.  "The Practical Brewer" appears to have the same content of the 
books listed above, however Stephen Holle's  "A Handbook of Basic Brewing 
Calculations" seems likely to be useful to homebrewers.


Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:50:27 -0900
From: stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com
Subject: Pets with beer-related names

I just heard from some friends of mine that they
have a new puppy that is mostly black, with a some
of tan and bit stoutish some they named her
Guinness. I also know somebody with an iguana named
Spat as in Spaten. This past Fall my wife and I
adopted a stray cat which we named Fuggles.

I'm curious as to how many people out there have
pets (or children, for that matter) with
beer-related names.

I realize that this is a bit off topic with respect
to homebrew but it could be fun.

Cheers,

Scott Stihler
Fairbanks, Alaska



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