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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Beer related pet names ("Robert and Susan Rigg")
  Batch Sparge techniques ("Parker Dutro")
  Re: Advanced Brewing Texts (Wes Smith)
  Roselare yeast ("jens maudal")
  Beery pets... (Pat Babcock)
  Re: hard cider recipe (Jeff Renner)
  Wyeast Roselaere blend (Bjoern.Thegeby)
  Beer names (Lee Ellman)
  Re:Pets with beer-related names (Kevin Brown)
  Re: Pets with beer-related names (NO Spam)
  recirculating Wit mash (Mark Beck)
  RE: Wyeast Roselaere blend (MOREY Dan)
  Re: Roselaere Blend (Robert Sandefer)
  Re: Health Beer (Robert Sandefer)
  Re: Carbonate precipitation ("Martin Brungard")
  RE: Pets with beer-related names ("Leonard, Phil")
  malt specs for Specialized Malting & Roasting...?? ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  New Online Competition Report System (Ed Westemeier)
  BJCP Northeast Region Election (Ed Westemeier)
  Re: Health Beer (Aaron Gates)
  Re:Wyeast Roselaere blend ("Raj B. Apte")
  hop rhizomes in europe (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fernando_Gon=E7alves?=)
  Health beers ("The Mad Brewer")


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:20:51 -0800
From: "Robert and Susan Rigg" <rsrigg at turbonet.com>
Subject: Beer related pet names

Funny you should ask...
I have a cat who 8 years ago as a kitten jumped, leaped, and bounced
everywhere he went. As I had just started brewing a few months earlier, his
name became "Hops" or sometimes "Hoppy".
~Rob~

- ----I'm curious as to how many people out there have
pets (or children, for that matter) with
beer-related names.-----



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:56:34 -0800
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: Batch Sparge techniques

I have recently been batch sparging and am impressed with the results
and ease of the process.  I use a fairly large SS mash tun, and wonder
about a change in the procedure.  Mash in as usual, but instead of
draining the tun and adding the second hit of sparge water I thought it
might work well to add the second measured amount of water at the
pre-destined temp to bring everything up to mash-out temps and drain the
whole thing in one fell swoop.  This would avoid the grain bed getting
"gummy" after the first drain and would allow me to re-circulate only
once before draining instead of twice, one before the first drain and
one before the second.  This may help keep clearer wort and less tannin
extraction.  Are there any reasons that this would be a BAD idea?  Or,
perhaps, does anyone here batch sparge this way?  I appreciate help.

Parker
Portland, Oregon 




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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:33:04 +1100
From: Wes Smith <wsmith at rslcom.net.au>
Subject: Re: Advanced Brewing Texts

"Malting and Brewing Science" 2nd edition was published some 20 years ago 
and has not been updated apparently due to the death of James Hough and the 
closure of the British School of Malting and Brewing. Dennis Briggs, one of 
the original authors has however, published "Malts and Malting" under his 
own name and this is intended to be an "update" to volume 1 of "Malting and 
Brewing Science". I recently bought a copy through Amazon (ISBN 0 412 29800 
7) and would thoroughly recommend it to VERY advanced home brewers keen to 
delve into the mysteries of malting. It concentrates on malts and malting 
as the title indicates and is both theoretical and practical (a rare mix!)

I still think however, that Kunze is the best buy for serious home and 
micro brewers as the presentation and content is more applicable to day to 
day brewing.

Wes.

>I've heard that "Malting and Brewing Science" vols I & II  by Briggs, Hough
>et.al. are quite good, but have yet to see them.  They also appear to be the
>most pricey of the pro-brew books at about $170 each.




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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:34:05 +0100
From: "jens maudal" <jens.maudal at start.no>
Subject: Roselare yeast

Marc Sedam ask about the Wyeast Rosewlare strain.

I made a belgian sour with this yeast
some months ago and i experianced the
same dissapointment as you, the beer does
not taste at all sour but has a strong taste
of the old horse like you have in the orval
but without the souerness to compensate.

The beer has now aged 3 months but has
not changed significantly in taste.

So far this has been a rather dissapointing
yeast.
Jens

> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:29:10 -0500
> From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
> Subject: Wyeast Roselaere blend
> 
> I am testing out some oud bruin recipes and used the Wyeast Roselaere 
> blend to ferment the first one.  The first thing I noticed was that 
> fermentation took several days to start, even from a swelled XL pack. 
>  Guessing that the bacteria/yeast mix was settling in.  Fermentation was 
> slow and steady and looks about done now, with a gravity drop from 1.052 
> to 1.012.  I do see some activity in the airlock and know that if 
> there's a lactobacillus in the culture, that bugger will continue to 
> feed.  Been about three weeks from the brew date.
> 
> I was a little surprised...OK...disappointed to taste the beer when I 
> racked.  Not really sour, not really characteristic of the oud bruins 
> I've had on both sides of the pond.  Has anyone brewed with this culture 
> before?  Does it get more sour?  Is this something that should sit on 
> the lees as it ages for two, four, six months?
> 
> - -- 
> 
> Marc Sedam
> Associate Director
> Office of Technology Development
> The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
> 308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
> Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105
> 




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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:29:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Beery pets...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I have a blond mutt we call Samuel Adams. Strange, because I
usually name my dogs for composers.

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:54:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: hard cider recipe

Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> wrote:

>When fermentation is complete, rack into secondary fermenter with 
>the remaining gallon of unfermented cider.  Add two Campden tablets 
>to the secondary to stop any further fermentation.

I can't argue with success, but I think that using potassium sorbate 
rather than Campden might be more reliable and would avoid SO2, which 
might cause asthmatics problems.  On the other hand, SO2 will also 
avoid oxidation and keep it fresh tasting.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:06:34 +0100
From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int
Subject: Wyeast Roselaere blend

Marc Sedam comments:

"I was a little surprised...OK...disappointed to taste the 
beer when I racked. Not really sour, not really characteristic 
of the oud bruins I've had on both sides of the pond." 

The character in the red Flanders beers like Rodenbach comes
mainly from Brettanomyces. Just give it time.Brett will slowly
but steadily munch through sugars, dextrins, starches, cellulose, 
glass and your floor;-)

More seriously, it truly can ferment matter we normally consider
unfermentables. It does this slowly, but can over time raise the 
alcohol and the CO2 level. As you are probably not going to cellar 
it for a few years, it will not matter, but I had a case of kriek
that could only be opened under water.... Leave it for 3 months and
taste again. You are going to be pleasantly surprised.

Cheers
Bjorn T
(five miles from Lembeek)



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:30:48 -0500
From: Lee Ellman <lee.ellman at cityofyonkers.com>
Subject: Beer names

Long before I started brewing, and at a time in my life that
I hardly drank beer at all, we named son #2 Samuel Adam.  
It truly had nothing to do with the beer.  He was due about the 
4th of July and we were casting about for names.  A friend 
told me about their Uncle Sam (...born on the 4th of July...I'm a Yankee
Doodle
Dandy...) and we got warm to the idea.  Needed a middle name and 
yeah I suppose the beer name came to mind but it really was a matter 
it sounding good with the first name.

We have told him that we have cursed him to being called "six pack"
or some such in college but as a 7 yr. old he just laughs and tells me "Dad
you are so funny!"  Oh, and no interest in brewing or drinking beer at 
all.



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:00:20 -0400
From: Kevin Brown <kbrown at uvi.edu>
Subject: Re:Pets with beer-related names

Greetings,
My wife named our dog Pivo and I have a friend who named his dog Bock.
It will be interesting to see how many home brewers use brew related names.

Na zdravi,

Kevin St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands 



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:31:31 -0500
From: NO Spam <nospam02 at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Pets with beer-related names


My store cat, Maris Otter, just died on me
last August.  She was the best cat I ever had.
I really miss her.

Bill



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:47:06 -0800
From: Mark Beck <beckmk at whitman.edu>
Subject: recirculating Wit mash

Hello all,

         I just bought a pump, and am new to recirculating my mash (done 
one batch of Ordinary Bitter so far). For my next batch I'm planning to 
make a Wit beer with a malt bill of 55% Pilsner and 45% soft white Walla 
Walla winter wheat.  I plan to use a protein rest at around 124 deg., and a 
saccharification rest at around 150 deg.  Because of the high percentage of 
unmalted wheat, I'm terrified of a stuck mash.

         Do I need to add rice hulls or something to ensure good 
lautering?  Am I more likely to get a stuck mash during the protein rest or 
the saccharification rest?  Do I even need to bother recirculating during 
the protein rest?  Are my worries just plain unfounded?

         Any suggestions appreciated.

         Mark
         Walla Walla, WA



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:09:58 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: RE: Wyeast Roselaere blend

> I was a little surprised...OK...disappointed to taste the beer when
> I racked.  Not really sour, not really characteristic of the oud 
> bruins I've had on both sides of the pond.  Has anyone brewed with 
> this culture before?  Does it get more sour?  Is this something that 
> should sit on the lees as it ages for two, four, six months?

Last July, after NHC 2003, I attempted this style.  I couldn't find much
information so I started with a grain bill similar to a dubbel, perhaps a
bit more special B (I don't have my brew records with me).  I built up a one
quart starter from the smack pack and used this to inoculate the wort.  The
starter had a definite sour aroma.  Fermentation began quickly and was
vigorous.  In July, I typically see high 60s to low 70s for fermentation
temperatures.  In general, I have found all the Belgian yeasts to slow down
significantly when temperatures approach the low 60's.  Perhaps this
explains your slow start.  About a week later, I transferred to secondary
with 1/4 lb of oak chips.  Wasn't real sour tasting when I transferred it.
The secondary is a plastic bucket that I have dedicated for Lambic style and
other sour ales.  It is still in secondary.  I'll probably bottle it around
May.  As for the appearance, it is similar to the Lambic style I brewed last
year with the Wyeast Lambic blend.  There is a fuzzy scum like layer over
the top of the beer.  The aroma is sour, but not nearly as powerful as the
Lambic from the previous year.  I haven't sampled it since the first
transfer, but I am looking forward to doing so.

I definitely believe this style needs to age on the lees.  I think 9 months
is a good starting point.

Cheers,

Dan Morey
Club BABBLE  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi






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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:41:58 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: Roselaere Blend

While I haven't used the blend myself, everything I've read about oud 
bruins suggests that a lengthy aging is necessary to develop the acidity 
(and esters) of the style.

The best article about old brown production I have seen is "Getting Good 
and Sour: Conditioning Wood Barrels for Sour Beer Production" by Jeff 
Sparrow (Zymurgy Vol. 25 No. 5 Sept/Oct 2002). This article states that a 
two-year secondary is used at New Belgium Brewery and in the production of 
La Folie. It also states that to prevent autolysis flavors the yeast is 
removed from the beer prior to entering the aging barrels.

Lit it sit, Marc.

Robert Sandefer
ARlington, VA


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:53:42 -0500
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Re: Health Beer

I am not a nutritionist (though I've been forced to have plenty of 
experience with the field) and I know this is off-topic, but...

I'd like to point out that no, one ingredient/food (excepting poisons) is 
healthy or unhealthy. Diets (i.e., the total sum of material ingested) can 
be healthy or unhealthy (and better terms would be balanced or unbalanced).

Even "bad" foods (e.g., ice cream, candy, butter) can be used in a healthy 
diet. The key is balance and moderation.

So, experiment with what you want in your beer. That's part of the fun, 
but don't worry about how healthy it is. (That depends on what else you've 
been eating.)

Getting down off my soap box,
Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:21:05 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Carbonate precipitation

Brian asked if calcium precipitates from wort like it does when plain water 
is boiled.  The short answer is no.  The pH of the liquid is an important 
factor in precipitation chemistry.

In the case of plain water, the pH can be relatively alkaline (pH > 7).  
Some water can be acidic, but it usually doesn't have a carbonate hardness 
issue.  The presence of bicarbonate or carbonate in water is always 
coincident with a pH of 7.5 or higher.  There are a couple of ways that 
calcium can be precipitated.  The most common are boiling and lime 
treatment.  During boiling of plain water, the CO2 is driven out of solution 
and the pH increases.  Adding lime also increases the water's pH.  In both 
cases, the solubility limit for the calcium can be exceeded and a portion of 
the calcium and accompanying carbonate species are precipitated out of 
solution as chalk (calcium carbonate).

In wort, the pH is usually around 5 to 5.7. The soluability of calcium in 
wort is maintained throughout the boil.  There is no loss of calcium during 
a wort boil.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:35:20 -0600
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard at dsionline.com>
Subject: RE: Pets with beer-related names

Scott Stihler wants to know about pets/kids with beer-related names.

My dog's name is Stout.  He is a Husky/Shepard mix and he'll be glad to share a 
glass of beer with you.

Philip
[612 251,4 AR] Overland Park, KS


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:06:57 -0800
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: malt specs for Specialized Malting & Roasting...??

I've just received a few 88# bags of malt from a friend, from the now 
defunct Specialized Malting & Roasting Company of Tottenham, Ontario.  The 
tags read Organic Pale Malt, Organic Cara-Malt 30 L and Organic Caramel Malt 
60 L.

The pale malt appears to be standard two row pale.    The Crystal 60 appears 
to be standard medium/dark crystal malt.  My question lies with the 
Cara-Malt 30L....Does anyone know if this is a Munich/Vienna with sufficient 
enzymes to convert itself (and appropriate for a Vienna/Marzen in as much as 
100% of the grist) or is this an enzymatically "dead" light crystal that 
should be limited to <20% to keep unfermentables within reasonable levels??

Any info on diastatic power, or better yet a source for full malt specs 
would be much appreciated.  The malt may be as much as three years old, 
which raises its own set of issues, but appears to be well stored and in 
good condition.


Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at 1918 miles, 298 degrees Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:49:24 -0500
From: Ed Westemeier <hopfen at malz.com>
Subject: New Online Competition Report System

On behalf of the BJCP, I'm happy to announce that we now have a fully
electronic system through which competition organizers can submit their
reports via their web browser.

The intention has always been to eventually eliminate the stubby pencil
approach and integrate these reports into our database with as little
manual effort as possible.

Thanks to the skills of Jamil Zainasheff and Gordon Strong, we're now
just about there.

You'll find a new link on the BJCP home page (www.bjcp.org) that
competition organizers can use to submit their reports directly, in
three steps:

First, enter the competition info (number of entries, flights, days, and
dates).

Second, enter the data for judges, stewards, and staff.

Third, review the information you entered, confirm it, and send it.

We hope that the majority (if not all) of future competitions will be
able to enter their reports this way.

I never cease to marvel at the talent we have within our ranks.

Ed Westemeier
BJCP Communication Director
communication_director at bjcp.org


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:51:05 -0500
From: Ed Westemeier <hopfen at malz.com>
Subject: BJCP Northeast Region Election

The only contested opening this year on the BJCP Board of Directors is
in the Northeast region. All current BJCP judges in that region are
asked to vote electronically before May 4th.

The candidates are Peter Garofalo and Jay Hersh. Each has submitted a
campaign statement, and you can read them at our website. There is a new
link on the BJCP home page (www.bjcp.org) that will take you to
information about the election.

In an effort to streamline things, we are using electronic notification
in addition to online voting, completely eliminating the paperwork. We
are asking everyone who reads this to help spread the word, and ask all
the judges you know in the region to go to the website, read the
candidate statements, and vote.

At some point in the next week or two, we will also send an individual
email reminder to every judge in the Northeast region for whom we have
an email address on file. This slight delay is to give you a chance to
check your record and make sure we have a current email address for you.

Thanks to the remarkable skill of Jamil Zainasheff and Gordon Strong, we
will be using our new online voting system, which provides security,
anonymity, and a basic audit trail. Your vote will be recorded (once
only) from the website. The system should be available today, but since
you have until May 4th to vote, please just return later if you have a
problem. After all, any new system can have glitches.

Just a reminder: this is ONLY for judges in the Northeast region.

Ed Westemeier
BJCP Communication Director
communication_director at bjcp.org


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:03:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Aaron Gates <aaronlgates at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Health Beer

Re: Health Beer

Ok, I am now inspired to try out some herbal
experimentation. Being a Doctor of Pharmacy and
Pharmacist I have been wanting to do some type of
medicinal beer.... but crushing up some tablets of
tylenol or excedrin for a 'migraine relief beer'just
sounded... well... a bad idea.... somehow. Plus, I
focused on herbal remedies in my doctoral studies and
it is such an alluring and satisfying thing to be your
own physician.

Now, I am considering using willow bark for a 'St.
Joseph's Ale'. Figure enough to impart 81mg of
salicylates per 12 oz, a beer a day would satisfy
recommended daily intake of aspirin for cardiovascular
health, etc. Salicylates(Aspirin) also reduce fever,
relieve pain, prevent migraine headache, aid in
reducing the onset of some cancers, reduce the 
frequency of heart attack and stroke, relieve
inflammation, and the list goes on. 

One problem.... salicylic acid tastes simply awful.
One needs only chew an aspirin tablet up to discover
this.... maybe in baby aspirin doses(81mg) the flavor
would be masked well enough in a strong ale...perhaps
even balance it out with desireable bittering...

Another issue... any pathways in yeast metabolism to
interfere with yeast growth/proliferation present
here? Also, I don't believe that it will affect pH too
much.... have to do the math. 

One of the issues with willow bark is it is tannin
rich, theoretically able to cause health issues... but
not reported to date. Could be taken care of in part
with a good cold break if boiled with the wort... but
some of the actives are heat labile.... might want to
steep with aroma hops.... not sure. Might impact
flavor quite a bit.

Other salicylate containing herbs include aspen bark,
black cohosh(great for menopausal symptoms), poplar,
sweet birch, and wintergreen. Wintergreen seems like a
fun option..... not sure on the salicylate
concentration.... 

Any ideas/experience with this type of
experimentation?

What fun.


Aaron 


P.S.

Other fun projects could be mood altering and sedative
type herbs such as Valerian root, etc. Forget
antidepressants and sedative/hypnotics.... beer will
do just fine thank you.

Yes I live in Humboldt County and yes Humboldt Brewing
Company makes a hemp ale..... he he..... not too
kosher for a pharmacist though! Could make a good
'Glaucoma Relief' beer! Would you need the
'medical-marijuana card' to buy it at the store?



"So I commend the enjoyment of life, because nothing
is better for a man under the sun than to eat and
drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany him in his
work all the days of the life God has given him under
the sun." Ecclesiastes 8:15



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:56:44 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Wyeast Roselaere blend

Marc,

I did a batch a month ago that also failed to start
quickly. But after 24 hours of no airlock activity I
pitched some dry yeast over it. I complained to Wyeast
and they said it should start more-or-less normally.
They also said they had no other reports of sluggish
starts. Please report this to them--they have a
quality control problem.

In my experience, it takes six months to get close to
the final sourness. I think Guinard's book shows this
as well. According to a Belgian brewer I spoke to,
lambic and flemish red are quite similar fermentations
except 1. lambic fermentation starts slower because of
the enterobacteria, 2. lambic fermentation continues
longer because of higher dextrins and more nutrition.
The nutrition difference comes because flemish is aged
in secondary, without lees, while lambic is aged in
primary, sur lees.

To encourage sourness, I also keep 2-3 L of beer
aside. Most of the secondary fermentation is in a wood
cask. But the 2-3 litres is in a mason jar covered
with cloth (to keep flies out). This oxidized beer
gets very very sour (more acetic than lactic) and is
useful for blending. Also, you get more sourness from
lighter OG. 1030-1055 will give lots of sourness. 1065
is balanced, and 1080 doesn't sour much in 12 months.

raj





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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:44:45 -0800
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fernando_Gon=E7alves?= <fmsg at sapo.pt>
Subject: hop rhizomes in europe

Hi brewers

I live in Portugal and would like to grown some hops. Does anyone knows a
hop rhizome supplier in Europe? The only suppliers I found in the web are
located in the USA and they cant send me the rhizomes because some
restrictions in sending live plants by mail.

Thnxs

Fernando



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:55:42 -0600
From: "The Mad Brewer" <seansgroups at mts.net>
Subject: Health beers

I suppose the request is for something that looks, smells and tastes like a
regular beer.  Sorry, can't help, except to note that higher mash
temperatures balanced by higher hop rates will drop the glycemic index a
touch.

For complexity, you want actual solids in there, which means African
traditional beers like pombe (a.k.a. opaque sorghum beer and lots of less PC
names you tend not to hear any more).  They approach alcoholic Berliner
porridge-weisse.

The beans suggestion isn't too far out.  LaPensee includes a Mumm-ale in his
book, which is equal parts barley malt, oat malt and beans.

The Australian government has been promoting awareness of the glycemic index
of foods.  Some google searching should turn up a table with beer in it.

Sean
Winnipeg



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